28 september 2015 versus 20 september 617

noshirk

Salaam All

http//www.wnd.com/files/2015/04/blood-moon-graphic2.jpg

Let's recall some coranic exegesis exposed in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0

Shahr means full moon
Ramadhan mean heat and also firts rains after summer heat
leylatou el qadr mean equinox (equi noxim in latin and equi =qadr and noxium=leylatou)

according to this, and verses 30-1 and 30-2 who place quran revelation around year 617, we prooved that

20 september 617 was a full moon night
20 september 617 was a supermoon (that is moon at perigee wichh mean that it was at his biiger size in the sky
20 september 617 wasan equinox day.

in addition, the next full moon, that is 20 october 617 there was a lunar eclipse.
541 The Hour draws near, and the moon is breached.
542 And if they see a sign, they turn away and say ?Ongoing magic!?
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLEmap/0601-0700/LE0617-10-20P.gif

with, the same night, a particular planet alignement
371 By those who align in alignment.
372 By the deniers in deny
373 By the those who expose in remembering
374 Your god is indeed One.
375 The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and what lies between them, and the Lord of the sunrises.
376 We have adorned the lower heaven with the decoration of planets.

http//www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/Solar?di=BBCB8BD1831A921F6B895D045EA4BA4785ABC2FDED83F917E468F28CAC45554630233742244B76ED7173FE42E0726B3AADB5EEEE4C606FD28FDDC73D31008475E9308C30A69B482E558BB9D47CE175A6

we discovered finally also that 15 days after, there was a solar eclipse.
911 By the Sun and its brightness.
912 And the Moon that comes after it.
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsearch/SEsearchmap.php?Ecl=06171104

http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCSEmap/0601-0700/617-11-04.gif

there is 12 or 13 full moon in the year.
Quran says we should count until 12
moroever, the counting shoud begin the first full moon after spring equinox.

this is because of this verse who link the year to the wine season cycle
1249 ?Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which in it they will go to (wine)press.
(see 12-36 just before for use of aasara in wine context).

since there is 4 ahshor Haram (sacred full moons) in a year and that hijaj is used as unit of time in verse 28-27, we can deduce that sacred full moon of actual year are.
4 April 2015 and 2 july 2015 and 28 september 2015 and 25 December 2015.

Concerning ramadan 2015, it is then the full moon of 28 september 2015.

let's see now what will Happen in the sky the 28 september 2015.

in addition to full moon, there will be a supermoon.
in fact, like the coincidence of 20 sptember 617, Moon will be at his exact perigee.

Moreover, there will be lunar eclipse in great part of the world
http//www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/lunar/2015-september-28

is eclipse is the last one of a special event called tetrad.
http//www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/blood-moon.html

moon will appear red in the sky

For jews, it will be Hag Succot, a feast day.

Some christians says that it will be the beginning of "end of time",
http//www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/blood-moon-sets-off-apocalyptic-debate-among-some-christians/2014/04/15/00b76502-c4be-11e3-9ee7-02c1e10a03f0_story.html

good view https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZroQb2m-eg0

funny no ?

Peace

noble

Peace

another attempt like Ayman and Layth at identifying the Shahr of Ramadan, you say this year it will start with 28 September 2015 a full moon,

Ayman counting as the first full moon after the Summer Solar Solstice places it on 02 July 2015, and indeed as I agree with Ayman's Ijtihad, I will fast on 02 July 2015 and the two next days 03 and 04 July 2015.

Can you elaborate in simpler terms why you reckon it is 28 September 2015 instead?

noshirk

Peace

another attempt like Ayman and Layth at identifying the Shahr of Ramadan, you say this year it will start with 28 September 2015 a full moon,

Ayman counting as the first full moon after the Summer Solar Solstice places it on 02 July 2015, and indeed as I agree with Ayman's Ijtihad, I will fast on 02 July 2015 and the two next days 03 and 04 July 2015.

Can you elaborate in simpler terms why you reckon it is 28 September 2015 instead?

