Islam was never as peaceful as you claim.
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Hi everyone,
First I would like to point that I am not here to argue or troll but I am very intersted in finding the truth(so the real God or the lack of him) and Quran-only islam really draw my strong attention. However, I try to be as critical as possible and whenever I find something controversial I try to challange(after own research of course) people who know the topic and might be smarter than me, therefore are able to straighten my supposedly false views. I will be really pleased to find out in those discussion that I am mistaken.So my problem for now is that claim of Quran-only muslims, that islam is is rather peaceful religion is false in my opinion. Quran itself provide lines promoting both peace and war. Therefore it's quite open to interpration. I've read peaceful interpretions and they are quite covincing. However, we cannot lie to ourselves and the best way to examine how to interpret those verses is looking at the practices of Muhammad and first muslims. To check that we have to look for historic resources and we have two kinds of them
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Muslims resources Hadits etc. I know they were collected many years after the Muhammad therefore many of them are fake but still they are rather not completely out of touch with reality there have to be some truth in them and they do depict attitude's of those times. And hadiths suggesting that slaying people took place.
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Non-muslim resources
The oldest surviving resource is a poorly preserved report of syriac christian about conquest. Report comes from 637
"... and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) Emesa , and many villages were ruined with killing by Muhammad and a great number of people were killed and captives from Galilee as far as Bth and those Arabs pitched camp beside and we saw everywhe and oive oil which they brought and them. And on the tth of May went Srius]... cattle from the vicinity of Emesa and the Romans chased them and on the tenth the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus many some 10,000. And at the turn ar the Romans came; and on the twentieth of August in the year nseven there gathered in Gabitha the Romans and great many people were ki omans, some fifty thousand "
The text from bracket's is added by scholars since the document is poorly preserved.
text from 640
"AG 945, indiction VII On Friday, 4 February, at the ninth hour, there was a battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muhammad in Palestine twelve miles east of Gaza. The Romans fled, leaving behind the patrician YRDN (Syr. BRYRDN), whom the Arabs killed. Some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans. The Arabs ravaged the whole region.
AG 947, indiction IX The Arabs invaded the whole of Syria and went down to Persia and conquered it; the Arabs climbed mountain of Mardin and killed many monks there in Kedar and Benth. There died the blessed man Simon, doorkeeper of Qedar, brother of Thomas the priest."
Text from 660
At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet , a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you
Another text from 660
Then God raised up against them the sons of Ishmael, as the sand on the sea shore, whose leader (mdabbrnā was Muhammad (mhmd). Neither walls nor gates, armour or shield, withstood them, and they gained control over the entire land of the Persians. Yazdgird sent against them countless troops, but the Arabs routed them all and even killed Rustam. Yazdgird shut himself up in the walls of Mahoze and finally escaped by flight. He reached the country of the Huzaye and Mrwnaye, where he ended his life. The Arabs gained countrol of Mahoze and all the territory. They also came to Byzantine territory, plundering and ravaging the entire region of Syria. Heraclius, the Byzantine king, sent armies against them, but the Arabs killed more than 100,000 of them.
Text from 687
Having let their dispute run its course, after much fighting had taken place between them, the Westerners, whom they call the sons of ?Ammy, gained the victory, and one of their number, a man called M?awy , became king controlling the two kingdoms, of the Persians and of the Byzantines. Justice flourished in his time, and there was great peace in the regions under his control; he allowed everyone to live as they wanted. For they held, as I have said above, an ordinance, stemming from the man who was their guide (mhaddynā, concerning the people of the Christians and concerning the monastic station. Also as a result of this man's guidance (mhaddyntā they held to the worship of One God, in accordance with the customs of ancient law. At the beginnings they kept to the traditions (ma?lmntā of Muhammad, who was their instructor (t?rā, to such an extent that they inflicted the death penalty on anyone who was seen to act brazenly against his laws.
This one is extra interesting because it's suggesting that already the first muslims who were learning from Muhammad himself were more like sunni's not quran-only muslims.
