Answering Difficult Questions From Atheists
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Can you please link me to the study? I want to have a look.
I just realized that that was not the only study done. When looking for that specific one I came across this one http//www.today.com/news/return-life-how-some-children-have-memories-reincarnation-t8986 Do note that i am not trying to convince you to believe in reincarnation for I myself is not fully convinced despite having first hand experience.
Having said that, I must bring your focus back to my point of contention. If you think that we as mere mortals with such limited powers become responsible to stop such evil, how come you let your God go off the hook when it comes to being responsible? Clearly, your God could stop every damn rape with no effort at all. That was my point.
I actually didn?t. Several times I yelled at him for something bad happened to me. I am sure many others had that moment at least once in their lifetime. Mine came to a halt after I turned to Quran. I still do question certain things like how Rothschild family for centuries has got away with their crimes. But this is not exactly a reason for me to ever leave my faith. Since I follow the Quran I do know that this is merely a test ground. I know it sounds silly. But coincidently, even our own worldly learning method and reward are based on this also. As a teacher would you do your students? homework and exams? Some schools go overboard with it like during our graduate level comprehensive exam, students and their capstone class professors are restricted from contacting each other. The rule is ?we don?t know each other?. But really, how would the world look like if God kept intervening to save us from the bad all the time? This is a question for all.
Unless there is something wrong with your brain, you should have the ability to empathize. You should prefer life over death, health over sickness, pleasure over suffering. The mirror neurons in your brain helps you put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand the consequences of your actions to their lives.
Empathy is based on conditioning. You can remove it from humans. Example soldiers. They are programmed to kill and civilians are programmed to accept it as patriotic despite the fact that the war may not be taking place in their country.
We are social creatures after all. Not only us, almost all creatures that evolved under the selection pressure of being in groups possesses the ability to get along by reciprocating.
But what works in japan may not work in US unless heavy marketing is utilized. We have to accept our differences.
Imagine taking a knife and shoving it into the eye socket of a baby while using a drilling machine to brutalize the anus of the baby.
Did that thought disturb you? Was there a discomfort involved in your head when you were visualizing doing that? Or did it feel just like being asked to read a newspaper? If it felt horrible, then you, like 99.99% of human beings have a built in sense for this. That built in sense is what guides you. It is not perfect but works. If it felt just as normal as reading a newspaper, please see a psychiatrist and a neurosurgeon ASAP!That?s very hostel and deep web. Unfortunately, people do pay as high as $800 to watch such brutal things and some even came up with a series called Daisy?s destruction in which children were raped and torn into pieces. There is also a weird thing called snuff party. So not all among us are that normal.
Now, do a religious demographic study for the prison population of those same countries. If your line of reasoning is correct, then you should expect to find that the prison populations of all these countries are overwhelmingly disbelievers in God.
Guess what? Your research will surprise you. Atheists do not make up the majority of the inmates in any country's prisons (unless of course that country already has atheists as the majority of their population). This alone should conclusively prove to you that the mere lack of belief in Gods and Goddesses does not tell you ANYTHING about how moral or immoral a person IS.
I think you have answered your question. There are less atheists in most countries. Also it is commonly seen that the richest do not believe in God because they have the security from their wealth. Third, when in distress people can turn into a believer from disbeliever with ?Oh no, jail? Plz plz, god save me, plz, I won?t do it again, here I believe in you now, plz plz, plz, save me?
Lastly, I cannot talk for all countries, but I do know that in American jails, ?promotion? of religions is quite common.
Religious services are provided for inmates of all denominations. The RJDCF employs a Catholic Priest, a Protestant Chaplain, a Muslim Imam, a Native American Spiritual Leader, and a Jewish Rabbi. Additionally, nearly (430) volunteers provide volunteer-led religious and other programs such as KAIROS, Alternatives to Violence/Hands of Peace, the Urban Ministries Institute (TUMI), and many other faith-based programs. Additionally, California Prison Industries Authority (CALPIA) employs inmates at the RJDCF in its laundry, bakery, and casual shoe factory
Source http//www.cdcr.ca.gov/Facilities_Locator/RJD.html
Same can be found in UK http//www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/offenders/psipso/psi-2011/psi-51-2011-faith-pastoralcare.docApart from this, I sometimes wonder what the world will be like if religions are banned and all decide that God truly doesn't exist. Thins like the ones below scare the hell out of me.
But even freedom might be harmless and have its place in the
State economy without injury to the well-being of the peoples if
it rested upon the foundation of faith in God, upon the
brotherhood of humanity, unconnected with the conception of
equality, which is negatived by the very laws of creation, for
they have established subordination. With such a faith as this a
people might be governed by a wardship of parishes, and would
walk contentedly and humbly under the guiding hand of its
spiritual pastor submitting to the dispositions of God upon
earth. This is the reason why it is indespensable for us to
undermine all faith, to tear of minds out of the GOYIM the very
principle of Godhead and the spirit, and to put in its place
arithmetical calculations and material needsWhen we come into our kingdom it will be undesirable for us
that there should exist any other religion than ours of the One
God with whom our destiny is bound up by our position as the
Chosen People and through whom our same destiny is united with
the destinies of the world. We must therefore sweep away all
other forms of belief. If this gives birth to the atheists whom
we see to-day, it will not, being only a transitional stage,
interfere with our views, but will serve as a warning for those
generations which will hearken to our preaching of the religion
of Moses, that, by its stable and thoroughly elaborated system
has brought all the peoples of the world into subjection to us.The epic case
The goyim are not guided by practical use of
unprejudiced historical observation, but by theoretical routine
without any critical regard for consequent results. We need not,
therefore, take any account of them -- let them amuse themselves
until the hour strikes, or live on hopes of new forms of
enterprising pastime, or on the memories of all they have
enjoyed. For them let that play the principal part which we have
persuaded them to accept as the dictates of science (theory). It
is with this object in view that we are constantly, by means of
our press, arousing a blind confidence in these theories. The
intellectuals of the goyim will puff themselves up with their
knowledge and without any logical verification of them will put
into effect all the information available from science, which our
agentur specialists have cunningly pieced together for the
purpose of educating their minds in the direction we want.
Do not suppose for a moment that these statements are empty
words think carefully of the successes we arranged for
Darwinism, Marxism, Nietzscheism. To us Jews, at any rate, it
should be plain to see what a disintegrating importance these
directives have had upon the minds of the goyim.From my extremely favorite book found here http//ddickerson.igc.org/The_Protocols_of_the_Learned_Elders_of_Zion.pdf
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Look buddy i'm not an atheist, stepping up for them or anything but just because they don't believe in a god that doesn't mean they don't have morality, even though a person believes in a God they too could rape and do robbery also if they don't have a senses of morality.
Please stop with the stereotype that all atheist are pure evil, eat their babies 24/7, or does a killing spree on a daily basis, these stereotypes are the reason that gave religious people a bad impression.
As a long one single human has a tiny wee of ideology in his head he will fight or kill for it, no matter how righteous or not he is.
O you who acknowledge, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. Do not spy on one another, nor shall you gossip one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Compassionate.
ok you are not atheist,,, but you are blind,,, because you didn't check the brackets,,, or if u checked it then I think,,, you didn't understand it ,,, same in hard questions of math some students didn't understand the full meanings of brackets,,,,
ok I m going to explain for you,,, the brackets of my words,,,, the one who believe in Allah ,,, its mean he believes what Allah command him or not command him to do,,,, that makes him a believer,,,
for the person who rape or robe somebody claiming himself muslim ,,, is muslim name ,,, infront of Allah he is hypocrate and wicked,,, and Allah never loves wicked.... hope the understand the brackets... -
,,,, come on this topic,, now ,, do u think that rape is wrong,,, if you think its wrong tell me one logical reason ,,, how it wrong or bad for the rapist,,,,
It's a violation of the raped person's human rights. That makes it wrong.
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah
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This verse refers to the Omniscience of God, His knowledge of all things,
hidden or apparent. It then goes further and says that God is aware of
everything, including what is smaller or bigger than the atom. Thus the verse
clearly shows that it is possible for something smaller than the atom to exist, a
fact discovered only recently by modern science.and focus one thing this verse is for the atheist(non believers) for us we already know and believe on unseen... you are accepting the presence of electron but denying the creator of electron who weired,,,
that's how these signs separate truth from lie,,,now take one advise join schooling again read some science history,,, geography,,, human rights,, mathematics... when your level of education is so advance then touch quran... find more question and mistakes,,, I m here to solve ,,, dnt worry I believe what you not believe...
a little knowledge of quran makes you atheist,,,
but depth knowledge of quran make you believer....and by the way dnt forget to give me the logical answer of the questions that I asked,,,
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Peace Student Of Allah.
I get your point. I also can clearly see from your posts that
1-- You do not "really" know who you are. or Why you are here as a human.
2 Who GOD is . For what purpose this earth and this universe were created.
Are you aware of the "Heavenly feud" that took place before this creation?
Are you aware of the covenant you took with your creator before being brought through the reproduction system as a human to this life?
The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views .
It is a battle ground of "Good v Evil". The battle must be waged with casualties.fair or unfair...
Out of Mercy ,GOD is offering you this second chance.
There are those who are born dead. There are those whose lives are cut short in their infancy. There are those who are oppressed. There are those who are raped. there are those who....GOD knows about them. I trust and have confidence in my Creator that He knows what is happening. He says our predetermined life is what we get . He has also given us clear instructions how to seek His help and protection in this life. Yes those who make the decision to believe HIM and in HIM will get His help and protection along with their siblings.
How long is 100 years, 50 years, 20 or ten years zero years.... GOD has the ultimate knowledge and ,in HIS message he is saying to you,me and everyone to believe and do good in this life to benefit in this life and in the real life that follows (Infinity) . But you can also choose to do bad/evil/....
Think about it! You have already, like the rest of us humans, "doubted" GOD is the only authority in His kingdom/creations and wanted to make your own decision /choice . GOD is giving you this last chance to make the right decision. He has promised to let you,me and everyone else decide.
But of course you make your own choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@ student of Allah
in other threads I provided you whatever you ask regarding science and quran,,, but make sure this books is not books of science ,,, this is a message to whole humanity... so read this message completely please,, then you will find all of your answers... forget about the scientific theory of creation,,, se the story of creation in quran ,,, that will give you one of your answers " why God create human beings"..
the angels ask the same question... but when Allah replied he just said "i know what you don't know". when he created adam and there is an intelligence test which adam get successful....then angels replied same,,,
yes lord,,, we don't know what you know...our knowledge is limited....coming to your second question?
