No God Exists: Why Should I Be Good to humans?
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Religions being the culprit of everything is such a commonplace... As if religions were something outside human beings, some sort of etereal existence that fromthe nothingness manages to make men do that they the etereal thing named religion decides, because religions are also beings though etereal capable to decide and to decide instead of people.
Also ideas are not responsible for anything at all, but persons who old them or who hate them or who given them cult are the ones who are bad or good. As long as there is people there will be bad and good, because it is them who get the ideas and use them for this or that.
Salaam
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It is the level of empathy that matters. Sympathy or not is one thing, but one needs empathy.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Religions being the culprit of everything is such a commonplace... As if religions were something outside human beings, some sort of etereal existence that fromthe nothingness manages to make men do that they the etereal thing named religion decides, because religions are also beings though etereal capable to decide and to decide instead of people.
Atheism is pretty much a religion.
God is like the cushion for the survival of the humans.
Take him out of the picture and you will find dominating humans taking over your mind and body. There will be no way to argue about why certain innocent person does not deserve to die.
It is the level of empathy that matters. Sympathy or not is one thing, but one needs empathy.
Not possible for certain groups
Group 1 Those who can't think independently and decide. Must stick to what the society says.
Group 2 Those who believe everything shown on tv is correct.
Group 3 Those who believe we know everything.
Group 4 Those who think rationality is the key to all the possibilities.Do you mean we are all atheists, or simply God does not exist?
No mention of God anymore. No one is allowed to practice his religion.
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No mention of God anymore. No one is allowed to practice his religion.
Salaam,
Ok
God is just a weird excuse to do bad things.
The wicked will always find justifications for their doings.
People kill in name of freedom, democracy, love, etc etc etc
So I think it would not change anything, only a shift in motivation.Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
Ok
God is just a weird excuse to do bad things.
The wicked will always find justifications for their doings.
People kill in name of freedom, democracy, love, etc etc etc
So I think it would not change anything, only a shift in motivation.Salaam,
BenderI thank God that you understand it. That's what I have been saying all those years on this forum. People will kill in the name of whatever their ideology is. But you have to see who instigates people to do bad things in the name of God. If they are like this now just think about what would happen if God is banned from this world.
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Ah, found a great journal article at emerald. It is similar to what MOF said here when we first started discussing the topic. But I'll still paste the most important parts of the article to show how it is true in the real world.
Evil is not a word used frequently among accounting academics. As with most social scientists, we shy away from such metaphysical and emotionally charged terminology. The rules of the game are rational discourse, reasoned exploration, and instrumentally legitimized actions. These rules aim to divorce sentiment and emotion from intellect and to substitute impartial evidence for nuanced moral codes and spiritual values. However, if we conceive of evil as that which deprives innocent people of their humanity and if we believe such behavior to be inherent in the human condition, then evil constitutes an elemental force of social systems (Hilberg, 1980; Katz, 1993; Adams and Balfour, 1998; Billstein et al., 2000) that can be ignored only at our peril. Yet, it is the instrumentally rational and legitimized roles and behaviors shrouded in hierarchical structures, technology, and expertise that enable us to distance ourselves from our emotions and mask the presence and potential of evil.
The ?rational? practices of modernity predominately follow the logic of instrumental rationality (e.g. Weber, 1958, 1979; Habermas, 1984, 1987) as conventionally conceptualized. Instrumental rationality refers to the legitimization of action by appealing to the efficacy of the means employed in achieving the specified end without the need to appraise the legitimacy of the end (Jary and Jary, 1991). The conventional interpretation of rationality implies a neutral orientation possessing both constructive and destructive potential. The realization of this potential depends on parameters (i.e. individual morality or ideological zeal) distinct from, and independent of, the application of rational processes. Further, the realization of this potential cannot be separated from the social roles and institutional structures roles and structures constituted, and legitimated, by the logic of modernity. These institutional roles and structures obviate individual responsibility (Kelman and Hamilton, 1989), and equate the efficient achievement of organizationally specified goals with the public interest (Bauman, 1989).
