Dr. Jonathan Brown discusses Quran-alone Muslims
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Peace ths and everyone else,
You are right when you say that Salat is a timed obligation. Since Salat is a "timed obligation" according to the Quran, there seems to be no doubt that Salat is a ritual. But is Salat a "Ritual prayer" or is it another type of ritual? I think that this is what we should be focusing on.
The notion that Salat is a ritual does not necessarily mean that it is a Ritual prayer IMO. Because "Ritual prayer" is not the only type of ritual that exists. There are other types of rituals as well.
If the Quranic Salat is completely different than the Salat of traditional islam (Sunni/Shia), does this suggest that the Sunni/Shia Salat is a non-quranic ritual? And if it is a non-quranic ritual, does this suggest that it is invented by humans? And if it is invented by Humans, does this suggest that we do not need to do it? Does God want us to do a ritual that God has not included in the Quran? Does islam need non-quranic or extra-quranic teachings in order to be complete and detailed? Please ponder on these questions.
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Peace JavaLatte,
I agree. I think Allah guides me to accept that Salat is ritual.
I think that basically, SALAT IS NOT PRAYER, Salat is solemn/earnest ritual,
however, prayer/s (from the Qur'an) could be included/performed in Salat,
and this daily ritual is to maintain and refresh our connection with Allah.
That's my understanding, currently.
bravo bravo bravo
Peace
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
You are right when you say that Salat is a timed obligation. Since Salat is a "timed obligation" according to the Quran, there seems to be no doubt that Salat is a ritual. But is Salat a "Ritual prayer" or is it another type of ritual? I think that this is what we should be focusing on.
The notion that Salat is a ritual does not necessarily mean that it is a Ritual prayer IMO. Because "Ritual prayer" is not the only type of ritual that exists. There are other types of rituals as well.
If the Quranic Salat is completely different than the Salat of traditional islam (Sunni/Shia), does this suggest that the Sunni/Shia Salat is a non-quranic ritual? And if it is a non-quranic ritual, does this suggest that it is invented by humans? And if it is invented by Humans, does this suggest that we do not need to do it? Does God want us to do a ritual that God has not included in the Quran? Does islam need non-quranuc or extra-quranic teachings in order to be complete and detailed? Please ponder on these questions.
bravo bravo bravo
Peace
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I think that basically, SALAT IS NOT PRAYER, Salat is solemn/earnest ritual,
however, prayer/s (from the Qur'an) could be included/performed in Salat,
and this daily ritual is to maintain and refresh our connection with Allah.
That's my understanding, currently.
Indeed. I can't deny those things.
*nod
You might be right )
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Peace taro Hiroshi
The notion that Salat is a ritual does not necessarily mean that it is a Ritual prayer IMO. Because "Ritual prayer" is not the only type of ritual that exists. There are other types of rituals as well.
So what kind of ritual should it then be?
What about the bowing (2.43), prostating (53.62), direction(2.144), washing(5.6), thanksgiving (31.14), timing(4.103), and the posibility for making it together (2.43)
I can only see it as prayer. Or what do you call it. An other ritual preformed 3 - 5 times a day? -
Several times I have said other than prayer, assalat might be comunion. Comunion does nto have to be the eating of a corpse, but may be understoo in the larger meaning of union with God and with those who also unite with God. We take it usually that it is through prayer that we do that, but reduce it to prayer may be too narrow. Silence may be a way of comunion if we empty ourselves.
Salaam
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Peace Niels Jacob,
I think you raise some good points.
In my view, before one can understand what Salat is, one has to understand what Salat is not. If ones beliefs about Salat are based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs are true IMO. But if ones beliefs about Salat are not based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs seem to be baseless. And then I think it would be reasonable to reevaluate ones beliefs. In my view, the best way to find the truth about Salat is by using a logical/rational approach to Salat.
I am planning to write a post about Salat in the future. The post will tackle the objections you raised and some other objections as well. I will write the post about Salat in due time.
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Peace huruf,
Several times I have said other than prayer, assalat might be comunion. Comunion does nto have to be the eating of a corpse, but may be understoo in the larger meaning of union with God and with those who also unite with God. We take it usually that it is through prayer that we do that, but reduce it to prayer may be too narrow. Silence may be a way of comunion if we empty ourselves.
Wow! Amazing words!
bravo bravo bravo
Peace
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Peace NielsJacob,
So what kind of ritual should it then be?
What about the bowing (2.43), prostating (53.62), direction(2.144), washing(5.6), thanksgiving (31.14), timing(4.103), and the posibility for making it together (2.43)
I can only see it as prayer. Or what do you call it. An other ritual preformed 3 - 5 times a day?There is no direction in salat. 2144 has no SALAT in its context for miles. It has nothing to do with salat but is a mental focal point/target/purpose for believers wherever they might be (the truth from our lord).
243 is not about bowing during salat. There is zakat also mentioned in between ruku and salat. So do you PHYSICALLY BOW DURING ZAKAT ALSO? All it means is be humble with those who are humble. One can be humble during salat and zakat and at all times.
There is no verse that indicates ruku is only part of salat.
If I tell you
Eat healthy and exercise and focus with those who focus.
Would that mean that focus is something physical you do (like focusing your vision) while eating and exercising or would it mean a mental focus at all times?
5362 has no SALAT in context. It is talking about being obedient to allah. The only place where SUJUD seems to be directly part of salat is 4102.
243 is also not about possibility of making salat together. 629 and 4102 are about the group salat.
4103 has nothing to do with timing of salat. The salat timing verses are 11114 and 1778.
3114 is not about thanksgiving during salat. It is about thanksgiving in general. Please see 17111 which is relevant to what we are supposed to say during salat.
