WHAT DOES QURAN SAY ABOUT BIBLICAL CORRUPTION
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If there is an idol known as Jesus, it may be best to take a large stone and crush it's head.
"Ye are Gods" is a pretty misleading justification. I think I would've rallied for the execution of the blasphemer, then the burning of the Torah and an invitation to being proper Roman citizens.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEakV0ZqRqI
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Is that your choice of course of action, Freedomstands?
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OnlyOneGod,
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
"Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum."
By Jesus of the Gospels I obviously meant the interpretation of Jesus as his followers of the Gospels portray. Our own interpretation of the Gospels is another matter all together.
"The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you"."
why do you believe that this part of the torah mentioning "I AM THAT I AM" is also not a mix of falsehood, and bad interpretations just like the Quran? Do you have any analysis to back up its authenticity or truth? Are you sure on the aramaic translation that you got?
"That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic."
Who says that I'm looking for a separate God? There is only one God.
"The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'."
Quran is also based on those ten commandments that you quote (although some of your ten commandments seem to be more your own creation rather than Gods)?
"Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning"
So do you believe that Muhammad also elaborated on a lot of things mentioned in the ten commandments?
"He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment."
And have you checked whether this verse of the bible in original Aramaic translates to "love". I know how you are so strict on true translations and thus I ask. Do you think that Quran and Allah do not talk about love in the Quran?
"Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one."
So you think that Quran is a sadistic and violent book. Where does Quran tell us to kill people who do not perform salat?
It incites hatred towards the mushrik and the kafir? Really? Because it didn't incite me to do those things. Can you elaborate on where and when you were incited by the Quran to act in such ways?"Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed."
Please show to me and the world the exact verses that were leading you towards violence. And how exactly are you re-translating those verses to mean something more to your liking. Please concentrate on these violent verses and not on your re-interpretations of salaat or qibla etc.
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By Jesus of the Gospels I obviously meant the interpretation of Jesus as his followers of the Gospels portray. Our own interpretation of the Gospels is another matter all together.
Then be also humble when by the Islam of Qur'an the majority of the world "obviously means" the interpretation of Qur'an as the majority of followers of Qur'an portray (or the official Islamic Clergy portray). Our own interpretation of the Qur'an is another matter all together.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Is that your choice of course of action, Freedomstands?
Certainly! It is always my choice to kick butt!
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Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanWhen I say Jesus of the Gospels , I meant what the adherents of that faith believe in. Not how we interpret those very same Gospels.
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OnlyOneGod,
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
"Arman gave your answer quite well already."
And I have given him my nice answer as well.
"The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew"."
You believe that and yet still talk about comparing your re-interpretation of the Quran to the versions of the Torah. Should you not start by re-interpreting the older texts to assertain their authenticity before moving on to the "newer" texts to make you claims?
"Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum."
Which aramaic text did you use to get this meaning from?
"There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you"."
Kindly share that original aramaic text with us so we can also check the existence of "I AM THAT I AM" etc.
"No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection."
And which part of the Torah told you that there is no need for worship. We cannot discuss if you do not reference your claims.
"Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning"
So would it be acceptable to you if Muhammad (PBUH) elaborated on many more of these things without changing their fundamental meanings?
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References!? YOU WANT REFERENCES?! YOU SHALL NOT TEST THE LORD YOUR GHOD!
Haha.
Here, I'll help to make it easier for people to go and find these things maybe
1411
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.What!? Mention of "evidence"? Uh oh!
"Aramaic Bible in Plain English
?Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me, otherwise believe because of the works.?Exodus 314
"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites 'I AM has sent me to you.'"John 858
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"http//biblehub.com/lexicon/exodus/3-14.htm
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
Yeah, it is no big deal to me either.
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When I say Jesus of the Gospels , I meant what the adherents of that faith believe in. Not how we interpret those very same Gospels.
Salamun Alaikum.
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Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?
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If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?
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If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?
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If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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Salamun Alaikum.
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Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?
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If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?
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If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?
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If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanW/Salaam,
"1. Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?"
I don't know about their beliefs but are you talking about biblical unitarianism?
"2. If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?"
