Ramadhan = ?

[Layth]

Peace,

This topis has been debated up and down, but I would like to re-ignite the discussions since we are in that time of year when the majority of Sunni/Shia are fasting and people who follow the Quran are inclined to rethink the topic everytime this happens.

There are a few schools of thought presented

1. The Sunni/Shia rotating lunar calender which has the fast for the entire month;
2. The Summer/full moon school of thought which has a fast of 3-10 days or one full month (depending on interpretation);
3. The Winter fast which some (myself included) adhere to and which carries a fast of 10 days.

Here is the literal translation of the main verses

2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

2184 A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

2185 A month of scorching, in which the Qur?an was sent down, as a guide to the people and as clarifications of the guidance and the criterion. Whoever of you attests to the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

The view I have presented on this forum is that the fast is a "few number of days" and that this number is 10 based on the wording "complete the count". The complete count we are told elsewhere in 2196 is 10.

The reasons I have gone with winter is the birth of Jesus which we are told occurred in the Summer (around August-September) when the dates are ripe in 1925 as we know Jesus was conceived in the Night of Decree as the Angels and the Spirit came down to Maryam (an event which only happens in the Night of Decree) = December.

Also, if we consider that December 20/21 is the longest night of the year - then that falls in-line with the mercy of God being extended for the longest period to His servants during that night.

Finally, for any of you who have fasted in the Summer - you will know that there is great hardship if you work a normal day and don't just lay in an air conditioned room - a contrast from the fast of Winter and the rule that God does not want to bring us hardship (2185).

[FreedomStands]

I started fasting June 1st, will carry through the mainstream Ramadan, and will conclude maybe at the end of the next month or whatever.

I fast by not eating from before sunrise to after sunset (sometimes longer than that though circumstantially, leading to possibly over 24 hour fasts, as the fasts here in Vancouver are very long anyway).

I don't fast to please God, but to discipline myself and ponder on the nature of the world, on suffering, and the plight of the animals (including people).

God is not in need of any of this, it is a meditative exercise, like the other exercise I practice, and one should always be deeply thoughtful and meditative in their stance, pondering things and exercising all the best qualities as well.

Really, my regular life is not too dissimilar from the fasting period anyway.

I practice the meditative exercise of worship throughout the day as well, again I do not do this for God, but for myself, everything I do is generally for myself and nothing I do is for God who is not in need of any of it, I am in need of God.

So that my metabolism stays running well and doesn't stagnate and start saving fat in starvation mode, I exercise throughout the fasting period and toil rigorously without food or water, which can be dangerous but it also puts me in the mindset of those who don't even have such an option.

When I break the fast, things are generally not very tasty even as one has kind of lost a taste for everything and food seems kind of pointless, and I thank God for the food and provision and that it is available for my survival.

A whole lot of people on this website seem to avoid these practices.

My other practices include being extremely courteous, kind, smiling, nice, gift giving, charitable, patient, being extraordinarily caring and going out of the way to find every opportunity to help people, reduce anxiety, and do things that would generally be appreciated and gain merit. I do not do this in the hope of reward from the people or from God, but I do it because I hate evilness, suffering, and anxiety, and to make my experiences and whatever is seen by my eyes and heard by my ears as pleasant as I possibly can, to beautify what is before me whenever I can and contribute only in goodness rather than misery. If I am rewarded for any of it, I do not know, but I can only hope for goodness now and later, but I have no guarantee that I will succeed in that regard and such keeps me working humbly and diligently.

This is my Jihad and my Islam.

Who is like me?

[Layth]

Fasting like Salat is decreed for the believers - so not sure why people fuss over an advanced tactic that is not meant for the majority.

[FreedomStands]

Fasting like Salat is decreed for the believers - so not sure why people fuss over an advanced tactic that is not meant for the majority.

Yeah, it is true that it is not meant for the majority, the majority not being believers and not meant to fast or perform salat.

In that sense, those practitioners of these things can (as it has been said) be considered somewhat honored by God, though in the eyes of others (as it has also been said) we appear fools, masochists, and our practices worthless.

