How would you translate 19:29/30/31

hawk99

Peace

nope true, we are to take the lessons from the Quranic narration/text
but the dialogue is to Muhammad. (rasul) and the reader.

I appreciate folks erroneously including me with this group but
I don't belong with them!

Lo! We inspire thee (READER/LISTENER) (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets
after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes,
and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as
We imparted unto David the Psalms;

May God bless you all

Man_of_Faith

Everyone translates the root as "establish". How about consider it might mean something else. The root itself has a definition as keep. I would say it has to do with consciousness and the word is used for an Arabic word used to refer to people who have consciousnesses.

Be well

mmkhan

Thank you for the kind words mmkhan. I would even take it one step further and say "If we don't take these aayaat directly addressing to us, then it is pointless to read them".

Peace

Peace bro,

Yes I agree with you again there is no point in reading them. handshake

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Lo! We inspire thee (READER/LISTENER) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms;

Peace brother,

Thank you for the aayaat.

Yes, they all are referring to you and me and others as a reader unless it is addressed by names.
Try taking those aayaat as Allah is talking to you and you will see the lot of difference in yourself. Just take a try.

As you bold the part of the above aayat, we can talk on that for instance. Don't you think Allah inspired you as those who mentioned in that aayat? If not, then who inspired you and how did you reach up to this level of understanding without Allah's inspiration? You are not like others, compare yourself with those who are far far away from the understanding of the Book and be thankful to your Lord, Allah who inspired you and guided you up to here.

There is no way that you can update your level without the inspiration of Allah alone. And please do not forget that Allah is partial and inspired only rasools and nabis and forget you or leave you for others nope Think about it.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Peace

nope true, we are to take the lessons from the Quranic narration/text
but the dialogue is to Muhammad. (rasul) and the reader.

Lo! We inspire thee (READER/LISTENER) (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets
after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes,
and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as
We imparted unto David the Psalms;

May God bless you all

Peace bro,

Where did Muhammed came in picture? It is not there in the aayat!

Can you prove that the dialogue was to Muhammed?
If you say 'yes' then you have show me, how did Muhammed came in between?
If you say, alQuraan was given to him, then you have show me from which aayaat did you concluded this?

I appreciate folks erroneously including me with this group but
I don't belong with them!

I knew that

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

NK

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا

The above verse and the verses that follow are clear that this conversation did not take place when Jesus was an infant in the cradle, but when he had actually been made a prophet. The verb كَانَ in the verse makes it clear that Jesus was not a child in the cradle - A verb of the class called incomplete نَاقِصٌ means "was"

Old and learned Jews would no doubt speak of a young man who was born and brought up before their eyes as a child in the cradle as if disdaining to address one so young. Please correct me If I am wrong.

Nom_de_plume

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا

The above verse and the verses that follow are clear that this conversation did not take place when Jesus was an infant in the cradle, but when he had actually been made a prophet. The verb كَانَ in the verse makes it clear that Jesus was not a child in the cradle - A verb of the class called incomplete نَاقِصٌ means "was"

Old and learned Jews would no doubt speak of a young man who was born and brought up before their eyes as a child in the cradle as if disdaining to address one so young. Please correct me If I am wrong.

‎1927 فاتت so came she به with him قومها folk hers تحمله taḥmiluhu/she carry him قالوا said they of ىمرىم O Maryam لقد hath assuredly جىت came thou شىىا thing of فرىا bewilderment of
‎1928 ىاخت O sister هرون Aaron ما not كان kāna/be/was ابوك father your امرا elder سو evil وما and not كانت kānat/be/was she امك mother your بغىا unchaste/immoral of
‎1929 فاشارت so points she الىه towards him قالوا said they of كىف how نكلم we talk من who كان kāna/be/is فى in المهد l-mahdi/the cradle صبىا ṣabiyyan/kid of (still breastfeeding 0 to 24 months)
‎1930 قال said انى indeed I عبد devotee الله the God اتىنى has given me الكتب the book وجعلنى and made me نبىا prophet of

NK

Nom de plume What is your point? Please elaborate more. Thanks

NK

Nom de plume Please add one more thing. Please explain to us what rules of Arabic grammar you used to translate كان kāna/be/is. I am not touching on any other topic, just interested in your translation rule of Kana. Thanks .

good_logic

Hi NK.
Nice to hear from you.