Salaam brother
work of brother ayman is very interesting and i agree with a big part of it. I share his undersanding of what is shahr.

however i don't agree with his understanding of lailatou el qadr (night od Mesure).
for me, is mean equinox and not summer solistice.
please note that equinox = equi noxium in latin= qadr night.

however, the main argumentation is astronomical one. Since equinox=laylatou el qadr and ramadhan=first rains after heat (dictionnary) leads to findings of the particular night of 20 september 617, wich is "the famous night" or quran revelation.

please look here https//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
20 september is equinox, + full moon + supermoon (perigee).

if hypothesis laeylatou el qadr=summer solistice was right, and since quran was revealed both shahr ramadan and summer solistice, we should be able to find a day where full moon occured at summer solistice, at least.

there is another funny proof
if we put ramadan at september, month rabia 1 and rabii 2 falls in marcha and april. Since rabii means springs, it seaams better than putting ramadan in july, wich leads to a spring in december.
it seems that "hegire months" took their name in omar era. 638 it is the date where hegire calendar was create. and ramadan 638 was in september.

Peace

noble

Peace

From a lexical point of view, regarding Rabi3 1 and 2, you seem to have a point here.

Though how come you get the conclusion that equi = qadr, I thought equi from Latin is for equal, and qadr in Arabic means decree.

noshirk

Peace

From a lexical point of view, regarding Rabi3 1 and 2, you seem to have a point here.

Though how come you get the conclusion that equi = qadr, I thought equi from Latin is for equal, and qadr in Arabic means decree.

easy bro

in arabic, when you says something has a value of 10 dollars, you say qadrouha 10 dollars.
qadr is avaluate smothing, that is give its equivalent value.
it is often traduced by measure. but measure is to give an equivalent value, that is you should make an equality somewhere.

we can say then at equinox, length of day qadrouhou length of night everywhere on earth (wich solve problem of ramadhan at north pole)
there is other "equalities" at equinox for example, levant is equidistant of the two extreme levants.

http//i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/beatlo/Equinox/EquinoxDzibilchaltun_zpsb2e8caf6.jpg

Peace

noshirk

salaam

other funny remark if we consider luke gospel true when saying that birth of yahia and jesus are separated by six months.

in verse 19-25, we have meriam eating ripe dates. That is december
9 month before, at leilatou el qadr of march, angels fall upon mary to annouce issa
and 6 month earlier, at leilatou el qadr of september, angel falls upon zachatie to annouce birth of yahia.

and we know from quran that in leylatou el qadr, angels love to fall on human

peace

noble

Peace @noshirk,

to be honest I don't know, but your Rabi'3 remark gives room for pondering further on the issue, as I personally favour simpler explanations, like Occam's Razor methodology.

and according to what you've added, it seems to me now that the Full Moon of Ramadan, i.e. Shahr of Ramadan is the first full moon after the Autumn Equinox.

However to come back to Qadar, in the context of Laialtu Al Qadr, decree is not about equality, but about decree, the decree for what happens in the next year, each year.

The Elites try to copy that with their famous Bilderberg meetings each year only their Boss is Lucifer...

noshirk

Peace @noshirk,

to be honest I don't know, but your Rabi'3 remark gives room for pondering further on the issue, as I personally favour simpler explanations, like Occam's Razor methodology.

and according to what you've added, it seems to me now that the Full Moon of Ramadan, i.e. Shahr of Ramadan is the first full moon after the Autumn Equinox.

However to come back to Qadar, in the context of Laialtu Al Qadr, decree is not about equality, but about decree, the decree for what happens in the next year, each year.

The Elites try to copy that with their famous Bilderberg meetings each year only their Boss is Lucifer...