Machines, professionals, and administrative hierarchies represent the physical, intellectual, and organizational manifestations of instrumental rationality. These manifestations define and construct the organizational context and over time overwhelm individual morality
One is rarely confronted with a clear, ?up or down? decision on an ethical issue; rather a series of small, usually ambiguous choices are made, and the weight of commitment and of habit drives out morality. The skids are further greased if the situation is defined or presented as technical, or calling for expert judgment, or is legitimized by organizational authority. It becomes an even easier choice if the immoral choice has itself been redefined, through a moral inversion, as the ?good? or ?right? thing to do (Adams and Balfour, 1998, p. 25).Organizational violence refers to physical or emotional harm done to individuals as a result of actions carried out on behalf of the organization and is the expression of administrative evil. We argue that the large scale forms of organizational violence ? such as the ?normalization? of nuclear war through budgetary practices or the facilitation of the Holocaust through the use of ?counting machines? ? differ only in magnitude from the daily acts of organizational violence, legitimized by rational economic analysis.
Modernity has deified instrumental rationality as an enabling logic. The application of this logic narrows the conception of ethics, professionalism, and politics and is operationalized through machines, experts/professionals, and administrative hierarchies Machines are the physical manifestations; professions are the intellectual manifestations; and administrative hierarchies are the organizational manifestations. ?When linked to bureaucracy and organization, the result is an unintentional tendency toward dehumanization and the elevation of technical progress and processes over human values and dignity? (Adams and Balfour, 1998, p. xxv).
Title "The rules are no game", Accounting, Auditing & Accountability
Source
http//dx.doi.org/10.1108/09513570510620475 -
Religions being the culprit of everything is such a commonplace... As if religions were something outside human beings, some sort of etereal existence that fromthe nothingness manages to make men do that they the etereal thing named religion decides, because religions are also beings though etereal capable to decide and to decide instead of people.
PRIDE and ARROGANCE is the root of all evil.
The characteristic of "Uber Alles", an urge for supremacy upon others.. and makes ME or WE feel superior.It can be bound or mapped to any form of identity (ie I or ME).. or social group identity (ie WE) such as
- Religion (Muslim / Islam, Sunnis, Shiites, Quranist, Catholic, Orthodox etc..)
- Race / Ethnicity (Jews, Arabs, Aryan, White, Black, Han, Indian, Hutu, Tutsi etc..)
- Nationality (Germans, Japanese, American, Swedish, Turkish, Russian etc..)
- Ideology (Communist, Capitalist, Secularist, God Believers, Atheist etc..)
Having said that, Religion is BAD due to it's dogmatic nature..
I rephrase that.. any ideology which is based on DOGMA is BAD.
Dogma is a conception or an idea which MUST NOT and CANNOT be questioned..
And those who dare to do so must be silenced / killed due to blasphemy...Scientific methodology is generally GOOD due to it's NON DOGMATIC nature..
You don't believe in round earth? Fine... you don't believe in evolution? Fine...
You questioned the truthfulness of Newton's equation? Please.. feel free to step forward and prove otherwise..Back to the main topic..
Good soul are just good soul, regardless of their opinion / belief.
Bad soul are just bad soul, regardless of their opinion / belief.We don't need "God" or "Religion" to differentiate between good or evil..
https//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/09/1a/79/091a790774e237d0e5e32619cc1efd34.jpg
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Depends on how you define "God" Jafar and what the phenomenon really is. God's multiplied "self" structure means you basically are interconnected with the phenomenon called Rabb in Arabic and Aramaic. What makes a human advanced and way excelled in functionality is due to the "Superior Spirit" albeit many waste that gift utterly because they choose to follow their primate body. God stems out from your 'self' (called nafs in Arabic and Aramaic) so in the image of God you develop your Spirit... in the Father's footsteps as Jesus may have had put it, and the body is simply a huge stumbling block since it is not the real you and will entice you to things with its satan (instinct) and generate a blinding cloud if you give in to it.
The focus is not on any God but your realization in that God although God is a very poor descriptive term as it does seem more Pagan than describing its function. Rabb is a developing phenomenon and it is its image you follow and that stems out from your 'self'. We are all part of Rabb and it is not something which would be jealous for not being worshiped exclusively as you are it although a share. The Rabb is in you and you are in it, not separate.
