Pagan ,Salah or Namaaz the different positions.
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Peace be upon you Osulanya,
My understanding is that the inner submission we agree on, the outer submission would be the movements we make in our good deeds, whatever they might be. It would be non beneficial for a person to be able to "control" thier body in order to make it bow down on the ground, but cannot control it to make the hand reach into the pocket and give.
I can understand what you mean by a moving meditation, but I don't see the example in THIS reading of that, instead I see indication that we are not to prostrate to the sun or moon (physical prostration at day or night is to the moon), but instead to prostrate to the God who created them (within).
What are your thoughts on that?
As'Salaamu Alaykum Idolfree1,
The outer submission IS "all" of our movements when they are done in the "Presence" of Allah. That is why I can see nothing wrong with a person who chooses to "physically" prostrate if it, in fact, reinforces humility in their person. I have witnessed people who give to the homeless, yet they see themselves as better than the homeless, there is no humility in that. Their intellect says that it is altruistic to give, but their hearts are hardened towards the ones they are "using" so that they may feel altruistic. Sometimes we over-intellectualize, that is why we should also practice perceiving things with our heart, as it is a better organ of perception.
Al-Hadid 5716
Alam ya/ni lillaeena manoo an takhshaAAa quloobuhum liikri Allhi wam nazala mina alaqqi wal yakoonoo ka(a)llaeena ootoo alkitba min qablu fala AAalayhimu al-amadu faqasat quloobuhum wakatheerun minhum fsiqoon(a)
Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.
In recognizing the reality of Allah's Oneness I know that there are as many ways to demonstrate humility as there are people on this planet, some are internal and some are external, some are gradual and some are instantaneous. I think that what is important is that whatever methods we choose to employ we do so with the intention of serving Allah's "forever-now" manifestation of Hu's creation. I fear that sometimes in our exhuberance we become dangerous, we cannot allow ourselves to be the instigators of the "new Islamic dogma".
This is Allah's world, we are always blessed because we have been given the opportunity, through our gift of life, to "observe", "serve", and become annihilated in "servanthood". Towards Love!Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya -
Peace be upon you Osulanya,
(My aplogies, I have been spelling your name incorrectly and just noticed it)
The outer submission IS "all" of our movements when they are done in the "Presence" of Allah.
I disagree slightly, the outer submission is all our movements that serve the God's purpose. Putting up our middle finger at someone is not outer submission, nor is aggression(war). Only that outer movement that has PURPOSE in the God's path can be considered submission.
That is why I can see nothing wrong with a person who chooses to "physically" prostrate if it, in fact, reinforces humility in their person
Thats just it, humilty is something that is generated within, not outside, the outer world is the world of EFFECTS, we must realize humilty in the world of CAUSES, within. That is why we have millions of people physically bowing, but the EFFECTS of the outer world remain the same, even get worse. The answer is in the removing of Musa shoes, it is not a physical journey. All that we do physically is to prepare the body for optimal use (Qi Gong, running, swimming, eating healthy, herbs, ect) so that the vehicle of the real "I" can operate efficiently. And when we want to get closer to the SOURCE, we remain still. When Zachariah wanted a sign from the God, he told him not to talk for three days(external speech).
The traditional method of bowing down is a backward method, the flow should be from the God and continue otward to our manifestations, not from our physical movements going inward. We cannot get inward with physical movement, that is why we are only to maintain salaat while moving if we are in fear of an enemy.
I have witnessed people who give to the homeless, yet they see themselves as better than the homeless, there is no humility in that. Their intellect says that it is altruistic to give, but their hearts are hardened towards the ones they are "using" so that they may feel altruistic. Sometimes we over-intellectualize, that is why we should also practice perceiving things with our heart, as it is a better organ of perception.
I agree. They are doing outward acts withut the inner humility, the inside must come first then manifest outwardly.
Al-Hadid 5716
Alam ya/ni lillaeena manoo an takhshaAAa quloobuhum liikri Allhi wam nazala mina alaqqi wal yakoonoo ka(a)llaeena ootoo alkitba min qablu fala AAalayhimu al-amadu faqasat quloobuhum wakatheerun minhum fsiqoon(a)
Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.
It is indeed the time.
In recognizing the reality of Allah's Oneness I know that there are as many ways to demonstrate humility as there are people on this planet
Yes, there it is! DEMONSTRATE humilty. You have to bring forth humility THEN you can demonstrate it. Yes, there are many ways of demonstrating it, but the purpose of prostration is to bring forth humilty.
some are internal and some are external, some are gradual and some are instantaneous. I think that what is important is that whatever methods we choose to employ we do so with the intention of serving Allah's "forever-now" manifestation of Hu's creation. I fear that sometimes in our exhuberance we become dangerous, we cannot allow ourselves to be the instigators of the "new Islamic dogma".