Allah creates us becoz ,, human being is in the best of Allahz creation... on the basis of choice,,, he chose a life/path for himself... at that time he choose to go to janna,,, that why whole humanity accept that challenge... again Allah is saying human is fool... so its not Allahz fault... by this we get this point ,, for the greed of janna we forget the consequences if we will go against... that's what atheist dnt like lol,,, but its not their fault its the natural human fault...now you will aske me why he make humans ,,, when already there are angels,,, yeh angels are there but they were not the best creation,,,
tell me who is better a creation having free will or a creation having no freewill,,,third thing and imp thing test... why test is so difficult
when Allah said to angels to prostrate adam,,, everybody did it except satan,,,
and he ask a permission from allah until the judgement day that I will prove you this creation is worthless..
but what allah say,, u r permitted but my real servants you cant trick them or harm them whatsoever you will do ,,,and the one who follows you I will fill all of them with hell....here one thing to be noted ,,, if we obey God worship God ,,, listen to God,, its not benefiting Allah,,, its benefiting us... for the purpose we accept the challlange ,,, if you say billions time Allah is great... its doesn't matter.... Allah is already great.... so you need allah,,, for achieving the goal which is focused for a submitter life to get reward hereafter...
our test are difficult because the enemy is chasing us by thoughts ,,, that are coming nowa days in you...so beaware he is your enemy and he is successful right there in your matter... think about it.... I know you still believe,,, there is something may be a force that governs the law of nature....
you dnt want to accept it,, its other matter,,, if I say you the cloth you are wearing come into existence by its own,,, the cup of ur tea ,,your house ,come into existence by its own,,,will you gona believe me,,, no you will say he is weired,,,
so how the sun is there,,,,, how the moon stars plantes,,, galaxies,,, are there,,,, with perfect calculation,,,
look into yourself ,,, what do you think about the structure of your body,,, why dnt ur eye lashes become big like ur hairs,,,, why every body part is very perfected,,,,
do you have the answers of these questions,,,
do any modern science biology have answers oof these questions,,,,
no becooz,.... to Allah we belong,,, And to Allah we return.....peace -
Shalom Aleikhem reel,
I just realized that that was not the only study done. When looking for that specific one I came across this one http//www.today.com/news/return-life-how-some-children-have-memories-reincarnation-t8986 Do note that i am not trying to convince you to believe in reincarnation for I myself is not fully convinced despite having first hand experience.
that's not the paper I was looking for. I guess I will have to manually find the exact paper the article talks about. Once I get my hands on that, I will investigate and come back and post on this forum about my thoughts. Can't say anything about that without knowing much at the moment.
I actually didn?t. Several times I yelled at him for something bad happened to me. I am sure many others had that moment at least once in their lifetime. Mine came to a halt after I turned to Quran. I still do question certain things like how Rothschild family for centuries has got away with their crimes. But this is not exactly a reason for me to ever leave my faith. Since I follow the Quran I do know that this is merely a test ground. I know it sounds silly. But coincidently, even our own worldly learning method and reward are based on this also. As a teacher would you do your students? homework and exams? Some schools go overboard with it like during our graduate level comprehensive exam, students and their capstone class professors are restricted from contacting each other. The rule is ?we don?t know each other?. But really, how would the world look like if God kept intervening to save us from the bad all the time? This is a question for all.
That was what I believed when I was a Muslim. However, upon realizing where I went wrong, I had to stop believing in that. Let me share with you what caused the change in my belief. I realized that I was comparing apple to oranges with that teacher-student example. For example, let's say I was teaching kids how to solve a calculus problem and testing them. I'd never do their homeworks or exams for them. HOWEVER, if I was teaching them ways of avoiding rape or murder, it would be a totally different thing. I wouldn't test their skills in a setting where they'd actually get raped and murdered. Especially if I had ALL POWER to stop the rapist and murderer. See the difference now?
After realizing that crucial difference, I took it a step further. I questioned the very idea of testing. That is because, there is no point in an ALL KNOWING being testing anything. It just makes no sense. Imagine you being the trainer of the US Navy seals. Would you ever shoot the trainees point blank in their heads to test if that will harm them? You wouldn't! However, you'd test if they can learn the skills that you are there to train them with. Right? Why is there that difference? What makes the first test a no-no and a second one an okay one? The trouble with doing tests like the first one is that you already know the consequences with near about 100% certainty. However, in case of the second one, DUE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE GAP, you must rely on testing systems to ensure that you are giving a pass grade to someone who actually is capable of pulling off what you have to teach.
Now please realize that the God you believe in is ALL KNOWING and therefore can also see the future. The implications of which is that irrespective of how much free-will he bestows upon you, he ALREADY KNEW even before creating ANYTHING if you'd pass or fail. So why bother with any testing at all? That just adds to suffering! He could have simply created the nice ones and put them in heaven. No suffering, no drama. But no, knowing in advance who'd fail the trial and who will pass, he did go forward with creating everything anyway. He then comically acts all shocked and appalled by the behaviors of the ones that fail and impressed by the behaviors of the ones that passes the test. Then he goes on to put the passed people in heaven and the failures in some kind of a torture chamber. How is that reasonable? I know I can talk a lot but I feel like I must include another example of just how insane it is
I am an infinitely creative and capable computer programmer who creates artificial intelligence software that are conscious in a way and can feel pain/pleasure. Before I write my next 100 programs, I already know that 50 of them will malfunction while the other 50 will work just as I love it. I have the plan to put all the nice ones into the HEAVEN folder. I realize that I could just directly write the nice softwares into the heaven folder and be done with that. But no! I don't do that. First I create 100 programs knowing well that the bad ones will make the good ones suffer too. Then after a set date, I move the good ones to the HEAVEN folder and create a torture folder called HELL for the remaining malfunctioning programs!
If anyone did that, people would not only call such a person crazy, but would ask them to seek immediate psychological help. So I guess you will be able to at least understand why I decided to stop saying to myself that "this life is just a test and a teacher shouldn't help student's with their homeworks/test".
And to answer your question about how the world would look if God decided to intervene and stop evil, let me tell you that the world would have been really beautiful. It would look like a merciful, loving, just, kind, reasonable creator created it.
Empathy is based on conditioning. You can remove it from humans. Example soldiers. They are programmed to kill and civilians are programmed to accept it as patriotic despite the fact that the war may not be taking place in their country.
It isn't entirely contingent on conditioning. Yes, it can be nurtured. I agree. That is where reason comes in. There are psychopaths who stay away from psychopathic behaviors. Why? Because despite them not having a good working ability to FEEL empathy, they can tell WHY THEY SHOULD behave a certain way. We can all see the value in working towards a world where we all reciprocate nicely and minimize collisions. That doesn't even take involvement of emotions.
But what works in japan may not work in US unless heavy marketing is utilized. We have to accept our differences.
True. However, the things I talked about are pretty much universal. It seems like morality exists on a spectrum and clearly culture influences our view. That does not mean that we should do away with it. Just like the topic of health. You can disagree all you want about which particular state of your physical being is the best way to be, that doesn't mean that we should get rid of the notion of health! Why do that for morality?
I mean, this is something that people don't seem to put much thought into before talking about it. Just imagine, there does exist people who say that morbid obesity is not a health problem, all the class A drugs are not a health problem, all kinds of denialists who don't agree with the bulk of humanity on what is healthy and what is not. Did that make us throw away the very notion of "health" and be like "Oh! A person can just say for their own selfish benefit that shooting heroin is healthy for them according to their standards. Therefore lets get rid of the idea of health and physical well-being altogether!". If we don't say ridiculous things like that when it comes to health, why say similar things when the discussion of morality is involved? There is no particular reason except for someone to try to make it sound like without God there would be no morality. Which is clearly refuted by the evidence of reality where atheists do not form the majority of the criminals in this world.
That?s very hostel and deep web. Unfortunately, people do pay as high as $800 to watch such brutal things and some even came up with a series called Daisy?s destruction in which children were raped and torn into pieces. There is also a weird thing called snuff party. So not all among us are that normal.
Yes. Same is true for people who'd be fine with shooting heroin all day long. Did that make us reject the concept of health and physical well-being? NO! Therefore we shouldn't try to reject the concept of morality just because there can be a tiny minority of us who'd do evil.
I think you have answered your question. There are less atheists in most countries. Also it is commonly seen that the richest do not believe in God because they have the security from their wealth. Third, when in distress people can turn into a believer from disbeliever with ?Oh no, jail? Plz plz, god save me, plz, I won?t do it again, here I believe in you now, plz plz, plz, save me?
You misunderstood my test. I wasn't asking you based on on the absolute number of criminals. Let's put it this way
Say the world population is 7 billion. There are 1.5 billion Muslims, 2 billion Christians, 0.5 billion Buddhists, 1 billion Hindus, 2 billion Jews. Now let's say we created a prison for all the bad people in the world and we find the following
Prison population demographics
80% are Buddhists
5 % are Muslims
10% are Christians
3 % are Hindus
2 % are JewsWhat does that data tell us? It tells us that despite the Buddhists being the minority in the world, they are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Despite Buddhist being just 7% of the world's population, they represent a giant 80% of the world's prison population. From that you could start talking about the correlation between being Buddhist and having a high chance of being a criminal.
That is the type of study I wanted you to do. Atheists being minority won't count.
In the history of humans, nobody has ever been able to show a correlation like that for atheists. I know that even if you won't admit it, you already know it. If a crime takes place anywhere on this world, even the most crazy governments like Saudis won't first go after the atheists randomly. That is because virtually everyone already knows that the likelihood of one doing a bad action is not contingent on whether they believe that the universe had a creator or not.
It all depends on our individual "values" and "ideals". Not whether we believe there is a God or not. Where would you want to spend the rest of your life, in France (almost 50% atheists) or ISIS controlled territory(almost 100% believers in God)? The answer to that should tell you why atheism doesn't make people evil on it's own.
And to be honest, even as a Muslim, I was always terrified of other sectarian Muslims and NEVER EVER afraid that an atheist will harm me.
Lastly, I cannot talk for all countries, but I do know that in American jails, ?promotion? of religions is quite common.
Are you suggesting in some weird way that all the people who commit crimes, or at least a considerable number of them, are atheists. Then they go into prison and start believing in a God and then adopts a religion? I hope not.
Religious services are provided for inmates of all denominations. The RJDCF employs a Catholic Priest, a Protestant Chaplain, a Muslim Imam, a Native American Spiritual Leader, and a Jewish Rabbi. Additionally, nearly (430) volunteers provide volunteer-led religious and other programs such as KAIROS, Alternatives to Violence/Hands of Peace, the Urban Ministries Institute (TUMI), and many other faith-based programs. Additionally, California Prison Industries Authority (CALPIA) employs inmates at the RJDCF in its laundry, bakery, and casual shoe factory
Source http//www.cdcr.ca.gov/Facilities_Locator/RJD.html
Same can be found in UK http//www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/offenders/psipso/psi-2011/psi-51-2011-faith-pastoralcare.docWhat does this tell you? WHY do you think these services are provided? As far as I know, these services are provided because the inmates going in want them. When was the last time you have seen an atheist asking for a Mullah or Catholic priest? They have these options available for people so that they may carry on whatever religious stuff they must while being in prison.
Apart from this, I sometimes wonder what the world will be like if religions are banned and all decide that God truly doesn't exist. Thins like the ones below scare the hell out of me.
I would fight until my last breath with all my might to stop that from happening. Religions shouldn't be banned just because they are religions. It'd go against my fundamental human rights. I wouldn't want to live in a world where I am being forced and told what to believe in or not believe in. Freedom of thoughts, beliefs, expression,speech are vital in my world view.
This doesn't mean that I want religion to be there. I just don't want to force people through legislation and sword to stop believing. That sounds to me like a seriously diabolic thing to do. I consider a lot of religious beliefs to be detrimental to progress and human well-being. Therefore I want to eradicate such poisonous beliefs. My way of dealing with them is through dialogues such as this one, debates, education, etc. The only time I'd advocate government intervention is times like when people are being harmed, especially physically. Other than that, my war against crazy and dangerous belief systems is solely reliant on intellectual means.