And everything a person ever has to focus on in life is to 'come alive' rather than be dead and part of the world's "automation" (or instinct or "programming", there are many ways of defining it). All you would hope for is not to be dead. Even apparently alive you may be dead, lifeless in spirit. See the point in when Jesus slightly sarcastically says "Let the dead bury their dead" or is angry when his disciple is sad because he is going to "die".
Be safe
Amenuel -
PRIDE and ARROGANCE is the root of all evil.
The characteristic of "Uber Alles", an urge for supremacy upon others.. and makes ME or WE feel superior.It can be bound or mapped to any form of identity (ie I or ME).. or social group identity (ie WE) such as
- Religion (Muslim / Islam, Sunnis, Shiites, Quranist, Catholic, Orthodox etc..)
- Race / Ethnicity (Jews, Arabs, Aryan, White, Black, Han, Indian, Hutu, Tutsi etc..)
- Nationality (Germans, Japanese, American, Swedish, Turkish, Russian etc..)
- Ideology (Communist, Capitalist, Secularist, God Believers, Atheist etc..)
Having said that, Religion is BAD due to it's dogmatic nature..
I rephrase that.. any ideology which is based on DOGMA is BAD.
Dogma is a conception or an idea which MUST NOT and CANNOT be questioned..
And those who dare to do so must be silenced / killed due to blasphemy...Scientific methodology is generally GOOD due to it's NON DOGMATIC nature..
You don't believe in round earth? Fine... you don't believe in evolution? Fine...
You questioned the truthfulness of Newton's equation? Please.. feel free to step forward and prove otherwise..Back to the main topic..
Good soul are just good soul, regardless of their opinion / belief.
Bad soul are just bad soul, regardless of their opinion / belief.We don't need "God" or "Religion" to differentiate between good or evil..
https//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/09/1a/79/091a790774e237d0e5e32619cc1efd34.jpg
Peace,
Could you spare at least this thread from trolling?Dostoyevsky said, as I have read If God oes not exist then everything is allowed.
Salaam
True '(
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Peace,
Could you spare at least this thread from trolling?Where did I troll?
Belief in God / RELIGION has no correlation with being good or evil..
God Believer and Unbeliever has the same potential to be good or evil..Being Good or Evil has a POSITIVE correlation with the degree of EGO and PRIDE .
THe higher the degree of EGO and PRIDE the more evil one might become
THe lesser the degree of EGO and PRIDE the more good one might becomeThat's my my point..
Even the statement of "Why Should I Be Good to humans?" in the subject carries the notion of EGO ("I"/"ME" within..
Dostoyevsky said, as I have read If God oes not exist then everything is allowed.
I said if God doesn't exist then everything doesn't exist.
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Where did I troll?
Belief in God / RELIGION has no correlation with being good or evil..
God Believer and Unbeliever has the same potential to be good or evil..Did you read what I posted earlier than that post of yours? It isn't about belief in God, but how some foxes will use no belief in God for their own gain. Consider the following
Average atheist It is unethical that you want retired senior citizens to be euthanized just because they are not contributing to the economy.
Politician atheist But poll shows citizens support us on that and you have no way to prove it is unethical. You are no expert. We have people employed to do so and they said to save the resources for 90% it is okay to sacrifice the 10%.In my country, the humanists (majority are atheist) promote assisted suicide, but in between they don't forget to scare people with "we have too many baby boomers retiring and that would be a pressure on our healthcare resources".
Being Good or Evil has a POSITIVE correlation with the degree of EGO and PRIDE .
THe higher the degree of EGO and PRIDE the more evil one might become
THe lesser the degree of EGO and PRIDE the more good one might becomeBeing evil is not always about pride and ego. It can also be about maximizing profit. However, religious groups are a breath of fresh air when all the people are busy finding rationality in hate and doubt.
