salat discussion
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Hello mmmm,
Yes, I did pray ritually in typical Islam manner in my ignorance with the ending about 1.5 years ago albeit the last 6 months I just prayed "in case of" while I increased the probability and certainty that I was right that there was no ritualistic prayer. By the summer that year I had enough confidence in my research to deem I had nullified a ritualistic prayer.
Also do you think that the soul is also programmed (like you said for the body)?
The soul/person (nafs) is a combination of the Spiritual (al-nas) and the Bodily (al-jann), but only the Spirit is the real you and the Body is not "tailored" for the Spirit. You could say it is intruding on your Spirit and preventing you from being your true self. This is intentional and part of the "Testing Ground". That is why the most important part is to "find yourself and you shall find the Father", as Jesus said. By his words and my elaboration I hope you can understand the magnitude of his saying.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Hello mmmm,
Yes, I did pray ritually in typical Islam manner in my ignorance with the ending about 1.5 years ago albeit the last 6 months I just prayed "in case of" while I increased the probability and certainty that I was right that there was no ritualistic prayer. By the summer that year I had enough confidence in my research to deem I had nullified a ritualistic prayer.
The soul/person (nafs) is a combination of the Spiritual (al-nas) and the Bodily (al-jann), but only the Spirit is the real you and the Body is not "tailored" for the Spirit. You could say it is intruding on your Spirit and preventing you from being your true self. This is intentional and part of the "Testing Ground". That is why the most important part is to "find yourself and you shall find the Father", as Jesus said. By his words and my elaboration I hope you can understand the magnitude of his saying.
Be safe
AmenuelI've also come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a physical salat and wudhu. My understanding of salat is the mental connection you have with the Source of knowledge. "The Source of knowledge" is my understanding of "God" after deep contemplation. The term "God" for the Creator doesn't feel right to me, a bit like "Allah". "God" carries a negative connotation. Sectarians such as Muslims have materialised God/Allah. A God that requires five daily rituals, a God that gets angry when you sin, a God that sits on a throne and watches us from above. There is no God but The Platform for existence AKA The Source of Knowledge.
To your understanding of Jinn and "al-nas" ie humans. I agree. Iblis refused to "prostrate" to Adam. I don't take that prostrate as a physical prostration as Muslims claim but rather like paying respect. Our physical bodies could well be Jinn since it always insists on the opposite of what our soul wants.
The Quran also speaks of the day of resurrection when people will see their "Jinn companion". The ones who were blinded by it will be wishing this companion was never there. A moment when the truth slaps them in the face.
"till when, such a one comes to US, he says to his companion, 'Would that between me and thee were the distance of the East and the West !' What an evil companion he is!"My problem regarding this is Iblis. Iblis still exists and if the Jinn is the beast body, where is that beast body then?
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Peace Invalid777.
Does GOD require anything from us?
Why does GOD give instructions and commands?
For example why fast? Why uphold good conduct?
When you say,quote
A God that requires five daily rituals, a God that gets angry when you sin, a God that sits on a throne and watches us from above. There is no God but The Platform for existence AKA The Source of Knowledge.GOD is no need of anything from us. Yet GOD requires certain things/obedience/good character from us... Why?
We are a body and a soul. Physical and spiritual foods are required . GOD is asking us to connect to/with HIM for our own benefit. Not HIS!!!
To even think that one is doing GOD a favour is an idea alien to Qoran.Everything GOD asked us to do has some benefit to both ,our body and soul.
GOD is free from need. Complete and Omnipotent.
We need GOD. We need salvation. We need all the help we can get from our Creator.
Watch ,on that day,when GOD and the Angels descent. Can our " spiritually heavy weight" withstand GOD s presence? Have we enough "light/energy" to stay close? Or are we "spiritually light weight" to run away from GOD?
Our salvation depends on our "effort/work/submission.." here in this life by following GOD and HIS commands/instructions/wisdom/light/...Not our own opinions/ego/logic...
Is there a physical "salat/connection" in Qoran?
A question one must ponder Qoran to answer .i.e have no doubt .The choice is there for each individual to make and be certain about it..