This is Allah's world, we are always blessed because we have been given the opportunity, through our gift of life, to "observe", "serve", and become annihilated in "servanthood". Towards Love!Please concentrate on the direction, everything flows from the source on out. Humilty must be developed BEFORE it hits the physical level.
Please give me your thoughts on what I stated and thank you for your patience with me as we continue to discuss this.
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Peace be upon you Osulanya,
(My aplogies, I have been spelling your name incorrectly and just noticed it)
The outer submission IS "all" of our movements when they are done in the "Presence" of Allah.
I disagree slightly, the outer submission is all our movements that serve the God's purpose. Putting up our middle finger at someone is not outer submission, nor is aggression(war). Only that outer movement that has PURPOSE in the God's path can be considered submission.
That is why I can see nothing wrong with a person who chooses to "physically" prostrate if it, in fact, reinforces humility in their person
Thats just it, humilty is something that is generated within, not outside, the outer world is the world of EFFECTS, we must realize humilty in the world of CAUSES, within. That is why we have millions of people physically bowing, but the EFFECTS of the outer world remain the same, even get worse. The answer is in the removing of Musa shoes, it is not a physical journey. All that we do physically is to prepare the body for optimal use (Qi Gong, running, swimming, eating healthy, herbs, ect) so that the vehicle of the real "I" can operate efficiently. And when we want to get closer to the SOURCE, we remain still. When Zachariah wanted a sign from the God, he told him not to talk for three days(external speech).
The traditional method of bowing down is a backward method, the flow should be from the God and continue otward to our manifestations, not from our physical movements going inward. We cannot get inward with physical movement, that is why we are only to maintain salaat while moving if we are in fear of an enemy.
I have witnessed people who give to the homeless, yet they see themselves as better than the homeless, there is no humility in that. Their intellect says that it is altruistic to give, but their hearts are hardened towards the ones they are "using" so that they may feel altruistic. Sometimes we over-intellectualize, that is why we should also practice perceiving things with our heart, as it is a better organ of perception.
I agree. They are doing outward acts withut the inner humility, the inside must come first then manifest outwardly.
Al-Hadid 5716
Alam ya/ni lillaeena manoo an takhshaAAa quloobuhum liikri Allhi wam nazala mina alaqqi wal yakoonoo ka(a)llaeena ootoo alkitba min qablu fala AAalayhimu al-amadu faqasat quloobuhum wakatheerun minhum fsiqoon(a)
Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.
It is indeed the time.
In recognizing the reality of Allah's Oneness I know that there are as many ways to demonstrate humility as there are people on this planet
Yes, there it is! DEMONSTRATE humilty. You have to bring forth humility THEN you can demonstrate it. Yes, there are many ways of demonstrating it, but the purpose of prostration is to bring forth humilty.
some are internal and some are external, some are gradual and some are instantaneous. I think that what is important is that whatever methods we choose to employ we do so with the intention of serving Allah's "forever-now" manifestation of Hu's creation. I fear that sometimes in our exhuberance we become dangerous, we cannot allow ourselves to be the instigators of the "new Islamic dogma".
This is Allah's world, we are always blessed because we have been given the opportunity, through our gift of life, to "observe", "serve", and become annihilated in "servanthood". Towards Love!Please concentrate on the direction, everything flows from the source on out. Humilty must be developed BEFORE it hits the physical level.
Please give me your thoughts on what I stated and thank you for your patience with me as we continue to discuss this.
As'Salaamu Alaykum Idolfree1,
During our discussion I have been referring to the writings of Ibn Arabi because I have been studying his evening and morning prayers for the seven days of the week. In the Wednesday Eve prayer he says,
"O my Master, peace be upon You, You are my support. For You it is the same whether I address You inwardly or outwardly, for You hear my call and answer my prayer. You have banished my darkness with Your Light. You have brought my lifeless body to life with Your Spirit. You are my Lord my hearing, my seeing, my heart are in Your Hand. You have taken possession of all of me. You have conferred eminence upon my lowliness; You have elevated my rank; You have raised high my remembrance."
