Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!

unknownuser

I am an atheist, not a Christian etc...

The Quran claims you should only invoke Allah ("YA Allah&quot, yet at the same time this "allah" endorses polytheist prophets who invoke the dead!

Salih invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed

Then they ham-strung the she camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying ?O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art a messenger (of Allah)!?

So the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes in the morning!

So Salih left them, saying ?O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!?

Notice 779, Salih is addressing the dead in the vocative "YA qawmi".

What in the world is this man Salih doing invoking and speaking to the dead, telling them he conveyed the message from Allah?

Polytheist prophet 2, Shuaib invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed

But the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes before the morning!

The men who reject Shu?aib became as if they had never been in the homes where they had flourished the men who rejected Shu?aib ? it was they who were ruined!

So Shu?aib left them, saying?O my people! I did indeed convey to you the messages for which I was sent by my Lord I gave you good counsel, but how shall I lament over a people who refuse to believe!?

Note again, "YA qawmi", why in the world is this man addressing the dead?

In conclusion, the Quran endorses polytheism, invoking the dead. No wonder certain Muslims around the world say "YA rasulallah, YA Ali, assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu etc..."

To Quran alone Muslims who reject the Sunni tashahhud "assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu", which is clear polytheism. Now you have evidence that this practice is in the Quran and endorsed.

yellowdog8272

I am an atheist, not a Christian etc...

Well that was quick

huruf

Man you are splitting hairs. Who is invoking the dead? Nobody is invoking the dead. Asking what from them?

"Polytheists prophets who invoke the dead..."

If you have to resort to these childish games to find fault with Qur'an you must be very desperate.

So if i address my mother I am also a polytheist.

Or if I address you I am also a polytheist? Why do you address us? YOu are polytheist.

Salaam

unknownuser

Hi huruf,

If you invoke your mother while she's alive, no your not a polytheist.

If you invoke her when she's not alive, then you are a polytheist.

The verses are in context of DEAD people, not while alive.

The person has to be able to hear you, not that you invoke your mother from your house while she might be in another country, this is polytheism.

good_logic

Peace Nonmushrik.

I am afraid ,again, it is a lack of understanding the context and the message.

Salih, Shuaib...etc are not addressing anybody. They know their people have gone,never to return.
They are making a statement of fact to serve as a lesson to you,me and future generations that they are not to blame, their people take all the blame for refusing to listen and obey!

If my father,who is no longer , disobeyed GOD and I say" Oh my father you have been warned,but did not listen". Am I invoking the dead?

Of course not, I am just making a point/a statement of fact to serve as a warning to other living fathers not to disobey GOD.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

unknownuser

Hi good logic, "YA" is the vocative in the quranic arabic.

Both shuaib and salih are standing in the presence of mass corpses, saying "YA qawmi"

Yes, you would be a polytheist saying YA to anyone who is not alive.

Do you believe shias are polytheist for example when they say YA ali?

good_logic

Peace Nonmushrik.

First, this is an assumption

Both shuaib and salih are standing in the presence of mass corpses, saying "YA qawmi"

You are assuming this, Qoran does not say they are standing in the presence of mass corpses!

Second, I have given you an example and I used "Ya" -Oh my father".... It is about my father ,not in the presence of my father who is no longer.

Salih,Shuaib... are speaking about their "Quawm" not in the presence of their "Quawm".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

Hi huruf,

If you invoke your mother while she's alive, no your not a polytheist.

If you invoke her when she's not alive, then you are a polytheist.

The verses are in context of DEAD people, not while alive.

The person has to be able to hear you, not that you invoke your mother from your house while she might be in another country, this is polytheism.

?How can you say that naybody who addresses anything or anybody who is not alive is a polytheist? You say that not God says that. You invent your own rules and assumptions. You are not speaking on behalf of God. You are a mushrik who takes his words as if they were God's words.

Salam

unknownuser

Hi good logic.

Im not assuming anything, I'm reading the verses in context.

They both invoke/address the dead AFTER the nation is destroyed, there would have been at least 1 million dead corpses lying around this crumbled city.

I'm not saying there were that many, it may have only been 1 thousand.

Your example I understood, if you invoke somebody who's not alive with the vocative YA, this is polytheism.

unknownuser

Hi huruf,

It seems you agree with me at least that invoking the dead is explicit in the Quran.

We disagree about whether this is polytheism.

huruf

No, I do not agree to such a thing. And the "invoking" part is idiotic. You are addressing something or someone not invoking. You do invent a lot.

Salaam

unknownuser

Hi huruf,

The "YA" in the Arabic text is in the vocative which means "invoking" not addressing.

(7794)
yqawmi
"O my people! VOC ? prefixed vocative particle ya
N ? accusative masculine noun
PRON ? 1st person singular possessive pronoun

vocative
vktv/
GRAMMAR
adjective
adjective vocative
1.
relating to or denoting a case of nouns, pronouns, and adjectives in Latin and other languages, used in addressing or invoking a person or thing.
noun
noun vocative; plural noun vocatives
1.
a word in the vocative case.
the vocative case.
noun the vocative

I apologise if I misunderstood your belief. These verses are bad theological and doctrinal teachings.

unknownuser

Hi huruf,

I apologise, it seems addressing and invoking are the same definition. Either-way, addressing/invoking is the same thing.

The context in these passages refers specifically to addressing/invoking the dead.

huruf

Obivously that it is saddressing the dead is your own conclusion.

Good logic told you it is not. I do trust good logic and her logic.

You on the other hand seem to be playing some kind of wits game to show us how silly the Qur?n is. Upm till now the only sillyness I can see is in what you write.

Wits games are not the same as loyalty to truth and uprightness. So try being truthful and upright con dealing with serious things, so that you can be taken seriously.

Salaam

good_logic

Peace Huruf.

I am making the following statement

" Ya Nonmushrik,Qoran needs to be pondered to be understood better".

This statement will help others ,who read this thread,to make sure the context is studied to be understood properly.

Whether Nonmushrik is alive and sees/reads this or dead ( I know he is not really dead,just as example),it does not really matter.

This is a statement of fact that serves as a lesson.

So "Ya" can be used for both to "address" or to talk "about".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

unknownuser

Hi huruf.

I've presented the evidence of what these passages speak of in context, I've also presented the evidence/implication of this word "ya".

huruf

What a habit in some people of calling evidence their own opinions. That is not evidence, that is just opinions. But you nonshirk call many things that they are not, so no surprise there.

hawk99