Can we have concensus?

hawk99

1865 So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him Knowledge from Us.
All of the people and actions that were taking place during this time could be known in the present (ex one could assume that a king will take every good boat by force if he has already begun to take boats by force. Because the action has already started, you can expect it will continue until it is affected somehow). It's possible that God didn't even inspire him to do those specific actions; perhaps this servant was knowledgeable enough to take the best course of action he believed in these scenarios.

If God Wills the boys will grow up well. But at this moment of time I think that the boys still have the choice of extracting their treasure. They may, or may not, at the time the servant is teaching his lesson. It is up to us to accept or deny the mercy of our Lord.

I feel like there was more I wanted to say, but alas, it is gone now.

Peace. )

) Peace Comrox, The Quran does not support your argument! The Quran states that the boys would grow
up "then" or at that time in the future extract the treasure, no maybe in the ayat. Also the boys would reach maturity!
(not die before then). Also there is no "assume" as you state in your reply.
nope You did not read all of ayat 82 where the person of knowledge states
" I did none of that of my own volition" (he was commanded to). If you think the boys still have a choice?
please provide evidence.

peace

Bender

I agree with your definition of time, I also do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote.
However, I believe we are living through what Allah already knows/created. For us it is year 2016. What year do you think
it is for Allah? Is sura 18 of any value to you?

peace

Hi,

RED Strange question. I said that time is just a human invention.
BLUE Yes. Can you point out where the mysterious man knows the future?
He is not a soothsayer, just read carefully and you will see that he does not know the future.

Bender

Peace comrox, Bender.

In this story GOD is telling you HE knows what is going to happen
285
We willed to compensate those who were oppressed on earth, and to turn them into leaders, and make them the inheritors.

286
And to establish them on earth, and to give Pharaoh, H?m?n, and their troops a taste of their own medicine.

Hi,

In the verses before it is told what Firaun and his company were doing and Allah knows what Firaun and his company think and what their plans are.
As an example you can take IS nowadays. Even I can predict what will happen on earth when IS gets the upper hand. I do not know what is in their minds but from their actions and their propaganda. I believe I can make a relatively accurate prediction. Unlike me Allah knows what they have in mind what their plans are and knows what kind of people they are.

287
We inspired Moses' mother "Nurse him, and when you fear for his life, throw him into the river without fear or grief. We will return him to you, and will make him one of the messengers."

GOD knew all the decisions the people involved were going to make.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Musa was a chosen one, as is pointed out in several verses. Like Allah can decree that you will be lost, He can also decree that you will be a chosen one.

good_logic

Peace Bender.

What is the difference between what you say,quote

Musa was a chosen one, as is pointed out in several verses. Like Allah can decree that you will be lost, He can also decree that you will be a chosen one.

And what I said in my posst i.e that GOD knows what you will do?

I see contradiction in some of your posts ?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Bender.

Let me further confirm for you that GOD knows the past ,the present and the future

Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
Your only god is God; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.

Of course you can look up the original Arabic and choose your own translation.
We are responsible for our own decisions. What GOD knows will not make a difference as far as we are concerned
Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, God will summon you all. God is Omnipotent.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Comrox

Peace Comrox, The Quran does not support your argument! The Quran states that the boys would grow
up "then" or at that time in the future extract the treasure, no maybe in the ayat. Also the boys would reach maturity!
(not die before then). Also there is no "assume" as you state in your reply.
nope You did not read all of ayat 82 where the person of knowledge states
" I did none of that of my own volition" (he was commanded to). If you think the boys still have a choice?
please provide evidence.

peace

Peace Hawk,

So, question, do you think the servant was or became similar to a robot then? That's how I interpreted the last few lines you wrote, so if you could please clarify that. As long as we are not robots I think we always have a choice. And I don't think any of us are robots.

Side comment, interestingly enough, last night I went out to get ice cream at my local ice cream shop, not knowing truly why I had decided to get the ice cream, other than the fact I had been craving it for a few hours. Anyways, the point of this story is that I ended up not having the best night and the uneaten ice cream was there to comfort me... Made me think of those verses.

I'll admit there was also another time that a had a feeling about a motorcycle on the road ahead of me, while I was in a car. There was just something about it. Seconds later I was in a car accident with that motorcycle.