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
SOA, welcome.
Not many answers one will get if one takes god out of the system in functioning.
God should be seen as totality, I know, not many here will accept my view or has similar views, but Quran's god also claims to be the same.
4126 (Asad) For, unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and, indeed, God encompasses everything.
When a bad thing happens before our eyes, most of us will fight for it or at least talk against it? its the way God interferes, morality is ingrained in every ones mind, it need not be taught, it looks to be a part of our survival tools and as a theist I believe its the totality(AL-lah) that's taking care that it reached me.
So if one believe that the grand totality will guide him, then he is a believer. not any specific books or person or religion.
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Shalom Aleikhem good logic,
I get your point. I also can clearly see from your posts that
1-- You do not "really" know who you are. or Why you are here as a human.
Not sure what to say or what to make of that kind of questioning. I know who I am. I am a fellow homosapien. I am not that much interested in the "really" bit. The reason isn't intellectual laziness. The reason is because of the fact that I understand subjectivity. I can mean the world to someone and nothing to someone else. I can be just an animal from one perspective, yet someone really important from another. I can be just matter from a perspective or a talented poet from another. It all depends on the observer. So I cannot comment on questions that presupposes the existence of some sort of ultimate reality I guess. The very concept of an ultimate reality doesn't make any sense to me as I know that reality is but the function of what is perceived by an observer.
But yes, we do have common grounds that we often refer to as "reality". Another name for it would be universe/existence I suppose.
Why am I here as a human? How about you have a look at this
http//johnbokma.com/mexit/2006/07/04/dry-riverbed.jpg
Now if you take me to that place and ask me WHY is that place there as a dry river bed, what am I to say? All I can say is that it looks like flowing water curved it's path through the soil and eroded it. For reasons unknown to me, that river system is no longer functional. Therefore it's a dry river bed. That is why the dry river bed is there, because it can't exactly walk away.
Same goes for the question about "why I am here as a human". I am a human because I exist due to causal factors such as biological reproduction between other human beings. Or are you asking a different question? Perhaps you are invoking some kind of a purpose? To ask me that kind of a question, you must first prove to me that there is a purpose beyond the physical forces giving rise to chemistry and therefore ultimately giving rise to biological creatures that brought me forth into this world. Without first proving that, it's like asking me "What did Jesus plan for you?". First you must demonstrate that Jesus does sit there planning stuff for people. Without that, we cannot even begin to have a discussion on that.
2 Who GOD is . For what purpose this earth and this universe were created.
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I swear I have never met God. I don't even know what that is. Various religions and their followers have proposed countless models of God to me though. Some have said that existence is god. In that case I am a believer in existence therefore a believer in God. Others have suggested that God is some sort of a creative being that originated the universe or existence. For that I have no evidence. Therefore I don't bother investigating into his nature even before I know if he exists or not. It'd be like wasting my life investigating the aerodynamic properties of the left wing of a fairy when I don't even have evidence that fairies exist in the first place. What kind of diet would a fairy love? I have answer to that question and don't care because I don't even have evidence for fairies existing in the first place. I'll dig deeper once the basic premise has been proven. That is to say, their existence is proven to me.
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As I've said before, I cannot just assume "purpose" and start from there. I can discuss the causal factors that led to the current state of this planet and the universe. I cannot tell you anything beyond that for that would be outside my knowledge.
Are you aware of the "Heavenly feud" that took place before this creation?
Humor (you may ignore) A heavenly feud before the heavens were created? Really? P
No, I have no knowledge of that. From our combined effort as a species over thousands of years, we have managed to work our way back to a singularity. We know that the singularity expanded and condensed into the universe we reside in. However, we have no clue about what was before that singularity or if the temporal word "before" even means anything when time itself was not existent. When I cannot tell you anything about even that bit, how can you expect me to even know about a feud between who knows what beyond that singularity?
Are you aware of the covenant you took with your creator before being brought through the reproduction system as a human to this life?
No clue. My parents created me. But I doubt you are referring to that. You are probably referring to some sort of a contract between me and the God for which I still have no evidence. If I was aware of a contract, would I not be already a believer in it's existence?
I am not the least bit interested in discussing things like that without first having a reason to believe that the being exists in the first place. Why signed what contract and where and how are all irrelevant before we establish that AT LEAST the parties involved all exist!
The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views .
I realize that you believe that. However, please try to understand the difference between your belief and what is factually accurate and actually true. You could be right, so could the other theists who claim totally different things, then again all of you could be wrong too! How am I to tell the difference? Evidence. Without you proving your words to me, there is no point in going into expositions.
It is a battle ground of "Good v Evil". The battle must be waged with casualties.fair or unfair...
Same as above.
Out of Mercy ,GOD is offering you this second chance.
Nah, not really. Even if I bought into your beliefs, I could still demonstrate to you that he isn't offering anybody anything. An all knowing and future seeing being already knew even before creating anything how things would end. So he created Christopher Hitchens knowing that he'd die as an atheist, didn't he? He knew that no matter what the does, he will finally die as an atheist. So free will goes out the window. Free will doesn't count for anything when the creator and judge already knew the outcome. Due to having ALL POWER, your could have created a universe where Christopher Hitchens dies as a good muslim. But out of the infinite possibilities that could have been, your God CHOSE to make the universe where the story of Hitchens ends as a dead atheist. So all these talk about offers, pledges, free-will are jokes for one who is willing to take a step back and analyse further.
If you are still not convinced, how about I offer you this example I created conscious robots with free will. Before creating them, due to my flawless and superior intellect, I KNEW FOR A CERTAINTY that they'd go use their free will to kill your family. When the robots kill your family, wouldn't you put the blame partly on me? Yes, the robots did it out of their free will. Yes I told them not to kill anyone. Yet, you'd know that I KNEW FOR A FACT that they'd never listen to me and WOULD CERTAINLY slaughter your family. I know you'd take me to court if you could prove that I knowingly created those robots who I knew would kill your family. You'd argue the same as I am argue here "The free wills of the robots get negated by the fact that the maker already knew that they WILL kill my parents". If you ask me, I'd put more blame on the creator of those robots than the robots. The creator could have made infinite number of other robots who wouldn't ever do that. But HE CHOSE to create the ones that will surely slaughter your family.
The point of me going into such detail is just so that you get an idea of where I am coming from.
There are those who are born dead. There are those whose lives are cut short in their infancy. There are those who are oppressed. There are those who are raped. there are those who....GOD knows about them. I trust and have confidence in my Creator that He knows what is happening. He says our predetermined life is what we get . He has also given us clear instructions how to seek His help and protection in this life. Yes those who make the decision to believe HIM and in HIM will get His help and protection along with their siblings.
See, that's exactly what I was talking about. It's like the writer of a story being mad at someone in the story and despising them to the point that the writer chooses to torture that person for doing exactly what he wrote for that person to do.
I know that the most common defense to that is that "No! He didn't write that bit. He gave us free will and we write ourselves.". To which my response is, please scroll up and read the thing I said about creating robots with free will who you know in advance will be evil. You will be able to tell how the writer is the one to blame more than what the supposedly beings with "free-will" did.
How long is 100 years, 50 years, 20 or ten years zero years.... GOD has the ultimate knowledge and ,in HIS message he is saying to you,me and everyone to believe and do good in this life to benefit in this life and in the real life that follows (Infinity) . But you can also choose to do bad/evil/....
Think about it! You have already, like the rest of us humans, "doubted" GOD is the only authority in His kingdom/creations and wanted to make your own decision /choice . GOD is giving you this last chance to make the right decision. He has promised to let you,me and everyone else decide.
This sounds very dark. Can you please confirm what you mean by "last chance"? Do you mean that this life is the only chance I will get? or do you mean that if I don't accept God right now right here, you will kill me and I will have no chance left?
I never got that pissed of mullah vibe from you, so I just want to be sure.
Peace
-------------- Student of Allah -
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Peace Student of Allah.
Now we are getting somewhere. we are at opposing ends We are" two parallel lines".
So unless one of us changes direction/course or both of us change direction/course, we will carry on this " battle".
I appreciate and welcome your "continuous search". I also welcome your request for evidence. During the course of our conversation I may share with you "my evidence" but I must warn you that it may not satisfy your request .. Why?
Because like I said before if we travel at two parallel lines ,what you want as evidence and what I have for evidence are never going to "meet", "your evidence" will be different to mine
For me ,as a believer ,the evidence you might be looking for as an Atheist will not be shown to you until the "promised day"
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Those who do not expect to meet us said, "If only the angels could come down to us, or we could see our Lord (we would then believe)!" Indeed, they have committed a gross arrogance, and have produced a gross blasphemy.
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The day they see the angels( or GOD), it will not be good news for the guilty; they will say, "Now, we are irreversibly confined."Yes ,you might mention "Scientific facts" ...etc. This world with its laws and Scientific facts will not "show GOD" or other dimensions no matter how advanced or ...We become.
Let me confirm for you that I follow and have a lot of interest in Science. I also want to "prove all things" if possible.Notice I said "believer" I mean I have other evidence like "Mathematics" in the universe and the message. GOD s signature on HIS creations.I will gladly share that part with you.
For now I am certain and satisfied with my evidence .
But I am reading and listening to your take on things.
So far we remain "Opposites"?You have asked,quote
This sounds very dark. Can you please confirm what you mean by "last chance"? Do you mean that this life is the only chance I will get? or do you mean that if I don't accept God right now right here, you will kill me and I will have no chance left?I understand from GOD s message that this life is our "last chance" to redeem ourselves back to GOD s kingdom. I was talking in general about "us humans" not you in particular. I am also one of you.That is "my understanding.
As far as I am concerned you are "safe and free " to do as you please, I am no one s advocate or judge.Looking forward to continue this conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
ok you are not atheist,,, but you are blind,,, because you didn't check the brackets,,, or if u checked it then I think,,, you didn't understand it ,,, same in hard questions of math some students didn't understand the full meanings of brackets,,,,
ok I m going to explain for you,,, the brackets of my words,,,, the one who believe in Allah ,,, its mean he believes what Allah command him or not command him to do,,,, that makes him a believer,,,
for the person who rape or robe somebody claiming himself muslim ,,, is muslim name ,,, infront of Allah he is hypocrate and wicked,,, and Allah never loves wicked.... hope the understand the brackets...God...can you stop with the commas, the point is that explain your logic behind atheist has 100% chance of rape and robbery, Because to me that is the most absurd logic i've ever heard...
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that's not the paper I was looking for. I guess I will have to manually find the exact paper the article talks about. Once I get my hands on that, I will investigate and come back and post on this forum about my thoughts. Can't say anything about that without knowing much at the moment.
I should have bookmarked the study.
That was what I believed when I was a Muslim. However, upon realizing where I went wrong, I had to stop believing in that. Let me share with you what caused the change in my belief. I realized that I was comparing apple to oranges with that teacher-student example. For example, let's say I was teaching kids how to solve a calculus problem and testing them. I'd never do their homeworks or exams for them. HOWEVER, if I was teaching them ways of avoiding rape or murder, it would be a totally different thing. I wouldn't test their skills in a setting where they'd actually get raped and murdered. Especially if I had ALL POWER to stop the rapist and murderer. See the difference now?
