Can we have concensus?

Armanaziz

No, there can never be any consensus in religions. Just try to be human, don't do onto others what you don't want others to do onto you. That one rule alone would turn the world into a paradise. If there is a God, which is highly likely in my opinion, then He must be the God of all human beings on earth. Either he loves us all or none of us.

Hope you read the opening post.

Recluse

Hope you read the opening post.

Peace Arman,

My apologies, I hadn't but I'm reading your post now and fully agree with all of your 10 points. Blind faith in any book is wrong and has tragic consequences. We can't build a civilization, a functioning economy, rule of law, architecture, education, science or anything else based on any religious book written thousands of years ago. There are many things in the Qur'an that are completely unacceptable to any thinking and sincere person. It's now perfectly clear to me that the majority of the Qur'an is not universal, but directly related to the Arabs of 1400 years ago in a certain socio-cultural-historical context. Unfortunately it took me many years to recover from this religious fundamentalism and literalism that had been torturing my brain and soul my whole life.. for the first time in my life I feel genuinely free.

Your point 8 is one of the most truthful and most important statements I have ever heard...

"8. That in determining what is fair, what is good and pure vs. what is deplorable, evil and immoral our final standard should be the most sincere application of our own intellect and conscience ? we must avoid blind faith in any book / dogma / preacher or tradition. (By blind faith I mean a faith that wants us to shut off our intellect and conscience.)"

Indeed, that is what I meant by a tortured mind and soul. I had been able to shut of my intellect to a certain extent, but I could never shut off my conscience. I could never understand why God would allow men to beat their wives; why women should obey their husbands; why non-Muslims are all going to an eternal Hell etc. I actually never believed any of that, but I FORCED myself not to dwell on it. I'm not afraid anymore to be an "apostate", I reject the notion of a God who will burn people in an eternal Hell. I reject a God who is an Arab or a Muslim, Jew or Christian. I reject the notion of a pathetic and psychopathic God who feels so "insulted" by people not believing in Him that he will torture them. I reject a God who needs anger management classes; a God who is immoral, injust, despotic and insane.

Comrox

Peace Arman,

My apologies, I hadn't but I'm reading your post now and fully agree with all of your 10 points. Blind faith in any book is wrong and has tragic consequences. We can't build a civilization, a functioning economy, rule of law, architecture, education, science or anything else based on any religious book written thousands of years ago. There are many things in the Qur'an that are completely unacceptable to any thinking and sincere person. It's now perfectly clear to me that the majority of the Qur'an is not universal, but directly related to the Arabs of 1400 years ago in a certain socio-cultural-historical context. Unfortunately it took me many years to recover from this religious fundamentalism and literalism that had been torturing my brain and soul my whole life.. for the first time in my life I feel genuinely free.

Your point 8 is one of the most truthful and most important statements I have ever heard...

"8. That in determining what is fair, what is good and pure vs. what is deplorable, evil and immoral our final standard should be the most sincere application of our own intellect and conscience ? we must avoid blind faith in any book / dogma / preacher or tradition. (By blind faith I mean a faith that wants us to shut off our intellect and conscience.)"

Indeed, that is what I meant by a tortured mind and soul. I had been able to shut of my intellect to a certain extent, but I could never shut off my conscience. I could never understand why God would allow men to beat their wives; why women should obey their husbands; why non-Muslims are all going to an eternal Hell etc. I actually never believed any of that, but I FORCED myself not to dwell on it. I'm not afraid anymore to be an "apostate", I reject the notion of a God who will burn people in an eternal Hell. I reject a God who is an Arab or a Muslim, Jew or Christian. I reject the notion of a pathetic and psychopathic God who feels so "insulted" by people not believing in Him that he will torture them. I reject a God who needs anger management classes; a God who is immoral, injust, despotic and insane.

Peace Recluse,

Where do you stand now if I may ask?

Jafar

Just try to be human, don't do onto others what you don't want others to do onto you. That one rule alone would turn the world into a paradise.

Indeed it will..
The ability to do just that is embedded in (most) of us, it's called "empathy"..
It need nurture and training though..

Recluse

Peace Recluse,

Where do you stand now if I may ask?

Peace Comrox,

Of course you may...

I still believe in one Creator based on the evidence I see in the DNA, the laws of the universe and so many other things (too many to mention here), but I have come to the conclusion that all God wants from us humans is to be good and just and that all human beings are equal. I also believe that probably there must be some form of punishment for evil people who murder, invade, plunder, rape etc. But I no longer believe in organized religions claiming that in order to be saved from "eternal Hell" you must join their exclusive "club".