Brother , any past story ,when told by Qoran uses the past tense for "KANA", like for example

In Joseph and his brothers there are lessons for the seekers.
لَقَد كانَ فى يوسُفَ وَإِخوَتِهِ ءايٰتٌ لِلسّائِلينَ

As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them. Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things you could not stand."
وَأَمَّا الجِدارُ فَكانَ لِغُلٰمَينِ يَتيمَينِ فِى المَدينَةِ وَكانَ تَحتَهُ كَنزٌ لَهُما وَكانَ أَبوهُما صٰلِحًا فَأَرادَ رَبُّكَ أَن يَبلُغا أَشُدَّهُما وَيَستَخرِجا كَنزَهُما رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ وَما فَعَلتُهُ عَن أَمرى ذٰلِكَ تَأويلُ ما لَم تَسطِع عَلَيهِ صَبرًا

If "KANA" was in the present or future tense it will not make sense.
This is what the verse about Jesus means

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?"
فَأَشارَت إِلَيهِ قالوا كَيفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كانَ فِى المَهدِ صَبِيًّا
(The infant) He said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
قالَ إِنّى عَبدُ اللَّهِ ءاتىٰنِىَ الكِتٰبَ وَجَعَلَنى نَبِيًّا
...
If the case was "as adult" Then the question from her family will not be there..
Also another verse confirms this "He-Jesus- will speak to people in both "the crib and adulthood"-"Yukallimu Al Naas Fi Al Mahd Wa Kahla"-.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

NK

Hi, good logic,
Nice to hear from you too!

Thanks for your input. I fully understand the use and meaning of "Kaana" in the Quran. My question is regarding the text of the Quran and if someone can please explain to me what rules of Arabic grammar all translators have used to translate كان kāna/be/is in this verse. Whereas the original meaning of the word is "was". I know there are grammar rules to using "Kaana", meaning "is", but one can not apply them to this verse. I might be wrong, therefore, I have asked this question.

I can explain the other verses where God said, "Jesus- will speak to people in both "the crib and adulthood", but I am focusing purely on the text of the verse.
Thanks

NK

فَأَشارَت إِلَيهِ قالوا كَيفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كانَ فِى المَهدِ صَبِيًّا

My point is we can not translate the above verse into the present tense. Due to a verb كانَ we have no other choice but to translate it into the past tense. I have no problem accepting it that Jesus spoke in the cradle as a child, however, the Arabic text won't let this meaning. Therefore, I asked the question of how people translate it into the present tense.

I translate the above verse as

But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?

good_logic

Peace NK.
Thanks for explaining .
I get you..

But it cannot be translated into the present or future tense if the story is in the past anyway. what difference does saying" how can we speak to an infant who was in a crib" or just saying "how can we speak to an infant in a crib" make? If the infant spoke from the crib.

Unless one assumes the speech from the infant comes much later, the meaning is the same.
I thought the intent of the question was " does the infant speak from the crib or not"?
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Nom_de_plume

Nom de plume Please add one more thing. Please explain to us what rules of Arabic grammar you used to translate كان kāna/be/is. I am not touching on any other topic, just interested in your translation rule of Kana. Thanks .

peace, always "be" using context to translate as is/was/were, etc.

210 كانوا kānū/be (were) they of
234 وكان wakāna/and be (was/became)
236 كانا kānā/be (were) dual
294 كانت kānat/be (is) she/it (feminine)
297 قل say من who كان kāna/be (is) عدوا enemy of لجبرىل to Gabriel

411 ىوصىكم instructed you (pl.) الله the God فى in اولدكم offspring yours للذكر to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the females two فان so if كن kunna/be (are) (f/pl.) نسا womenfolk فوق above اثنتىن two (females) فلهن so for them (f/pl.) ثلثا third dual (2/3) ما what ترك left وان and if كانت kānat/be she وحده one (female) فلها so for her النصف the half ولابوىه and to parents two his (said person) لكل to each وحد one منهما of them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kāna/be (is) له for him (said person) ولد offspring فان so if لم not ىكن yakun/beeth له for him (said person) ولد offspring وورثه and inherit him (said person) ابواه parents dual his (said person; if both parents alive) فلامه so to mother his (said person) الثلث the third فان so if كان kāna/be (are) له for him (said person) اخوه siblings (3+ at least one male) فلامه so to mother his (said person) السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصىه instruction (behest/last will and testament) ىوصى instructed بها in it او or دىن dept اباوكم parents yours وابنوكم and children yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب nearer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه an obligation من from الله the God ان indeed الله the God كان kāna/be (is) علىما knower of حكىما wisdom of

likewise from context determine age and how to translate "be" as is/was/were etc.