For prayer al-quran uses the word "du3a" and not salat. Salat can include prayer but it is much more than just prayer. It is "communion" or "intimate communication/connection" with allah.
"Ritual" is a bad word for it. More appropriate words would be "routine" or "practice".
Eating 3 times a day, or exercising once a day, are they "rituals", or are they "routines" or "practices"?
Peace
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Peace Taro Hiroshi
Peace Niels Jacob,
I think you raise some good points.
In my view, before one can understand what Salat is, one has to understand what Salat is not. If ones beliefs about Salat are based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs are true IMO. But if ones beliefs about Salat are not based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs seem to be baseless. And then I think it would be reasonable to reevaluate ones beliefs. In my view, the best way to find the truth about Salat is by using a logical/rational approach to Salat.
I am planning to write a post about Salat in the future. The post will tackle the objections you raised and some other objections as well. I will write the post about Salat in due time.
Inshallah
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Peace Thuthseeker 11
I just picked one random refrence to each claim. But you also know that there are a lot more to each one.
Showing that these things are througout the entire Quran.
My point was What else than prayer should cover all these elements. wich in my view all together make the prayers
.Or said in an other way How can you do all these things without making prayers.
Prayers is the easiest way to follow these instructions. ) -
Peace NielsJacob,
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If you reference verses about salat they should be about salat and not totally irrelevant to salat and then associate them with salat!
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The word used for "prayer" in al-quran is "du3a" not "salat". It makes no sense to use "du3a" for prayer and then to use salat also for prayer.
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You have to look at all the salat of the believers verses, and "prayer" has to make sense in every single verse.
How does prayer ORDER YOU how to perform some actions in your life?
1187 They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!"
- Salat includes praising, glorifying and magnifying the lord, not just request for help or thanksgiving. Prayer is not praising, glorifying and magnifying the lord. Praying is asking for something you or someone else don't have, or solution to a problem you or someone else are having, or solemnly requesting for help etc.
Salat is not just prayer but much more than just prayer. "Prayer" doesn't fit all occurrences of salat. How do you explain "prayer" ORDERING YOU to do some action? Huh? (1187)
Peace
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Peace Truthseeker 11
Then see prayer in a more greater perspectiv. And not just reduced to asking for something. Then salat would be that "prayer"
I think that if you see it in that view also you could read 11.87 as when you are doing your prayer (salat) then you aint violating Gods command.
Wish is my major allegation -
Peace NielsJacob,
But the prayer still does not ORDER YOU to do something. It's just that you are not violating commandments. Prayer never ORDERS YOU to do something.
You are acknowledging that salat is more than just prayer but still calling it "prayer" for which al-quran uses the word "du3a". So you are disregarding the word "du3a" for prayer.
Salat = prayer + something more
Peace
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Peace truthseeker11
Peace NielsJacob,
But the prayer still does not ORDER YOU to do something. It's just that you are not violating commandments. Prayer never ORDERS YOU to do something.
You are acknowledging that salat is more than just prayer but still calling it "prayer" for which al-quran uses the word "du3a". So you are disregarding the word "du3a" for prayer.
Salat = prayer + something more
Peace
Yes I agree with you. But the reason I call it prayer is because I cant find any better word.
And then again I find it wrong to say that Salat isn?t prayer.
Would it be better to call it your timed contact prayer ritual?
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Peace truthseekers,
You are nitpicking on a semantic issue. The word "prayer" in the English language isn't reserved solely for asking something from God. It encompasses also glorification, praising, giving thanks, etc. And in fact, prayer is more fitting to what you are describing than any other English word, and du3aa2 is 'supplication' in English.
And as to whether your salah orders you to do something, again you are taking this too literally. Does someone's communion order them to do something? Does a 'contact routine' order you to do something? Does your 'communion routine practice' or 'habit' order you to do something?
No, they do not. The verse is simply saying 'does what you pray to / your belief system call for this or that behaviour'.
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Dr. Jonathan Brown from Georgetown University discusses the Quran-alone movement here
https//youtu.be/kUDHzdiYgws?t=17m13s
He makes the standard argument that "the Quran cannot be read on its own. Because otherwise you wouldn't know how to pray 5 times a day."
He also claims that there was no Quran-alone movement in pre-modern Islam.
While I think he makes a logical contradiction here by claiming that you need the Prophet's teachings to follow the Quran, this forum is actually a good example about the fact that we cannot get any significant number of people to agree on how to pray according to the Quran alone.
had my ins and out with this guys saying the quran can not be read alone... can the dictionary be read alone? ALLAH will judge them for the blasphemies they utter, the quran tells you to pray five times a day????? it doesn't say pray it says rememberance, this includes just sitting and thinking about ALLAH (god) and the meditation of believing ones like monks who meditate... as this jack-off what is "rememberance" and how is that different from prayer??? ask him what is "celebrating" and how is that different from praying.....
praying is begging, asking i.e. "i pray you give me ...."
stay away from this people they are blasphemers and their crime is against ALLAH, the quran is the word of ALLAH!
He's already placed it in a book he does not need you to speak for him.
these are people who reject faith.
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Peace ths,
I think that we agree on more than we disagree on in regards to Salat and other quranic topics. Just like you, I am not in favor of rejecting tradition, just because it is tradition. But I don't consider myself a traditionist. I don't consider myself a modernist neither. To me, the truth is the aim/objective. As a truthseeker, I will accept any teaching that is not incompatible with the teachings of the Quran. That being said, I don't think that the God expects us to follow non-quranic or extra-quranic teachings in regards to laws/commandments, principles and rituals in islam. In my view, the only laws/commandments, principles and rituals we must follow are those that are in the Quran.
I have learned new things about the teachings of the Quran by reading your posts.
Your objective/critical/detailed approach to the Quran is needed here.
Keep up the good work.
Peace and best regards,
Taro.