Actually, a program has been started to teach men to be not rapist. The all powerful one has given us the book that we can use to teach people not to murder and rape.
After realizing that crucial difference, I took it a step further. I questioned the very idea of testing. That is because, there is no point in an ALL KNOWING being testing anything. It just makes no sense. Imagine you being the trainer of the US Navy seals. Would you ever shoot the trainees point blank in their heads to test if that will harm them? You wouldn't! However, you'd test if they can learn the skills that you are there to train them with. Right? Why is there that difference? What makes the first test a no-no and a second one an okay one? The trouble with doing tests like the first one is that you already know the consequences with near about 100% certainty. However, in case of the second one, DUE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE GAP, you must rely on testing systems to ensure that you are giving a pass grade to someone who actually is capable of pulling off what you have to teach.
He does tell us that we will be tested.
Now please realize that the God you believe in is ALL KNOWING and therefore can also see the future. The implications of which is that irrespective of how much free-will he bestows upon you, he ALREADY KNEW even before creating ANYTHING if you'd pass or fail. So why bother with any testing at all? That just adds to suffering! He could have simply created the nice ones and put them in heaven. No suffering, no drama. But no, knowing in advance who'd fail the trial and who will pass, he did go forward with creating everything anyway. He then comically acts all shocked and appalled by the behaviors of the ones that fail and impressed by the behaviors of the ones that passes the test. Then he goes on to put the passed people in heaven and the failures in some kind of a torture chamber. How is that reasonable? I know I can talk a lot but I feel like I must include another example of just how insane it is
I am an infinitely creative and capable computer programmer who creates artificial intelligence software that are conscious in a way and can feel pain/pleasure. Before I write my next 100 programs, I already know that 50 of them will malfunction while the other 50 will work just as I love it. I have the plan to put all the nice ones into the HEAVEN folder. I realize that I could just directly write the nice softwares into the heaven folder and be done with that. But no! I don't do that. First I create 100 programs knowing well that the bad ones will make the good ones suffer too. Then after a set date, I move the good ones to the HEAVEN folder and create a torture folder called HELL for the remaining malfunctioning programs!
The problem here is that the software is not made up of the computer programmer. Hence, it is not the analogy that can be used to understand God.
He isn't a separate being. He is a powerful energy within whom all exist. This energy can be evoked to give us positive when we choose the good from the heart. Quranically, this energy has always been here and it has given us the tools to feel it. A closer example of this is the baby in the womb. He is connected to the mother, but he doesn't see her those 9 months. This does not mean she doesn't exist.
God may know about our future, but that doesn't mean he won't give us options to change it. Hence, the immense number of times we have been told to seek guidance. The idea that we reside in him is not exactly an easy thing to grasp because our reality is limited.
If anyone did that, people would not only call such a person crazy, but would ask them to seek immediate psychological help. So I guess you will be able to at least understand why I decided to stop saying to myself that "this life is just a test and a teacher shouldn't help student's with their homeworks/test".
Yet it seems there has never been an atheist world.
And to answer your question about how the world would look if God decided to intervene and stop evil, let me tell you that the world would have been really beautiful. It would look like a merciful, loving, just, kind, reasonable creator created it.
Perhaps, it is possible to see such world after we leave this earth?
It isn't entirely contingent on conditioning. Yes, it can be nurtured. I agree. That is where reason comes in. There are psychopaths who stay away from psychopathic behaviors. Why? Because despite them not having a good working ability to FEEL empathy, they can tell WHY THEY SHOULD behave a certain way. We can all see the value in working towards a world where we all reciprocate nicely and minimize collisions. That doesn't even take involvement of emotions.
They should behave certain way because there is something called law. For the rest, Emanuel explains why what you said doesn't work
the human species Homo Sapiens, it will only care about its own pack and identity and easily ignores all circumstantial harm. The saving link here is the advanced consciousness it possesses which may if used open up to show empathy also towards things outside of the Beast's "area of interest" (or instinctive protection and nurture).
It does think "survival of the fittest" by instinct.
It enjoys hunting and enjoys violence.
It struggles to dominate others which can be revealed in that it likes to compete in team-like sports.
It does become lenient to the most socially and fiscally powerful ones and begins to imitate them.
It is prestigious meaning it will struggle to look good socially or fiscally.
It is jealous and will work hard to have what others have and to exceed their possessions if it can.
It does easily lie not to look bad socially or to gain wealth. Beautifying the truth into what it is not is also lying.
It does perceive the World with a materialist perception and generally tends to have gods that are visualized one way or another which is the fallacy of involving instinct in the Higher Consciousness processes.
It is greedy so it will in many cases place itself in the center.
It will struggle hard to be mating and does commit adultery if the desire becomes too strong and gives in to the Body.
It may react strongly to others who do not follow their instincts.
It may bully those outside the group with different group identity or lone wolves (clearly showing the lack of empathy sentiment).
If it does consider a party inferior or jealous towards them (unfairness) it may justify stealing from them. (Often happens in war)
And so on. It is good to sometimes make yourself aware that you are inside a thing that is apart from your Spirit and makes you a slave to the World because it does conform to it. It is that working and toiling mindlessly that is a huge trap. To work for things you do not really need just to be proud, pleased and be able to shine before others. Ignore that and just buy what you need and dress in simple clothes and ignore what people say about you and grow in confidence that you have something to reply in return to them. Feel your Spiritual path is only good for that it is.
A differentiation from these instincts can be explained by a connection to their Higher Consciousness i.e. their Spirit. The more "lifeless" and indulgent in the stereotypical community the more they give in to the primate. Trends, fashions, status is just a sign of how people are conforming to being their animal Body they are attached to.
sourcehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607830.msg376308#msg376308True. However, the things I talked about are pretty much universal. It seems like morality exists on a spectrum and clearly culture influences our view. That does not mean that we should do away with it. Just like the topic of health. You can disagree all you want about which particular state of your physical being is the best way to be, that doesn't mean that we should get rid of the notion of health! Why do that for morality?
God phenomenon is universal also. Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus may not agree on how he is, but that doesn't mean we have to get rid of the notion of God. But you did.
I mean, this is something that people don't seem to put much thought into before talking about it. Just imagine, there does exist people who say that morbid obesity is not a health problem, all the class A drugs are not a health problem, all kinds of denialists who don't agree with the bulk of humanity on what is healthy and what is not. Did that make us throw away the very notion of "health" and be like "Oh! A person can just say for their own selfish benefit that shooting heroin is healthy for them according to their standards. Therefore lets get rid of the idea of health and physical well-being altogether!". If we don't say ridiculous things like that when it comes to health, why say similar things when the discussion of morality is involved? There is no particular reason except for someone to try to make it sound like without God there would be no morality. Which is clearly refuted by the evidence of reality where atheists do not form the majority of the criminals in this world.
Consider the following
Mr XYZ doesn't want to do bad because he knows a higher power is watching over him.
Mr ABC wants to do bad because he knows he is not accountable to any higher power. He has got just one life. So why not just live it like there is no tomorrow?Do you get now why the matter of morality is brought to table?
You misunderstood my test. I wasn't asking you based on on the absolute number of criminals. Let's put it this way
Say the world population is 7 billion. There are 1.5 billion Muslims, 2 billion Christians, 0.5 billion Buddhists, 1 billion Hindus, 2 billion Jews. Now let's say we created a prison for all the bad people in the world and we find the following
Prison population demographics
80% are Buddhists
5 % are Muslims
10% are Christians
3 % are Hindus
2 % are JewsWhat does that data tell us? It tells us that despite the Buddhists being the minority in the world, they are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Despite Buddhist being just 7% of the world's population, they represent a giant 80% of the world's prison population. From that you could start talking about the correlation between being Buddhist and having a high chance of being a criminal.
That is the type of study I wanted you to do. Atheists being minority won't count.
In the history of humans, nobody has ever been able to show a correlation like that for atheists. I know that even if you won't admit it, you already know it. If a crime takes place anywhere on this world, even the most crazy governments like Saudis won't first go after the atheists randomly. That is because virtually everyone already knows that the likelihood of one doing a bad action is not contingent on whether they believe that the universe had a creator or not.
It all depends on our individual "values" and "ideals". Not whether we believe there is a God or not. Where would you want to spend the rest of your life, in France (almost 50% atheists) or ISIS controlled territory(almost 100% believers in God)? The answer to that should tell you why atheism doesn't make people evil on it's own.
And when did all the inmates start to tell the truth? One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that they do lie. Pretending to be a pious christian is a good option to look honest to jailers. Do note that psychopaths are good at manipulation. I wouldn't use ISIS as an example of believers because it is pretty much known now that they are a setup by the elite.
https//www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ra3ez/isis_is_a_usisrael_proxy_army_evidence_thread/And to be honest, even as a Muslim, I was always terrified of other sectarian Muslims and NEVER EVER afraid that an atheist will harm me.
I mentioned something about this in my other thread. Currently, it is not right for us to think atheists are immoral because of conditioning coming from religions. They are surrounded with religious folks and also according to my professors, ethical laws are derived from scriptures. They say that logic can make the worst look better. Hence, in many cases of "where the ethics in it" is answered by religions.
Are you suggesting in some weird way that all the people who commit crimes, or at least a considerable number of them, are atheists. Then they go into prison and start believing in a God and then adopts a religion? I hope not.
Nope, I was pointing out that using prison population to prove atheists don't do crimes is a bad idea.
What does this tell you? WHY do you think these services are provided? As far as I know, these services are provided because the inmates going in want them. When was the last time you have seen an atheist asking for a Mullah or Catholic priest? They have these options available for people so that they may carry on whatever religious stuff they must while being in prison.
No, if you go back to the description I pasted from the site you will notice that it says religions do run certain rehab like programs.
ExampleAlternatives to Violence/Hands of Peace
One does not necessarily have to be christian to come in regular contact with at least christian priests. Same is seen in hospitals. When my parents were admitted christian priests visited them in the rooms to pray for them. No one asked for it, but they just thought they had a responsibility to do so. They did same for the father of my Buddhist friend.I would fight until my last breath with all my might to stop that from happening. Religions shouldn't be banned just because they are religions. It'd go against my fundamental human rights. I wouldn't want to live in a world where I am being forced and told what to believe in or not believe in. Freedom of thoughts, beliefs, expression,speech are vital in my world view.
This doesn't mean that I want religion to be there. I just don't want to force people through legislation and sword to stop believing. That sounds to me like a seriously diabolic thing to do. I consider a lot of religious beliefs to be detrimental to progress and human well-being. Therefore I want to eradicate such poisonous beliefs.
You have a good dream about the world. I dreamed the same about this Quran movement. I thought it is the only way to bring peace and an urge to take care of the earth but after seeing certain ill posts about how sex before marriage is not forbidden and example I gave herehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607757.msg375108#msg375108 I have come to realize it isn't for everyone.