Salaam theNabster

unfortunately we are not agree yet on two points.

first one decree is not good traduction for qadr.

see this for exemple
1521 And there is not a thing, except that We have vaults of it, and We do not send it down except in a precise qadr.

now see dictionnary
( &#1577
. . .

qadr is value of something.

see this also
1560 ?Except for his wife, we have evaluated (qaddarnaha) that she will be with those destroyed.?

or this

1675 God puts forth the example of a slave who is owned and cannot achieve (no qadr) anything, against one whom We have provided a good provision which he spends of it secretly and openly. Are they the same? Praise be to God, but most of them do not know.

that is no qadr =cannot reach the value.
and qadir=can reach the value, can do.

second point on wich we are not agree

and formula for ramadan is not = fisrt full moon after autumn equinox
but
seventh full moon after spring equinox

it is quite the same. But sometimes it is different.
it is also quite like jews if they abandon the "nassiya", that is their embolismic year..

i quote the argumentation that i gave in the first thread

there is 12 or 13 full moon in the year.
Quran says we should count until 12
moroever, the counting shoud begin the first full moon after spring equinox.

this is because of this verse who link the year to the wine season cycle
1249 ?Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which in it they will go to (wine)press.
(see 12-36 just before for use of aasara in wine context).

since there is 4 ahshor Haram (sacred full moons) in a year and that hijaj is used as unit of time in verse 28-27, we can deduce that sacred full moon of actual year are.
4 April 2015 and 2 july 2015 and 28 september 2015 and 25 December 2015.

Concerning ramadan 2015, it is then the full moon of 28 september 2015.

let's see now what will Happen in the sky the 28 september 2015.

don't forget that our god is also god of Moses.

take a look here https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus

seventh full moon after spring equinox is between 14 september and 13 october.

Peace

noble

Peace Bro @noshirk

and thanks for your answers, very generous of you to enlighten me, I need to ponder further with a clear head about what you are exposing me to, instead of just answering you from the top of my head and emotions

I would love to settle this Ramadan business once and for all, so your ijtihad is appreciated.

As an Arab Jew, linking it up to Moses is most pleasurable to me, but maybe it is incorrect, so I will think through what you posted.

Regarding Qadar as Measure, I can wrap my head around this that Allah on Lailatul' Qadr, bring forth as commands to be delivered by Angels what He has in store (measured) for the Earth in the coming year, this is how Arabs I think apprehend it, at least from my experience in meetings in Halaqas in Mosques and elsewhere with Scholars, Clerics, and other fellow worshippers in my times when I used to hang around them... Same as my Mother and Father (may they RIP) also believed by the way...

Hannibal

Peace all,

Dear Brother, thanks for sharing the results of your personal studies regarding the timing of
I find your imput enlightening and thought provoking

However i would like to have further explanations/ arguments for the following 3 points

The etymology of

The word equinox comes from this definition, derived from the Latin aequus (equal) and nox (night)

in arabic has many meanings depending on the context. Below are some (with a few examples from the Quran)

decree (15603) (5660)
restrict (8916) (657)
measure / evaluate / estimate (691) (1317) (5449)

Can you please elaborate on how you understood the meaning of equivalence from the last definition ?
As far as i understand, i can only deduce the meaning of "measure with great accuracy"

"Then will come after that a year in which the people will be given rain and in which they will press " (1249)

How did you deduce that the counting of a new year should begin the first full moon after spring equinox ?

About the 'ahshor Haram'

If you consider that Ramadan is one of the ahshor Haram, than how do you handle the issue of fasting during the hajj that takes place in the same ahshor ?
If we assume 2 things 1 =Ramadan is one of the 'ahshor Haram' and 2 = the relationship between the and the equinox due to the night of , how did you extend this relationship to the other 'ahshor Haram' ?

Just a thought about the content of the introducing post, i know that you have contributed to many other discussions and have said and re-said the same arguments over and over again thus maybe getting tired of re-stating them. However, i would recommend you argument your point in a more detailed manner in order to give more depth to your reflexion especially since this is the first thread dedicated to it.

May God guide us all

GODsubmitter

As Einstein said, the sublime truth should be both elegant and beautiful...

I have a tendency to accept explanations of truth that are simple and graceful.

Thank you for this elaborate study which FEELS right...