Initution is a funny thing. p

Anyways, now I'm just rambling now.

Peace Bender.

Let me further confirm for you that GOD knows the past ,the present and the future

Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
Your only god is God; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.

Of course you can look up the original Arabic and choose your own translation.
We are responsible for our own decisions. What GOD knows will not make a difference as far as we are concerned
Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, God will summon you all. God is Omnipotent.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Yesterday I came across an old reply by Man of Faith on a different thread (forget which one) but same subject. I thought he had a good reply. (I hope you don't mind me quoting you from an old thread, Man of Faith!)

He first said

"The test would be redundant if Allah knew that answer already. I find it flawed logic. It would mean that Allah just does all this for entertainment and not really have any purpose."

Then he said

"However, Allah knows everything that happens everywhere in the universe in any dimension simultaneously due to omnipresence and actually being existence itself. I consider it like a simulation where Allah has ultimate control. Allah tests our "hearts"."

At my current knowledge and understanding, I agree with the above. (I don't know how else to explain it besides the way Man of Faith wrote it.)

And as we each go further into our debates in this thread we are proving within how little concensus can be reached... rotfl

Bender

Peace Bender.

What is the difference between what you say,quote

Musa was a chosen one, as is pointed out in several verses. Like Allah can decree that you will be lost, He can also decree that you will be a chosen one.

And what I said in my posst i.e that GOD knows what you will do?

I see contradiction in some of your posts ?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace GL,

I think you did not understand my view.

Ok let me explain a bit better.
If I can get in your head right now then it does not mean that I know what you will do tomorrow.
I only know what you are thinking now and not what you will do tomorrow or think tomorrow.
Yes I know your plans for tomorrow but before tomorrow you can change your plans.
Allah knows what is in our minds right now, you think it and He knows it.

In the case of Musa, he was choosen by Allah. If Allah chooses you for something then no one can stop it.
2038
2039
2040
2041

Bender

Peace Bender.

Let me further confirm for you that GOD knows the past ,the present and the future

Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
Your only god is God; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.

Of course you can look up the original Arabic and choose your own translation.

Hi GL,

May I ask from where you got these translations?

Bender

And as we each go further into our debates in this thread we are proving within how little concensus can be reached... rotfl

Hi Comrox,

These are not important things to have a concensus on and we will not be judged for this as far as I know.

good_logic

Peace Bender.

I said you can use your own translation. So what does yours say?

I happen to agree with the translation I gave you .It goes with the context of other verses in Qoran. It also goes with "GOD being All Knowing".

If you say "GOD does not know such..." You are contradicting the statement in Qoran that GOD knows "Everything" there is no exception.

"Wa Hua Bikulli Chaiin Aleem".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Bender

Peace Bender.

I said you can use your own translation. So what does yours say?

Hi GL,

I believe that you already know that some words in your translation are not there.

I happen to agree with the translation I gave you .It goes with the context of other verses in Qoran. It also goes with "GOD being All Knowing".

If you say "GOD does not know such..." You are contradicting the statement in Qoran that GOD knows "Everything" there is no exception.

"Wa Hua Bikulli Chaiin Aleem".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

RED He is knowledgeable of every matter. I fully agree with that. But what is not a matter now is not a matter but nothing.
My thoughts over a year (if I am still alive) are not a matter yet, I do not even know what I wil be thinking in 1 minute so how can that be a matter?

good_logic

Peace Bender.

If GOD knows you, He also knows your innermost thoughts, and what you will do!!!!

Evidence from Qoran
2151

I am not going to translate this verse for you,since you do not like the translation I use.
However ,you cannot say GOD did not know what Abraham was going to be thinking and what decisions he was going to make. Are you?

But no doubt you are going to keep going around the problem, but Qoran backs the view that GOD knows everything i.e that there is predestination as far as GOD is concerned but not as far as we are concerned. We still make our own decisions
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Bender

Hi GL,

What is the purpose of a messenger or inspiration?