Similar to this is what the members have been indirectly saying to you here. Another atheist might not be thinking just like you and this is where things get complicated esp in morality department. Quranists certainly are not promoting violence. But atheists like Bill Maher do. He thinks bombing can be humanitarian and that's very scary. In the class, despite being christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, etc we never made comment on who believed in the correct god, but then atheist professor came along to let the christian students to know their god didn't exist. It was not even connected to the course. That's intolerance. And if you just notice the top countries that have the least tolerance to freedom of religion you will find china and north korea in the list. So all atheists don't have similar view except that god doesn't exist. Do ponder upon Emanuel's post I pasted above and also the things from protocols of learned elders of zion. You will notice that you have surrendered to exact thing they have been aiming for to leave the society disintegrated.
My way of dealing with them is through dialogues such as this one, debates, education, etc. The only time I'd advocate government intervention is times like when people are being harmed, especially physically. Other than that, my war against crazy and dangerous belief systems is solely reliant on intellectual means.
But what if there is corruption in education and something none of us know because it was not allowed to be taught? What if some things we are learning are false? Protocols of zion book seems to hint it to be true and also we cannot deny the fact that scientists face problem if they give positive theories on God.
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Shalom Aleikhem good logic,
Now we are getting somewhere. we are at opposing ends We are" two parallel lines".
So unless one of us changes direction/course or both of us change direction/course, we will carry on this " battle".
As long as you are being a decent human being, I don't really care much about your beliefs.
I appreciate and welcome your "continuous search". I also welcome your request for evidence. During the course of our conversation I may share with you "my evidence" but I must warn you that it may not satisfy your request .. Why?
Because like I said before if we travel at two parallel lines ,what you want as evidence and what I have for evidence are never going to "meet", "your evidence" will be different to mine
Well, that can happen. However, there is no harm in trying. If you do wish to share any particular evidence. I'd suggest that you open a thread just for that and present your case there and invite me to read, learn and investigate that and respond.
For me ,as a believer ,the evidence you might be looking for as an Atheist will not be shown to you until the "promised day"
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Those who do not expect to meet us said, "If only the angels could come down to us, or we could see our Lord (we would then believe)!" Indeed, they have committed a gross arrogance, and have produced a gross blasphemy.
2522
The day they see the angels( or GOD), it will not be good news for the guilty; they will say, "Now, we are irreversibly confined."And I cannot accept that. If I told you right now that I am the creator of Allah who created Allah and brainwashed Him into believing that he is the one and only God, would you believe me? You know, I am just visiting the earth as a mortal for now for fun. Wouldn't you ask for evidence? What if I told you that I'll only give you that evidence after you die? Would you even take my claim seriously after that?
From my perspective, this is what is going on I was born in a Muslim family who brainwashed me as a child along with my community to be a believer in God and Islam. When I grew up, I wanted to know further about it and found the source material (Qur'an). After the studying the Qur'an for some time, I concluded that it cannot be divine. After looking for evidence for the existence of God for so long, I'm still waiting today. And now you come and tell me that I have to die first to know if it would be reasonable for me to believe or not believe!
It sounds very much like this GodFather analogy I heard. This guy is confronted by a gangster who says that the God father wants you to do X,Y,Z, if you don't do it, he will slaughter your kids and their kids in the future! So the guy asks the gangster "Where is this GodFather?", to which the gangster replies "In a town outside your reach. No transport, phone lines, internet, anything goes there". The guy seems puzzled about what to do. Then the gangster tells him "don't be that worried now! If you do X,Y,Z for the rest of your life though, the GodFather will give you 100 million dollars when you retire". The guy says "You want me to work my entire life and do X,Y,Z for some GodFather whom I've never even met, can't even tell if he exists?". The gangster replies saying "Well, it's your choice, you can either retire with 100 million dollars or have your family massacred! Either will be good evidence for his existance!"
Yes ,you might mention "Scientific facts" ...etc. This world with its laws and Scientific facts will not "show GOD" or other dimensions no matter how advanced or ...We become.
Let me confirm for you that I follow and have a lot of interest in Science. I also want to "prove all things" if possible.God doesn't have to do anymore for me to convince me than he did for people like Moses, Jesus or Muhammad. I don't need to literally see him to find his existence the most likely thing to be.
Notice I said "believer" I mean I have other evidence like "Mathematics" in the universe and the message. GOD s signature on HIS creations.I will gladly share that part with you.
Alright.
For now I am certain and satisfied with my evidence .
But I am reading and listening to your take on things.
So far we remain "Opposites"?Well, if I don't have the evidence and you do, we are meant to hold opposite views on the matter.
You have asked,quote
This sounds very dark. Can you please confirm what you mean by "last chance"? Do you mean that this life is the only chance I will get? or do you mean that if I don't accept God right now right here, you will kill me and I will have no chance left?
I understand from GOD s message that this life is our "last chance" to redeem ourselves back to GOD s kingdom. I was talking in general about "us humans" not you in particular. I am also one of you.That is "my understanding.
As far as I am concerned you are "safe and free " to do as you please, I am no one s advocate or judge.Looking forward to continue this conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.That's good to know. Given the total number of threats I've received so far, I was just a bit worried.
May peace be with you
-------------------------------- Student of Allah
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Actually, a program has been started to teach men to be not rapist. The all powerful one has given us the book that we can use to teach people not to murder and rape.
No evidence for that at all. Any peer reviewed scientific journal to back that claim up? You are simply ASSERTING that after reading that book, people will not rape. However that is not that case.
To be frank, this further adds to my point. Why in the world wouldn't he program that into us to begin with? Why hide the program in one of thousands of ancient books all of which claims to be divine, written in a language most of the world's population doesn't give a damn about? Not to mention that most sentences and the implications of them are totally contingent on subjective interpretation. What an extremely bizarre way of telling people to not rape! Especially when he could just beam it to us perhaps in the form of an instinct. That clearly shows that he is a pro-rape God. If I were in his position, I'd program it into people to not be able to rape in the first place. It is disgusting to create someone sick, then go to extreme lengths to hide the cure and then torture people for not finding the cure later on! For shame!
He does tell us that we will be tested.
That is not an answer to the problem with your philosophy that I pointed out. Let me quote myself again and please explain to me/answer my question
That was what I believed when I was a Muslim. However, upon realizing where I went wrong, I had to stop believing in that. Let me share with you what caused the change in my belief. I realized that I was comparing apple to oranges with that teacher-student example. For example, let's say I was teaching kids how to solve a calculus problem and testing them. I'd never do their homeworks or exams for them. HOWEVER, if I was teaching them ways of avoiding rape or murder, it would be a totally different thing. I wouldn't test their skills in a setting where they'd actually get raped and murdered. Especially if I had ALL POWER to stop the rapist and murderer. See the difference now?
After realizing that crucial difference, I took it a step further. I questioned the very idea of testing. That is because, there is no point in an ALL KNOWING being testing anything. It just makes no sense. Imagine you being the trainer of the US Navy seals. Would you ever shoot the trainees point blank in their heads to test if that will harm them? You wouldn't! However, you'd test if they can learn the skills that you are there to train them with. Right? Why is there that difference? What makes the first test a no-no and a second one an okay one? The trouble with doing tests like the first one is that you already know the consequences with near about 100% certainty. However, in case of the second one, DUE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE GAP, you must rely on testing systems to ensure that you are giving a pass grade to someone who actually is capable of pulling off what you have to teach.
Now please realize that the God you believe in is ALL KNOWING and therefore can also see the future. The implications of which is that irrespective of how much free-will he bestows upon you, he ALREADY KNEW even before creating ANYTHING if you'd pass or fail. So why bother with any testing at all? That just adds to suffering! He could have simply created the nice ones and put them in heaven. No suffering, no drama. But no, knowing in advance who'd fail the trial and who will pass, he did go forward with creating everything anyway. He then comically acts all shocked and appalled by the behaviors of the ones that fail and impressed by the behaviors of the ones that passes the test. Then he goes on to put the passed people in heaven and the failures in some kind of a torture chamber. How is that reasonable? I know I can talk a lot but I feel like I must include another example of just how insane it is
I am an infinitely creative and capable computer programmer who creates artificial intelligence software that are conscious in a way and can feel pain/pleasure. Before I write my next 100 programs, I already know that 50 of them will malfunction while the other 50 will work just as I love it. I have the plan to put all the nice ones into the HEAVEN folder. I realize that I could just directly write the nice softwares into the heaven folder and be done with that. But no! I don't do that. First I create 100 programs knowing well that the bad ones will make the good ones suffer too. Then after a set date, I move the good ones to the HEAVEN folder and create a torture folder called HELL for the remaining malfunctioning programs!
The problem here is that the software is not made up of the computer programmer. Hence, it is not the analogy that can be used to understand God.
How does that affect the analogy? Are you kidding me? So you are saying that if I create robots with free will knowing in advance that they will use the free will to kill your parents, I am accountable. However, when your God made people with free will who HE KNEW will go murder and rape, he isn't accountable?
To be honest, the difference between the two analogies are that the human programmer would be less accountable. The reason being that he isn't all powerful and couldn't possibly try to intervene and stop the murders. Whereas, your God should be put on trial for
- KNOWINGLY aiding in murder and rape
- Not stopping the criminals when it takes him less than zero effort to stop. Where a man has to work for it, he can just will!
He isn't a separate being. He is a powerful energy within whom all exist. This energy can be evoked to give us positive when we choose the good from the heart. Quranically, this energy has always been here and it has given us the tools to feel it. A closer example of this is the baby in the womb. He is connected to the mother, but he doesn't see her those 9 months. This does not mean she doesn't exist.
Still doesn't explain anything..... You might as well have talked about what kind of food he prefers here. Still would have made your point just as much.
God may know about our future, but that doesn't mean he won't give us options to change it. Hence, the immense number of times we have been told to seek guidance. The idea that we reside in him is not exactly an easy thing to grasp because our reality is limited.
No matter how many times we change it, HE ALREADY KNEW THE END RESULT. Therefore giving us options to change doesn't mean a thing. Here is an example
I ask you to pick a number between one to ten and I am ALL KNOWING and therefore KNOW WHAT YOU WILL PICK IN THE VERY LAST ATTEMPT. You pick a number and I ask you to change it. You swap your choice with another number. I ask you to change it again and again. After asking you 100 times to change it, you tell me that the number was 8. Now, please use your reasoning abilities to answer this question If I am all knowing and can see the future, wouldn't I already know even before we play the game that at the end of the day after 100 changes you will pick 8? Of course I'd know.
Therefore, just because people get chances to choose differently, you cannot conclude that God didn't already know. Now if you say that you meant that God knew but people are to be blamed for it, then you have to answer the dilemma I presented above with the robots. Please explain why God isn't responsible then when you'd hold anyone else who knowingly aids evil when they could stop it.
I am an infinitely creative and capable computer programmer who creates artificial intelligence software that are conscious in a way and can feel pain/pleasure. Before I write my next 100 programs, I already know that 50 of them will malfunction while the other 50 will work just as I love it. I have the plan to put all the nice ones into the HEAVEN folder. I realize that I could just directly write the nice softwares into the heaven folder and be done with that. But no! I don't do that. First I create 100 programs knowing well that the bad ones will make the good ones suffer too. Then after a set date, I move the good ones to the HEAVEN folder and create a torture folder called HELL for the remaining malfunctioning programs!
If anyone did that, people would not only call such a person crazy, but would ask them to seek immediate psychological help. So I guess you will be able to at least understand why I decided to stop saying to myself that "this life is just a test and a teacher shouldn't help student's with their homeworks/test".
