Is Surah al-M??idah contradicting itself?
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You say
551 forbids alliances with any jews or nasara
557 also forbids alliances with anyone mocking believers etcI say
551 forbids alliances with Jews or nasara.
557 confirms which type ,same subject as 551.i.e( those that mock and ridicule the believers).Hence you find an issue with 582 and I do not. Hence you say Qoran contradicts and I say there are no contradictions in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
See my previous post that shows your logic is flawed. 557 does not narrow down the group of nasara and jews. I demonstrated using a logical test, showing that it broadens the prohibition of alliances with anyone mocking, ridiculing in addition to the prohibition on alliances with Jews and Nasara while allowing overlap.
Where does 551 say "some" Jews or Nasara? Where does 557 say Jews or Nasara? All these things you project into the objective text but aren't there in reality. Both of these are lacking and are crucial to make your understanding correct.
You are showing all the signs of distorting the text to avoid facing a contradiction that you dislike. Even going as far as to abrogate a very simple prohibition on alliances with certain groups that are referred to with PROPER NAMES.
I'm also clueless how you picked your username. Logic seems an unexplored terrain for you.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You follow your logic. I follow Qoran.
It seems your logic is leading you astray. You are not even accepting that 557 speaks about the Jews and nasara ?
Who are the ones who received the scripture before Qoran?
What can I say?
I now have to leave it here and wish you good luck with your logic.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace runninglikezebras.
You follow your logic. I follow Qoran.
It seems your logic is leading you astray. You are not even accepting that 557 speaks about the Jews and nasara ?
Who are the ones who received the scripture before Qoran?
What can I say?
I now have to leave it here and wish you good luck with your logic.
GOD bless you.
Peace.You follow quran even when it fully contradicts itself. And you are again using a false argument trying to distort meaning. If 557 narrowed down the prohibition in 551 it would repeat "nasara and jews". It would not say "people of the book". They are not the same you know. People of the book is much broader than "nasara and jews" proving the prohibition is BROADENED contrary to your misunderstanding it is NARROWED DOWN.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
You follow quran even when it fully contradicts itself. And you are again using a false argument trying to distort meaning. If 557 narrowed down the prohibition in 551 it would repeat "nasara and jews". It would not say "people of the book". They are not the same you know. People of the book is much broader than "nasara and jews" proving the prohibition is BROADENED contrary to your misunderstanding it is NARROWED DOWN.
By now you know that I don't automatically condone every thesis of yours. I looked at your thesis reference 551, 557, 582 with a critical mind as always and tried my best to refute it but I have not been successful so far.
Here is how I understand the referenced verses
551 = believers cannot take al-yahud and al-nasara (THE YAHUD and THE NASARA which includes ALL YAHUD and ALL NASARA because of definite article) as allies.
CONCLUSION A = NONE OF THE YAHUD AND NONE OF THE NASARA CAN BE TAKEN AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS.
557 = believers cannot take as allies those who consider the believers deen as mockery and play FROM AMONG the people of the book before them and the kuffar.
This clearly refers to a SUBSET OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK WHICH CAN INCLUDE SOME AL-YAHUD AND AL-NASARA who consider believers deen as mockery and play and NOT ALL AL-YAHUD AND AL-NASARA.
CONCLUSION B = SOME (NOT ALL) AL-YAHUD AND AL-NASARA CAN BE TAKEN AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS (those who DO NOT mock deen).
But wait a minute .......
CONCLUSION A CLEARLY CONTRADICTS CONCLUSION B
582 = Nasara are closest in affection to the believers because they are not arrogant. THOSE WHO SAID "WE ARE NASARA" indicates ALL NASARA ARE BEING REFERRED TO.
BUT 551 PREVENTS TAKING ALL NASARA AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS.
This doesn't make any sense.
WHY WOULD SOMEONE CLOSEST IN AFFECTION WHO IS NOT ARROGANT BE PREVENTED FROM BEING TAKEN AS AN ALLY?
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
By now you know that I don't automatically condone every thesis of yours. I looked at your thesis reference 551, 557, 582 with a critical mind as always and tried my best to refute it but I have not been successful so far.