Recluse

Wow, I disagree with all ten points of light, and I haven't even read them yet!

Ok let me read them now.

Nope! Grateful for what?! No way! All that stuff sucks! I wanted to be even greater than this! I was given an imagination just that it tortures me with all the things I am not! I could've had an immune body! No! My education!? That I know of suffering and horror?! Yuck! No no no! (Listening to the song From Rusholme with Love).
What does my gratitude have to do with being fair? Why should I be "fair" when things are not "fair" to me? No, I think our goodness should stem from our acknowledgment of the misery, the plight of ourselves shared by all the other sufferers of life and existence under less than ideal conditions, not at all from gratitude, but from sorrow. That I am sooo sorry you were born here, let me be a little kindness for you, before I cause you to suffer, even on accident. I want them to give me all kinds of good, I don't care for "fairness", if I do wrong I do not want it counted against me, if they do wrong, I want justice to be taken on them. I do not want the thief to get away with stealing, and I do not want to be accused of stealing. Is anything ever fair? Was it fair in the beginning? This world is made of unfairness and imbalance is behind it all. Are we equals with God? Is there any fairness? Is there any balance or symmetry really?
No, I do not want to be held accountable for anything at all, that would be a dreadful thing to desire. Never. I do not concede to this law or to justice systems at all, only out of fear that they might bite me in the end, though I would use them advantageously if necessary. Yuck to such things though! If I murder and do evil, I do not want to be harmed ever, nor to be accused of harm, and if my associates are murdering thieves, I do not want them to be harmed either, only if they are unfavorable to me do I want measures to be taken against them. I want good from Allah for free, based on nothing, I want to be showered in blessings from the beginning to eternity, and such should graciously be given to all if there was any such grace, but I don't care if they get it or not, only that I do and those I care for.
People find my beautiful speeches deplorable at times, so no, I think there is no definition vast enough to encompass all the differences in opinion about what constitutes this or that. A better number 4 for me would be to respect and love FreedomStands and FreedomStands dictates based on his moods whatever is good or bad at any given moment. Of course, it is not so, since FreedomStands is not God, but perhaps things would be better if it were so, or does power always lead to the creation of immense suffering and its toleration?
What does not rightfully belong to us? What does not rightfully belong to us? Uh? Nothing rightfully belongs to us, nothing "rightfully" or "rightly" belongs to ANYTHING. What "right" in the sense of Justice, does God the creator have in creating and causing suffering? Do you think that just because you've created something you have no responsibility towards its treatment? That if you were to make a robot, you have the right to slash its face however you please? Who pleases? None of this is "right". We are all destitute and poor vagabonds in the world, and "right" has nothing to do with it, it seems, in any sense of the word.
Not at all. My view is to examine those things, and utilize that energy towards channeling it in ways which are beneficial for oneself and one's loved ones rather than having to restrain anything. There can be right Hatred, right Envy, right Fear, right Sadness, right Lying (jokes for example), and whatever else. There is no need to restrain your lustful desire, but to use it in ways that will empower yourself and benefit yourself. So Lust rightfully, Hate rightfully, Kill rightfully, and all righteousness and nobility stems from the Fear of Allah the Terror.
We have no such obligation, nor can anyone accomplish such a thing, except those cursed to do so (such as myself). How cruel that something should be called an obligation, when the people are not even capable of it in the first place. Like asking a mental retard to do some extremely complex thing and saying its their obligation. They can't do it, and the Qur'an says whether you tell them or not, they are like dogs lolling out their tongues regardless. The disbelievers are free, just like they had hoped, they have no obligation to do right, it is their duty to do wrong, that is their function in this world as Allah intends it to be.
Those who follow their hearts and their minds seem to be just as astray as those who follow the hearts and minds of others. To hell with them all. I do not believe in the capacity of people to determine what is right for themselves, so they should listen to me instead. It is cruel to ask a brain-dead population to think for themselves, what they come up with is more stupidity, because they are dumb, what do you expect of them? The Qur'an clearly says their "hearts" as in their "minds" or "understandings" are Diseased, they are mentally ill, why are you asking for the impossible? It is Allah who has made them that way, it says so in the Qur'an even and regardless of what the Qur'an says, is it not apparent?
What does it matter about the remorseful aspect except to entertain others? How was it a "mistake"? If it was a "mistake" then what are they feeling remorseful about, as it was not intentional? If it was intentional, it was not a mistake, and again they did it on purpose so why were they not "remorseful" ahead of time? No, humans are incapable of regret truly, they regret the consequences, not the actions they did happily in the first place, the sinning scum. Their regret would only be to please us, but we can never be pleased, because they can never truly regret!
Nothing to do with fairness. If a man gives me a good deal, I take it, unless I perceive its a bad deal. Someone offered me an expensive book for 5 dollars, I had very little money, I took it as a gift from Allah. Nothing to do with fairness.