1927 تحمله tahmiluhu/she carry him (infant, young child, baby)
1929 من who كان kāna/be (is) فى in المهد l-mahdi/the cradle
صبىا sabiyyan/young child of (breast feeding age i.e., birth to 24 months)

3114 وفصله and separation (breastfeeding) his (said person) فى in (within <=) عامىن years two
4615 وحمله and pregnancy his وفصله and separation his ثلثون thirty شهرا lunar cycles of
inequality equation e.g., gestation period plus weaning time = 30 lunar cycles

if pregnancy 6 months then weaning time = 24 months
if pregnancy 8 months then weaning time = 22 months
if pregnancy 10 months then weaning time = 20 months

likewise use dictionaries or hadith for word meanings etc.

Narrated `Umar bin Al-Khattab
and behold, a woman amongst them was milking her breasts to feed and whenever she found a child amongst the captives, she took it over her chest and nursed it (she had lost her child but later she found him)

حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو غَسَّانَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي زَيْدُ بْنُ أَسْلَمَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَدِمَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم سَبْىٌ، فَإِذَا امْرَأَةٌ مِنَ السَّبْىِ قَدْ تَحْلُبُ ثَدْيَهَا تَسْقِي، إِذَا وَجَدَتْ صَبِيًّا فِي السَّبْىِ أَخَذَتْهُ فَأَلْصَقَتْهُ بِبَطْنِهَا وَأَرْضَعَتْهُ، فَقَالَ لَنَا النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَتَرَوْنَ هَذِهِ طَارِحَةً وَلَدَهَا فِي النَّارِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْنَا لاَ وَهْىَ تَقْدِرُ عَلَى أَنْ لاَ تَطْرَحَهُ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ اللَّهُ أَرْحَمُ بِعِبَادِهِ مِنْ هَذِهِ بِوَلَدِهَا ‏"‏‏.‏

Reference Sahih al-Bukhari 5999
In-book reference Book 78, Hadith 30
USC-MSA web (English) reference Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 28

NK

Peace good logic and Num de plume,

I believe we are not on the same page. Like any other language, Arabic also has some grammar rules. My simple point is we can not translate a text based on the context or based on our preconceived ideas. The text is simply translated by the rules of grammar. Therefore, I came to this forum and presented my viewpoint. My question remains intact what rule of grammar one takes into consideration to translate the verb "Kaana" from "was" to "is"?If someone has an answer then I am ready to listen with an open mind otherwise there is nothing to debate on this topic as I know all the relevant verses pertaining to this topic.

Thanks

good_logic

Peace NK.

There is no debate from my side. You are entitled to ask why.
I was just checking with you.
For me if the context is general ,then it applies for the past,present and future.
Example

لَقَد كانَ فى يوسُفَ وَإِخوَتِهِ ءايٰتٌ لِلسّائِلينَ

Can be simply translated as
In Joseph and his brothers there are lessons,/Ayat for the seekers/those who ask

I take "Man Kana Fi AL mahdi Sabiya" as a general statement for all those in the Mahd as not able to speak in principle.. But Jesus was the exception.
Take care brother.
Peace.

NK

Peace good logic,

Thanks for your input much appreciated.

Take care

jkhan

فَأَشارَت إِلَيهِ قالوا كَيفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كانَ فِى المَهدِ صَبِيًّا

My point is we can not translate the above verse into the present tense. Due to a verb كانَ we have no other choice but to translate it into the past tense. I have no problem accepting it that Jesus spoke in the cradle as a child, however, the Arabic text won't let this meaning. Therefore, I asked the question of how people translate it into the present tense.

I translate the above verse as

But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?

Salam...

