Is Surah al-M??idah contradicting itself?

Wakas

peace rlz,

Whom are you taking as "the people of the book"? In a previous discussion with me you said it was those in receipt of quran. Please clarify.

runninglikezebras

peace rlz,

Whom are you taking as "the people of the book"? In a previous discussion with me you said it was those in receipt of quran. Please clarify.

Peace wakas,

You are correct, I did identify muslims as "people of the book" in earlier posts. I was wrong to do so. I am reviewing the verses using "the people of the book" in the quranic verses (among which those dealing with the qibla).

I'm assuming you referred to this verse ""Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the book all the signs (together), they would not follow thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. if thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, wert to follow their (vain) desires, then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong."

As I understand it now it refers to this verse in the bible

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship .Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. " (John 419-23 )"

Though I need to examine those verses more in detail and compare them to historical record.

Peace

runninglikezebras

Peace runninglikezebras.

Are you forgetting the basic rule that applies to 551?

Here it is
557
O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence God, if you are really believers.

This answers which Jews and Christians!
As for 582 God is stating a fact .

In both verses ,Qoran is talking about certain Jews and Christians.

There is no contradiction!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace goodlogic,

I did not ignore that verse. It is not speaking about Jews and Christians though. I think the article makes clear why it can't be understood as such. It would make Quran state absurdities like Abraham saying "be jews/christians". That verse does not help identifying them.

Quran is pretty concise, it distincts

Jews who did not accept Jesus as a messenger
Jews who did accept the Messenger (nasara)

Labels such as christians and jews are doing nothing to make clear who is being referred to. None of those groups were homogeneous in their beliefs.

Peace

runninglikezebras

This chart will be helpful for those trying to understand the OP and maps the different schisms in religion as well the origins of them

http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Genealogy-Islam.PNG

good_logic

Peace runninglikezebras.

Here is 557 in Arabic

If you are saying this verse is not speaking about Jews and Christians, then who is the verse speaking about?

Who have been given the scripture before ?

What article makes it clear why it cannot be understood as such?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

runninglikezebras

Peace runninglikezebras.

Here is 557 in Arabic

If you are saying this verse is not speaking about Jews and Christians, then who is the verse speaking about?

Who have been given the scripture before ?

What article makes it clear why it cannot be understood as such?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Let me return that question to show you how vague the labels are you are using. Who are you referring to with 'Christians'?

Are they the judeo-nazarenes? Are they the apostolic christians (orthodox)? Are they the Coptic christians? Are they the Judeo-aramaic christians?

As you can see the labels you are using are ambiguous and do not distinct using the criteria Quran applies.

For Quran the distinction is made based on their acceptance of previous scripture and previous messengers. In this sense the Judeo-nazarenes are most close to the "early" muslims. In contrast, Apostolic christians will have nothing in common.

I hope you can agree the labels "Jews and Christians" are quite meaningless and are traditional interpretations used to establish a "schism" in later period.

Peace

runninglikezebras

A good example of this are the Judeo-Christians living in Qumran who left behind the famous dead sea scrolls. Are they jewish? Are they christian? They are both. Yet they are different from both.

Peace

good_logic

Peace runninglikezebras.

Qoran is talking about "certain Jews and Christians" those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not matter what denomination they are!!!

I do not see where or what you are getting at?

You are going too deep for something straight forward and simple.

There is no contradiction in the verses you are quoting in this thread.

These "certain Jews and Christians" are the ones who received the scripture before the believers at the time of the prophet. If they were different denominations, Qoran did not give such details except to say "those who mock and ridicule the believers" whatever denomination they were. i.e the denominations are irrelevant!!

GOD bless you.
Peace

runninglikezebras

Peace runninglikezebras.

Qoran is talking about "certain Jews and Christians" those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not matter what denomination they are!!!

I do not see where or what you are getting at?

You are going too deep for something straight forward and simple.

There is no contradiction in the verses you are quoting in this thread.

These "certain Jews and Christians" are the ones who received the scripture before the believers at the time of the prophet. If they were different denominations, Qoran did not give such details except to say "those who mock and ridicule the believers" whatever denomination they were. i.e the denominations are irrelevant!!