I find there to be worth in the immediate in the case of both practices, but what use will any of those things be to people who don't even think deeply or much at all?

To them it is simply motions and not eating for a while, whereas I believe one should be actively thinking and deeply meditating and pondering on these practices and during these practices.

This is the same in everything though. The ones who don't think much or think well are the ones who wander around even less understanding than cattle. They stuff their faces with food without giving it a second thought, have profanities in between every word they speak, insult and ridicule their own friends and family causing great misery, stomp on living creatures when they see them traveling to get food or do whatever they are doing. To hell with such people, I truly despise them.

One can never explain Islam to them. Calling to them is like calling from a place far, far away.

[huruf]

What brother Layth says may be good for northern hemisphere. Right now I am in Paraguay and having a comfortable fast til 17.20 in the afternoon, nothing killing. So that would amount at fixing different hours for every geographical location. That is one of the reasons why I liked noshirks argument in another thread whicht puts the timing at the equinox, which would equally comfortable or uncomfortable for everybody.

By the way, a value which I find in ramadan is that it helps to break habits.

Habit is a crutch a very welcome crutch to go through life. they set a frame for us to achieve things. But we may tend to become slaves of habit instead of the habits being our slaves. So, something like ramadan helps us free us from habits. and the habit to eat is about the most entrenched habit we have, at least that I have. Food and my pink, fucsia rather, computer are my lovers. I could never cheat them.

I wonder whether I should fast on pink computers too.

Salaam

[noble]

Peace @Layth

You can also add to it

4. Ramadan based on Equinox, as 7th full moon after the Spring Equinox
   according to some Ijtihad by Bro noshirk

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607570.0

I am now attracted to this insight

Nabil

[FreedomStands]

What brother Layth says may be good for northern hemisphere. Right now I am in Paraguay and having a comfortable fast til 17.20 in the afternoon, nothing killing. So that would amount at fixing different hours for every geographical location. That is one of the reasons why I liked noshirks argument in another thread whicht puts the timing at the equinox, which would equally comfortable or uncomfortable for everybody.

By the way, a value which I find in ramadan is that it helps to break habits.

Habit is a crutch a very welcome crutch to go through life. they set a frame for us to achieve things. But we may tend to become slaves of habit instead of the habits being our slaves. So, something like ramadan helps us free us from habits. and the habit to eat is about the most entrenched habit we have, at least that I have. Food and my pink, fucsia rather, computer are my lovers. I could never cheat them.

I wonder whether I should fast on pink computers too.

Salaam

Is Ramadan about comfort? To simulate the comfort the people without food have?

[noble]

Is Ramadan about comfort? To simulate the comfort the people without food have?

I wouldn't worry about comfort or discomfort, it is a Godly imperative, same as not eating the flesh of pork, so we hear and we obey is the best course, no argument, no lucubrations, no trying to be funny

Peace

[FreedomStands]

I wouldn't worry about comfort or discomfort, it is a Godly imperative, same as not eating the flesh of pork, so we hear and we obey is the best course, no argument, no lucubrations, no trying to be funny

Peace

You only fast a few days for health reasons though right? Do you do the charity thing to replace the fasts or do them with separations so that you make up the 28 or 30 fasts?

[Layth]

Peace,

I have had a look at the thread by "noshirk".

The argument has merit as indeed the word "qadr" can mean "measure" and and timing of September is when the rains hit the dry/hot earth (Ramadhan?).

What I don't find agreement with is the definition of "shahr" as "full moon" since the word is meant as an indication of time (the fasting of 2 months does not mean the fasting of 2 full moons - rather it is 60 days). If we were to speak about the moon, its cycle begins with the crescent (old palm sheath) and not the full moon - 3639.

I also agree with the 4 restricted months beginning in the Spring Equinox.

[noble]

Peace,

I have had a look at the thread by "noshirk".

The argument has merit as indeed the word "qadr" can mean "measure" and and timing of September is when the rains hit the dry/hot earth (Ramadhan?).