Peace

noshirk

Salaam Hannibal

1-Etymology
equi in equi noxium is to says that length of day is "equi" to length of night
there is no problem in arabic to say lenght of day qadrouhou length of night

i see no verse where decree can be took as certainly good translation
An each measure, we try to make the measured thing equivalent (qadrouhou) the measurin thing.

2-First month
the problem is to determine in which mount counting begin
12-49 link aam to an agricultural cycle. and more precisely to grapevine cycle since press (aasara) is used just before (12-36) for wine context.
12-49 indicates that this cycle end with "wine production" (see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_growth_cycle_of_grapevines)

so, the more logical is to say that quranic aam begins in spring. That is were we have to put mont 1

2-197 says that Hajj occurs in known Ashor. So 2-197 is not saying that before they were wrong here.
the only thing that seems to be contested by quran is the nassiya wich is probably "forgetting" of the 11 residual days between solar and lunar year

torah seems clear that first month is in spring (see exodus 122, 14-18, numbers 28-16 and leviticus 23-5)

please note also that quite all calendar begins in spring equinox (jew, zoroaster, hindi and even firsts romans calendars)

3-Ashor Halram
if we resume, we have 4 ashor haram in the 12 countable ashor in the year. (9-36). Hajj occurs in the 4 according 2-197.

in 28-27, hijaj (plural of hajj) is used to indicate unit of time. (8 hijajs or 10 hijaj)
so, as unit should not change to bo a good unit, it seems likely to say that a hajj unit of time is quarter.

so ashor haram are around the two equinox and two solistices.

Peace

huruf

By mere considerations of practicality and simplicty I would tend to favour this equinox fixing of ramadan. That would solve certainly many of the problems posed by present understanding of the fast, and though for some people the fast becomes some kind of a big exploit with the corresponding "merit" for the long fast hours, I have always wondered whether that is God's purpose, to make us feel that we must do the exploit. The Qur'an calls to balance, I would say that as far as time measure is concerned, the balance is reached at equinoxes, obviously. That would be the fixing I would be more satisfied with in terms of reason and feeling.

Another thing would be the number of days, but I suppose that would deserve another thread. Howeve rI would like to read noshirk's view, since he seems to have studied the matter so thoroughly.

As to the qadr part, I also tend to agree. Qadr, stems from what I would deem "capacity", which is a measure and related to power because capacity is where we can or we cannot with respect to something. In this sense white related to the mizan, the balance which is fundamental in God's creation and which should rule our behaviour. In a way I could understand that leilat al qdr is when we reach the balance, the inner and outer balance with God's power and ourselves, where we integrate.

Salaam

Hannibal

Salaam All

1-Etymology
equi in equi noxium is to says that length of day is "equi" to length of night
there is no problem in arabic to say lenght of day qadrouhou length of night

i see no verse where decree can be took as certainly good translation
An each measure, we try to make the measured thing equivalent (qadrouhou) the measurin thing.

After a closer look to the forms or "morphological patterns" of the meaning I have given my past post

decree = has the form of
restrict = has the form of
measure = has the form of which is the same form used for the night of

As you said, when measuring we use something equivalent
Point Taken.

2-First month
the problem is to determine in which mount counting begin
12-49 link aam to an agricultural cycle. and more precisely to grapevine cycle since press (aasara) is used just before (12-36) for wine context.
12-49 indicates that this cycle end with "wine production" (see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_growth_cycle_of_grapevines)

so, the more logical is to say that quranic aam begins in spring. That is where we have to put mont 1

2-197 says that Hajj occurs in known Ashor. So 2-197 is not saying that before they were wrong here.
the only thing that seems to be contested by quran is the nassiya which is probably "forgetting" of the 11 residual days between solar and lunar year

torah seems clear that first month is in spring (see exodus 122, 14-18, numbers 28-16 and leviticus 23-5)

please note also that quite all calendar begins in spring equinox (jew, zoroaster, hindi and even firsts romans calendars)