If you go through all kana kāf wāw nūn (ك و ن) verses it is very obvious it profoundly used for present, past and future tense without any bit of doubt... Within quran you can realize...
Here in the concerned verse is present tense only... There is nothing past there... Maryam came with Isa and people did witness it and Maryam told pointing to Isa ...
As per my thorough understanding Isa was not an infant that is to say under two years or less but Isa was a boy who still mothers prefer to carry... Roughly 6 or 7 years during tough long journeys.. .. This is not a matured age... People called Isa Fil Mahdi rightly coz he was not good enough to explain matters in detail in general... But Allah has already given Hukm and knowledge to Isa in that tender age... Similarly to Yahya who was given when he was that tender age.. Yahya was not baby or infant but he was a boy little one.. But God gave him Hukm.. 1912 proves that Yahya was not infant but a little boy roughly 6 years or so..

I have no clue why asking grammar rule while quran itself explain the word kana in three tenses..

Meanwhile people of Maryam addressed her stated in a sense both her parents are passed away. Brother was alive so they addressed her as O sister of Harun.. Never used daughter of such and such.. Indicates time has elapsed they were no more.. I mean not even mother of Mary was alive.. So Isa to be a tender aged boy befits..

Every child learn to speak from mother or family... Isa was born exceptional but there is no reason he should speak as he was born..
So real meaning of the verse is "how can we speak to the one who is in a state of childhood " (fil Mahdi sabeeyan) not he was on literal cradle..

Once again.. Go through all Kana verses in Quran if you have not... That will definitly teach you that Kana is all tenses..
Meanwhile what difference it makes even one take the kana in this verse as pastense... ? Let me know that pls with logic..

Note I also thought once that Isa talked to people when he was a baby since yahmilhu (carrying) is used in Quran... But 1912 convinced me that Isa and Yahya were not infants but boys little ones around six years... Modern day dictionary may give meaning of infant to the word sabeeyan but not quran ..

jkhan

Peace

So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?" said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the BOOK and made me a prophet and He has وَجَعَلَنِي made me blessed wherever I am and has وَأَوْصَانِي enjoined upon me بِالصَّلَاةِ prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant (19 29/30/31)

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If وَجَعَلَنِي is made ME then وَأَوْصَانِي should also be enjoined ME. From where the translators got UPON ME

What is the difference between SALAT and BIS SALAT? Are both same?

The correct translation should be

So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?" said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the BOOK and made me a prophet and He has وَجَعَلَنِي made me blessed wherever I am and has وَأَوْصَانِي enjoined me بِالصَّلَاةِ WITH/BY the prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant (19 29/30/31)

But the above translation does not make any sense

FOR REFERENCE

أَرِنِي show me فَاتَّبِعُونِي then follow me يَمْسَسْنِي touched me لِتَقْتُلَنِي to kill me أَمَرْتَنِي commanded me بَيْنِي between me هَدَانِي guided me خَلَقْتَنِي created me آتَانِي given me تُخَاطِبْنِي address me يَعْصِمُنِي to protect me عَلَّمَنِي taught me اذْكُرْنِي mention me تَبِعَنِي follows me عَصَانِي disobeys me فَأَنظِرْنِي then reprieve me زِدْنِي increase me تَذَرْنِي leave me فَاذْكُرُونِي so remember me مِنِّي from me اتَّخِذُونِي take me

There is no UPON in any of the above words that appear in the Quran but all of a sudden the translators added UPON while translating أَوْصَانِي AUSAANII

QUESTION Why only Jesus has been enjoined prayer and zakah AS LONG AS HE REMAINS ALIVE and why all others have not been enjoined prayer and zakah AS LONG AS THEY REMAIN ALIVE?

Did Jesus really offer RITUAL PRAYER and gave ZAKAH while in cradle?

Please help

Thanks

Peace...

I know it is a very old topic but the initiator had asked few questions...

Yes... Isa was given. BIS SALAT AND ZAKAT...
the correct meaning is Isa was bestowed (Asouni) with INTEGRITY (salat) AND PURIFICATION (zakat) as long as he lived... Special mercy from Allah like he gave to few other prophets example Yahya (1913.. Yahya was blessed with ZAKAT /purity)... But all human needs to establish Integrity and bringforth purification.. But these were blessed by Allah to be born till death with good integrity and purification...
It is not ritual salat and conventional charity /Zakat...

Thank you...

Note on my other point in previous thread Gulam does suit for a baby boy or even a little boy who in tender age like 6-7... .. Thank you..