We should also keep on mind that during the first years of islam the empire spread wide by the conqests
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam#/media/FileMap_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svgTo sum up; both possible resources(muslim and non-muslims) suggest similiar thing; that Muhammad together with first muslims were attacking, conqesting and what's most important; slaying people. While conquering lands could be somehow justified(especially quoting " Justice flourished in his time, and there was great peace in the regions under his control; he allowed everyone to live as they wanted." slaying monks and civilians cannot. So is islam(and Muhhamad himself) cruel religion? If all resources suggests that Muhammad started cruel wars isn't talking about peace on islam lying to your own? While the radical sunnis are those who practice islam exactly how it should be practiced?
Resource
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html -
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And how do you know those text were not written by biased Christians that had the intentions of discrediting Muslims? Romans and Byzantines were also good at massacring big time. The Romans were good at killing Jews and anybody else that opposed their beliefs. The Byzantine empire had about 100,000?400,000 soldiers fighting against 24,000?40,000 Arab Muslims and better equipped too and still the Arabs won. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yarmouk In reality there is no evidence that Muhammad even existed. Removing the Hadiths will not prove that Muhammad was a good man letalone a bad man. In reality, he could have been a good man or a bad man or he did not even exist at all. It's the same with Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc. In my opinion, religion has not contributed anything of value to the world at all. There have been many massacres over religious beliefs. Imagine if religions did not exist at all then those things wouldn't happen. However to say that Islam is the only religion responsible is very moronic. All religions are terrible.
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@Friend with an arabic nickname I am not here to compare islam to other religions so the fact that others religions did evil isn't a justify for Islam.
@hicham9 That's not really relevant to my problem.
@mmkhan I don't think it's really possible. Since Quran mentions Muhammad by his name and praise him as a good man you cannot really remove him from Islam. Also it would be beyond logic to choose as a Messanger a person who would not be a good example of how to believe. Anyway answering your question; if I remove those stories from Islam I see it as a system which advocates for peace if possible but clearly war is an important and often prefered solution in case of injustice or any aggressive attitude of an enemy.
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I did not say that other religion did evil 'justify Islam'. I even said ALL religion is terrible in my previous post for this reason. And for a moment I assumed you were one of those people that attack Islam while barely giving focus on Christianity and Judaism too and even worse; acting as if those religion are any better. Romans and the Byzantines were both evil. So it was evil dealing with evil.
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Peace McKenna.
Can I ask you a couple of questions please?
1- What do you mean by "peaceful"?
( For example I am very peaceful, but I have the right to defend myself. Is this "peaceful " to you?
2- What do you mean by "Islam"?
For example I say Muhammed did not preach or /bring a religion called"Islam ? I say "true Islam" existed way before Muhammed.
Hopefully ,once this is clarified,we can then pursue the discussion.
GOD bless you
Peace/ -
@mmkhan I don't think it's really possible. Since Quran mentions Muhammad by his name and praise him as a good man you cannot really remove him from Islam. Also it would be beyond logic to choose as a Messanger a person who would not be a good example of how to believe. Anyway answering your question; if I remove those stories from Islam I see it as a system which advocates for peace if possible but clearly war is an important and often prefered solution in case of injustice or any aggressive attitude of an enemy.
Peace brother,
I think your understanding is wrong. Please take a look at this?
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Peace good logic
Don't confuse me with pacifist, I am not the one and I don't think pacifism is the right way to go. However according to resources first muslims crossed the limits of self-defence too far.
- Let me make it easier and write what is NOT peaceful(makes also the concept of Divine justice ununderstandable for me);
"Some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans. The Arabs ravaged the whole region."
"the Arabs climbed mountain of Mardin and killed many monks there in Kedar and Benth. There died the blessed man Simon, doorkeeper of Qedar, brother of Thomas the priest."
"The Arabs gained countrol of Mahoze and all the territory. They also came to Byzantine territory, plundering and ravaging the entire region of Syria. "
There are more.
- The concept of world, God and everything depicted in Quran.
Peace mmkhan
I've read that, it's interesting. However do you claim that man mentioned in my non-muslim resources who is called there as Muhammad and is leader of Arabs isn't a Messanger of God who brought Quran? Where is Quran coming from then? Who and when wrote it? -
Hello McKenna36,
Thanks for bringing up point. I actually think Quran was hijacked by some man who proclaimed himself as Muhammad in the 600s AD (an impostor) but Quran actually written before that time, perhaps a 100-200 years before it. The bloodthirst of those historical fragments that you gave in your post go against what you find if you reinterpret the whole Quran and decipher it as intended by the author. Quran was exposed to some ancient plot with political motives. It is clear that Quran's interpretation is twisted to rally for war and incite strong hatred towards "disbelievers".