Meanwhile, faith-based groups have also stepped up their advocacy efforts for refugees. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops released a statement expressing distress over calls by elected officials to halt the resettlement program."These refugees are fleeing terror themselves ? violence like we have witnessed in Paris," said the statement by Bishop Eusebio Elizondo, chairman of the conference's committee on migration. "Instead of using this tragedy to scapegoat all refugees, I call upon our public officials to work together to end the Syrian conflict peacefully so the close to 4 million Syrian refugees can return to their country and rebuild their homes. Until that goal is achieved, we must work with the world community to provide safe haven to vulnerable and deserving refugees who are simply attempting to survive."
Source http//www.politico.com/story/2015/11/refugees-christians-215991
Even the statement of "Why Should I Be Good to humans?" in the subject carries the notion of EGO ("I"/"ME" within..
And there are people who have no problem with that line. They are known as narcissists or bullies.
I said if God doesn't exist then everything doesn't exist.
That's how we think. Some others don't.
Having said that, Religion is BAD due to it's dogmatic nature..
It aint going anywhere. Atheism is just another religion which has
Mullahs
Halal and haram (nonsense reasons to justify them)
Us vs them
Traditions
Blind shallow followers and even extremist kind.
And above all, multiple gods in the form of humans.
Bonus I don't want to believe in that study because it clashes with my religious view..I mean atheism.Scientific methodology is generally GOOD due to it's NON DOGMATIC nature..
But it is promoted in a dogmatic way or should I say based on whims and desire...
People like Dawkins aggressively promote evolution and have a lot to say about science, but would shut their eyes to severe physics violation of 9/11 because it weakens their agenda. You think it won't go worse in atheist world where materialism is the only key to understanding a human's worth?You questioned the truthfulness of Newton's equation? Please.. feel free to step forward and prove otherwise..
Yeah, that's why people who want to tell the truth keep dying and plagiarists like Einstein get away.
https//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/09/1a/79/091a790774e237d0e5e32619cc1efd34.jpg
Try saying that to weapon industry and pharmaceutical companies.Additional
The League of Militant Atheists aided the Soviet government in killing clergy and committed believers. The League also made it a priority to remove religious icons from the homes of believers. Under the slogan, "the Storming of Heaven," the League of Militant Atheists pressed for "resolute action against religious peasants" leading to the mass arrest and exile of many believers, especially village priests. By 1940, "over 100 bishops, tens of thousands of Orthodox clergy, and thousands of monks and lay believers had been killed or had died in Soviet prisons and the Gulag."https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists -
Atheism or non-spiritualism is not the way to go. You can see that a multitude of people are victims to their own selves and that is because they basically believe in nothing, i.e. no purpose except enjoy living while it lasts. That is okay but I find it tragic for them.
However I could agree that people do not need the traditional (hedonistic) view of God with primitive features. It is the spiritual depth one is after and purpose of living. The most relevant reason is because you should grow your Spirit's consciousness into completion. And that you can probably understand no matter if your religion is with the typical physical separate deity or abstractly symbiotic in all living things (like the Force in Star Wars). The growing of your self is default and for that it takes your consciousness is enhanced.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Atheism or non-spiritualism is not the way to go. You can see that a multitude of people are victims to their own selves and that is because they basically believe in nothing, i.e. no purpose except enjoy living while it lasts. That is okay but I find it tragic for them.
Thanks to heavy marketing for that. I did come across a documentary few months ago according to which only some years ago, majority of the Americans had no desire for materialism. But then came the time when cigarette companies thought they weren't getting many customers for their cigarettes. They were angry that people were satisfied with basic needs. So the new project of aggressive marketing began which taught "you must desire, want, live in the moment, etc". It worked quite nicely. Cigarettes once again are frowned upon (in CA, it is a big taboo), but the parasite of desire has managed to ruin the other areas of the people's lives. Truth is that it is not easy for all to not surrender to what the media says. Brainwashing begins from a very tender age.
However I could agree that people do not need the traditional (hedonistic) view of God with primitive features. It is the spiritual depth one is after and purpose of living. The most relevant reason is because you should grow your Spirit's consciousness into completion. And that you can probably understand no matter if your religion is with the typical physical separate deity or abstractly symbiotic in all living things (like the Force in Star Wars). The growing of your self is default and for that it takes your consciousness is enhanced.