Here is how I understand the referenced verses
551 = believers cannot take al-yahud and al-nasara (THE YAHUD and THE NASARA which includes ALL YAHUD and ALL NASARA because of definite article) as allies.
CONCLUSION A = NONE OF THE YAHUD AND NONE OF THE NASARA CAN BE TAKEN AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS.
557 = believers cannot take as allies those who consider the believers deen as mockery and play FROM AMONG the people of the book before them and the kuffar.
This clearly refers to a SUBSET OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK WHICH CAN INCLUDE SOME AL-YAHUD AND AL-NASARA who consider believers deen as mockery and play and NOT ALL AL-YAHUD AND AL-NASARA.
CONCLUSION B = SOME (NOT ALL) AL-YAHUD AND AL-NASARA CAN BE TAKEN AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS (those who DO NOT mock deen).
But wait a minute .......
CONCLUSION A CLEARLY CONTRADICTS CONCLUSION B
582 = Nasara are closest in affection to the believers because they are not arrogant. THOSE WHO SAID "WE ARE NASARA" indicates ALL NASARA ARE BEING REFERRED TO.
BUT 551 PREVENTS TAKING ALL NASARA AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS.
This doesn't make any sense.
WHY WOULD SOMEONE CLOSEST IN AFFECTION WHO IS NOT ARROGANT BE PREVENTED FROM BEING TAKEN AS AN ALLY?
Peace
I agree with your logical analysis. I dispute however with People of the Book to refer "to a SUBSET OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK WHICH CAN INCLUDE SOME AL-YAHUD AND AL-NASARA"
This is not by definition the Jews and the Nasara exclusively, though you are right to state it can include them. The people of the book are a way larger group, basically any people of the Injeel and Torah. Most of you think this is identical to Al-Yahud and Al-Nasara but it is not. To demonstrate this point, think of the Apostolic christians. They are not Nazerenes yet they are included in the larger group of People of The Book. Another example would be Byzantine christians they are not nasara but included in the group of People of the Book.
It can include Jews and Nazarenes but 557 can also include any byzantine, judeo-armaic, coptic christian etc mocking the believers to be illegal allies.
It's not really an error but I found how you worded it a bit confusing. The contradiction is indeed very weighty and obvious. This thread is showing how those who don't like confronting this contradiction start resorting to abrogating and distorting verses to make it not contradict.
This contradiction and many others stated in the OP, show that the polemic versus the Jews has been expanded at later times to include "and the nasara". Remove "and the nasara" from those verses and the contradiction is magically gone.
The forbidden allies are Jews only and those People of the book who are being hostile, arrogant and ridiculing the believers.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
I see how my wording could be confusing. Perhaps I should have said "this clearly includes .....".
I didn't say "this clearly refers to al-yahud and al-nasara", but "this clearly refers to a subset of people of the book, which can include some ......."
Further analysis indicates that even if "and al-nasara" is removed from 551, the contradiction STILL REMAINS!
Let's analyze without "and al-nasara"
551 = believers cannot take al-yahud (THE YAHUD which includes ALL YAHUD because of definite article) as allies.
CONCLUSION A = NONE OF THE YAHUD CAN BE TAKEN AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS.
557 = believers cannot take as allies those who consider the believers deen as mockery and play FROM AMONG the people of the book before them and the kuffar.
This clearly talks about a SUBSET OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK WHICH CAN INCLUDE SOME AL-YAHUD who consider believers deen as mockery and play and NOT ALL AL-YAHUD.
CONCLUSION B = SOME (NOT ALL) AL-YAHUD CAN BE TAKEN AS ALLIES BY BELIEVERS (those who DO NOT mock deen).
CONCLUSION A CLEARLY CONTRADICTS CONCLUSION B
Removing "and al-nasara" removes contradiction between 551 and 582 but the contradiction between 551 and 557 still remains!
One way this contradiction is completely removed is by removing "and al-nasara" and adding "some"/ba3d before "al-yahud" in 551.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,truthseeker.
