Is it zina?
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
I never disrespected you. I never said you made a wrong translation. I was very careful to say what I said. I never said that you have deceived.
You quoted a translation by someone else. I was calling that translator a deceiver and not that you are deceiving, and I was trying to give you sincere advice to be careful.
If someone is robbed and I say he has been robbed, am I disrespecting him? Then if I give him sincere advice how to take necessary precautions next time, is that disrespecting him?
You are the one ad homining me by falsely accusing me of disrespecting you. If you ad hominem me again like this, I am sorry I won't be able to participate in a discussion with you. I have always respected you.
I am not going to make any more posts in this thread. You have really disrespected me by falsely accusing me of having disrespected you, and I am very upset about that.
I was up until 2 am last night spending hours writing that post, just for you, and this is how I am treated for making a sincere effort. I had to get up early today and didn't get enough sleep. I didn't have to go out of my way like that.
Actually I am done with this forum for now and I am going to take a break for a while.
Keep up the good work and may ALLAH bless you for your efforts.
Peace and best regards.
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I am not going to make any more posts in this thread. You have really disrespected me by falsely accusing me of having disrespected you, and I am very upset about that.
I was up until 2 am last night spending hours writing that post, just for you, and this is how I am treated for making a sincere effort. I had to get up early today and didn't get enough sleep. I didn't have to go out of my way like that.
Actually I am done with this forum for now and I am going to take a break for a while.
No, please don't leave, truthseeker11! (
Perhaps there's misunderstanding between you and Hiroshi, I hope we can fix this.
I think you both should be good friends - I truly hope so. Please don't lose a good relationship just because of this issue.
Peace.
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Peace truthseeker11,
You told me that I have been deceived 4 times (in your post). And that is why I reacted the way I reacted. Perhaps your intention was good. If that is the case, then I misunderstood your intention. I guess I overreacted. I just wanted to tell you that I don't like being called deceived. That's all. But perhaps I should have told you through a PM instead. I am an imperfect human being. And I often make mistakes. I did not mean to make you upset my friend. No hard feelings.
I never directly said that you disrespected me. Nowhere in my post did I say the following "You have disrespected me." Therefore I don't think that I have disrespected you. I appreciated your post and appreciated the advice you gave me about taking necessary precautions the next time. I thought your post was a good post. And I will answer your post in due time (in the future). You have written a lot of good posts in this forum. Believe me. And apart from telling me that I have been "deceived" (in your post), I liked your post. As mentioned earlier, I don't think that I have disrespected you. Actually, I respect you a lot man. Someone who does not respect you, would probably resort to name calling and insults. Right? But I did not do that. And I never do that. Because I don't like to hurt anyone or say/do something that is not right. I believe in being kind. And the Quran has taught me to be kind and say kind things to the people.
Quran 4114 There is no good in most of what they privately confer, except whoever orders a charity or kindness or reconciliation between the people. And whoever does this seeking the grace of God, We will give him a great recompense.
Quran 283 And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except God, and do good to your parents, and regard the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and say kind things to the people, and hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification." But then you turned away, except for a few of you; you were objecting.
I think that taking a break from a forum from time to time, is a good idea. Because I think that it can enable a person to learn more, grow more and give more. Also, I think that that it can enable a person to focus more on his/her work and career.
I wish you the best in your journey. And I hope that we can still be brothers )
I look forward to read your posts in this forum in the future.
Take care trutseeker11.
May the God bless you.
Much respect,
Taro.
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I think that taking a break from a forum from time to time, is a good idea. Because it can enable a person to learn more, grow more and give more. Also, I think it can enable a person to focus more on his/her work and career.
Hmm yea... that might be right... http//emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sigh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862519
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Truthseeker just take a few days out or something. Sometimes I leave this place for a month and then come back to it to see if people have responded or anything interesting has come up in conversation or if I need to start battling people P with kindness of course. But like Taro, I've had my mind opened quite alot in regards to certain aspects of the Quran by yourself, wakas, and especially by Ayman (who I seriously miss on this forum....).
Anyway, I hope you don't leave for too long mate... But your post was awesome and I totally agree/respect it and I'm sure you meant no harm if you did tell Taro he is a deceiver which he is not (he might just need to not get so excited sometimes P).
Peace peace
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
I never disrespected you. I never said you made a wrong translation. I was very careful to say what I said. I never said that you have deceived.
You quoted a translation by someone else. I was calling that translator a deceiver and not that you are deceiving, and I was trying to give you sincere advice to be careful.
If someone is robbed and I say he has been robbed, am I disrespecting him? Then if I give him sincere advice how to take necessary precautions next time, is that disrespecting him?