GOD bless you.
Peace

The demoninations are very relevant. You can't say eg Jews and Christians - including Judeo-Nazarenes - are those who mock and ridicule the believers. Because it would contradict with Quran saying the Judeo-Nazarenes are the closest to the believers.

But I agree the verse you quoted is irrelevant to understanding the People of the Book. My OP is dealing with identifying the nasara and judaics as mentioned in Quran and exposing verses that have been obviously tampered with (additions of "and the nazarenes" almost always break the rythm/cantillation of the verses in which they were used and make Quran self contradict within one surah even).

Is this not a contradiction in sura 5 (not to mention historically incorrect in 551)?

?O you who have believed! Do not take the Jews and the nas?r? as allies they are allies of one another? (551)
You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)

Is this not a contradiction?

?Those who believed, those who follow the Jewish , Nazarenes or Sabeans, whoever believed in God... will have their reward? (surah 262 parall. 569).
?Those who have believed, and those who follow the Jewish and the Sabeans and the Nazarenes, the Magians and those who associated with God, God will judge between them on the day of Judgment? (Surah 2217).

I strongly advise the reader to listen to the recitation of those verses using "and nasara" and pay attention to the cantillation and rythm.

Peace

good_logic

Peace runninglikezebras.

I have explained why I do not find a contradiction, by looking at the context including 557.

I was trying to to help by bringing it to your attention.

I will leave it there.
Thank you for the conversation.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

runninglikezebras

Peace runninglikezebras.

I have explained why I do not find a contradiction, by looking at the context including 557.

I was trying to to help by bringing it to your attention.

I will leave it there.
Thank you for the conversation.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

I understand what you are saying but I do not find this resolving the contradiction

?O you who have believed! Do not take the Jews and the nas?r? as allies they are allies of one another? (551)

=> This verse is not making exceptions about making allies with the Jews and the nasara. There is no room for exception. Are you saying if they don't mock you, you can take them as allies?

You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)

=> This doesn't make any exceptions either. It only states the nasara are closest in faith to the believers. Adding your verse to it makes it irrational then it would say, they are closest in belief but are capable of mocking you still. This verse identifies the nasara as the least likely candidates to be mocking believers. Wouldn't you agree?

Once you remove the cantillation/ryhtm breaking "and nasara in 551 it all falls into place. The Jews are only loyal to themselves. The Nasara are the closest to the believers spiritually.

Peace

runninglikezebras

I think it's a very troublesome contradiction. And it's very troublesome to understand Quran has been tampered with.

I appreciate the contribution goodlogic but by any logical standards it does not resolve the contradiction. A verse commanding the believers not to forge an alliance with a specific group leaves no room for exemption based on whether or not they would be mocking believers.

If it was a military command, the modern day result of ignoring such an order and still taking alliances with them would be dealt with court martially. The forbidden group being respectful towards yourself will be no argument.

In motorcycle clubs similar rules exist when they say no contact with such and such MC, the punishment for ignoring that command is quite severe. Even if they were respectful to the MC involved.

Peace

truthseeker11

Peace runninglikezebras,

I think it's a very troublesome contradiction. And it's very troublesome to understand Quran has been tampered with.

Thank you for bringing to attention yet another contradiction in the current text of al-quran which is an addition to the growing list of contradictions that have been discovered and discussed on this forum by other posters and myself in the past.

This adds to my growing suspicion that the current text of al-quran might contain some falsehoods. I am getting more and more convinced that the current text of al-quran (CTQ) is not identical to the original text of al-quran (OTQ). It seems quite a few additions/deletions/omissions were made to and from the OTQ soon after death of Muhammad the messenger, resulting in CTQ. The pagans/negative entities did to al-quran soon after Muhammad what they did to torah and injil in the past soon after Musa and Yashuwa/Isa for their own nefarious agenda of misguiding humanity.

Even latest archeological evidence supports this conclusion of tampering, for example Sanaa palimpsest parchments. The deleted inferior text of the Sanaa palimpsests is significantly different from the later superior text and the CTQ. Many words were deleted from and added to the inferior text resulting in the superior text which is quite close to CTQ.

Out of approximately 15,000 Sanaa parchments discovered belonging to more than 900 Quran copies, only 40 folios were studied in depth by independent linguistic experts which started to reveal evidence of tampering with OTQ. Subsequently Yemeni government placed all of the parchments under lock and key and is currently not allowing any further in depth study by independent linguistic experts to prevent the complete truth from getting exposed.