I agree despite the fact that I appreciate all the good things the traditional religions do for people. I might not be a Christian, but I do know many have got out of drug addiction by getting help from Christian organizations. I might not be a sunni or shia, but I do know their organizations do everything to prevent a funeral from turning into a business. I might not be a Jewish, but I do know synagogue do feed the temple goers for free. Are we gonna get things like this in atheist world? I don't think so. Even now when an atheist suffers from depression he is told by fellow atheists to see a psychologist. I see similar recommendation coming from the nonreligious ones. But is it truly difficult to beat such illness especially if it is not heredity based? You know about my loss. I didn't have to go to a psychologist for it. Neither did other family members. But my relative who lost her husband in 2007 is still taking the antidepressant drug because her head now acts weird without it.
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Even now when an atheist suffers from depression he is told by fellow atheists to see a psychologist. I see similar recommendation coming from the nonreligious ones. But is it truly difficult to beat such illness especially if it is not heredity based? You know about my loss. I didn't have to go to a psychologist for it. Neither did other family members. But my relative who lost her husband in 2007 is still taking the antidepressant drug because her head now acts weird without it.
Peace reel,
Speaking as someone who has recovered from anxiety and severe depression, I don't believe that a person's religion, or lack thereof, will make them more or less prone to severe depression. I also don't think that a person's religion necessarily determines how they handle recovery. Everyone is different, and depression is a horrible and complex illness. Often depression is not just caused by one event (although it can be), but many traumatic events, problems, and/or negative thoughts in one's life.
To answer your question about the difficulty of beating depression, I'm going to share my story. When I was 15, I developed depression that lasted for roughly a year and a half. So I will recount my experiences as a depressed teenager. I'll say now that I don't speak for everyone with depression.
I wouldn't wish the months of hopelessness and loneliness I felt on anyone. It was a truly terrible and frankly terrifying experience. I remember vividly on the first day that I felt a literal shift in my brain. My brain became chemically imbalanced. I isolated myself. I lost the few friends I had. I was scared and angry with the world. I felt trapped within. I had no desire to do anything. I didn't care about life. I hated everything about who I was. I still have scars on my body. I wouldn't let my true feelings show. I just wanted to die in my misery. My family believed I was fine because I was always smiling around them. Behind closed doors, I was sobbing. The hardest part is that although you're at your weakest point, you won't allow anyone else to see how you weak you are. Therefore you automatically block yourself off from help that could be received from yourself or other people.
When I finally broke down and the truth came out, I was prescribed by my doctor and parents to see a therapist and was given antidepressants. Neither worked for me. I hated that everyone knew how weak I was. Telling my parents was my biggest regret. I was stubborn. I didn't want to get better. I had no freedom anymore. I went to therapy and I took my pills. But my mind and my brain resisted both. I simply didn't want to be happy. I didn't know who I was if I wasn't absolutely miserable. My depression wasn't just an illness - it was my identity. (I could speculate your relative's depression stems not just from the loss of her husband but indirectly the loss of her own identity as well, if she did/does not know who she was/is without him).
It took me months of self reflection, talking to people who really cared about me, and rediscovering myself through an online persona that I got better. I had to rebuild my confidence and fix the extremely negative image of myself that months of depression had engraved in my mind. I had to force myself to talk to people more. I had to open my eyes to how beautiful and positive the world could be. In order to overcome my depression I didn't just have to solve one problem, but I had to solve many. That's part of what makes depression so hard - It magnifies any problems you face, and because of how worthless one feels, it's hard to find the motivation to do anything, let alone solve your problems. It was a long and gradual process, and it wasn't easy. I did not consider myself religious then, so religion had no influence in my recovery.
In my opinion, depression is an illness that one can only be cured from if they truly want to change and get better. Otherwise, they will continue being depressed and going through the endless misery cycle.
I realize that I can never again be the person I was before my depression. But that's okay. The person I have become is much better than the person I left behind.
Every person handles their depression differently. My mother has been on antidepressants for the last 20 years, and she takes them faithfully because they help her. They balance the chemicals in her brain that she needs to feel better.