Yet it seems there has never been an atheist world.
Really, that's all you could say to that? Why don't you attempt at responding to what I am saying and showing me where I am going wrong? Wouldn't that be much more productive than an absolutely non-answer?
Perhaps, it is possible to see such world after we leave this earth?
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No evidence for that, so that's as likely as me being a God who lost his memory and power after a planned trip to earth where I was supposed to live like a human. Who knows?
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Still don't want to address the bit about your God taking responsibility into his hands and making the world a better place, do you? Always relying on the weak and flawed to do the right thing when the most perfect and most powerful one just sits there idly watching horrendous evil and suffering.
They should behave certain way because there is something called law. For the rest, Emanuel explains why what you said doesn't work
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That is not true. I don't know about the type of person you are. However, doesn't go around raping and murdering or abusing little kids because there are laws against those things. Our built in instincts nurtured by values that reflects the basic premises of well-being I discussed earlier (health being preferred over sickness,etc) is what makes us moral. The law is there to penalize the ones going against those things only.
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Emanuel's writings are extremely polarized and focuses solely on the dark side. Which is NOT THE TRUE PICTURE. Yes I have been unkind at times, but just because I have been unkind at times doesn't mean that I am some kind of volcano oozing out unkindness. That is what Emanuel has done with his post. He absolutely ignored all pros of homosapiens and wrote solely about the cons. And modeled homosapiens only after that, making us look like the monsters that WE ARE NOT. It's like someone saying "Homosapiens can be forgiving. Therefore they are only able to forgive. They can't ever hold anything against anyone". It's just as flawed as that. Don't know why you can't see through his extremely polarised analysis of homosapiens. On top of that, why would you share his post to make the point? There have been countless peer reviewed journals and books published on the nature of Man. What makes Emanuel's polarized opinions trump all of that research? Your bias perhaps?
God phenomenon is universal also. Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus may not agree on how he is, but that doesn't mean we have to get rid of the notion of God. But you did.
What in the name of the mother of Christ are you talking about? hypno
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I do believe and know that God BELIEFS are a universal phenomenon. You put it wrongly. God Phenomenon isn't the universal thing. It's the BELIEFS that are universal. There is a world of a difference between something being a phenomenon as opposed to mere beliefs.
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I never "got rid of the notion of God". I have no evidence to believe that there is one. I also don't have evidence that there are no Gods. I always mention that whenever someone asks me about my atheism. Done so many times on this forum actually. So how did I get rid of that notion? I am not saying that people don't have God beliefs . I am just saying that none can provide evidence for them. JUST LIKE YOU.
Consider the following
Mr XYZ doesn't want to do bad because he knows a higher power is watching over him.
Mr ABC wants to do bad because he knows he is not accountable to any higher power. He has got just one life. So why not just live it like there is no tomorrow?-
I, along with virtually all atheists I know do live like there is no tomorrow. Guess what? None of us rape,murder, rob, etc. I understand that if you didn't have someone watching you all the time, you'd probably do all that. Please just don't project them onto us. Ask us first about what we feel like doing instead of projecting your feelings onto us.
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Do you not see what you did there? In your example, you SET IT UP! You wrote it such that the god-believer DOES'NT WANT TO do bad and the atheist WANTS TO DO BAD.
You are the one who wrote that and is making it seem like God believers are all like that or mostly like that and Atheists are are all mostly like that. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. I have told you before and I will demand from you again, please show me a statistics of crime based on people's religious beliefs. AFTER you can demonstrate that atheists are the only ones who commit crime, or at least most atheists are like that, and after you demonstrate that religious people are INCAPABLE of committing crimes or MOST OF THEM are incapable of breaking the law, then you get to start talking like that.
Seriously? Your assumptions about atheists are disturbing. Even more so when the implications are such that the only reason you haven't yet molested a kid is because God is watching! For shame!
Do you get now why the matter of morality is brought to table?
To let the world know that if God wasn't looking you'd be a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath?
I can't believe that you'd ever try to argue that without God you have no reason to not be all of that I mentioned above! Now if you say that God isn't the only reason you aren't a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath, then you should already know why morality shouldn't be on the table.
Also that you failed to provide any evidence for Atheists committing more crimes than God believers. That shows that even without God, we are no less moral than you are. That alone should make you rethink before putting morality on the table.
And when did all the inmates start to tell the truth? One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that they do lie. Pretending to be a pious christian is a good option to look honest to jailers. Do note that psychopaths are good at manipulation. I wouldn't use ISIS as an example of believers because it is pretty much known now that they are a setup by the elite.
https//www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ra3ez/isis_is_a_usisrael_proxy_army_evidence_thread/You are now officially insane.
You are suggesting that nobody who believes in the existence of a God can commit crimes. I think any honest member of this forum or human being in general will disagree with you. That is just EVIDENTLY WRONG. On top of that, rather disturbing and offensively, you are trying to indirectly imply that the entire world's prison population is atheists who are lying?
You have to be MAD to believe in something like that. I am no longer sure about your mental state.
I mentioned something about this in my other thread. Currently, it is not right for us to think atheists are immoral because of conditioning coming from religions. They are surrounded with religious folks and also according to my professors, ethical laws are derived from scriptures. They say that logic can make the worst look better. Hence, in many cases of "where the ethics in it" is answered by religions.
- Bullshit! Anything moral prescribed by religion can be arrived at using reason and our inner compasses. If our morality would have just been borrowed from these dirty religions, we'd be talking about torturing you guys indefinitely for not believing, stoning people to death for petty crimes and often non-crimes, beheading people for their speech, chopping off people's hands, etc.
You seem to have no idea about philosophy and other worldviews where people follow various systems without ever even believing in a God.
I strongly disagree with you that the only reason I haven't molested kids is because my ex religion was against it! That is appalling to even think about. I don't do that because it's first not what I want to do, on top of it, it adds to human suffering while taking away from human well-being. Therefore I wouldn't want to live in a world where that was okay. It's sickening to hear someone say that I am not molesting kids because once upon a time I read their old book!
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Religion isn't welcomed in discussions of ethics in any serious academic circles. Religious people lobby and uses their voting power or dictatorship in places like Saudi to get involved.
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Religions, especially ones like the one you follow, don't give us a moral system anyway. They give us moral pronouncements. Please google "secular morality" to learn further about how unlike you, we don't need a god to tell us why not to rape the kid next door.
Nope, I was pointing out that using prison population to prove atheists don't do crimes is a bad idea.
Well that's the only way to do it. That is the conclusive method of demonstration that everyone that breaks the law is an atheist and only an atheist.
The reason you aren't interested is because YOU KNOW that what you are saying is absolute and utter bullshit and a fairytale you believe in. Perhaps demonizing atheists and dehumanizing them makes you feel good about yourself?
No, if you go back to the description I pasted from the site you will notice that it says religions do run certain rehab like programs.
ExampleAlternatives to Violence/Hands of Peace
One does not necessarily have to be christian to come in regular contact with at least christian priests. Same is seen in hospitals. When my parents were admitted christian priests visited them in the rooms to pray for them. No one asked for it, but they just thought they had a responsibility to do so. They did same for the father of my Buddhist friend.How in the world does that equal to EVERYONE THAT EVER COMMITTED A CRIME IS AN ATHEIST PRETENDING TO BE A THEIST? or THEISTS ARE INCAPABLE OF COMMITTING CRIME?
You have a good dream about the world. I dreamed the same about this Quran movement. I thought it is the only way to bring peace and an urge to take care of the earth but after seeing certain ill posts about how sex before marriage is not forbidden and example I gave herehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607757.msg375108#msg375108 I have come to realize it isn't for everyone.
As far as Islamic reformation goes, I think the Quranist movement should get to become the mainstream one if we are to have a peaceful Islamic world.
Similar to this is what the members have been indirectly saying to you here. Another atheist might not be thinking just like you and this is where things get complicated esp in morality department. Quranists certainly are not promoting violence. But atheists like Bill Maher do. He thinks bombing can be humanitarian and that's very scary. In the class, despite being christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, etc we never made comment on who believed in the correct god, but then atheist professor came along to let the christian students to know their god didn't exist. It was not even connected to the course. That's intolerance. And if you just notice the top countries that have the least tolerance to freedom of religion you will find china and north korea in the list. So all atheists don't have similar view except that god doesn't exist. Do ponder upon Emanuel's post I pasted above and also the things from protocols of learned elders of zion. You will notice that you have surrendered to exact thing they have been aiming for to leave the society disintegrated.
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I also happen to think that whether bombing is humanitarian or evil depends on the situation. It has nothing to do with my atheism. I'm sure you'll find many muslims on this site who'd agree with me that depending on the circumstance, killing is fine.
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What some one atheist professor did wherever cannot be used to make every atheist look like that. Do you have any idea how much forcing religious people do over non-religious ones? Did you ever look at the parts of the world where religion dominates? Even in secular countries, the religious ones tries constantly to have prayers in schools, they even printed that idea on the bank notes and constantly tries to put up religious monuments in public buildings. Please don't try to make it sound like you live in a world where atheists are persecuting God believers more than God believers are violating human rights of the atheists on a daily basis and force feed their dogma to the atheists on a daily basis all around the world depending on how powerful a certain religious group is in that part of that world.
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You say that other atheists can be unlike me. So could other God believers. I know God believers who are murderers and rapists and corrupt traitors. Now what? Should I start having a panic attack about anything who believes in a God just because someone else could be less peaceful person than you are?
If you want to be afraid of atheists/secular people being criminals, first show us the evidence. I have been asking for it for a long time now. Have written chapter books on it in this thread. Yet you refuse to bring any evidence. All you do is keep asserting or implying that prison population throughout the entire world, which is a very good source to prove your case, is full of 100% liars who are all atheists pretending to believe in Gods.
I kinda think that I could call the mods on you for suggesting such things about entire groups of people. I don't want to make things dirty. So I'll just ask you and request that you do not ever try to imply something that horrendous about us atheists and demonize us to that point. Either show the evidence for that or know that just like your belief in God, you have no evidence to show for this belief.
But what if there is corruption in education and something none of us know because it was not allowed to be taught? What if some things we are learning are false? Protocols of zion book seems to hint it to be true and also we cannot deny the fact that scientists face problem if they give positive theories on God.
That's another major league bullshit. A scientist who could prove God would immediately win a Nobel prize and be the greatest scientist ever. Due to my extensive exposure to these things, I do know what you are referring to. What happens is that some pseudo scientists loses their reputation in the scientific community by publishing papers based on arguments from ignorance to invoke God. Basically, they find things they can't explain and go like "Just because I don't know how it could have happened, therefore God". That is the fastest way to lose respect in the scientific community. There are elite level God believing scientists too. They just aren't dishonest pricks like the ones you think "faces problem for coming up with theories of God".
If you disagree, please give me the name of one such scientist and I will tell you exactly why he became a laughing stock in academia. I have studied these cases a lot when I was a Muslim.
P.S. If you still keep stating that all the people in the world who are going to prison for committing crime, or even lucky and got away with their crimes, are all atheist, without evidence, then A, I'll report you to the moderators. B, you can forget having a discussion with me.