I am eagerly awaiting discovery of the complete OTQ for confirmation of this suspected tampering, but not too optimistic about it, because I am pretty sure "the ones in power" will not allow that discovery to become public knowledge or will prevent public access to it just like in the case of Sanaa parchments.

May the infinite creator guide us to the truth.

runninglikezebras

Peace runninglikezebras,

Thank you for bringing to attention yet another contradiction in the current text of al-quran which is an addition to the long list of contradictions that have been discovered and discussed on this forum by other posters and myself in the past.

This adds to my growing suspicion that the current text of al-quran might contain some falsehoods. I am getting more and more convinced that the current text of al-quran (CTQ) is not identical to the original text of al-quran (OTQ). It seems quite a few additions/deletions/omissions were made to the OTQ soon after death of Muhammad the messenger, resulting in CTQ. The pagans/negative entities did to al-quran soon after Muhammad what they did to torah and injil in the past soon after Musa and Yashuwa/Isa for their own nefarious agenda of misguiding humanity.

Even latest archeological evidence supports this conclusion of tampering, for example Sanaa palimpsest parchments. The deleted inferior text of the Sanaa palimpsests is significantly different from the later superior text and the CTQ. Many words were deleted from and added to the inferior text resulting in the superior text which is quite close to CTQ.

Out of 15,000 Sanaa parchments discovered, only 40 folios were studied in depth by independent linguistic experts which started to reveal evidence of tampering with OTQ. Subsequently Yemeni government placed all of the parchments under lock and key and is currently not allowing any further in depth study by independent linguistic experts to prevent the complete truth from getting exposed.

I am eagerly awaiting discovery of the complete OTQ for confirmation of this suspected tampering, but not too optimistic about it, because I am pretty sure "the ones in power" will not allow that discovery to become public knowledge or will prevent public access to it just like in the case of Sanaa parchments.

May the infinite creator guide us to the truth.

You may find some pointers in this thread helping you in your research the OP points out the origins of Islam are to be found in the Judeo-Nazarene tradition. This is confirmed in Quran

"You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)"

Examples of this proto-islamic faith can be found in the writings found in the Qumran scrolls. At the time the Qumran scrolls were written, there were large groups of Judeo-christians who willingly abandoned Jerusalem. From their perspective Temple Mount was controlled by the unrighteous pharisees and judaics who rejected Jesus. In their revolt against the pharisees they turned to an isolated life in remote places in the desert, such as Qumran and the Syrian desert.

Now where did we hear this before?

Will say the foolish ones from the people the people, "What (has) turned them from their qibla which they were used to on it?"

This description is amazingly compatible with the Judeo-Nazarene groups who left Jerusalem such as those in Qumran.

Peace

good_logic

Peace Truthseeker.

So you find contradictions in Qoran, is itbecause you do not believe it is the original,or you have not studied it or you do not understand it properly or...?

Do you believe first then try to find evidence,or do you look for evidence then believe?

Do you believe part of the Qoran is original? Which part/s do you believe is/are from GOD?

What do these verses tell you?Have they been tampered with?

We have cited in this Qoran (all kinds of examples), that they may take heed. But it only augments their aversion.

We thus revealed it, an Arabic Qoran, and we cited in it all kinds of prophecies, that they may be saved, or it may cause them to take heed.

God thus explains the revelations for you. God is Omniscient, Wise.

Whatever argument they come up with, we provide you with the truth, and a better understanding.

Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this book, being recited to them? This is indeed a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

Thus, we have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples. Yet, no matter what kind of proof you present to the disbelievers, they say, "You are falsifiers."

As for those who constantly challenge our revelations, they have incurred a retribution of painful humiliation.

It is evident to those who are blessed with knowledge that this revelation from your Lord to you is the truth, and that it guides to the path of the Almighty, the Most Praiseworthy.

Why do they not study the Quran carefully? Do they have locks on their minds?

Do not move your tongue to hasten it. It is we who will collect it into Quran. Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Qoran. Then it is we who will explain it.

How does GOD protect HIS words? What about the latest generations,are they going to receive only part of it?How are they going to find the original?
I am just curious and want to know your thinking.
Thanks in advance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

runninglikezebras