I think antidepressants are meant mainly as the first boost to get over depression, a temporary solution, and eventually a person should be taken off them. Unfortunately for many people this isn't the case. I think they see them as a permanent fix so they don't have to change anything in their lives to make them happier. It's easier to take a pill every day than to make a drastic and lasting change in one's life, especially if someone is not in a situation where they can easily make a change. (An example of this would be someone whose main cause of depression is their job, but they are unable to quit their job because they rely on every paycheck to pay their bills.)
While I think after all these years that my mother could learn to do without her antidepressants, I try not to judge her for taking them. That's what works for her.
I feel the issue with society today is that many get caught up in the negative sides of life. They don't stop to realize that happiness is a choice, and emotions will only hurt as long as they allow them to. If someone is unhappy, they have the power to do something about it. I was able to realize this gradually over time, but some may need the help of a therapist to help them come to the conclusions that I did. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We're social beings and sometimes we have to lean on others for support during times of need. The most important thing to me is that people who are depressed are trying to get help, no matter how they're doing it, and I can only hope that they truly want to receive it.
I apologize for the long post. ^^
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To answer your question about the difficulty of beating depression, I'm going to share my story. When I was 15, I developed depression that lasted for roughly a year and a half. So I will recount my experiences as a depressed teenager. I'll say now that I don't speak for everyone with depression.
I wouldn't wish the months of hopelessness and loneliness I felt on anyone. It was a truly terrible and frankly terrifying experience. I remember vividly on the first day that I felt a literal shift in my brain. My brain became chemically imbalanced. I isolated myself. I lost the few friends I had. I was scared and angry with the world. I felt trapped within. I had no desire to do anything. I didn't care about life. I hated everything about who I was. I still have scars on my body. I wouldn't let my true feelings show. I just wanted to die in my misery. My family believed I was fine because I was always smiling around them. Behind closed doors, I was sobbing. The hardest part is that although you're at your weakest point, you won't allow anyone else to see how you weak you are. Therefore you automatically block yourself off from help that could be received from yourself or other people.
Very sorry to hear that. I had depression starting from age 13 to 19. I attempted to even kill myself. Later I came to know it is normal for teens to go through it. Its pretty universal. Reasons always vary though.
My mother has been on antidepressants for the last 20 years, and she takes them faithfully because they help her. They balance the chemicals in her brain that she needs to feel better.
My mom used to take for her heart problem. It screwed her up in the mind though. Took a long time for us to realize that.
I feel the issue with society today is that many get caught up in the negative sides of life. They don't stop to realize that happiness is a choice, and emotions will only hurt as long as they allow them to. If someone is unhappy, they have the power to do something about it. I was able to realize this gradually over time, but some may need the help of a therapist to help them come to the conclusions that I did. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We're social beings and sometimes we have to lean on others for support during times of need. The most important thing to me is that people who are depressed are trying to get help, no matter how they're doing it, and I can only hope that they truly want to receive it.
I apologize for the long post. ^^
Nah, don't apologize. Here is the thing, when an adult is literally depressed about nothing it is a problem and there can be many ways to eliminate it just as you have shown in your post. But this is not the issue. What I have observed about atheists is that they think too highly of professional "experts" just as sectarians think too highly of clerics. Depression is a big money making business. Once a person is hooked to an expert, it might not be that easy to leave him. Psychiatrists know how to get repeated visits.
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impression is that the people who evetually do get out when I look back it seems like a miracle. Like if no sun rising next day was ever expected, because there was no sun or sunrising any ore and then one day rose. I may say it is because of this or that, and I suppose everything counts, may be also depression and others things simply have their run and when they have made their run simply end, or that somebody effective for whatever reason, even a professional, did a wise thing at a given moment... I still feel like a wonder...
I think in fact that professionals, at least some of them, are perfectly conscious that they are fighting a tremendous, very powerful enemy and they do not kid themselves that they are a match for it, but still they try at their end as best they can and sometimes they touch a key which does the trick...
Congratulations, Comrox, for getting out of that black hole. I am sure you example might help other people in similarly hopless condition.
Salaam