What I don't find agreement with is the definition of "shahr" as "full moon" since the word is meant as an indication of time (the fasting of 2 months does not mean the fasting of 2 full moons - rather it is 60 days). If we were to speak about the moon, its cycle begins with the crescent (old palm sheath) and not the full moon - 3639.

I also agree with the 4 restricted months beginning in the Spring Equinox.

Peace Bro,

and thanks for adding to the confusion confused

[Layth]

LOL

The silver lining is that most threads I have looked at now agree that the "Restricted Months" begin with the Spring Equinox and last for 4 months...That is a breakthrough is establishing our synchronization with God's calender system that protects nature and people.

[noble]

LOL

The silver lining is that most threads I have looked at now agree that the "Restricted Months" begin with the Spring Equinox and last for 4 months...That is a breakthrough is establishing our synchronization with God's calender system that protects nature and people.

I agree sun

[Layth]

If we were to go with noshirk's view - what would be the translation of Ramadan "Scorching or Scorched" or something different?

[noble]

If we were to go with noshirk's view - what would be the translation of Ramadan "Scorching or Scorched" or something different?

I wanted to answer you on this about the verse of Quran on Ramadan, and the word shahr.

If I recall, in the verse, it uses 3idatun for the period, not shahr, so I am still unsure about the meaning for shahr, is it a period too? if it were, why not then say akmilu (or atimmu?) alshahr, instead of al3idatu?

In programming, in C++ they got that thing about overloading operators, by extending their function, so a marker can also signify a period, and so Ramadan could both mean the beginning of a period and the period itself.

and strictly, phonetically, it is not Ramadan, but Ramadhan, with a dh not a d )

in September, there is no scorching heat, nor in December, so scorching might have nothing to do with it? scorched might be better, as that will be the result in September at the end of the heat period where indeed the place will look golden from the lack of water with the colour of the dried up vegetation... ready for the rains for relief.

[herbman]

Peace,

I have had a look at the thread by "noshirk".

The argument has merit as indeed the word "qadr" can mean "measure" and and timing of September is when the rains hit the dry/hot earth (Ramadhan?).

What I don't find agreement with is the definition of "shahr" as "full moon" since the word is meant as an indication of time (the fasting of 2 months does not mean the fasting of 2 full moons - rather it is 60 days). If we were to speak about the moon, its cycle begins with the crescent (old palm sheath) and not the full moon - 3639.

I also agree with the 4 restricted months beginning in the Spring Equinox.

if sawm is during 3 days it make sense!--> the fasting of 2 full moons 2 x 3 days during the full moon

[noshirk]

Salaam All

I have to do some remarks concerning what i have read here

1- Meaning of Ramadhan

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Well, we have two possible meanings for ramadhan. One is the "scorching heat" and other is first cloud/rain after heat.
Ramadan in spetember fit with the second one.

2- Ripes dates

according to this link (http//www.eurobroker.fr/dattes/) , harvest of date is between october and december.t
i verified information with specialists in north africa. they say harvest is october and november.

if we consider the ripe indication of quran, we are more near december
and 9 month before, we are near equinox (leilatou el qadr) of march.

we have also another argument (that can be considered as week).
introduction of Gospel of luke is interesting. It give an information confirmed by quran that i found nowhere else

Luke 1-20
20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

this is the sign given to Zachariah.
and this sign (Zachariah could not speak) is confirmed in two verses

341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

this part of gospel, enlighted by quran, indicates also that
Luke Chapter 1
26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Thus, we would have two "angels" descent (then two leylatou el qadr) seperated by six months.

Now, readers have to note that there is clear contradiction in quran for verses 19-10 and 3-41 i have mentionned.
It seems that Allah dont know that the sign (not be able to speak) is for three nights or three days.
The only way to remove the contradiction is to consider that Zachariah was fasting from speaking because fasting is
1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed A SAUM for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??

So starting with ripe dates,, seems that we found a prophet making saoum of three days in september.