You are understanding 551 wrong,why?
Because you are taking "Jews and nasara" to mean "all the Jews and nasara" and GOD has not said "All the Jews and nasara"!!!!
GOD confirmed which ones in the same conversation (557). Do you think GOD does not choose His words carefully?
Let me give you an example here
2113
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. God will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.Do you think all the Christians have said this about the Jews,and all the Jews have said that about the Christians?
Do you think they are no exceptions?
You need to read more verses to know the context of who was likely to say it. And you cannot say GOD means all the nasara and all the Jews?Why? because He did not use the word "All".The same when GOD says the "nasara" have said " GOD has begotten a son". Does it mean "all the nasara"? I know and you know some are monotheist!!!!
I am afraid your argument does not hold.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace runninglikezebras,truthseeker.
You are understanding 551 wrong,why?
Because you are taking "Jews and nasara" to mean "all the Jews and nasara" and GOD has not said "All the Jews and nasara"!!!!
GOD confirmed which ones in the same conversation (557). Do you think GOD does not choose His words carefully?
Let me give you an example here
2113
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. God will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.Do you think all the Christians have said this about the Jews,and all the Jews have said that about the Christians?
Do you think they are no exceptions?
You need to read more verses to know the context of who was likely to say it. And you cannot say GOD means all the nasara and all the Jews?Why? because He did not use the word "All".The same when GOD says the "nasara" have said " GOD has begotten a son". Does it mean "all the nasara"? I know and you know some are monotheist!!!!
I am afraid your argument does not hold.
GOD bless you.
Peace.You are forcing me into repeating myself. The people of the Book are not synonymous to nasara and jews. Do I really need to post a Venn-diagram showing what the difference is?
People of the book = all the people of the Torah, Injeel and what was Revealed By The Lord.
?O Children of Israel ? be not the first to cover? And do not wrap Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is)? (2 41-42).
?Those to whom We have given the Book recite it with its true recital. They believe in it. And whoever covers it ? it is they who are the losers? (2121).
?When they are told Come to what GOD has revealed, and to the messenger , they say What we found our parents doing is sufficient for us? (5104).
?Some have said No one will enter Paradise except Jews (h?d)! Such is their wishful thinking. Say Show us your proof, if you are right? (2111). / (2112) / ?The Yah?d (Judaics) said The Nazarenes have no basis /?/ . Yet, both of them read the Book! Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge . God will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding what they have changed? (2113).
?Those, among the People of the Book, who cover (Truth) and the associators will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye)? (986).People of the book includes Jews and Nasara but also Coptic, byzantine, judeo-aramaic christians etc. 557 expands the prohibition in 551 it does NOT narrow it down; nor does it state any exemptions allowed for alliances concerning Jews and Nasara.
557 is speaking of People of the book NOT nasara and jews.
When Quran uses proper nouns with on top of it a definite article the entire group is referred to. There are no exemptions for alliances with Jews or Nasara. Not even if they are not mocking, affectionate. You can't take any nasara nor jew as ally because of their affiliation with those groups named.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Let us review all the verses so the context is clear.
From 551 until the subject changes,then see for yourself,or members here can see what GOD is really saying
Let us quote all the verses first
551
O you who believe, do not take( certain) Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. God does not guide the transgressors.Notice the word in bracket (certain) you will see why at the end?
552
You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May God bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.553
The believers will then say, "Are these the same people who swore by God solemnly that they were with you?" Their works have been nullified; they are the losers.554
O you who believe, if you revert from your religion, then God will substitute in your place people whom He loves and who love Him. They will be kind with the believers, stern with the disbelievers, and will strive in the cause of God without fear of any blame. Such is God's blessing; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. God is Bounteous, Omniscient.555
Your real allies are God and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Salat, and give the Zakat, and they bow down.556
Those who ally themselves with God and His messenger, and those who believed, belong in the party of God; absolutely, they are the victors.Now here comes the clue! Which Jews and Christians?