The Christian interpretation of the Gospel is only one aspect of the issue for me. The other major one is that I believe that the Gospel (in its current form) constitutes 5% teachings of Jesus and 95% christian "Hadith" literature written by people other than the Prophet Jesus (PBUH). If I am going to start believing in Christian Hadith then why deny the Muslim hadith which has comparatively much greater credibility in its preservation?
"3. If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?"
I would give the bible the very same scrutiny if I believed that the bible had been preserved in its original form. Right now it is near impossible to judge what is original and what is a later addition. The only yardstick I have is the Quran. If the verses of the bible match what the Quran says then I have no issue in following both. However, when things like, Jesus dieng on the cross for our sins show up in the bible, or God wrestling with Jacob etc then I set it aside and consider it be a faulty book.
"4. If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?"
This has nothing to do with differentiating between the Messengers. All messengers were great men of God and brought us the same message. The last message i.e. the Quran is the only one in its complete and unaltered form. Hence, we use it to determine the right and the wrong within the scripture books of the Jews and the Christians.
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The Christian interpretation of the Gospel is only one aspect of the issue for me. The other major one is that I believe that the Gospel (in its current form) constitutes 5% teachings of Jesus and 95% christian "Hadith" literature written by people other than the Prophet Jesus (PBUH). If I am going to start believing in Christian Hadith then why deny the Muslim hadith which has comparatively much greater credibility in its preservation?
Salam UserOnlyOneGod and others.
546 And We made Jesus son of Mary follow their footsteps - confirming what was up until him (literally between his hands) of the Torah, and We gave him the Gospel ? in it guidance and light, and confirming what was up until it (literally between its hands) of the Torah and guidance and instruction for the conscious.
547 And let the fraternity of the Gospel judge with what Allah has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what Allah has sent down then they are the ones ? they are willfully disobeying.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The Gospels we have with us today were canonized in third and fourth century before Qur'an was sent down. So per my humble understanding Qur'an does not support the idea of wholesale rejection of the Gospels.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The Biblical Gospels are of higher integrity than 5%. It is quite thorough actually, but the translations are poor and definitions misinterpreted.
Son of God is entirely on spiritual level where God is the "Father" of the Spirit inherent in every human soul. And only those who "separate the Spirit from the flesh" (its delusional effect) can see the Father and Spirit. Father does not imply any gender but the word stems from the Semitic languages and would mean that you are an initiator of life.
Be well
Emanuel -
Yes thankyou .. somehow some people here don't understand the difference between the two. Denying the authenticity of the bible in its current form has nothing to do with denying the prophethood or the validity of Jesus (pbuh) or Moses (pbuh).
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You say they were canonized in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Do you then accept that they were written by people other than Jesus? Is this not their "hadith" literature?
Is this the unaltered injil mentioned in the Quran?
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Although the word Gospel means similar to Injeel, plus in some languages you say Evangelicum, for example, in Swedish which is a form of the original Injeel. Ev - enjeel - icum.
Be well
Emanuel -
The words mae mean whatever they mean, but the question is what is being spoken of when they are used. The injil given to Isa cannot be the four books of the gospel writers which are comprised the New testament together with many other writings from different authors. They might be coments to the injil some collection of quotes from the injil without any quotation marks...
but they are not the injil.
Salaam
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Well, the message Eisua came with is what people call Enjeel. The Biblical Gospels are testimonies written by his followers, and the four canonical ones are not the best ones. There are unofficial versions that convey a better account.
But there is no real Enjeel just as no Torateh. People could look forever. The Ten Commandments could be regarded as Torateh.
People always look for religious rules but there simply is no more than the decree of ten statutes. Quran is just a compilation with Wisdom on how to deal with the Ten Commandments, just as what Eisua came with. Plus Quran explains the nature of "God" very well, to the point that what Eisua said about God comes forth very well. I consider the translation of the word Quran to be 'The Testament'.
And Eisua's name means something like Dispenser (of knowledge).
And what I think Injeel refers to is the announcement "Reform, the Kingdom is at hand" and that he showed the way. He elaborated on the ancient decree.
Be well
Emanuel