It is wrong to say that the Middle-Eastern communities before the Islamic onslaught had a bad time under Roman influence because I have studied many historical documents. The Roman Empire brought many inventions to the people of Arabia and the Nabeteans cooperated to a great extent with the Romans being prosperous merchants.
You know the official historical account does not add up. Most people in historical records classify the ancient Arabs as barbarians in their conquests, even if the Romans were not always any better, but they had a more sophisticated society with Laws in my opinion after been studying documents from all sides. People looked at what we call 'Human Rights' today 2015 in a different way. Critics are also not aware that the Greco-Roman Empire lasted for many centuries and there were ups and down when it came to righteousness among the authorities. While it committed atrocities, it had a varying approach by the government. There was even an era with peace that lasted for some hundred years.
The "modern" Arabic script was invented in the 5th century approximately, and I suspect Quran was one of the earliest work in this scripting language if not even the first as tailored for this Arabic text.
When deciphered using "a different methodology, and setting bias aside a, different version of Quran emerges. The emerged doctrine is however totally incompatible with the sect Islam and very Gnostic in style and follows the teachings of Jesus in very great detail. It is talking about being "One with God". Islam is not a name but it is a common descriptive word for a specific type of person who is sound (sane). People did not refer to themselves as Muslim before these heresies occurred in the 7th century and onwards even if 'salam/shalom' as been a word for thousands of years in the Semitic languages referring to healthiness. Salam as a greeting means 'Be well' or 'be healthy'.
I know people who believed in the Abrahamic monotheistic God usually referred to themselves a Jew which means 'recognized' basically, but the word Jew (Yahood) does have a hijacked meaning today. And in ancient times they saw themselves as Children of God. It is controversial, but I argue Bani Israel (Children of Israel) is a codename for Children of God where I deciphered Israel as 'chief'. Any people who acknowledges God the right way are 'Bani Israel', since it is entirely on Spirit level. Obviously God used cryptic language in all times in order to deceive the hypocrites and fools. Not even Allah is a word for God but it refers to "Who Be Such as It" while 'Rabb' is God in Arabic.
Well, you may see that many members detest me for these views and insights into the Kingdom of God. These are entirely my views and I perform independent research with as little bias as possible and I avoid taking sides including on sects but right should be right. And I think it will cause some disturbance when I say that I am a 'son of God' too and I have no qualms with it
Be well
Emanuel -
How about a bit of research?
and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) Emesa , and many villages were ruined with killing by Muhammad and a great number of people were killed and captives from Galilee as far as Bth
Check pg 188-189 https//goo.gl/BkG6X7
AG 945, indiction VII On Friday, 4 February, at the ninth hour
Check battle of Dathin https//goo.gl/mQqJVO
It is a bizarre battle. Romans and historians state that Arabs were raiding the land, but they don?t mention why this raiding didn?t include use of weapons and why the people they were raiding didn?t put any obstacle. But the funny thing is that the battle was started by the romans apparently because they thought Arabs were becoming victorious.At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet , a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher the path of truth. He taught
How about some details?
Twelve peoples all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Iranian troops had departed and left the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan to the sons of Ishmael. called to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Testament. Although were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, a merchant, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God's command, was revealed to them, and taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history. Because the command had come from On High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said "God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father, Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you."
Source http//quransmessage.com/articles/non-muslim%20sources%20FM3.htm
Excerpts from Robert G.Hoyland's book 'Seeing Islam as Others Saw It' A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early IslamThen God raised up against them the sons of Ishmael, as the sand on the sea shore, whose leader (mdabbrnā was Muhammad (mhmd). Neither walls nor gates, armour or shield, withstood them
Check page 189-190 https//goo.gl/BkG6X7
Having let their dispute run its course, after much fighting had taken place between them, the Westerners, whom they call the sons of ?Ammy, gained the victory, and one of their number, a man called M?awy ,
Check page 225 to know who Mr Muawiya was https//goo.gl/cz7y1L
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Hi everyone,
First I would like to point that I am not here to argue or troll but I am very intersted in finding the truth(so the real God or the lack of him) and Quran-only islam really draw my strong attention. However, I try to be as critical as possible and whenever I find something controversial I try to challange(after own research of course) people who know the topic and might be smarter than me, therefore are able to straighten my supposedly false views. I will be really pleased to find out in those discussion that I am mistaken.Good attitude, please continue to be as critical as possible to anything and anyone.