You are the one ad homining me by falsely accusing me of disrespecting you. If you ad hominem me again like this, I am sorry I won't be able to participate in a discussion with you. I have always respected you.
I am not going to make any more posts in this thread. You have really disrespected me by falsely accusing me of having disrespected you, and I am very upset about that.
I was up until 2 am last night spending hours writing that post, just for you, and this is how I am treated for making a sincere effort. I had to get up early today and didn't get enough sleep. I didn't have to go out of my way like that.
Actually I am done with this forum for now and I am going to take a break for a while.
Keep up the good work and may ALLAH bless you for your efforts.
Peace and best regards.
No need to get upset over a fight on the internet, because....well...it's the internet...pretty pointless fighting over an opinion if you guys can't meet face to face...calm down, maybe a break will do it for ya
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peace t11,
The main issue with the other thread you referred to was the lack of research/thought put into the alternative position. For example throughout the thread issues were raised that were seemingly not thought of by the author, which was one of the reasons for the lengthy discussion that followed. It was quite a lazy approach in my view.
For those who wish to read it, from here is a reasonable start
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.msg304165#msg304165 -
So sexual activity in a Boyfriend-girlfriend relationship is okay???
your funny guy, you start with specific context, then apply a response to that specific context on a situation that has nothing to do with that context
show me how a boy friend and a girl friend in a city are like a man and a woman stuck on an island
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I was wondering if 1 female and 1 male got stuck on an island together with no hope of getting back to the city and they want to re-populate the island does it count that both of them are committing zina?They're both not legally married. Does loving each other counts as religiously married according to the quran?
It's not a joke it's a serious question
besides if you were stuck on an island wouldnt u have something else to worry about than have sex with the female next to you, like gathering food and building a shelter
just wondering your context is not clearly defined
Well i don't really see the difference between marriage and Regular relationship both financially provide for each other, usually couples meet each other's parents, and both swore an oath that they won't hook up with another person
Legal marriages sometimes from what i see are just the exact same thing, sometimes lasts pretty shortly rather than most Girlfriend/boyfriend relationships do
I don't think these types of couples deserves 100 lashes since they love each other and both of them mostly fulfill the quran's circumstances for marriageyou know why marriage exist? so that society knows you and the woman your interested in are getting together
you cant be individualistic with the quran because it's about community building on top of personal betterment
you dont see the difference but you dont understand that we live together in a society because your probably individualistic to the core
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They could do nikah...except what about witnesses? Isn't nikah invalid without witnesses?
I don't know what the Quran says about this. | -
besides if you were stuck on an island wouldnt u have something else to worry about than have sex with the female next to you, like gathering food and building a shelter
just wondering your context is not clearly defined
you know why marriage exist? so that society knows you and the woman your interested in are getting together
you cant be individualistic with the quran because it's about community building on top of personal betterment
you dont see the difference but you dont understand that we live together in a society because your probably individualistic to the core
So you're calling me individualistic to the core because i have a different point of view on what a marriage is than you or society...very tolerant of you
The couple on the island are similar to gf/bf relationship so yeah it's still in context
Btw If your eye is still functioning well i wrote that the couple on the island wants to re-populateI was wondering if 1 female and 1 male got stuck on an island together with no hope of getting back to the city and they want to re-populate the island does it count that both of them are committing zina?They're both not legally married. Does loving each other counts as religiously married according to the quran?
It's not a joke it's a serious question
Btw if you can scroll to the top of the website's page you'll notice that there's a tiny banner named "Free-Minds", and that is the website's name, and the word "Free" means that i can share or ask a question or have discussion on any topic i want, i'm an open-minded person and free to take any opinion or any person's thought(even you) no need to judge me as "individualistic to the core" just because i have a different interpretation of the quran than you.
A GF/BF or fiance are just labels in my point of view, and tell me what's the difference between a couple relationship and today's marriage? what does it require to be labelled as married, huh? papers? and imam or priest that requests a permission from God that these couple are married? tell me on what is your definition of marriage?
Here's a link of my answer to you
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376837#msg376837
Please do check it out, i'm very interested to have a friendly discussion with you, if you can -
They could do nikah...except what about witnesses? Isn't nikah invalid without witnesses?
I don't know what the Quran says about this. |Could you provide quranic evidence along with your post?
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Peace truthseeker11,
YOU STILL HAVEN'T QUOTED ANY VERSE FROM AL-QURAN THAT FORBIDS SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE WITH MMA.
You are right when you say that I haven't quoted any verse from Al-Quran that forbids sex outside marriage. But what about you? Can you prove that sex outside of marriage with MMA is permitted?
