Can we have concensus?
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However, this is a purely theoretical discourse, a correct conceptualization of the simultaneity of free will and predestination is not a prerequisite for a right guidance. What is important is that we understand we are fully accountable for the choices that we make - even if they are predetermined.
Yes, this is important to understand.
Peace -
But cannot you see the logical fallacy in saying that you are responsible for something that is predetermined?
I find the whole concept to be weak in logical integrity. It is as if the test loses the cause, too, and that it is redundant to even test anyone if it is also determined what will happen. The logic behind it sounds so distant.
No offense though, I am not responsible for anyone or forcing anyone to anything although I try to offer sound advice and arguments.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Sorry to say, I find your argument very weak.
Do you know that each person is accountable for their own decisions? Then Predetermination is irrelevant.
Since each one of us are not "forced to make any decision" ,why blame anything?
Say I went around telling people whether they will go to hell or heaven by making a 1 in 2 guess. Then it turns out that I was right on few, does that make me responsible for them? Will that make their test here void?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
My argumentation is weak, good logic? Cannot you see that your argumentation is logically weak?
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Peace Man Of Faith.
You still insist on your way!
Oh and you have not said why my argument is weak?
Anyway I am making a guess that you will go to heaven, If I am wrong blame me tomorrow at GOD s, then while you are at it, blame GOD for knowing where you are going to end up as well !!!
But of course there is no way of knowing the outcome of each other.
May GOD bless you and keep you away from "Gehennama"brother.
Peace. -
That is where your logic is failing. God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose. Why is it so hard to see that the predestination argument does not hold up?
Things can be predetermined, but they are not predestined. If Rabb determines something it is destined, but it was not predestined.
A person is responsible for themselves and they have caused themselves to do a certain deed and that deed was not predestined. Of course lifeless people are susceptible to prophetic determinations and could thus be mindlessly fulfilling it against their conscious will, but that is because they had failed to have an own independent soul identity but followed the drive of the flesh, the kind of programming of the world. It is important to stay strong and have a strong conscious awareness to avoid being shepherded by the wrong shepherd.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
You say, quote
God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose.
Sorry but my GOD is "All Knowing". Yes brother ,Knower of everything that exists.
Anyway, GOD knows what you are saying, be careful!
Try this
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/free-will-and-predestination/GOD bless you.
Peace. -
God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose.
Sorry but my GOD is "All Knowing". Yes brother ,Knower of everything that exists.
Anyway, GOD knows what you are saying, be careful!
What does MoF need to be careful about?
If there's a God then definitely He's all knowing...
Given He's all knowing, logically implied that all that has happened was happening 100% in accordance to His will..
As such, what MoF was saying and what you are saying and what I was saying it all happened in accordance to His will.. -
Peace Jafar.
We all need to be careful of what we are saying,in case we tell lies about GOD.
If people have nothing /no reason to be careful, then that is fine by me . They are free beings.
We all make mistakes and are not careful of what we say sometimes anyway.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose. Why is it so hard to see that the predestination argument does not hold up?
Things can be predetermined, but they are not predestined. If Rabb determines something it is destined, but it was not predestined.
A person is responsible for themselves and they have caused themselves to do a certain deed and that deed was not predestined.
Be well
AmenuelHi,
I agree with you on this.
I believe God knows what you are doing now and what you are thinking now and what you are planning now etc but He does not know what you will think tomorrow, because you have not thought your thoughts of tomorrow yet. -
I believe God knows what you are doing now and what you are thinking now and what you are planning now etc but He does not know what you will think tomorrow, because you have not thought your thoughts of tomorrow yet.
) So you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
peace
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Peace Bender.
GOD knows the past , the present and the furture. If GOD knows what you did and what you are doing, then GOD also knows what you will do. As simple as that
7226GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace Bender.
GOD knows the past , the present and the furture. If GOD knows what you did and what you are doing, then GOD also knows what you will do. As simple as that
7226GOD bless you.