About the annual growth cycle of grapevines, it can surely be seen as a hint

The fact that the older calendars all started at spring is a stronger proof for me since the quran was sent to confirm what had already been said in the other holy books and to correct them when needed (54 which is the case with the "nassiya" you mentioned (937)

3-Ashor Alharam
if we resume, we have 4 ashor haram in the 12 countable ashor in the year. (9-36). Hajj occurs in the 4 according 2-197.

in 28-27, hijaj (plural of hajj) is used to indicate unit of time. (8 hijajs or 10 hijaj)
so, as unit should not change to be a good unit, it seems likely to say that a hajj unit of time is quarter.

so ashor haram are around the two equinox and two solstices.

For this part, i need to study the quran further in order to answer a few personal questions such as

Does the Quran mention that the Ashor Alharam are consecutive ?
Does the Quran say that Ramadan is one of the Ashor Alharam ?
If so, how to do the Hajj in Ramadan ? (the double fasting issue)

May Allah guide us all

noble

Peace noshirk, all

some extra distinctions on Qadar

Another definition of Qadar, from memory is Fate, as in "Belief in Qadha and Qadar, its good and its evil", which the Sunnis take as article of faith.

Edict and Fate or Decision and Fate?

Actually Scholars are confused about the meanings and some do not distinguish between Qadha and Qadar...

In Arabic, a Qadhi is an official Judge, so he decides matters, when he decides them, they get qadar, i.e. get implemented (fate, result).

noshirk

Another thing would be the number of days, but I suppose that would deserve another thread. Howeve rI would like to read noshirk's view, since he seems to have studied the matter so thoroughly.

Salaam Huruf
here what you asked for.
it is of course my understanding.
peace

Salaam All

I have to do some remarks concerning what i have read here

1- Meaning of Ramadhan

. .
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( &#1591

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( &#1576

.
( &#1577

Well, we have two possible meanings for ramadhan. One is the "scorching heat" and other is filrs cloud/rain after heat.
Ramadan in spetember fit with the second one.

2- Ripes dates

according to this link (http//www.eurobroker.fr/dattes/) , harvest of date is between october and december.t
i verified information with specialists in north africa. they say harvest is october and november.

if we consider the ripe indication of quran, we are more near december
and 9 month before, we are near equinox (leilatou el qadr) of march.

we have also another argument (that can be considered as week).
introduction of Gospel of luke is interesting. It give an information confirmed by quran that i found nowhere else

Luke 1-20
20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

this is the sign given to Zachariah.
and this sign (Zachariah could not speak) is confirmed in two verses

341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

this part of gospel, enlighted by quran, indicates also that
Luke Chapter 1
26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Thus, we would have two "angels" descent (then two leylatou el qadr) seperated by six months.

Now, readers have to note that there is clear contradiction in quran for verses 19-10 and 3-41 i have mentionned.
It seems that Allah dont know that the sign (not be able to speak) is for three nights or three days.
The only way to remove the contradiction is to consider that Zachariah was fasting from speaking because fasting is
1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed A SAUM for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??

So, seems that we found a prophet making saoum of three days in september.

3-is islam a new religion ?

i find comfortable to find similarty between quran and older books.
some other understandings leads quite to the conclusion that islam is a new religion

4-What to do in ashor haram ?
this is a serious problem whether if and if not we consider Ramadan one of them.

I have and obstacle to enter is such complicated discussion since i have difficulties in english language
however, il will summarize my opinion.

Siyyam is spiritural retreat. as 2-185 says
....then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in MASAJID...
so devotion is masajid (whatever is) are required during day.

Saum is for thre days= length in with full moon appears full.

Saum is individual and occurs in ramadhan

Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
Hajj has two objectives. Nourish soul and body of poors.
So to give food (safa=livestck) and drinks (marwa).
and to give spiritual food by teachnings and debate.