So my prediction was true after all. I disagreed with the ten points of light and tried to provide thereby things to ponder and meditate on. Of course, very few will, instead you will take it as an attempt to merely disagree, rather than an attempt to induce thoughtful meditations on perhaps deeper truths.

Your points are good, and it would have seemed that anyone would quickly agree with them without deriving any benefit from trying to see it otherwise. Then again, FreedomStands!

Classic symptoms of sociopaths and psychopaths, there is a special place in Hell for people like you.

Armanaziz

Peace Comrox,

Of course you may...

I still believe in one Creator based on the evidence I see in the DNA, the laws of the universe and so many other things (too many to mention here), but I have come to the conclusion that all God wants from us humans is to be good and just and that all human beings are equal. I also believe that probably there must be some form of punishment for evil people who murder, invade, plunder, rape etc. But I no longer believe in organized religions claiming that in order to be saved from "eternal Hell" you must join their exclusive "club".

Salam Recluse.

To supplement what you said above. I also put my faith upon the One God who is the Originator and the Sustainer of everything that is in the heaven and earth, and I am convinced that Our Master wants us to carry with us the love (and mercy) with which He created this universe and strive towards collective growth and wellbeing through peace and fair-dealing.

Those who are faithful to this God-gifted responsibility which is imprinted in our conscience, and thereby act righteously ? they are the ones - the society of garden ? they promote mutual peace and well-being like a self-sustaining interdependent ecosystem (a garden with flowing stream underneath) ? and they will be in this state permanently.

But those who seek the path of division and hatred and pursue selfish, or narrow sectarian goals at the expense of others ? they are the ones the society of fire ? they burn down into lower degraded status in the fire of envy, war and ingratitude that they themselves are fuel to. And they too will be in that state permanently.

My Master has guided me to see the above simple message in Qur?an and so in it I put my faith. To me a religion (with its scriptures, rituals and beliefs) is just an organized effort to provide a framework within which one can remain devoted to the cause of God. It is by no way a membership of a club of the salvaged people. Just like we need universities to pursue knowledge in organized manners, or need political institutions to pursue good governance, religion is supposed to provide us an organized framework to practice our piety and consciousness. No university should claim the monopoly of knowledge, no political party should claim the monopoly over good governance - and by the same token no religion can or should claim monopoly over God's mercy or guidance. Unfortunately virtually all religions of the world have been misunderstood and misused for petty sectarian and political gains. But that blame should be put on the people who have misused it, not on religion itself.

So once again ? let me clarify, I do not put my blind faith upon the God of any book or religion. But rather I put faith in the God who has created me and given me my senses. Through Qur?an I heard the call from our Messenger to put faith in my Master ? so I put faith and hope for mercy of my Master. Perhaps this view is better articulated in this verses

3190 Indeed in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and daylight are surely signs for the men of discretion.

3191 Those who remember God standing or sitting or (reclining) on their sides and who ponder about the creation of the heavens and the earth ?Our Master, you have not created this in deceit. Exalted are You! Then preserve us from the suffering of the fire.?

3192 ?Our Master, indeed whomever You admit into the fire, then surely You have disgraced him and there are no helpers for the wrongdoers.?

3193 ?Our Master, indeed we have heard a summoner summoning, towards faith, saying, ?Put faith in your Master.? So we put faith. Our Master, then forgive our misdeeds from us and suppress our faults for us and let us pass away along with the pious.?

3194 ?Our Master, also (please) give us what You promised us through your messengers and (please) not disgrace us on the day of rising - indeed You do not break the (promised) appointment.?

