Will our sins/wrongdoings be forgiven just by praying for forgiveness?

runninglikezebras

Iblis was said to be of the jinn, and everything it seems does exactly what Allah wills, including Iblis, like you said.

A jinn sneaking in among the malaika? God orders the malaika to sujud. Not the jinn. The argument of association by exclusion is very weak imho. Even if it's valid, if he was a jinn he wasn't addressed to sujud to begin with. And his defense would be supereasy like God be like "yo iblis why you no getting on yo knees buddy?" Iblis be like "hey but wait a minute, you didnt even mention me ... i'm a jinn, not a malaika. Booyakasha! In your face!" God be like "oh I see, then you too!" etc.

Sneaky little jinn... always sneaking around...

Peace

FreedomStands

Our Rabb's words give us following picture in 711-12

(&#65279 (

Traditional translation by Taqi Usmani

We created you, then gave you a shape, then We said to the angels, ?Prostrate yourselves before ?Adam.? So, they all prostrated themselves, except Iblis (Satan). He did not join those who fell prostrate. (11) Allah said, ?What has prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?? He said, ?I am better than him. You have created me of fire, and created him of clay.? (12)

So Iblis was commanded to prostrate and not otherwise.

May our Rabb guide us to His Guidance

Yep, and many are commanded things by Allah in the Qur'an, they do not follow it. It is Allah's will that they do not follow it, Allah's will doesn't fail. If Allah willed it, they would follow it or the command. That does not mean not following it is good for them, but whoever Allah has made to err, it is Allah who can harm freely whoever, help freely whoever.

runninglikezebras

Yep, and many are commanded things by Allah in the Qur'an, they do not follow it. It is Allah's will that they do not follow it, Allah's will doesn't fail. If Allah willed it, they would follow it or the command. That does not mean not following it is good for them, but whoever Allah has made to err, it is Allah who can harm freely whoever, help freely whoever.

Question is are there legitimate reasons to err? Err has negative connotation. The question concerning Iblis is not a judgment in either bad or wrong but arrogance or rightful pride. Look at Iblis' motivation of his act he warns God this new creation of His will not remain loyal. Whether that was rightful pride, or arrogance is a matter of time. Every decision we make in our lives will affect that outcome and will be used as evidence in Iblis trial.

Peace

Novice

Yep, and many are commanded things by Allah in the Qur'an, they do not follow it. It is Allah's will that they do not follow it, Allah's will doesn't fail. If Allah willed it, they would follow it or the command. That does not mean not following it is good for them, but whoever Allah has made to err, it is Allah who can harm freely whoever, help freely whoever.

This is what Iblis said when he disobeyed the command putting responsibility of his wrong on God.

(
He said, ?Now that You have led me astray, I will certainly sit for them (in ambush) on Your straight path.
(716)

runninglikezebras

This is what Iblis said when he disobeyed the command putting responsibility of his wrong on God.

(
He said, ?Now that You have led me astray, I will certainly sit for them (in ambush) on Your straight path.
(716)

Way better translation. God leads Iblis astray and makes him sit for them on Gods straight path. It is what Iblis was made to do. There is no good or wrong in it. Iblis is prevented from obeying an order. He is not disobeying God by doing so as he is led astray by Gods will.

Peace

Novice

If you think that is True novice you are contradicted by Quran where it states Iblis is given respite.

One can not judge an act if God decreed respite of judgment.

Was the respite for judgement or to give time till day of resurrection to misguide people from straight path?

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He said, ?Then give me respite until a day when all will be resurrected. (14) He (Allah) said, ?You are granted respite??. (15) He said, ?Now that You have led me astray, I will certainly sit for them (in ambush) on Your straight path. (16) Then I will come upon them from their front side and from their behind, and from their right and from their left. You will not find most of them grateful. (17) (Not my translation.)

Not only does your understanding make Quran contradict. It also implies Adam, and all his progeny - including you - are already in the wrong. This logic demands, because the same respite was given to Adam and everyone of us.

What is your evidence for red part above from Quran?

So congratulations you've just condemned yourself to hell already, together with Iblis.

Only our Rabb knows who is condemned to hell.