3 kinds of particpants

Hojjajs (speakers/ debators) who come with arguments (hojajs)
Those making Omra (simple Listeners). They come to learn and hace to make saoum (no speak during lessons)
thos who assist for commercial purposes (9-19).

so hajj occurs 4 times a year, around equinoxes and solstices. But only ramadhan is for individual saoum.

Now, i will try to give a traduction to one of the more complicated verses in quran 2-196

this is complete verse 2-196

this is monotheist translation
2196 And conclude the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are secure, then whoever makes the visit, but decides to continue until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten - this is for those whose family is not resident at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

and accomplish Hajj and Omra but if you are prevented, then try to obtain what is possible of guidance.

Hady is reffering to teachings of words of Allah.

don't raise your heads until the lessons reach his target (that is the mind)

Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by Saoum (spiritual retreat/individual study) or giving a charity or a Nosk (something that make you more nearby to god)

amana is same rrot as moomin and no relation with security. Aim of Hajj is to give amana (that is teaching of god) to faithfull carriers of the message.
so verse is saying to who come to learn (making omra) to search for residual teachings (had'y) after the "official courses".

and if there is no possibilty for residual teaching then make a spiritual retreat for 7 days when returning home.
I suppose this to assimilate all what have been stuided during Hajj.
So, if ramadan is only three days (please note that the there days mention), the hajj periode is saoum three days for "listeners" + 7 personal revision days when returning home.

this is for those whose family/people is not resident at Masjid Haram (the place wenhere lessons are given)
So 7 seven residual days of individual study are not required for "listeners making only omra" whose family/people didnt assist lessons.
Why ?
simple because i suppose they have the duty to report to their people/family what that have heard in Hajj at their return.

and take prevention/refuge to Allah, and know that God is severe in retribution.

so, according to my understanding
Saoum/ramadan is required each year for 3 days.
Hajj is each quarter. it is forum/seminar with debators (hojjajs) and students (making omra) . 3 days official lessons (and saoum for listeners) + 7 days of individual study for students or report to absent people w )en returnning home.

and of course, Hajj can occurs also in ramadhan.

Peace

Hannibal

Peace all,

Here is an article (in French) that exposes the same ideas as brother noshirk but in a more detailed manner (for the arguments part) and with more mockery and sarcasm for the "translation parts"

http//nawaat.org/portail/2015/04/15/calendriers-et-fetes-religieuses-dans-le-coran/

I must say that my heart and mind are both on track with those explanations.
I'll be fasting 10 days starting 28th of September 2015.

May Allah guide us all

FreedomStands

Why ten days even? Why not 10 hours, or ten inhalations and exhalations?

Hannibal

Why ten days even? Why not 10 hours, or ten inhalations and exhalations?

FreedomStands,

2.185 says that those who could not fast Ramadan, can fast an amount (&#1577 of other days (3 days or more)
usually means a small numbers of days = between 3 and 10

The meaning of a few days is also repeated in 1184 (&#1578

And is further confirmed in 1203 God permit those in hurry during hajj to speed it up to 2 days instead of a few days (&#1578

As to why 10 ?
I'm still studying the number of due days (between 3 and 10), until I'm sure i'll fast a complete 10 days.

May Allah guide us all

FreedomStands

FreedomStands,

2.185 says that those who could not fast Ramadan, can fast an amount (&#1577 of other days (3 days or more)
usually means a small numbers of days = between 3 and 10

The meaning of a few days is also repeated in 1184 (&#1578

And is further confirmed in 1203 God permit those in hurry during hajj to speed it up to 2 days instead of a few days (&#1578

As to why 10 ?
I'm still studying the number of due days (between 3 and 10), until I'm sure i'll fast a complete 10 days.

May Allah guide us all

Do you have some medical problem?

O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil). 2183

2184 Fast for a specified number of days, but if any one among you is ill or on a journey, let him fast the same number of days later. For those who can fast only with extreme difficulty, there is a way to compensatethe feeding of a needy person. But he who does good of his own accord shall be well rewarded; but to fast is better for you, if you only knew.