Peace
---------------------- Student of Allah -
Peace Student Of Allah.
Thank you for your answer. You mixed me up with "jafar" halfway through your post ,but that is fine we are all humans.
Your analogy about the "godfather" is fine except you forgot to mention that all systems of this life are run by "godfathers" some are fine (not perfect),some are bad and some are "ugly".
I happen to accept the only "GODFATHER" system that should be followed,according to me. It makes sense to me and benefits me. I found my "GODFATHER"to have the best/fairest/...system.
So my answer to your analogy is My "GODFATHER" does not order /instruct -Fahisha"...Bad things.
If you get to know "HIM "and "about HIM" you will see?Also when I say you "cannot see GOD",there is no such evidence ,I do not mean you cannot see proofs/signs of HIS existence throughout the creation.
GOD has given us the eyes,ears and brain(according to my understanding) . Our intellect and reasoning can easily sort out if there really is " intelligent design" around us and in us. i.e is there an intelligentt,original source that " designed and created" us,and what is on our earth and universe?
We are coming to opposite conclusions so far,brother . If you are using Science and I am also using Science, you used Qoran and I am also using Qoran,does this mean there is something wrong with Science,Qoran, or both Science and Qoran?
Or does this mean one of us is coming to the wrong conclusion,or both of us?
I can only share my understanding with you. I cannot convince,nor am I here to convince you.
However .I am hoping our conversation will shed some light into "either you or me" or" both of us" need more reflection ,study and pondering.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Shalom Aleikhem good logic,
GOD has given us the eyes,ears and brain(according to my understanding) . Our intellect and reasoning can easily sort out if there really is " intelligent design" around us and in us. i.e is there an intelligentt,original source that " designed and created" us,and what is on our earth and universe?
Please define intelligent design. I have a hunch that you are talking about the same intelligent design that was thrown out of the court as "religious belief" not a scientific conclusion on the Dover Trial. If you do have the time, please watch this documentary https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht0n_WHWwE
We are coming to opposite conclusions so far,brother . If you are using Science and I am also using Science, you used Qoran and I am also using Qoran,does this mean there is something wrong with Science,Qoran, or both Science and Qoran?
I rely on science. However, that isn't strictly necessary to not believe in God claims. We can erase everything we know about the universe from science. Still, even then, I'd need evidence to believe in the existence of fairies, unicorns or God for that matter. Science just allows for me to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.
Well, the scientific claims have strong evidence for which I can at least tentatively accept them. When it comes to the Qur'an however, now matter how I put it, I have to take it on faith. That was my problem with it.
Or does this mean one of us is coming to the wrong conclusion,or both of us?
Since we hold opposing views, one or both of us could be wrong.
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
Peace Student Of Allah.
Thank you for the link. I have watched it now .
Here is one example ,from many others, of my understanding of "Intelligent design"
The human start life as one cell,before becoming a baby. That cell has a DNA structure that instruct it to grow /become many cells,then different organs each organ very complex and with a different task and role for the body. Surely An "Intelligent programmer,designer" has designed/created such a complex system?
My belief in Qoran,and you may already know this,is my own research and checking of the "interlock" system . Impossible for any human to compose a book and Mathematically seal it . To be aware of the count of each letter,word sentence and chapter and place them exactly with mathematical accuracy to produce a full book that is both a literacy and numeracy masterpiece.
Of course what Qoran is saying,as you know,and what people say it is saying can be completely different. Yes including what I say Qoran is saying. You need to study the book for yourself from cover to cover , check all the acts yourself and make up your own mind.
Qoran for me defines and explains
What is a "Muslim"? Is there religion? What is a believer? What is a hypocrite? What is a disbeliever? What does Qoran say about every question you have about GOD, us,this life and...many more?I read your posts to "reel" and others. There are many issues and assumptions from both sides with defining many things including a "believer", a "disbeliever"...etc That is where there are differences and misunderstandings.
For example not every religious person is a "believer"? Like not every Atheist is a "disbeliever"? etcGOD bless you.
Peace. -
No evidence for that at all. Any peer reviewed scientific journal to back that claim up? You are simply ASSERTING that after reading that book, people will not rape. However that is not that case.
Are you insulting the men of this forum? Aren't they evidence? Do you believe these men even after taking the Quranic path will rape?
To be frank, this further adds to my point. Why in the world wouldn't he program that into us to begin with? Why hide the program in one of thousands of ancient books all of which claims to be divine, written in a language most of the world's population doesn't give a damn about? Not to mention that most sentences and the implications of them are totally contingent on subjective interpretation. What an extremely bizarre way of telling people to not rape! Especially when he could just beam it to us perhaps in the form of an instinct. That clearly shows that he is a pro-rape God. If I were in his position, I'd program it into people to not be able to rape in the first place. It is disgusting to create someone sick, then go to extreme lengths to hide the cure and then torture people for not finding the cure later on! For shame!
He did tell us there will be bad things. But from atheistic point of view, why don't you tell us why rape exists when people are naturally compassionate and hate to see the bad?
After realizing that crucial difference, I took it a step further. I questioned the very idea of testing. That is because, there is no point in an ALL KNOWING being testing anything.
Yeah only if God was like human.
How does that affect the analogy? Are you kidding me? So you are saying that if I create robots with free will knowing in advance that they will use the free will to kill your parents, I am accountable. However, when your God made people with free will who HE KNEW will go murder and rape, he isn't accountable?
To be honest, the difference between the two analogies are that the human programmer would be less accountable. The reason being that he isn't all powerful and couldn't possibly try to intervene and stop the murders. Whereas, your God should be put on trial for
- KNOWINGLY aiding in murder and rape
- Not stopping the criminals when it takes him less than zero effort to stop. Where a man has to work for it, he can just will!
Your analogy is connected to separation between the bot and its creator. This does not apply to God.
Still doesn't explain anything.....
True because it is beyond your reality. You are trying to know it through your limited knowledge you gained from today's scientific thinking.
No matter how many times we change it, HE ALREADY KNEW THE END RESULT. Therefore giving us options to change doesn't mean a thing. Here is an example
I ask you to pick a number between one to ten and I am ALL KNOWING and therefore KNOW WHAT YOU WILL PICK IN THE VERY LAST ATTEMPT. You pick a number and I ask you to change it. You swap your choice with another number. I ask you to change it again and again. After asking you 100 times to change it, you tell me that the number was 8. Now, please use your reasoning abilities to answer this question If I am all knowing and can see the future, wouldn't I already know even before we play the game that at the end of the day after 100 changes you will pick 8? Of course I'd know.
Therefore, just because people get chances to choose differently, you cannot conclude that God didn't already know. Now if you say that you meant that God knew but people are to be blamed for it, then you have to answer the dilemma I presented above with the robots. Please explain why God isn't responsible then when you'd hold anyone else who knowingly aids evil when they could stop it.
Once again, you are applying your limited reality to understand God. He has his own rules which we still are not capable of understanding. However, we do know that he listens to us when we need something. I at least got surprising benefits despite not taking any steps. Now would you say it was sheer luck and not answer from God? If you choose luck then you know that there is no scientific proof that it exists. I posted a reply for you in another thread. I am pasting the link here. After reading it through, explain to us by using science why these things are happening
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607936.20Really, that's all you could say to that? Why don't you attempt at responding to what I am saying and showing me where I am going wrong? Wouldn't that be much more productive than an absolutely non-answer?
Which question did I skip?
- No evidence for that, so that's as likely as me being a God who lost his memory and power after a planned trip to earth where I was supposed to live like a human. Who knows?
GERMAN SCIENTISTS PROVE THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH
http//worldnewsdailyreport.com/german-scientists-prove-there-is-life-after-death/- Still don't want to address the bit about your God taking responsibility into his hands and making the world a better place, do you?
In his hands??? He isn't a human. However, if you are pointing to quranic term "hand" then do note that it means ability.
Always relying on the weak and flawed to do the right thing when the most perfect and most powerful one just sits there idly watching horrendous evil and suffering
I can't speak about a God who is human like!
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That is not true. I don't know about the type of person you are. However, doesn't go around raping and murdering or abusing little kids because there are laws against those things. Our built in instincts nurtured by values that reflects the basic premises of well-being I discussed earlier (health being preferred over sickness,etc) is what makes us moral. The law is there to penalize the ones going against those things only.
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Emanuel's writings are extremely polarized and focuses solely on the dark side. Which is NOT THE TRUE PICTURE. Yes I have been unkind at times, but just because I have been unkind at times doesn't mean that I am some kind of volcano oozing out unkindness. That is what Emanuel has done with his post. He absolutely ignored all pros of homosapiens and wrote solely about the cons. And modeled homosapiens only after that, making us look like the monsters that WE ARE NOT. It's like someone saying "Homosapiens can be forgiving. Therefore they are only able to forgive. They can't ever hold anything against anyone". It's just as flawed as that. Don't know why you can't see through his extremely polarised analysis of homosapiens. On top of that, why would you share his post to make the point? There have been countless peer reviewed journals and books published on the nature of Man. What makes Emanuel's polarized opinions trump all of that research? Your bias perhaps?
Don't you think you are contradicting? When you talk about God you see rape and murder, but when it comes to atheism you claim that humans are naturally moral. Don't you think this is a bias? I don't know where you live, but what Emanuel wrote is something we see in the west a lot.
What in the name of the mother of Christ are you talking about? hypno
- I do believe and know that God BELIEFS are a universal phenomenon. You put it wrongly. God Phenomenon isn't the universal thing. It's the BELIEFS that are universal. There is a world of a difference between something being a phenomenon as opposed to mere beliefs.
What is diff between belief in a religion versus God? Just because I did not mention atheism as the other religion does not mean that is not true.
- I never "got rid of the notion of God". I have no evidence to believe that there is one. I also don't have evidence that there are no Gods. I always mention that whenever someone asks me about my atheism. Done so many times on this forum actually. So how did I get rid of that notion? I am not saying that people don't have God beliefs . I am just saying that none can provide evidence for them. JUST LIKE YOU.
I provided. I saw God. The description given above is the evidence of it. Feel free to start researching to know what I said is true. Don't wait for other researchers. Also I have actually told you in another thread to do something so you may find your own result without spending a dime. I am pasting it here
Try that test in yourself and see how you react. Try adding in your signature "I wish God would kill my parents" and stay with it for a while with the notion that since God doesn't exist me praying for their harm won't matter.- I, along with virtually all atheists I know do live like there is no tomorrow. Guess what? None of us rape,murder, rob, etc. I understand that if you didn't have someone watching you all the time, you'd probably do all that. Please just don't project them onto us. Ask us first about what we feel like doing instead of projecting your feelings onto us.
Generalization? Doesn't China exist anymore?
Radical Atheist Kills Three Muslims in North Carolina
http//www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/20103-radical-atheist-kills-three-muslims-in-north-carolinaAtheist government of Soviet Union
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union- Do you not see what you did there? In your example, you SET IT UP! You wrote it such that the god-believer DOES'NT WANT TO do bad and the atheist WANTS TO DO BAD.
It just means humans are capable of doing evil, but some who have fear of God would choose to stay on the right track.