548 "... ...." and many other verses.
What is the purpose of this?

savage_carrot

Bender,

Are you saying that God is retroactive in a way and springs into action after events unfold? Or that he is waiting in a sense to see what we do? I also don't see how any purpose an inspiration or a messenger may have that could be related to God knowing everything as opposed to us? Is the idea here that God would have no need to do this if He already knew what we would do or something to that effect?

good_logic

Peace Bender.

GOD wants us to believe Him and His word and to show appreciation ( we have the choice), I believe the test is to bring out our true conviction. Will we succeed in our redemption? It is for us to decide. GOD already knows the outcome. We do not know!!!

..... God wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify God for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
We have endowed Luqmaan with wisdom "You shall be appreciative of God." Whoever is appreciative is appreciative for his own good. As for those who turn unappreciative, God is in no need, Praiseworthy.
Your Lord is full of grace towards the people, but most of them are unappreciative.
Say, "Shall I tell you who the worst losers are?
"They are the ones whose works in this life are totally astray, but they think that they are doing good."
Such are the ones who disbelieved in the revelations of their Lord and in meeting Him. Therefore, their works are in vain; on the Day of Resurrection, they have no weight.

The two things are independent of each other. GOD knowing everything and us choosing our destiny.

GOD is not bound by the past ,the present and the future. As far as GOD is concerned the future has already happened.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Recluse

Peace Bender.

GOD wants us to believe Him and His word

Why would He want us to "believe" Him? Belief in God does not make the world a better place, does it? And I doubt that God needs our belief in Him.

Why is the Qur'an only in Arabic? If Arabs were born in China they would have been Buddhist now. What would have happened to them in that case? Were they simply lucky? Were Iran or Egypt just lucky to have been conquered by Arabs? Poor French, Italians, Mexicans, Japanese, Koreans and most of the world really. Those lucky Arab bastards and the people they conquered!

In the second part of your sentence you say "and His word".

Again, are His words only found in the Arabic Qur'an? Why? Is God an Arab? Are Arabs God's chosen people? Tell that to the Jews. Why didn't He sent books to other regions of the world? Or were the people in those regions simply created for eternal Hellfire? Does God love torturing people who have done nothing wrong?

Why are there so many religions in the world? How can we know which is the word of God? According to Christians you will go to an eternal Hell because you don't accept Jesus as your Lord. Can't you see how incredibly illogical and absurd all these "beliefs" are?

good_logic

Peace Recluse.
Some say God is unjust because He allows evil or God is just but He cannot always prevent evil.

Others justify injustice, cruelty and arbitrariness of their actions as a result of the will of God.

As humans, we find it hard to understand why bad things happen to us and why there is a lack of order and misery on earth. But God teaches us that there is always a reason for everything that happens .

My opinion is GOD gives us the answers in His scripture.

You are a free being, I am not your guardian. Am I asking you to do anything or forcing you to follow a religion?

I am responsible for me and you are responsible for you.
Brother, I am simply giving my opinion/understanding like you are giving yours!

Like I said to you in the other thread. The minimum requirements does not ask you to believe in scriptures or messengers or religions.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Man_of_Faith

If you only had the true account on your mind, Recluse, like I have. It would be a great relief for you.

God/Rabb is not what people think in general, not at all.

And what people are to do to gain salvation and a real being is also not what people tend to think.

Be well
Amenuel

Recluse

If you only had the true account on your mind, Recluse, like I have. It would be a great relief for you.

God/Rabb is not what people think in general, not at all.

And what people are to do to gain salvation and a real being is also not what people tend to think.

Be well
Amenuel

Sounds all so vague, nobody really knows what or who God really is, His nature, or what He truly wants from humans..

We just fear Him and His Hell, and thus, become fundamentalists... blindly clinging to many unquestioned dogmas that do not make any sense.

Peace peace

hawk99

Peace Bender.

GOD is not bound by the past ,the present and the future. As far as GOD is concerned the future has already happened.

True, Did God create something that he is bound by? nope

Peace Hawk,

So, question, do you think the servant was or became similar to a robot then?

One way to understand time(s) is with Einstein's theory of relativity.

We are bound by the illusion of time.

Something we see as the future has already taken place depending on the vantage point!

The above is proven science.

Therefore what is the future for us is not the future for all.

This video may be helpful

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZQxMowBsw

peace