Novice

Way better translation. God leads Iblis astray and makes him sit for them on Gods straight path. It is what Iblis was made to do. There is no good or wrong in it. Iblis is prevented from obeying an order. He is not disobeying God by doing so as he is led astray by Gods will. Peace

Brother these were words of iblis. He was putting blame on God for his disobedience. If it was God's will then why did God ask him this

(&#65279 (

We created you, then gave you a shape, then We said to the angels, ?Prostrate yourselves before ?Adam.? So, they all prostrated themselves, except Iblis (Satan). He did not join those who fell prostrate. (11) Allah said, ?What has prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?? He said, ?I am better than him. You have created me of fire, and created him of clay.? (712) (not my translation)

Iblis was commanded to prostrate and not otherwise.

runninglikezebras

fabiizzatika
"Then by Your might REM ? prefixed resumption particle
P ? prefixed preposition bi
N ? genitive feminine noun
PRON ? 2nd person masculine singular possessive pronoun

(38823)
la-ugh'wiyannahum
I will surely mislead them EMPH ? emphatic prefix lm
V ? 1st person singular (form IV) imperfect verb
EMPH ? emphatic suffix nn
PRON ? 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun

??
(38824)
ajmana
all.

Then by Your Might (Gods Might). Iblis makes no accusations towards God.

Peace

runninglikezebras

Was the respite for judgement or to give time till day of resurrection to misguide people from straight path?

(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (

He said, ?Then give me respite until a day when all will be resurrected. (14) He (Allah) said, ?You are granted respite??. (15) He said, ?Now that You have led me astray, I will certainly sit for them (in ambush) on Your straight path. (16) Then I will come upon them from their front side and from their behind, and from their right and from their left. You will not find most of them grateful. (17) (Not my translation.)

What is your evidence for red part above from Quran?

Only our Rabb knows who is condemned to hell.

(7246)
walakum
And for you CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
P ? prefixed preposition lm
PRON ? 2nd person masculine plural personal pronoun

(7247)
f
in P ? preposition

(724
l-ari
the earth N ? genitive feminine noun Earth

(7249)
mus'taqarrun
(is) a dwelling place N ? nominative masculine indefinite (form X) passive participle

(72410)
wamatun
and livelihood CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
N ? nominative masculine indefinite noun

(72411)
il
for P ? preposition

(72412)
nin
a time." N ? genitive masculine indefinite noun

runninglikezebras

(32281)
wayaqlna
And they say, CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
V ? 3rd person masculine plural imperfect verb
PRON ? subject pronoun

(32282)
mat
"When (will be) INTG ? interrogative noun

(32283)
hdh
this DEM ? masculine singular demonstrative pronoun

(32284)
l-fatu
decision, N ? nominative masculine noun

(32285)
in
if COND ? conditional particle

(32286)
kuntum
you are V ? 2nd person masculine plural perfect verb
PRON ? subject pronoun
??
(32287)
diqna
truthful?" N ? accusative masculine plural active participle

(32291)
qul
Say, V ? 2nd person masculine singular imperative verb

(32292)
yawma
"(On the) Day N ? accusative masculine noun

(32293)
l-fati
(of) the Decision, N ? genitive masculine noun

(32294)
l
not NEG ? negative particle

(32295)
yanfau
will benefit V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb

(32296)
alladhna
those who REL ? masculine plural relative pronoun

(32297)
kafar
disbelieve V ? 3rd person masculine plural perfect verb
PRON ? subject pronoun

(3229
mnuhum
their belief N ? nominative masculine (form IV) verbal noun
PRON ? 3rd person masculine plural possessive pronoun
??
(32299)
wal
and not CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
NEG ? negative particle

(322910)
hum
they PRON ? 3rd person masculine plural personal pronoun

(322911)
yunarna
will be granted respite." V ? 3rd person masculine plural (form IV) passive imperfect verb
PRON ? subject pronoun

(32301)
fa-ari
So turn away REM ? prefixed resumption particle
V ? 2nd person masculine singular (form IV) imperative verb

(32302)
anhum
from them P ? preposition
PRON ? 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun

(32303)
wa-intair
and wait. CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
V ? 2nd person masculine singular (form VIII) imperative verb

(32304)
innahum
Indeed, they ACC ? accusative particle
PRON ? 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun
?? ??
(32305)
muntairna
(are) waiting.