FACT
YOU HAVEN'T QUOTED ANY VERSE FROM AL-QURAN THAT PERMITS SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE WITH MMA.
In my view, sex is only permitted in a marriage, not outside of marriage.
See this article
Women and men in your care; ma malakat Aymanukum
http//submission.org/Women_Men_in_your_Care.html
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Peace everyone,
The Quran suggests that if one is a believer, one must lower ones gaze when looking at the opposite sex (see verses 2430-31). So if even looking at the opposite sex in a non-platonic/immodest way, is considered as wrong according to the quran, then how can a romantic relationship (with sexual relations), outside of marriage, be permitted by the Quran? The above-mentioned question has made me think that a lot of what the western society and liberal culture has taught us about relationships, is incompatible with the teachings of Al-Quran. I think that there is a purpose/wisdom behind every commandment in Al-Quran. Perhaps the God has given people (men and women) the commandments (in the above-mentioned verses) because the God wants men and women to create a strong mental/spiritual bond with their partner before they choose to commit (get married). And in my view, it is only possible to create a strong mental/spiritual bond with the opposite sex if one mainly focus on the mental/spiritual aspects of a relationship.
I would like to share a link to a very interesting and challenging post here.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.msg300275#msg300275
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The reason you take any measures is because you seek not to activate the instinctive drive, that is why you seek to be chaste. It is not really about rules but about recommendations. Following desires and lusts will lead to assimilation with your Body and that your Spirit shrinks in your Soul and hence your abd/connection/attachment to your Rabb.
Marriage is a human invention but consummation of bonding occurs with copulation. You can simply say your are married, have sex and then you are bonded together and cannot separate from each other.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace Man of faith,
Following desires and lusts will lead to assimilation with your Body and that your Spirit shrinks in your Soul and hence your abd/connection/attachment to your Rabb.
That seems to be correct.
You can simply say your are married, have sex and then you are bonded together and cannot separate from each other.
Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
See this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373915#msg373915
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Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
Dowry is part of the family establishment and a buffer sum for the wife in case of the husband's demise or disability to work. That is the reason why a dowry is not to be taken back if the man decides to leave the woman after they have had sex. It is a custom, but I think it is a good custom. It was more relevant prior to the Social Security systems of the modern day though, but it may still be customary that the man generates a buffer sum of money for the family before they procreate the first child.
According to God it is not allowed to leave the wife after you have had sex but that is binding and going against that is detrimental for the Spirit of your Soul. Jesus/Jesua went as far as to say that any woman who is left by her husband commits adultery bringing Spiritual decay upon them both. That has to do with the serious bonding that occurred with your bondmate. He also said that looking upon another woman with desire is detrimental, because it activates the primitive instinct of the Flesh, aka satan. There may obviously be exceptions such as domestic abuse where the link is severed anyhow, but in that case the detrimental effect on the Spirit is also severe for the abuser.
In Semitic tradition, if you have sex with an unmarried woman then you are forced to marry her, albeit "marriage" is the same as the bonding between you. Marriage contracts and rituals is a human invention, even if God recommends that you make your marriage official including witnesses for the feeling of security for both parts and also to increase the feeling that it is serious business and a solemn oath.
In the end, everything has to do with how much one guards themselves against the instinct (satan) from expressing itself. We must guard us from ourselves, our weak Body that is easily tempted by its instinct being an advanced primate yet animal enough. God made it that way, as a contradiction in this World and deluded us so that we are tested to see if we are potent enough to see through and find the right path and discover we consist of two parts; Spirit and Body, and together they form the person, the Nafs in Arabic, but we must learn the Body is not the real you but it is in the Spirit and the Body is clearly a distraction for us and it contains satan (the instinct). Satan is our most ardent enemy, and Satan is (in) our own Body, that call to do things like a Beast, an animal. We need to master our Body like you would put a dog in place and show who is its Master rather than letting the Body run loose. It is about discipline, making the Spirit take precedence.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace Man of faith,
That seems to be correct.
Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
See this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373915#msg373915
You know a couple that are committed by oath is married according to the quran, right? Dowry doesn't necessarily determine whether that person is married or not, right?
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...btw i've replied to you on this post about how the quran evolves during time, but you seem to ignore me for some reason
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376830#msg376830And do check my reply to Wakas on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376837#msg376837But if you're too lazy to check it out i'll just post it here(my debate with wakas)
My debate with wakas
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...