You are the one who wrote that and is making it seem like God believers are all like that or mostly like that and Atheists are are all mostly like that. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. I have told you before and I will demand from you again, please show me a statistics of crime based on people's religious beliefs. AFTER you can demonstrate that atheists are the only ones who commit crime, or at least most atheists are like that, and after you demonstrate that religious people are INCAPABLE of committing crimes or MOST OF THEM are incapable of breaking the law, then you get to start talking like that.
I did not see anywhere you mentioned that prison population coming from religions did their crimes in the name of God. I told you all the reasons for which we cannot use prison population to understand who commits the most crimes.
Seriously? Your assumptions about atheists are disturbing. Even more so when the implications are such that the only reason you haven't yet molested a kid is because God is watching! For shame!
To let the world know that if God wasn't looking you'd be a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath?
I can't believe that you'd ever try to argue that without God you have no reason to not be all of that I mentioned above! Now if you say that God isn't the only reason you aren't a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath, then you should already know why morality shouldn't be on the table.
Also that you failed to provide any evidence for Atheists committing more crimes than God believers. That shows that even without God, we are no less moral than you are. That alone should make you rethink before putting morality on the table.
But it looks like even atheists agree with me
Scientific research yields inconsistent and contradictory evidence relating religion to moral judgments and outcomes, yet most people on earth nonetheless view belief in God (or gods) as central to morality, and many view atheists with suspicion and scorn. To evaluate intuitions regarding a causal link between religion and morality, this paper tested intuitive moral judgments of atheists and other groups. Across five experiments (N=1,152), American participants intuitively judged a wide variety of immoral acts (e.g., serial murder, consensual incest, necrobestiality, cannibalism) as representative of atheists, but not of eleven other religious, ethnic, and cultural groups. Even atheist participants judged immoral acts as more representative of atheists than of other groups. These findings demonstrate a prevalent intuition that belief in God serves a necessary function in inhibiting immoral conduct, and may help explain persistent negative perceptions of atheists. http//journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092302You are now officially insane.
You are suggesting that nobody who believes in the existence of a God can commit crimes. I think any honest member of this forum or human being in general will disagree with you. That is just EVIDENTLY WRONG. On top of that, rather disturbing and offensively, you are trying to indirectly imply that the entire world's prison population is atheists who are lying?
You have to be MAD to believe in something like that. I am no longer sure about your mental state.
Show me where I claimed majority in the jail are atheist.
I already told you about the environment of jail. Any psychopath can lie. Even a Muslim, hindu or Buddhist criminal can claim to be Christian just so he become free or feel that he has got God in christ.As far as Islamic reformation goes, I think the Quranist movement should get to become the mainstream one if we are to have a peaceful Islamic world.
Its just not gonna happen.
- I also happen to think that whether bombing is humanitarian or evil depends on the situation. It has nothing to do with my atheism. I'm sure you'll find many muslims on this site who'd agree with me that depending on the circumstance, killing is fine.
Bombing can't be humanitarian because it does sometimes kill civilians.
- What some one atheist professor did wherever cannot be used to make every atheist look like that. Do you have any idea how much forcing religious people do over non-religious ones? Did you ever look at the parts of the world where religion dominates?
He isn't the only one. I just gave one example of intolerance.
Do you have any idea how much forcing religious people do over non-religious ones? Did you ever look at the parts of the world where religion dominates?Even in secular countries, the religious ones tries constantly to have prayers in schools, they even printed that idea on the bank notes and constantly tries to put up religious monuments in public buildings.
In American classroms, this is considered as disrespect.
Please don't try to make it sound like you live in a world where atheists are persecuting God believers more than God believers are violating human rights of the atheists on a daily basis and force feed their dogma to the atheists on a daily basis all around the world depending on how powerful a certain religious group is in that part of that world.
They surely aren't doing now....but people do have bizarre feeling that they should get rid of those who don't agree with them. That is why, we God alone people are supposed to be killed if found in Afghanistan.
- You say that other atheists can be unlike me. So could other God believers. I know God believers who are murderers and rapists and corrupt traitors. Now what? Should I start having a panic attack about anything who believes in a God just because someone else could be less peaceful person than you are?
Try arguing with an atheist about sexual liberation.
If you want to be afraid of atheists/secular people being criminals, first show us the evidence. I have been asking for it for a long time now. Have written chapter books on it in this thread. Yet you refuse to bring any evidence. All you do is keep asserting or implying that prison population throughout the entire world, which is a very good source to prove your case, is full of 100% liars who are all atheists pretending to believe in Gods.
Answered above.
I kinda think that I could call the mods on you for suggesting such things about entire groups of people. I don't want to make things dirty. So I'll just ask you and request that you do not ever try to imply something that horrendous about us atheists and demonize us to that point. Either show the evidence for that or know that just like your belief in God, you have no evidence to show for this belief.
That's another major league bullshit. A scientist who could prove God would immediately win a Nobel prize and be the greatest scientist ever. Due to my extensive exposure to these things, I do know what you are referring to. What happens is that some pseudo scientists loses their reputation in the scientific community by publishing papers based on arguments from ignorance to invoke God. Basically, they find things they can't explain and go like "Just because I don't know how it could have happened, therefore God". That is the fastest way to lose respect in the scientific community. There are elite level God believing scientists too. They just aren't dishonest pricks like the ones you think "faces problem for coming up with theories of God".
If you disagree, please give me the name of one such scientist and I will tell you exactly why he became a laughing stock in academia. I have studied these cases a lot when I was a Muslim.
P.S. If you still keep stating that all the people in the world who are going to prison for committing crime, or even lucky and got away with their crimes, are all atheist, without evidence, then A, I'll report you to the moderators. B, you can forget having a discussion with me.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g
Its kind of strange that you make long posts, but you never seem to say anything about the paragraphs from Protocols of Learned Elders of Zion.Call the mods. I wholeheartedly welcome you to do it. Don't let the urge go unsatisfied. I am taken by your tolerance D
http//i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm224/Dolls2008/Doll%20Tags/Animated/Roses.gif -
Shalom Aleikhem,
Thank you for the link. I have watched it now .
For real?
Here is one example ,from many others, of my understanding of "Intelligent design"
The human start life as one cell,before becoming a baby. That cell has a DNA structure that instruct it to grow /become many cells,then different organs each organ very complex and with a different task and role for the body. Surely An "Intelligent programmer,designer" has designed/created such a complex system?
And how do I know that? How do you know that "surely" it had to be an intelligent designer?
I understand that it is complex. What I don't get is how you look at something that complex and just conclude that it had to have an intelligent designer. We have an understanding of how that process takes place. However, let us ignore that scientific knowledge for now. I am interested in knowing why you say that "surely an intelligent designer did it"?
Also, can we please move this discussion to the science section? We can discuss topic wise. Take our time to learn about each others view points and investigate deeper? We are both trying to get at the truth here, it'll do us no good to start talking about several complicated topics at once. Do you agree?
My belief in Qoran,and you may already know this,is my own research and checking of the "interlock" system . Impossible for any human to compose a book and Mathematically seal it . To be aware of the count of each letter,word sentence and chapter and place them exactly with mathematical accuracy to produce a full book that is both a literacy and numeracy masterpiece.
That is something I, when I was a Muslim, along with many other believers of the Qur'an, rejected as nothing more than numerology kinda thing. Sorry that I can't think of a better word for it right now. However, we can discuss this "interlocking miracle" in another thread perhaps. I am open to that.
I read your posts to "reel" and others. There are many issues and assumptions from both sides with defining many things including a "believer", a "disbeliever"...etc That is where there are differences and misunderstandings.
For example not every religious person is a "believer"? Like not every Atheist is a "disbeliever"? etcI am using the most literal dictionary definition of the word. Since the topic here is Atheism, a believer then would be one who believes in the existence of a God, in this context Allah the creator, and a disbeliever would be one who doesn't believe in the existence of that God. I understand that you can have your own definition of the word but I am not using that. So please read my exchanges with others with this in mind that I mean the things I said above when I am talking about a believer or a disbeliever.
P.S. I think the exchange with Reel has come to an end. What is the point in writing so much and going into so much detail about things when the person clearly baseless-ly accuses entire groups of people branding them as criminals and the only criminals on earth. Imagine how you'd feel if I was continuously trying to tell you here about how you ought to be a terrorist if you are a Muslim. Imagine how infuriating it would be if I even refused to provide evidence that all Muslims are terrorists and started suggesting that all the other non-Muslim terrorists are liars who are actually Muslims pretending to be non-Muslims! If someone joined this forum today and went around demonized Muslims saying things like that, I'm pretty sure they'd have a difficult time with the moderators.
I don't know if you have read my exchanges with her. The irony here lies in the fact that her behavior testifies to the fact that belief in a God alone doesn't make one behave better than an atheist. If that was the case, I, Student of Allah the atheist would be the one demonizing all Muslims here, not reel, the God believer.
Peace
----------- Student of Allah -
Peace Student Of Allah.
I agree with you. Discussing Science,existence of GOD and numeracy of Qoran are off topic here.
I will make this post my last one in this thread. But will have conversations with you elsewhere if requested.
Now i will clarify for you what I mean by a "believer" according to Qoran
If I say I believe in GOD I also have to believe GOD. There is a difference. If I only believe in GOD but not believe HIM, then I will not take HIS words/instructions seriously. Therefore it is a "lip service" from my part, a lie,many do that in the "religions".
So according to Qoran you have to believe in GOD and believe GOD. Both have to go hand in hand . Only then, you will be unlikely to "rape" and "murder" if you are a believer. Of course there are other "humans" who are not believers but do not "rape" and "murder".
I was giving you an example of a believer in GOD.
In the same manner, Atheist may be disbelieving the human who says there is a GOD. As far as Qoran is concerned that is not a "disbeliever".
A disbeliever according to Qoran is the one who knows/acknowledge there is a GOD,but ignores HIS words/instruction and acts against them,i.e opposes/disbelieves GOD s words .GOD bless you.
Peace. -
P.S. I think the exchange with Reel has come to an end. What is the point in writing so much and going into so much detail about things when the person clearly baseless-ly accuses entire groups of people branding them as criminals and the only criminals on earth.
I thought you were the one who claimed that majority in the jail are from religions....and I did not even accuse you of thinking that religious folks are all criminals. You even said that without Quran, I would be a child molester. You have also used an obscene word throughout your post.
I think the exchange with Reel has come to an end. What is the point in writing so much and going into so much detail about things when the person clearly baseless-ly accuses entire groups of people branding them as criminals and the only criminals on earth. Imagine how you'd feel if I was continuously trying to tell you here about how you ought to be a terrorist if you are a Muslim. Imagine how infuriating it would be if I even refused to provide evidence that all Muslims are terrorists and started suggesting that all the other non-Muslim terrorists are liars who are actually Muslims pretending to be non-Muslims! If someone joined this forum today and went around demonized Muslims saying things like that, I'm pretty sure they'd have a difficult time with the moderators.
A little bizarre. You don't want to discuss how protocols of learned elders of zion has on the society...mainly the two paragraphs I posted earlier? What about the test about "Oh God, I wish you would kill my parents?" Now that we were going somewhere about the existence of God I feel bad that you wish to end it. But I'll let you go because from your last post it is clear how it would go. Once again, I encourage you to call the mods. Please please. By the way, we are used to being demonized here. It did not make me feel bad because I have truth by my side.