But the hardest part is To be critical towards yourselves and your own thought and opinion.So my problem for now is that claim of Quran-only muslims, that islam is is rather peaceful religion is false in my opinion.
DEFINITELY.
Because- islam is (supposedly) not a religion.
- There is no such thing as "peaceful religion", all religion was invented with the sole purpose of "power" and controlling the mind of the populace.
Quran itself provide lines promoting both peace and war. Therefore it's quite open to interpration. I've read peaceful interpretions and they are quite covincing. However, we cannot lie to ourselves and the best way to examine how to interpret those verses is looking at the practices of Muhammad and first muslims.
Muhammad is DEFINITELY NOT A Muslim or a member of religion called ISLAM.
Given to be recognized as such he need to proclaim the "Shahada".
And how did his Shahada sounds like?
"I testify that I AM the messenger of God"????By that criteria alone, it's clear that MUHAMMAD WAS AN INFIDEL / A KUFFAR, by Islam's standard.
The Religion of Islam is not a peaceful religion at all.
The history of the Religion of Islam is full of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture.
The Religion of Islam was invented with "Political objective" in mind.
And Muhammad himself was not and cannot be a member of the Religion of Islam.Salam / Peace
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Peace McKenna.
Having read your following quote
"Some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans. The Arabs ravaged the whole region."
"the Arabs climbed mountain of Mardin and killed many monks there in Kedar and Benth. There died the blessed man Simon, doorkeeper of Qedar, brother of Thomas the priest."
"The Arabs gained countrol of Mahoze and all the territory. They also came to Byzantine territory, plundering and ravaging the entire region of Syria. "
I have the following comments
1- One has to check and confirm that this information is correct and a true fact.
2- The described action was agressive and it goes against Qoran. If that is a true fact,then those who did this are not "True Muslims" as per Qoran.
3- Qoran for me sets the criteria of "True Islam". I do not find any instruction of aggression/oppression... in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
When people mention "Islam" and "muslims", do they really refer to the real meaning of Islam and the real meaning of muslims?
Do we even have many of muslims these days? I don't think so.
If I could speak honest, then based on my understanding, the "muslims" who accept/follow both (man-made hadiths & the Qur'an) are basically not true muslims, and they're actually rejectors/deniers.
I have that understanding, though it saddens me and it seems there's still part of me who reluctant to accept that understanding (it is hard), since I think that among those kind of people are my own relatives, and also a great number of self-proclaimed "muslims" nowadays.
I truly desire salvation for myself and for all of the people who are dear to me, but I consider that understanding is what I have if I apply honesty without being biased,
and I can't do much to change the situation around me. What I could do is pray that Allah will forgive me and those who are dear to me, and hope that our good deeds will be accepted by Allah.
It's impossible to adhere to both hadiths and the Qur'an, because they clash each other (they don't match), and if there are those who say that they can accept/follow both without problem... then their honesty is questionable.
I think we could use this method to know whether someone (adult people who could read) is actually a denier/rejector, or even a loser
Let them know the Qur'an. If they are not even interested to read the Qur'an (after it reaches them*), then they're ignorant, negligent, and they have zero (or lack of) interest to know about their own Creator and the truth, thus they are losers.
*It reminded me of the "muslims" who treat their Qur'an as bookshelf filler (display).
If they read it, but then they hate (& deny) all of it, then it's obvious that they're betrayers (toward their own Creator) and disbelievers, thus they are also losers.
If they do not submit to all of the messages in the Qur'an, then it's mean they reject, maybe there are people who reject all/many of it, or some parts of it, or maybe only reject few verses, but basically... they commit rejection, they don't surrender themselves entirely to the Creator.
For those who reject all of it, of course they're definitely losers, and for those who reject partially, they put themselves at the risk of become losers.
And there are more problems, such as there are people who "follow" the Qur'an - except for the verses which are not in line (contradict) with "popular pseudo science", I call such conduct as "hidden rejection".