(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)

If you do not see the call towards your God in Qur?an, but rather see a call to worship a foreign deity, I would assume that is most likely because the true message of the book has not reached you yet. Perhaps like so many others to you as well Qur'an is pretty much "lost in translation". Perhaps it is better for you to not discuss something which - as of now - you do not understand. But under no circumstances would I recommend you to put blind faith upon a certain interpretation of the book. Your intellect and conscience is your direct and personal obligation to your Master. So be slave to Him by upholding your own sense of right and wrong. Seek guidance in Qur'an (or any book / messenger for that matter) only when your conscience and intellect demands you to do so.

God is your Master and my Master. So let us be slave to Him. That is the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Healthy perception, Recluse. You have understood that God/Rabb had the intention for you to realize yourself in terms of personal development. And it did not have to do with mere belief but total realization, i.e. you shaped yourself into a person with an independent identity rather than "a sheep who follows others blindly" in Homo Sapiens innate instinctive manner.

Thumbs up.

Be well
Amenuel

Recluse

Salam Recluse.

God is your Master and my Master. So let us be slave to Him. That is the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Salam Arman,

Just wanted to mention this very common and misunderstood slave-master concept in the Qur'an. I don't believe that we are slaves of God nor that God wants us to be His slaves. These terms should be understood in its proper historical-cultural perspective when human relations were that of master and slave. Especially in Arabia but also in Rome, Persia and so on. The language and rhetoric of the Qur'an is largely directed at those Arabs of 1400 years ago. I mean it is directly related to how those Arabs in that era and region thought, and entirely suited to their socio-economic-cultural situation and understanding. Sorry my English is far from perfect, I hope you understand what I was trying say..

Recluse

Healthy perception, Recluse. You have understood that God/Rabb had the intention for you to realize yourself in terms of personal development. And it did not have to do with mere belief but total realization, i.e. you shaped yourself into a person with an independent identity rather than "a sheep who follows others blindly" in Homo Sapiens innate instinctive manner.

Thumbs up.

Be well
Amenuel

Thanks Emmanuel, well said, I enjoy reading your posts..

Comrox

Peace Comrox,

Of course you may...

I still believe in one Creator based on the evidence I see in the DNA, the laws of the universe and so many other things (too many to mention here), but I have come to the conclusion that all God wants from us humans is to be good and just and that all human beings are equal. I also believe that probably there must be some form of punishment for evil people who murder, invade, plunder, rape etc. But I no longer believe in organized religions claiming that in order to be saved from "eternal Hell" you must join their exclusive "club".

Peace Recluse,

Very wise words. I agree with you; I don't believe in organized religion either. Thank you for sharing.

@Arman - Your original post is beautifully worded and I agree with it as well.

Armanaziz

Salam Arman,

Just wanted to mention this very common and misunderstood slave-master concept in the Qur'an. I don't believe that we are slaves of God nor that God wants us to be His slaves. These terms should be understood in its proper historical-cultural perspective when human relations were that of master and slave. Especially in Arabia but also in Rome, Persia and so on. The language and rhetoric of the Qur'an is largely directed at those Arabs of 1400 years ago. I mean it is directly related to how those Arabs in that era and region thought, and entirely suited to their socio-economic-cultural situation and understanding. Sorry my English is far from perfect, I hope you understand what I was trying say..

Salam Recluse.

Leaving the Qur'an aside for a moment, even if I contemplate from an independent perspective - I have not caused my birth into this world. I have not chosen my parents - nor my friends and relatives and society - nor even my race or species! The schools and institutions I attended were all chosen because of situational demand. I know I own nothing. Everything is owned by my Master who is running the show. Even my body I don't own. If my Master wishes my heart would stop beating this very moment, OR my body or part of it can be paralyzed. It is not at all a matter of whether God wants us to be His slave or not - it is what it is. Just like the characters in a novel are slave to the novelist - we are slave to the One who has set up this whole phenomenon of physical existence and created us as pockets of consciousness to experience His creation. There is simply no other way. So, I am not reluctant to recognize myself as slave to my Master. Even my thoughts and emotions are synchronized with the events in the outside world upon which I have no control. If my Master willed I could have been born as a crippled child in a penniless family. If He willed from that position I could have conquered the world. Everything in the heavens and earth - from the mighty stars to the tiny atoms - are all slave to the Master of the universe - willingly or under compulsion. Well! For my Master is the creation and the command ? blessed is God the Master of the universe.

Thus, I humbly submit to my Master by upholding my sense of right and wrong that He has bestowed me. If my Master does not guide me I have absolutely no chance. God is your Master and my Master. Let us be slave to Him. That is the straight way.