I have provided a verse which states there is a way to marry without dowry and that is by oath
Ask yourself wakas before you label me as insincere, you seemed to disagree also that this verse is saying there other ways to marry without dowry,are you being insincere also, and nothing in the quran that says we need an imam or a fancy seremony to be marriedand a gf/bf relationship seems to fit right in your conditions before marriage below
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility CHECK
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith CHECK
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) (GF/BF relationship is a dowerless marriage and falls into the category of verse 3350)CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
If male, capable of providing for the family/household CHECK(The male usually provides more but sometimes each other if they're staying in the same house)
To have physically matured / post-puberty CHECK(In reality gf/bf relationships occurs in puberty they recognize love and intimacy after puberty)O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
Before you label me as insincere ask yourself why you disagree with the verse that says marriage with commitment by oath is possible is yourself being insincere also??A gf/bf relationship seems to check out above and the verse 3350 and, and @Wakas i didn't come here to have an emotional debate or judge or label people from what they think or write, i'm only here to have a healthy discussion
And do read my reply to TaroHiroshi on why the quran was meant to evolve from time to time
I'm interested to hear from you or your response @Wakas
Peace
My debate with you (TaroHiroshi)
Okay Peace Taro, you know the quran doesn't tell us to have a big ceremony or anything or somekind of witness,right? and in god explains there's another way of marriage without dowry and that is commitment by oath, and i didn't dismiss wakas or your suggestions on some quranic verse i've read them all before i even started the thread!
The quran said there are wives that are lawful by dowry and oath, dowry seems to be another way to get married with your money and by a certain oath committed(without dowry) you can fall into the same category as married too
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Plus a marriage should not be determined with papers, and marriage issues should be solved by the couple without lawyers or a law involved to reduce hardships in a certain divorce
And once again i did not reject the quranic verse that you and @wakas brought me, but i'm trying to say that the quran provides a way for a couple to be categorized as married without dowry and that is by oath which a couple does before entering in a relationship.
Please hold your suspicion how i follow my greedy desire and @Wakas suspicions about how i ignore the quran and how insencere i am, i'm only here to have a healthy non-emotional discussion
O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
The reason i believe a gf/bf relationship is that i believe that the quran was supposed to evolve as time passes by and i believe that god uses flexible words to allow time and place to fit that person's situation.like in;
2431 "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."
god didn't told us what is necessary is but at some part of a certain country you need to be a little revealing if you want to fit in as time goes by this verse evolve, like wearing a hijab in the us, bad idea
and in O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
as time evolve
al-khamr(intoxicants) can mean drugs or any pharmaceutical ones that humans develop that can be a tool by the devil not just liquors
Al-Maisir(gamblin/games of chance) as time evolve it can be understood that it's just not gambling but any kind of game that involve luck and chance, for instance i got so hooked up in csgo that i forgot to salat, and in 591 al khamr and al-maisir are used to prevent believers from remebering god and contact prayer in todays world video games seems to be in the same cateogry as liquors because players have forgotten about salat after getting so
Al-Ansab(shrines) can mean any kind of place of worship not just altars but any kinds of place that involve a certain religious practice which by today used to manipulate their believers into doing evil things like spreading anti-semitism and such which probably all of us can relate
"Al-Azlam"(arrows of chance)in today's society, if they're in a tight situation they flip a coin to determined what they'll do next or any kind of decision making that uses luck even without arrows.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
And i've realized also that to prevent diseases like AIDS to spread we cannot teach our kids that sex with your gf is sin or forbidden or go to hell because they'll just forget from time to time, but what we need is to teach them about loyalty, whether it's in a gf/bf relationship or legal marriage it's the loyalty, trust, and compassion that needs to be taught to to a kid, and with this technique when they're a fully grown mature adult they've already learned to respect the partner that has given her whole body and soul to and i guarantee STD's and any other disease will dicrease every year as long as we see pass out of our traditional views on what marriage is.
And i think that's about it, that's my reason on how the quran evolves after a centuries and so as the definition of marriage from time to time
Btw nice Keizer soze quote! love kevin spacey! and the movie(watched it 2 times and loved every bryan singers movie)
I'm interested on your thoughts on both of my reply to you and wakas because i too wrote it in an awful long time
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Hi kamenriderkiki,
You know a couple that are committed by oath is married according to the quran, right? Dowry doesn't necessarily determine whether that person is married or not, right?
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...You are referring to a verse that is directed to the prophet, not to the muslims (submitters/peacemakers) or the mumins (believers/convinced). If you use a verse that is directed to the prophet to support the notion that a marriage doesn't consists of giving a dowry, then I think that your argument holds no weight. Because a verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others. Let me repeat that one more time A verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others.
From my understanding of the Quran, marriage consists of giving a dowry. In other words, marriage has a financial aspect that girlfriend/boyfriend relationships don't seem to have. The fact is that there are several Quranic verses which state that marriage consists of giving a dowry.
