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  1. Home
  2. Critical Examination of Islam
  3. Quranic Divinity
  4. One contradiction or a seeming contradiction thats holding me back

One contradiction or a seeming contradiction thats holding me back

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Quranic Divinity
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  • E Offline
    E Offline
    Ervin
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Peace everyone.

    If you go to sceptics annotated Quran there is a question which is Does muhammad ask for a fee. So because of that I can't accept the Quran.

    Can someone give me a good explanation of it so that I can have my faith back. By the way can you give me a brief explanation?

    Thanks

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      huruf
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      What? Where in the Qur'an do you see that? mention the aya where such a thing, according to your "sources" is stated. I do not know of a fee. Quite the opposite.

      Salaam

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      • E Offline
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        Ervin
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Salam Huruf.
        Yes No
        2195
        Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah.
        841
        Whatever ye take as spoils of war, lo! a fifth thereof is for Allah, and for the messenger and for the kinsman.
        9103
        Take alms of their wealth, wherewith thou mayst purify them and mayst make them grow, and pray for them.
        9111
        Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs.
        4738
        Lo! ye are those who are called to spend in the way of Allah, yet among you there are some who hoard. And as for him who hoardeth, he hoardeth only from his soul. And Allah is the Rich, and ye are the poor. And if ye turn away He will exchange you for some other folk, and they will not be the likes of you.
        5710
        And what aileth you that ye spend not in the way of Allah when unto Allah belongeth the inheritance of the heavens and the earth?
        12104
        Thou askest them no fee for it.
        3621
        Follow those who ask of you no fee.
        4223
        I ask of you no fee.
        5240
        Or askest thou (Muhammad) a fee from them so that they are plunged in debt?
        6846
        Or dost thou (Muhammad) ask a fee from them so that they are heavily taxed?

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          huruf
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          So ?which of those ayas do you think entails that the Prophet is asking for a fee? Because I can't see any in them. But if yuou see it pleas epoint out and explain. I trust you have read also what comes before them and what goes after so as to ascertain the context.

          Salaam

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            Ervin
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Huruf, It would be nice to get the explanation for all of them or just for one of them. The point is not whether the prophet is asking it himself but that some of the verses talk about following someone who doesn't ask for a fee but that later on there is a fee. So it doesn't matter whether it's God's word or of someone who was a follower of the prophet.

            So Huruf briefly explain why am I wrong( I want to be wrong),

            And just to make sure that you know, I am trying to prove it to my self that it's not a contradiction , not that it is becauseI I like the Quran and this is what's holding me back.

            Thanks

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              hicham9
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              @Ervin, you're guilty of misapprehension and misconstruction!

              If you wish to understand the Qurn, you'll need to learn the actual vernacular in which the text was originally written.

              So Huruf briefly explain why am I wrong( I want to be wrong)

              She doesn't have to, since you didn't offer any "contradiction" in the first place!

              LM

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                Ervin
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Peace

                I did say a contradiction or a SEEMING CONTRADICTION.

                I am sure you guys can work out what can seem to someone to be a contradiction.

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                  hicham9
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Give me just two Qurnic passages that contradict each other on this matter!

                  ~ Make sure the selfsame Qurnic term (for fee) is used (in both Suras).
                  If you can't meet this requirement, just produce the best you've got .

                  LM

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                  • E Offline
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                    Ervin
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    841 Spend your wealth for the cause of God.

                    3621 Thou asked them no fee for it.

                    Asking for money is asking for a fee. Is it not?

                    Thanks

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                    • H Offline
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                      hicham9
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      841 Spend your wealth for the cause of God.

                      Sura 841 doesn't state "Spend your wealth for the cause of God"!

                      3621 Thou asked them no fee for it.

                      Sura 3621 doesn't state "Thou asked them no fee for it"!

                      Add. How does 'spending our wealth for the sake of G-D' contradict
                      a messenger of G-D not asking for a mundane pay from not his Master!?

                      Asking for money is asking for a fee. Is it not?

                      Who's asking for money!?


                      @Ervin, you're guilty of misapprehension and misconstruction!

                      If you wish to understand the Qurn, you'll need to learn the actual vernacular in which the text was originally written.

                      LM

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                        Ervin
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Yes , you are right hitcham9. I just checked it inside my copy of the Monotheist group copy of the Quran. It says follow those who are not asking for a wage and are guided. It doesn't mention the prophet.
                        Etc, etc
                        Now I can start practicing!

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                          zayd
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          http//www.drshabbir.com/library/QXPdesktop.html
                          http//www.ourbeacon.com/wordpress/?page_id=21


                          They ask you (O Messenger) about the spoils of war. Say, ?The spoils of war belong to God and the Messenger. Be mindful of God?s commands and maintain the bonds of brotherhood among you. Obey God and the Messenger if you are believers.


                          (You ask about the distribution of the spoils of war when you fight aggression and attain victory.) Whatever you take as spoils of war, a fifth of that is for God and the Messenger (the State). (And the rest) is for the families (of the fallen soldiers), those left alone in the society, the widows, the ones whose income has stalled for any reason, and the needy wayfarer, the homeless son of the street. This (you will do) if you believe in God and in what We have revealed to Our servant when the two armies met (at Badr) on the Day of Distinction. God has appointed due measure for all things and events.


                          Some of them try to find fault with you (O Prophet) in the distribution of charity. If they are given plenty, they are pleased, but if they receive little share, they get enraged.

                          It would have been enormously good for them if they were content with what God and His Messenger had given them. And if they had said, "God suffices us. God will give us of His bounty, and the Messenger will distribute in kindness and equity. We turn to God with all our hopes.?