My daughter used to come to me and say, "Daddy, I'm hungry", and I would say to her, "Hi Hungry, my name is Thirsty." She would always say, "Daaaady, You know what I mean", and I would say, "Yes, I do, but you are not your body, so don't identify yourself as such" It took her a minute, but she got it. I had a near fatal car crash, was literally out of my body for almost two months, so I have had personal experience of my essential self, independent of a physical body. My point is that we have a tendency to orient our "being" as this flesh, but it is just a vehicle. It is our consciousness that drives the vehicle, so any outward prostration must begin with a conscious volition. That is why I said it is the intention that counts, as well as the "Presence" of Allah. A person living in the Presence of Allah would not use a profane gesture (the middle finger). It is the awareness we maintain that makes our physical movements humble. Many individuals may find the act of physical prostration a means of reinforcing and maintaining their inner humility. It is very possible to pay too much attention to the vehicle, not enough to the condition of the driver (ie. someone who washes their car religiously, then drives drunk).
You are absolutely right, in that we must focus make sure that our consciousness or mental faculties are in order if we are to properly use this vehicle we call a body, but if our minds are focused properly then any actions of our body will necessarilty be in tune.
I don't think we are actually in disagreement. I think we are looking at the same problem from different angles, answering the problem from our respective angles.
Shukran for your insights. There is no need to Thank me for my patience, discussions like this are why I joined Freeminds. We are mirrors for each other, we could all use a little help polishing ourselves DMa'Salaam,
Olusanya -
Peace be upon you Olusanya,
That story you gave of your personal experiences was very enlightening. I also do the same with my daughter regarding helping her understand that she is not her body, but that her body is the lowest exstension of the true "self", a vehicle.
Your out of body story was also very enlightening. It is certainly a different thing to KNOW, than to only hear about something. I am really just starting to understand this "stillness of mind" in order to experience the true "self", so I cant say I KNOW just yet, anyway I am rambling D Thank you for sharing those stories.
You are right, I don't think we are really disagreeing. But I do ask you to continue to ponder on the reason why many "FEEL" they are more humble when prostrate. Could it be that they have been conditioned to think this way from birth? Just as a christian will say they can just 'feel" Jesus presence and know that he is Lord (The God is high above what they associate with Him/Her).
In any case, thanks again for the discussion.
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Peace be upon you Olusanya,
That story you gave of your personal experiences was very enlightening. I also do the same with my daughter regarding helping her understand that she is not her body, but that her body is the lowest exstension of the true "self", a vehicle.
Your out of body story was also very enlightening. It is certainly a different thing to KNOW, than to only hear about something. I am really just starting to understand this "stillness of mind" in order to experience the true "self", so I cant say I KNOW just yet, anyway I am rambling Thank you for sharing those stories.
You are right, I don't think we are really disagreeing. But I do ask you to continue to ponder on the reason why many "FEEL" they are more humble when prostrate. Could it be that they have been conditioned to think this way from birth? Just as a christian will say they can just 'feel" Jesus presence and know that he is Lord (The God is high above what they associate with Him/Her).
In any case, thanks again for the discussion.
As'Salaamu Alaykum Idolfree1,
Allahu Alkbar!
Check out what I read today, shortly before reading your last post
"Men may be divided into two groups. The first travel a way they know whose destination they know, which is their Straight Path. The second group travel a way they do not know and of whose destination they are unaware, which is equally the Straight Path. The gnostic calls on Allah with spiritual perception, while he who is not a gnostic calls on Hu in ignorance and bound by tradition."
also
"So, beware lest you restrict yourself to a particular tenet and so deny any other tenet , for you would forfeit much good, indeed you would forfeit the true knowledge of what is . Therefore be completely and utterly receptive to all doctrinal forms, for Allah, Most High, is too All-embracing and Great to be confined within one creed rather than another, for Hu has said, Wheresoever you turn, there is the face of Allah, without mentioning any particular direction. Hu states that there is the face of Allah, the face of a thing being its reality.
Ibn Al-'Arabi - Fusus al-hikam or Bezels of Wisdom
There is only one truth but because we are individuals the aspects we perceive of this truth will vary according to the different conditions of our individual being.
An-Nahl 169
WaAAal Allhi qadu a(l)ssabeeli waminh j-irun walaw sha lahadkum ajmaAAeen(a)
It is Allah who indicates to you the path to tread, the path of truth guiding into all truth with some deviating from righteousness. If Allah had willed, Hu could have guided you all to the one path leading directly to Hu.
Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya -
Peace,
If Allah had willed, Hu could have guided you all to the one path leading directly to Hu.
I guess I'm lost for knowing what "Hu" means?
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Peace,
If Allah had willed, Hu could have guided you all to the one path leading directly to Hu.
I guess I'm lost for knowing what "Hu" means?
As'Salaamu Alaykum Danish,
Hu is the personal pronoun for Allah used in the Qur'an. It is usually translated as He or Him, However, Allah is above gender, so I choose to use Hu instead of translating it to He or Him.
Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya -
Sorry wrong page.