Quran 424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Quran 425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness-to be independent not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Until they become independent, any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is the punishment for those who are independent. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Quran 55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent females from those who are believers, and the independent females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
Quran 2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not finalize the marriage contract until the interim in the book is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Quran 2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before setting the dowry for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. A recompense in goodness, a responsibility for the good doers.
Also, I think that verses 2235 and 2236 above (about divorce and interim period), CLEARLY show that a marriage is NOT the same as a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship.
btw i've replied to you on this post about how the quran evolves during time, but you seem to ignore me for some reason
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376830#msg376830I am not ignoring you. But I don't want to participate in an endless discussion/debate about this topic. It seems that you have made up your mind regarding the definition of marriage. And if that's the case, then no matter what Quranic evidence I show you, you will ignore/reject it.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
I think that the Quran is a living, dynamic text/scripture. And I think that the Quran is open to new interpretations. Also, I think that the Quran is a flexible text/scripture. That being said, the Quran seems to have many principles and laws/commandments that are practical/functional in all time periods (both the past, the present and the future), everywhere (in all circumstances) and for everyone (regardless of cultural background and ethnicity). And since these principles and laws/commandments appear to be practical/functional in all time periods, everywhere and for everyone, then it seems that these principles and laws/commandments don't need to be changed, don't need to be modificated and don't need to evolve. For example, the Quran forbids adultery and the act of killing innocent people (see verse 6151). The Quranic commandments/laws regarding adultery and murder seem to be applicable at all times, in all circumstances and for everyone. If these laws/commandments are applicable at all times, in all circumstances and for everyone, then this suggests that these laws/commandments don't need need to change, don't need to be modificated and don't need to evolve. "Islam based on the Quran", is a perfected, complete and fully detailed deen (system/way of life). And in my view, such a system DOESN'T need to change at all. I think that such a system ONLY needs to be reinterpreted and adapted to the existing reality.
The Quran suggests that Islam is a perfected, complete and fully detailed deen (system/way of life)
Quran 53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide through arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system (deen) for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission (islam) as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Quran 6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? " Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Quran 6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Purity and chastity seem to be virtues that have gone out of fashion these days. And I think that's a shame. I think that there are many good reasons to save sex until marriage. In my opinion, there are both material/physical and spiritual benefits of celibacy before marriage... If only you could understand.
As mentioned earlier, I don't want to participate in an endless discussion/debate about this topic. Also, I disagree with your claim that a boyfriend and girlfriend can have sexual relations outside of marriage. Because there is no Quranic evidence that supports your claim, in my opinion. On the contrary, I think that there is solid Quranic evidence (in several posts in this thread) that disproves your claim.
As you know, I don't agree with your views regarding marriage. And you don't agree with my views regarding marriage. Therefore, I think that it is better if we just agree to disagree.
This is my last post to you in this thread.
Peace.
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Hi kamenriderkiki,
You are referring to a verse that is directed to the prophet, not to the muslims (submitters/peacemakers) or the mumins (believers/convinced). If you use a verse that is directed to the prophet to support the notion that a marriage doesn't consists of a dowry, then I think that your argument holds no weight. Because a verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others. Let me repeat that one more time A verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others.
O ye who believe! obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4 59)
They're humans just like us, no different,
If they're allowed to do it, we can too
As you know, I don't agree with your views regarding marriage. And you don't agree with my views regarding marriage. Therefore, I think that it is better if we just agree to disagree.
This is my last post to you in this thread.
Peace.
Sometimes in some other post you're a little bit dishonest too at times Taro, don't mean no disrespect or anything but remember the salat is not physical post i asked you about how you do your salat but you replied with
As far as I know, it is not important to know how others do their Salat. In my view, it is not important to know how I do Salat or how many times a day I do Salat .
Be a little honest to anyone next time okay, don't hold back information, not accusing you or anything just a little friendly tip.
I hope you're not quitting on this thread because numerous people disagree with your strict view of the quran, but nevertheless i hope we can have a friendly discussion someday in my upcoming thread in regards about a certain topic that you may relate to.Quran 424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Quran 425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness-to be independent not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Until they become independent, any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is the punishment for those who are independent. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Quran 55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent females from those who are believers, and the independent females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
Quran 2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not finalize the marriage contract until the interim in the book is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Quran 2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before setting the dowry for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. A recompense in goodness, a responsibility for the good doers.
I was about to refute you about those verses you just posted above, but since you gave up on our discussion, then writing my interpretation of those verse is pointless if you're quitting...oh well
Good night and good luck
-kamen