Regards,

Arman

Man_of_Faith

Your perception is flawed, Arman. It is logically impaired. I mean it does not matter if you know of right or wrong because it does not really matter as God controls everything. This is the same flaw as in FreedomStands perception.

You have more control than in a novel and it is more like you are a player in the game world of a video game. You still are exposed to the programming of the game, but you choose what to do with the situation at hand. You are pretty much on your own and must use your own willpower to steer right in the world in order to reconcile with your Rabb and even then you are a person of your own.

Following the directives of Rabb you do for your own sanity in order not to succumb to your own flesh of the world, becoming obsessed with the features of the game world and stuck therein. It would be like you were cursed to play the same game over and over again each day and never do anything else ever. Almost like you were once a player but sucked into the screen and placed for real inside the game.

Be well
Amenuel

Armanaziz

Your perception is flawed, Arman. It is logically impaired. I mean it does not matter if you know of right or wrong because it does not really matter as God controls everything. This is the same flaw as in FreedomStands perception.

You have more control than in a novel and it is more like you are a player in the game world of a video game. You still are exposed to the programming of the game, but you choose what to do with the situation at hand. You are pretty much on your own and must use your own willpower to steer right in the world in order to reconcile with your Rabb and even then you are a person of your own.

Following the directives of Rabb you do for your own sanity in order not to succumb to your own flesh of the world, becoming obsessed with the features of the game world and stuck therein. It would be like you were cursed to play the same game over and over again each day and never do anything else ever. Almost like you were once a player but sucked into the screen and placed for real inside the game.

Be well
Amenuel

Sorry I disagree with your understanding above. I do not will except my Master wills. It is like the beauty of rose. Do we perceive a rose as beautiful because we perceive it as such or because the rose is beautiful by its own right? The answer is - both is true. The perception of beauty and the existence of beauty are simultaneous events. Similarly our will and God's will dictating our will are simultaneous. Like opposite sides of the same coin.

We exercise our freewill to earn our destiny, not to create it. We earn our destiny because of what we deserve. Everything is from our Master - we control nothing.

I do not intend to push this into a debate. There are other dedicated threads for the topic of free will and predetermination. Please feel free to discuss there. However, this is a purely theoretical discourse, a correct conceptualization of the simultaneity of free will and predestination is not a prerequisite for a right guidance. What is important is that we understand we are fully accountable for the choices that we make - even if they are predetermined.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Zulf

However, this is a purely theoretical discourse, a correct conceptualization of the simultaneity of free will and predestination is not a prerequisite for a right guidance. What is important is that we understand we are fully accountable for the choices that we make - even if they are predetermined.

Yes, this is important to understand.
Peace

Man_of_Faith

But cannot you see the logical fallacy in saying that you are responsible for something that is predetermined?

I find the whole concept to be weak in logical integrity. It is as if the test loses the cause, too, and that it is redundant to even test anyone if it is also determined what will happen. The logic behind it sounds so distant.

No offense though, I am not responsible for anyone or forcing anyone to anything although I try to offer sound advice and arguments.

Be well
Amenuel

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.

Sorry to say, I find your argument very weak.

Do you know that each person is accountable for their own decisions? Then Predetermination is irrelevant.

Since each one of us are not "forced to make any decision" ,why blame anything?

Say I went around telling people whether they will go to hell or heaven by making a 1 in 2 guess. Then it turns out that I was right on few, does that make me responsible for them? Will that make their test here void?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

My argumentation is weak, good logic? Cannot you see that your argumentation is logically weak?

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.

You still insist on your way!

Oh and you have not said why my argument is weak?

Anyway I am making a guess that you will go to heaven, If I am wrong blame me tomorrow at GOD s, then while you are at it, blame GOD for knowing where you are going to end up as well !!!

But of course there is no way of knowing the outcome of each other.

May GOD bless you and keep you away from "Gehennama"brother.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

That is where your logic is failing. God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose. Why is it so hard to see that the predestination argument does not hold up?

Things can be predetermined, but they are not predestined. If Rabb determines something it is destined, but it was not predestined.

A person is responsible for themselves and they have caused themselves to do a certain deed and that deed was not predestined. Of course lifeless people are susceptible to prophetic determinations and could thus be mindlessly fulfilling it against their conscious will, but that is because they had failed to have an own independent soul identity but followed the drive of the flesh, the kind of programming of the world. It is important to stay strong and have a strong conscious awareness to avoid being shepherded by the wrong shepherd.

Be well
Amenuel