Also, there are "deceitful manipulators", those who use the Qur'an for unrighteous purpose and eager to have followers/adorers. Such people are dangerous in my opinion, because in my view, they blur the line between right and wrong and try to lure people by boasting about miracle/supernatural thingies.
I dislike the people who lead their followers/victims to hell with "smiles and/or insincere kindness" (appear as if they're special holy people) + miracle splashes here and there - they are among of disgusting people on earth.
Peace.
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Peace Jafar.
You say ( Your quotes in green)
1- The Religion of Islam is not a peaceful religion at all.
It depends what Islam you mean. A)"Traditional Islam as per "Sunnin, Shiite,...etc" or B) "True Islam" as per Qoran.
I agree with you on A) ,but disagree with you on B).
2= The history of the Religion of Islam is full of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture.
All history can be a mixture of truth and "made up propaganda/ Victors point of view. It needs to be checked/evidenced.
Again, B)-True Islam" is against conquest,massacre,rape ,oppression,slavery and torture.
3-The Religion of Islam was invented with "Political objective" in mind.
I agree with you , most definitely with A)- Traditional Islam-.
4-And Muhammad himself was not and cannot be a member of the Religion of Islam.
100% agree with you on A). 100% disagree with you on B), according to my understanding of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Jafar.
You say ( Your quotes in green)
1- The Religion of Islam is not a peaceful religion at all.
It depends what Islam you mean. A)"Traditional Islam as per "Sunnin, Shiite,...etc" or B) "True Islam" as per Qoran.
It doesn't matter, it can be "Sunni Islam", "Shiite Islam", "Quran Only Islam", "True Islam", "The Truest Islam" etc..
The name doesn't matter..
Once it has become a RELIGION marked by introduction of one or more DOGMA which is to be enforced to be believed by it's sect member and others. Then it will not be peaceful at all..2= The history of the Religion of Islam is full of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture.
All history can be a mixture of truth and "made up propaganda/ Victors point of view. It needs to be checked/evidenced.
Again, B)-True Islam" is against conquest,massacre,rape ,oppression,slavery and torture.
Once "True Islam" become a religion, the cycle of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture shall soon started.
The word islam has a meaning and it's an attitude, a character (muslim) within the same domain as "honest", "happy", "peaceful" etc..
One can for example invented a religion called "HONEST", and declare those who are not "HONEST" were subjected for conversion, invasion, torture and their blood are allowable to be shed.
And I will agree if someone say
"Honest were never as honest as they claimed, infact they're a bunch of liars and hypocrites".Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar.
Brother, never mind what "one" declares.,if human.
What about when GOD ( Creator/Originator/cause of all this...) declares in His message? Or is there no message from GOD?Or is there no GOD?
When you say
One can for example invented a religion called "HONEST", and declare those who are not "HONEST" were subjected for conversion, invasion, torture and their blood are allowable to be shed.
My answer to that is simple,if he was "truly honest" ,he should/would not do such a thing,according to the message from the Creator!
It just means he is pretending to be "Honest" or misunderstanding what "Honest" is. It does not mean "Honest" does not exist or is not a "Deen"?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Jafar.
Brother, never mind what "one" declares.,if human.
What about when GOD ( Creator/Originator/cause of all this...) declares in His message? Or is there no message from GOD?Or is there no GOD?
What about it?
If this GOD is the true controller of this universe, He / It doesn't need to "declare or send message".
As what it will or plan shall be executed.. as it is the planner and also the executor.I'm sorry but I don't buy to the idea about a Deity who wrote a book and got pissed of if somebody did a bad review of his book and burned them to hell for all eternity.
What usually happened was an insane psychopathic ruler declare that his propaganda book / decrees is to be declared as HOLY across his kingdom/fiefdom/sultanate/caliphate whatever.. and those who dare to criticize and / or do a bad review and / or do not believe that his propaganda book / decrees are backed by a Deity and 100% true shall be put to DEATH.
As thus the insane ruler has created an insane religion based on his insane propaganda book / decrees which MUST be recognized as HOLY BOOK.
Salam / Peace
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"Kill the disbelievers until they repent and perform Salat"
But Islam is "peaceful" )