2185 The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.

2186
AND IF My servants ask thee about Me - behold, I am near; I respond to the call of him who calls, whenever he calls unto Me let them, then, respond unto Me, and believe in Me, so that they might follow the right way.

2187 IT IS lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the fast they are as a garment for you, and you are as a garment for them. God is aware that you would have deprived yourselves of this right, and so He has turned unto you in His mercy and removed this hardship from you. Now, then, you may lie with them skin to skin, and avail yourselves of that which God has ordained for you, and eat and drink until you can discern the white streak of dawn against the blackness of night, and then resume fasting until nightfall; but do not lie with them skin to skin when you are about to abide in meditation in houses of worship. These are the bounds set by God do not, then, offend against them - it is thus that God makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might remain conscious of Him.

3335
VERILY, for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves , and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remember God unceasingly for them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.

589
GOD will not take you to task for oaths which you may have uttered without thought, but He will take you to task for oaths which you have sworn in earnest. Thus, the breaking of an oath must be atoned for by feeding ten needy persons with more or less the same food as you are wont to give to your own families, or by clothing them, or by freeing a human being from bondage; and he who has not the wherewithal shall fast for three days . This shall be the atonement for your oaths whenever you have sworn . But be mindful of your oaths!' Thus God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might have cause to be grateful.

595
O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. God forgives what is past for repetition God will exact from him the penalty. For God is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

al-Baqarah 2185
So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting,

inu It's called
inu a NEW MOON
inu CCause it's like a new moon is being
inu Formed
foxy then I dont even know what this 10 days thing is
inu And then fills up and then wanes away
inu So from one to the other is a MOON
inu People have been
inu Using this
inu Terminology
inu And measurement
inu Since TIME IMMEMORIAL
foxy saw a girl talking outside had pregnant belly and I went AHGH
foxy some version of ugh
foxy yeah
foxy I cant even read
foxy what they are writing
inu Hahaha
foxy its so long and weird and I don't know what they are saying
foxy but they are all apparently
inu Hahahahahahaha oh
foxy deeply convinced
inu That
inu REMINDS ME
foxy why not just FORGET ABOUT FASTING
inu Of
inu What they say about
inu What YOU WRITE
inu We're all BLOCKED
inu From understanding
inu Certain things a certain way
foxy haha yeah totally I feel the same way
foxy just like their eyes cross at my writing
foxy my eyes cross at their writing
foxy I can't even read it
foxy I don't LIE and claim I read it though
inu Haha, yeah
inu That's kind of like why I never really
inu Read much of the bible
inu It's just
inu Soooooo boring
inu And long
inu And has
inu Dumb stuff in it
inu Wrong things
inu Glaringly
inu BAd things
inu But that would be fun at least
inu If it was
inu More Packed
inu Action packed
inu Or something
inu Like if it was just all these funny violent injustices
inu In a row
inu That would be great
inu But it has to be written in the most LONG BORING MANNER POSSIBLE
inu With all this filler inbetween
inu And nothing happening
foxy Saum is for thre days= length in with full moon appears full.