                          There are others who acknowledge their faults. Since they have a mixed record of good and bad deeds, they may hope that God will relent toward them, for God is Forgiving, Merciful.

                          Accept their contribution for the community. Purify their thoughts with proper education and training so that their own ?self? may grow. Encourage and support them! Your support is a great source of peace in their hearts. God is Hearer, Knower.


                          Whatever God has turned over to His Messenger from those communities belongs to God and His Messenger (the Central Authority. The Messenger will spend it on)

                          • The welfare of the families of the believers.
                          • The orphans.
                          • Those who still feel left alone in the society.
                          • The widows.
                          • Those who have no means of earning their livelihood.
                          • The disabled who cannot move around looking for the bounty of God.
                          • The homeless son of the street.
                          • Those who are on their way to join you, and
                          • Those who travel a distance to seek help.
                            So that it may not keep revolving between the wealthy among you. So, take what the Messenger gives you, and abstain from what he forbids you. Be mindful of God. Surely, God is Stern in grasping.

                          And it is for the poor refugees who have been expelled from their homelands and their property. They seek God?s bounty and approval, and support God and His Messenger. They are the ones true to their faith.

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                            huruf
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Anythin said in the Qur'an for the Messenger is speaking strictly of the messenger as a servant of Humanity sent by God. It is not for him as a person but as a servant of the community.

                            When people are told to obey or follow the Messenger, it is exclusively as such messenger not as a particular person. The Qur'an is very strict and consistent in that. So any funda allocated to the Messenger as funda allocated to serve the community by disposition of the Messenger, as a public authority.

                            If we look, for instances when the wives of the Prophet are told to obey God and obey de messenger. They are not tol to obey Muhammad or a husband, but THE MESSENGER, and as such partners of the messenger and the whole family of the Messenger are held to observe a level of behaviour which in fact made their lives asthetic and devoid of worldly advantages. There is in fact a prohibition for the prophet and his family to profit materially from his mission, which is the reason why at one time the women were given the choice to leave the Prophet with a worthy compensation or to stick with him in a life which would be anything but glamorous. Which is also the reason why they would deserve a twofold reward for their good deeds and a twofold punishment for their misdeeds. And which is the reason why God appoints them others of the believers, because they chose God and the Messenger rather than worldly glitter.

                            Salaam

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                              hicham9
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Anythin said in the Qur'an for the Messenger is speaking strictly of the messenger as a servant of Humanity sent by God.
                              It is not for him as a person but as a servant of the community

                              LM @huruf!

                              Where in the Qurn does it say that G-D's envoy/s are "servant/s" of Humanity!?

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                                huruf
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Well, they do serve humanity. When they teach, when they warn, when they undergo troubles to take to them the message, they do serve humanity and that is what God sends them for.

                                Salaam

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                                  hicham9
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Afaik, serving G-D alone is the central message of the Qurn!

                                  by serve, I mean bd

                                  LM

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                                    huruf
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    God does not need a damned thing from anybody, but people need prophets, need warners, need helpers. God does not. We worship God, we deliver ourselves to God, but God does not stand in need of being served by any of us, but He does want us to serve each others, to serve other humans, help them and love them, that is what He expects of us.

                                    It would be vain on our art to think that we can serve God.

                                    Salaam

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                                      hicham9
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      LM @huruf,

                                      God does not need a damned thing from anybody,
                                      but people need prophets, need warners, need helpers.
                                      God does not.We worship God, we deliver ourselves to God,
                                      but God does not stand in need of being served by any of us, ...

                                      Of course, G-D doesn't "need" (3515)!

                                      ~ I serve? G-D alone because I need to, not vice versa!

                                      ... but He does want us to serve each others, to serve other humans, ...

                                      Taking each other as 'masters' beside G-D is prohibited in the Qurn see 364, &c.

                                      ... help them and love them, that is what He expects of us.

                                      Yes! obviously 'our Master' expects 'us/his servants' to be and do good (to each other) ...

                                      What I'm arguing against is the notion of serving humanity, which has no basis in the scripture!

                                      Where in the Qurn does it say that G-D's envoy/s are "servant/s" of Humanity!?

                                      It would be vain on our part to think that we can serve God.

                                      Serving G-D alone is the central message of the Qurn!
                                      by serve, I mean bd

                                      Be sound.


                                      ? render homage and obedience to

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                                        huruf
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        Your understanding of the word serve is different rom mine. We cannot serve God, you cannot do anything for he needs, but we can worship Him. We cannot worship anything than him, but we can serve anybody and anything.

                                        Salaam

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                                          hicham9
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Your understanding of the word serve is different rom mine.

                                          My personal understanding of QA. abada differs from the usual, Sunni denition (to worship).

                                          To my knowledge, the primary meaning of the Arabian, Central emitic vb. bd is 'to serve'.
                                          The secondary meaning of "worship" appears to be naught but a later development (in CA)!

                                          We cannot serve God, you cannot do anything for he needs, but we can worship Him.

                                          Which part of 'serving G-D alone = revere and obey the one and only Master (of us)' you do not understand!?

                                          We cannot worship anything than him, but we can serve anybody and anything.

                                          Humans tend to 'worship' anybody and anything all the time!
                                          E.g., when Hadithers revere and obey da3if bukhari, they are in fact 'serving' its author/s (beside G-D) ...

                                          ~ Now, for the 3rd and last time

                                          Where in the Qurn does it say that G-D's envoy/s are "servant/s" of Humanity!?

                                          LM

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