FreedomStands

Was the respite for judgement or to give time till day of resurrection to misguide people from straight path?

(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (

Only our Rabb knows who is condemned to hell.

Yes, please read this these things very slowly and carefully and then help me out. Do not skim it, just slowly look and read the 4 articles and try to understand them without jumping to conclusions, look at the implications that are being mentioned, and focus on the implications of "saying otherwise" than that, then come and help me if there is an issue

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607697.msg373785#new

The four threads linked there have numerous quotes, and the quotes don't even matter too much to me, it is what happens by implication when people suggest otherwise. It takes sophisticated thinking, so you need to really use your mind on this and it will help me out then.

Novice

Then by Your Might (Gods Might). Iblis makes no accusations towards God.

Here iblis is declaring his plan making God's might a witness because if God decides to interfere iblis cannot do anything.

But in 716 iblis is clearly blaming God for his disobedience.

(

Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong in understanding Quran. We all are free to get guidance the way we want it. So my understanding is different from yours and only God knows who is on the right path.

runninglikezebras

Here iblis is declaring his plan making God's might a witness because if God decides to interfere iblis cannot do anything.

But in 716 iblis is clearly blaming God for his disobedience.

(

Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong in understanding Quran. We all are free to get guidance the way we want it. So my understanding is different from yours and only God knows who is on the right path.

Iblis is not blaming anyone. Iblis is stating a simple fact he was prevented to obey the order because of Gods will. This is a simple truth that does not accuse anyone of anything.

Peace

Novice

(7246)
walakum
And for you CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
P ? prefixed preposition lm
PRON ? 2nd person masculine plural personal pronoun

(7247)
f
in P ? preposition

(724
l-ari
the earth N ? genitive feminine noun Earth

(7249)
mus'taqarrun
(is) a dwelling place N ? nominative masculine indefinite (form X) passive participle

(72410)
wamatun
and livelihood CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
N ? nominative masculine indefinite noun

(72411)
il
for P ? preposition

(72412)
nin
a time." N ? genitive masculine indefinite noun

Brother these are two different things.

Iblis is given respite to misguide people until the Day of Resurrection.

We humans are given time to live on al-Ardh till the Day of Resurrection to give zaka to our nafs and not to misguide others.

runninglikezebras

Sure we have different tasks. But Iblis is not a human nor a jinn. He is a Malaika and can only obey Gods command. Even if that command involves disobeying a command to sujud.

Iblis will not be judged by his salaat, zakaat or whatever you think will be used to judge us. He will be judged on one single thing how many did you manage to led astray? The more he achieved to led astray the more he was entitled to refusal to sujud.

Peace

FreedomStands

Here iblis is declaring his plan making God's might a witness because if God decides to interfere iblis cannot do anything.

But in 716 iblis is clearly blaming God for his disobedience.

(

Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong in understanding Quran. We all are free to get guidance the way we want it. So my understanding is different from yours and only God knows who is on the right path.

1823
Nor say of anything, "I shall be sure to do so and so tomorrow"-
1824
Except, "If Allah wills." And remember your Lord when you forget and say, "Perhaps will guide me my Lord to a nearer than this right way."

8129
And not you will except that wills Allah, Lord (of) the worlds.

Is Iblis always wrong?

1422
And will say the Shaitaan, when has been decided the matter, "Indeed, Allah promised you a promise (of) truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But not I had over you any authority except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So (do) not blame me, but blame yourselves. Not (can) I (be) your helper and not you (can) (be) my helper. Indeed, I deny your association of me (with Allah) before. Indeed, the wrongdoers, for them (is) a punishment painful."

No, Satan does not "always lie" "everything Iblis says is a lie" no. He lies to humans, he doesn't lie in the Qur'an in these various statements.

226
Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say What is it that Allah means by this parable He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,

Iblis was not lying in what he said, it is Allah who sent him astray, there is no other power, or was it "By Chance" and "Chance" is the power that determined it, not Allah?

Please read these 4 articles carefully and thoroughly, do not skim them please

First what I have written here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg373332#msg373332

then what I have written here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg371947#msg371947

and what I have written here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607626.msg371082#msg371082

as well as what I have written here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362116#msg362116

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to slowly and carefully read those and parse them for their logic and view them in all ways possible.

Novice