Saum is individual and occurs in ramadhan

Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
Hajj has two objectives. Nourish soul and body of poors.
So to give food (safa=livestck) and drinks (marwa).
and to give spiritual food by teachnings and debate.
foxy http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607570.msg369870#msg369870 see they make it so hard to read
foxy quoting from freaking LUKE?
inu Hahahahah WHAT?
inu Hajj is a GROUP FEAST FOR THREE DAYS?
inu Not a HAJJ?
inu Not a pilgrimage to anywehre
inu HAha
foxy hahah
inu HAha but yeah
inu I guess
inu There is
inu Givingg meat to the poor
foxy their religion is so weird and corrupt
foxy just make stuff out of nowhere entirely
foxy and claim there is some rationale
inu Give spiritual food by teachings and debate
inu Hahaha
inu It's not even about that being such a bad idea
foxy I'll give spiritual food by shoving donuts in your mouth
inu But this systemy
inu Making stuff up
inu Crap
inu As if that's being said there
foxy haha yeah
inu Hahahahaha
foxy like
foxy if you have an idea
foxy just SAY IT
inu SHoving doughnuts
foxy why do you have to lie about the Qur'an
inu SIDEWAYS
inu So their tongue
inu Goes through the hole
inu Hahahaha quoting Luke
inu As Einstein said, the sublime truth should be both elegant and beautiful...
inu I have a tendency to accept explanations of truth that are simple and graceful.
inu Thank you for this elaborate study which FEELS right...
inu Peace
inu Hahahahahahaha
foxy hahahaha
inu HAhaha I'm trying to read this out loud and laughing
foxy hahahahaha
foxy its extremely funny that way
inu HAHAHA 2-197 is not saying before they were wrong here.
inu Hahahaha TORAH seems clear that first month is in spring
inu WHO CARES??!!
inu HAhahaha HAJJ OCCURS IN THE 4
inu in 28-27, hijaj (plural of hajj) is used to indicate unit of time. (8 hijajs or 10 hijaj)
inu so, as unit should not change to bo a good unit, it seems likely to say that a hajj unit of time is quarter.
inu HAHAHAH
inu Haha practicality and simplicity?
inu What about what the Qur'an says?
inu Why does SIMPLE matter
inu And what even is 'simple'?
inu IS
inu THIS CRAP
inu REALLY MORE SIMPLE THAN
inu SAYIN
inu ONE MONTH A YEAR?
inu CAUSE IT ACTUALLY SEEMS MORE COMPLICATED AND CONFUSING
inu It kind of reminds me of OCCAM'S RAzOR
inu Why is SIMPLICITY
inu Desired?
inu It doesn't have to be SIMPLE
inu But AS IT HAPPENS
inu YES IT IS PRETTY DAMN SIMPLE
inu The Qur'an calls to balance, I would say that as far as time measure is concerned, the balance is reached at equinoxes, obviously. That would be the fixing I would be more satisfied with in terms of reason and feeling.
inu HAhaha SHUT THE FUCK U
inu Does the Qur'an CALL TO BALANCE?
inu Where does it do that?
inu Does it say we have to fast when the day is always this length
inu Or blah blah
inu That people in different
inu LATITUDES
inu Or whatevver
inu MUST HAVE
inu THE SAME FAST TIME
inu DOIGN EQUAL EFFORT
inu Does it say anything about FAIRNESS?
inu IS THE WORLD
inu FAIR?
inu ALL THE SUDDEN
inu This is the same balance shit you were talking about
inu Ruth tendency
inu To say it's the same or should be the same
inu It involves even perhaps some OCD sort of desir
inu e
inu For
inu Symmetry
inu But the world is NOT
inu Symmetrical
inu It's not all orderly or balanced like this
inu The world is
inu The WORD IS
inu Whatever the hell ALLAH SAYS
inu Which doesn't have to beFAIR
inu Or follow ANY RULES AT ALL
inu Haha noshirk
inu Nice name
inu As to the qadr part, I also tend to agree. Qadr, stems from what I would deem "capacity", which is a measure and related to power because capacity is where we can or we cannot with respect to something. In this sense white related to the mizan, the balance which is fundamental in God's creation and which should rule our behaviour. In a way I could understand that leilat al qdr is when we reach the
inu balance, the inner and outer balance with God's power and ourselves, where we integrate.
inu HAHAHAHAHA
inu Trying to read this stuff out loud is really funny
inu As you said, when measuring we use something equivalent
inu Point Taken.
inu HAHA
inu They all talk so weird
inu HAhahaha ten inhalations and exhalations
foxy there is just no confusion, what is the problem
foxy "obviously"
foxy making me laugh lots with the fairness speech
foxy the Qur'an clearly states things are UNFAIR because of ALLAH and even the NATURE OF THINGS at their VERY BASIC is UNFAIR because ALLAH is not EQUAL to you and it even makes a big fuss with the whole slave and master speech it gives
foxy about how you wouldn't to your subordinates
foxy consider them equals