557
O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence God, if you are really believers.558
When you call to the Salat, they mock and ridicule it. This is because they are people who do not understand.559
Say, "O people of the scripture, do you not hate us because we believe in God, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed before us, and because most of you are not righteous?"560
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of God those who are condemned by God after incurring His wrath until He made them (as despicable as) monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."561
When they come to you, they say, "We believe," even though they were full of disbelief when they entered, and they are full of disbelief when they leave. God is fully aware of everything they conceal.562
You see many of them readily committing evil and transgression, and eating from illicit earnings. Miserable indeed is what they do.563
If only the rabbis and the priests enjoin them from their sinful utterances and illicit earnings! Miserable indeed is what they commit.See ,their rabbis and priests" means certain Jews and Christians!!!!
The context brother ,settles the issue here. Now you see why the word "certain" was necessary.
GOD bless you
Peace -
Peace runninglikezebras.
Let us review all the verses so the context is clear.
From 551 until the subject changes,then see for yourself,or members here can see what GOD is really saying
Let us quote all the verses first
551
O you who believe, do not take( certain) Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. God does not guide the transgressors.Notice the word in bracket (certain) you will see why at the end?
552
You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May God bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.553
The believers will then say, "Are these the same people who swore by God solemnly that they were with you?" Their works have been nullified; they are the losers.554
O you who believe, if you revert from your religion, then God will substitute in your place people whom He loves and who love Him. They will be kind with the believers, stern with the disbelievers, and will strive in the cause of God without fear of any blame. Such is God's blessing; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. God is Bounteous, Omniscient.555
Your real allies are God and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Salat, and give the Zakat, and they bow down.556
Those who ally themselves with God and His messenger, and those who believed, belong in the party of God; absolutely, they are the victors.Now here comes the clue! Which Jews and Christians?
557
O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence God, if you are really believers.558
When you call to the Salat, they mock and ridicule it. This is because they are people who do not understand.559
Say, "O people of the scripture, do you not hate us because we believe in God, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed before us, and because most of you are not righteous?"560
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of God those who are condemned by God after incurring His wrath until He made them (as despicable as) monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."561
When they come to you, they say, "We believe," even though they were full of disbelief when they entered, and they are full of disbelief when they leave. God is fully aware of everything they conceal.562
You see many of them readily committing evil and transgression, and eating from illicit earnings. Miserable indeed is what they do.563
If only the rabbis and the priests enjoin them from their sinful utterances and illicit earnings! Miserable indeed is what they commit.See ,their rabbis and priests" means certain Jews and Christians!!!!
The context brother ,settles the issue here. Now you see why the word "certain" was necessary.
GOD bless you
PeaceAre you kidding me? Are you promoting injections into translations now? The word certain is not there in 551. Deal with it. People of the book/scripture is NOT equal to Jews and Nasara. Are you even reading what I am posting? The subject in 551 and 557 is DIFFERENT. 551 speaks exclusively of Jews and Nasara. 557 speaks of all the people of the book. Eg byzantine christians are not referred to in 551 but can be referred to in 557. How many times do you want me to repeat this? Are you ignoring this argument, or what is up?
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
It is the same subject. all the way through the verses quoted.
Why do you want 551 to mean "all" the jews and nasara then, if you are saying I cannot say just "certain jews and nasara.
Are you applying a different rule for you?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace runninglikezebras.
It is the same subject. all the way through the verses quoted.
Why do you want 551 to mean "all" the jews and nasara then, if you are saying I cannot say just "certain jews and nasara.
Are you applying a different rule for you?
GOD bless you.
PeaceDo this test please because it is not getting through....
Think of byzantine christians. Read 551. Ask yourself are byzantine christians referred to here? Answer No, only the nazarenes and jews are referred to. Byzantine christians aren't jewish nor nazarenes.
Now read 557. Ask yourself could byzantine christians be referred to here? Answer Yes, byzantine christians are people of the book.
Conclusion People of the book and "jews and nasara" are not identical groups.
Implicit consequence The rule in 557 can not be applied to 551 because 551 is not referring to all the people of the book but only the jews and nazarenes within the larger group of People of the book.