3-is islam a new religion ?

i find comfortable to find similarty between quran and older books.
some other understandings leads quite to the conclusion that islam is a new religion

4-What to do in ashor haram ?
this is a serious problem whether if and if not we consider Ramadan one of them.

I have and obstacle to enter is such complicated discussion since i have difficulties in english language
however, il will summarize my opinion.

Siyyam is spiritural retreat. as 2-185 says
....then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in MASAJID...
so devotion is masajid (whatever is) are required during day.

Saum is for thre days= length in with full moon appears full.

Saum is individual and occurs in ramadhan

Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
Hajj has two objectives. Nourish soul and body of poors.
So to give food (safa=livestck) and drinks (marwa).
and to give spiritual food by teachnings and debate.

3 kinds of particpants

• Hojjajs (speakers/ debators) who come with arguments (hojajs)
• Those making Omra (simple Listeners). They come to learn and hace to make saoum (no speak during lessons)
• thos who assist for commercial purposes (9-19).

so hajj occurs 4 times a year, around equinoxes and solstices. But only ramadhan is for individual saoum.

Now, i will try to give a traduction to one of the more complicated verses in quran 2-196

this is complete verse 2-196

this is monotheist translation
2196 And conclude the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are secure, then whoever makes the visit, but decides to continue until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten - this is for those whose family is not resident at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

and accomplish Hajj and Omra but if you are prevented, then try to obtain what is possible of guidance.

Hady is reffering to teachings of words of Allah.

don't raise your heads until the lessons reach his target (that is the mind)

Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by Saoum (spiritual retreat/individual study) or giving a charity or a Nosk (something that make you more nearby to god)

amana is same rrot as moomin and no relation with security. Aim of Hajj is to give amana (that is teaching of god) to faithfull carriers of the message.
so verse is saying to who come to learn (making omra) to search for residual teachings (had'y) after the "official courses".

and if there is no possibilty for residual teaching then make a spiritual retreat for 7 days when returning home.
I suppose this to assimilate all what have been stuided during Hajj.
So, if ramadan is only three days (please note that the there days mention), the hajj periode is saoum three days for "listeners" + 7 personal revision days when returning home.

this is for those whose family/people is not resident at Masjid Haram (the place wenhere lessons are given)
So 7 seven residual days of individual study are not required for "listeners making only omra" whose family/people didnt assist lessons.
Why ?
simple because i suppose they have the duty to report to their people/family what that have heard in Hajj at their return.

and take prevention/refuge to Allah, and know that God is severe in retribution.

so, according to my understanding
Saoum/ramadan is required each year for 3 days.
Hajj is each quarter. it is forum/seminar with debators (hojjajs) and students (making omra) . 3 days official lessons (and saoum for listeners) + 7 days of individual study for students or report to absent people w )en returnning home.

and of course, Hajj can occurs also in ramadhan.

Peace

[noshirk]

if sawm is during 3 days it make sense!--> the fasting of 2 full moons 2 x 3 days during the full moon

agree.
peace

[noble]

Peace Bro,

Thanks for the extra clarifications, cannot say I agree or disagree, will need to look this through, and think.

[herbman]

Peace

Saum is for thre days= length in with full moon appears full.

Saum is individual and occurs in ramadhan

Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
Hajj has two objectives. Nourish soul and body of poors.
So to give food (safa=livestck) and drinks (marwa).
and to give spiritual food by teachnings and debate.

What about if we put all pieces together, first you have a start --> laylat alqadar during Ramadhan which is a deep study of the Book, then after come hajj (could be debate) to debate what you have been studying!!!

Question is why
This is meant for developed societies learn/criticize/debate and than choose the best option

• this would answer question about abortions, bio ethic, societal problems, etc etc...
  How many debates do you see in so called Muslim countries? It is like that full stop , no why no how we don't care even what you think!!! This leads to the situation we are facing today in muslim countries.
  At the contrary "developed" countries have the party meeting takinkg place in late summer to debate about societal problems in France for example they use to call it Summer University
  https//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit%C3%A9_d'%C3%A9t%C3%A9

Peace