PeacePeace good logic,
I don't see how that statement could be inferred by everyone based on the verse you cited. 7226 only seems to be talking about how God knows the unseen.
) So you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
peace
That's a good question. It's so difficult to think beyond the constraints of time that are bound to us in this reality. If we try to think outside time, must one know everything? Or is it possible to know everything and nothing at the same time?
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That's a good question. It's so difficult to think beyond the constraints of time
that are bound to us in this reality. If we try to think outside time, must one know everything?
Or is it possible to know everything and nothing at the same time?We do have Quran Kareem to guide us.
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king
coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly."As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them
with his transgression and disbelief.*"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them.
Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their
treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things
you could not stand."Please read preceding verses for context.
peace
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) So you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
peace
Hi Hawk,
What is time according to you?
What is the purpose of His inspirations and messengers to you if He already knows what you will decide tomorrow?
Peace Bender.
GOD knows the past , the present and the furture. If GOD knows what you did and what you are doing, then GOD also knows what you will do. As simple as that
7226GOD bless you.
PeaceHi GL,
He knows the future of the things which He has predetermined/predestined.
The difference between us humans and other creatures is that we are not predetermined/predestined but that we have it under our own control, we are the authors of our own books.A nice example is the story of Lut's people. At some moment they were predetermined/predestined, if that happens then you are lost, even Ibrahim can not save you
A other example is Firaun, he was not yet predetermined/predestined when Musa was send to him.
2042Salaam,
Bender -
What is time according to you?
What is the purpose of His inspirations and messengers to you if He already knows what you will decide tomorrow?
Peace bender, you answer my question with a question? Could you answer my question first?
Do you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
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Peace bender, you answer my question with a question? Could you answer my question first?
Do you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
Hi Hawk,
I answered your question with a question because I first want to know what you understand under time.
In my view time is just an abstract human invention to "measure" a change between 2 existing moments.
So what is time according to you, then I will try to answer your question.I do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote, if that is what you understand under time.
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Hi Hawk,
I answered your question with a question because I first want to know what you understand under time.
In my view time is just an abstract human invention to "measure" a change between 2 existing moments.
So what is time according to you, then I will try to answer your question.I do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote, if that is what you understand under time.
I agree with your definition of time, I also do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote.
However, I believe we are living through what Allah already knows/created. For us it is year 2016. What year do you think
it is for Allah? Is sura 18 of any value to you?peace
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Peace comrox.
"Al-ghaib" can either mean unseen or future.
In 7226 it means the future.Here is another example with the same meaning
1020They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
We do have Quran Kareem to guide us.
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king
coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly."As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them
with his transgression and disbelief.*"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them.
Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their
treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things
you could not stand."Please read preceding verses for context.
peace
Couldn't that story support the argument that Man of Faith stated in an earlier post?
If Rabb determines something it is destined, but it was not predestined.
God determined that His servant would be inspired with knowledge.
1865 So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him Knowledge from Us.
Now I have to think, what is this knowledge? Knowledge of the future? Knowledge of the present? Knowledge of human nature? Or simply knowledge that something was being requested of him? I feel that the servant having knowledge of the future (in other words, knowing with absolute certainty what was going to happen) is the most unlikely in this scenario. Knowing the future isn't necessary for a person to commit the actions that this servant did.
All of the people and actions that were taking place during this time could be known in the present (ex one could assume that a king will take every good boat by force if he has already begun to take boats by force. Because the action has already started, you can expect it will continue until it is affected somehow). It's possible that God didn't even inspire him to do those specific actions; perhaps this servant was knowledgeable enough to take the best course of action he believed in these scenarios.
If God Wills the boys will grow up well. But at this moment of time I think that the boys still have the choice of extracting their treasure. They may, or may not, at the time the servant is teaching his lesson. It is up to us to accept or deny the mercy of our Lord.
I feel like there was more I wanted to say, but alas, it is gone now. )
Peace. )