551 means ALL because it uses A PROPER NOUN PLUS DEFINITE ARTICLE IN ANY LANGUAGE THIS MEANS THE ENTIRE GROUP. Eg THE ENGLISH, THE FRENCH, THE DUTCH meaning ALL THE ENGLISH, ALL THE FRENCH, ALL THE DUTCH.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
As yourself this question,557 only applies to those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not apply to any other Jews or Christians or...?
What you are saying about different denominations is irrelevant.
557 is clear for all to see.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace runninglikezebras.
As yourself this question,557 only applies to those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not apply to any other Jews or Christians or...?
What you are saying about different denominations is irrelevant.
557 is clear for all to see.
GOD bless you.
Peace.551 Don't take Jews and Nazarenes as allies (no condition), simply DONT. => YOU CAN NEVER TAKE THEM AS ALLIES
557 Do not take people of the book as allies when they mock and ridicule you. => YOU CAN TAKE THEM AS ALLIES UNLESS THEY MOCK AND RIDICULE BELIEVERS OR ARE NASARA OR JEWS
Please try to apply some REASON and LOGIC.
You simply ignored my example of byzantine christians that demonstrates the difference perfectly and leaves no doubt about them being different denominators.
Peace
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Here is the flowchart
Question Is this group a permitted ally according to Quran?
- Are they Nasara or Jews?
If true You can't take them as allies. Stop Here. (551)
If false Continue to 2)- Are they people of the book?
If true Continue to 3)
If False You can't take them as allies. Stop here. (557)- Are they mocking and ridiculing the believers?
If True You can't take them as allies Stop here. (557)
If False You can take them as allies. Stop here. (557)The conditions are pretty clear and easy to understand.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
I have explained my understanding using all the verses that clarified the same subject and the context.
You have stated your views.
Like you said we both keep repeating ourselves.
I do not agree with your views. I do not see any contradiction or abrogation or even the slightest problem that you see.
The reader can now take what they feel makes sense to them or ponder Qoran and get their own understanding from the verses.
Thank you once more.
I now will end my conversation in this thread, if you do not mind.
Best of luck with your research.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Okay. But your logic is not sound concerning these verses.
Peace
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Peace good logic,
Let me give you an example here
2113
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. God will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.Do you think all the Christians have said this about the Jews,and all the Jews have said that about the Christians?
First you mistranslate the verse and then try to base your understanding on the mistranslation.
"AL-NASARA" DOES NOT MEAN "THE CHRISTIANS".
"AL-NASARA" IS A SUBSET OF "THE CHRISTIANS".
"AL-NASARA" REFERS TO ALL NASARA (i.e. SOME CHRISTIANS) BUT NOT "ALL CHRISTIANS".
If AL-NASARA told AL-YAHUD that AL-YAHUD don't have any basis, then ALL NASARA (NOT ALL CHRISTIANS) told that to AL-YAHUD.
In al-quran when a subset is referred to, the word "ba3d"/some is used.
For example
419 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit from the women by force. And do not make difficulty for them so that you may take away some of what you have given them .............
432 And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with ............
Al-quran does use "some" when a subset is being referred to.
The same when GOD says the "nasara" have said " GOD has begotten a son". Does it mean "all the nasara"? I know and you know some are monotheist!!!!
You are making your own conclusion first (that some nasara did not say that), and then forcing YOUR OWN ERRONEOUS CONCLUSION upon understanding of the verse.
If al-quran says THE NASARA said that, then ALL NASARA MUST HAVE SAID THAT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN ALL CHRISTIANS SAID THAT.
AL-NASARA = ALL NASARA (SOME CHRISTIANS).
"AL-NASARA" DOES NOT REFER TO "ALL CHRISTIANS". That is your forced erroneous misunderstanding.
Let us quote all the verses first
551
O you who believe, do not take( certain) Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. God does not guide the transgressors.Bro, I am extremely disappointed with you for interjecting a word in brackets which is not in the original Arabic, and then basing your understanding on the wrongly interjected word.
Peace