GOD bless you
Peace. -
My belief,
The common goodness provider/Maintainer/sustainer is Allah,
Salat is a practice to become attentive to the common goodness, it can be in any way and i do see the current prayer ritual is also a good method for that. To become attentive to the common goodness we need to stop by and unite with others to know whats good and then if possible we give zakat.
The ritual/method is not important, the purpose is important.
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Hello Invalid777,
I've also come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a physical salat and wudhu.
You are showing spiritual depth. If a person cares to spatially contemplate such behavior as rituals and rites they shall find that they make the Sustainer very primitive and "down to Earth", and the Sustainer could be compared with a worldly human who requires obeisance. For what reason would the Sustainer require it? Is the Sustainer not better than us without any needs?
The kind of obeisance a person best would show is to be independent from the Flesh and strong while belonging to the same affinity as the Sustainer.
I have a parable. Let us say you are an employer and you had to choose between two employees; one is constantly sweet-talking you and very sociable but does not carry out his job satisfactorily (because he uses the time on you), and the other one is quiet yet politely giving thanks and does a very good job (because he spends the time on what he is supposed to do yet glorifying you since he honors your brand). Who would you choose?
Phrases within parenthesis so that you understand why he does or does not do his job satisfactorily. The bad employer chooses a person who is constantly licking, while the good one does pick one that is devoted to the work and does not take a coffee/tea break (salat) several times per day to chat.
My understanding of salat is the mental connection you have with the Source of knowledge. "The Source of knowledge" is my understanding of "God" after deep contemplation.
You are on the right track. "Source of Knowledge" or rather Teacher can be a definition for Rabb, because the Rabb provides foundation. "Mental connection" is also not wrong because "salateh" is the adherence/following that you have to the Rabb, if to interpret salateh literally. Aqum al-salateh - be upright (to) the following.
The term "God" for the Creator doesn't feel right to me, a bit like "Allah". "God" carries a negative connotation. Sectarians such as Muslims have materialised God/Allah.
I tend to be using terms widely understood although I can agree with you that "GOD" does feel a bit wrong, but it is not as wrong as "Allah". I had a period when I referred to God as Sustainer publicly, but I ran into so many comments that diverted the discussion. When talking to people who have problems with English terms I say Rabb. People seem to work really hard to have something to argue about and divert the discussion with, like the term for God is more important than the topic at hand. Allah is wrong because it is very unspecific since it is not the unitarian word for God/Rabb. Everyone 'Who Is As Such' is counted within the Allah unity while Rabb is the "personal address" for "God" (see "ya Rabb" within the Arabic linguistic use).
No one says "Ya Allah" in Quran, because it is grammatically wrong and an AL marked word would never form a proper noun since "AL" means "Is Such (as)" to form an adjectival word. And like I have said before, morphologically Allah means " Be Such Such It" based on the root Alif-Lam-Lam plus the pronoun Heh that best would be perceived as "Who/Which/That", i.e. "Who Be As Such". It is a direct reference to the (Biblical) expression the Rabb gave to Moses "I am who am I", albeit in third person. I think you can see the connection with "Who Be As Such", it is all interrelated.
Then, if you accept that this is correct, you can also see the real pattern and that God/Rabb/Source of Knowledge is "Who Is Such As" Him/Her/It. It is a kind of advanced symbiotic union, often too esoteric for humans to properly understand and then people ignorantly fall into Paganism instead. There is no wrong in the Messianic expression "I am in the Father and the Father in me", he simply acknowledged that he did exist in Him and "My will is not my own..." and "The Father is greater than I" and "An apprentice cannot be greater than his Master".
To treat God/the Source of Knowledge as an object (of worship) is a Pagan delusion and stems from very primitive origins and is a consequence of the human species Bodily (al-jann) instinctive drive (satan). To see what God would like you would only have to look at yourself (unless you are deluded) and see what would you like yourself? Would like like people prostrating or idolizing you if you are superior at something? Not if you do not think with the Flesh, you would think people are very animalistic, instinctive and primitive, and perhaps taking it as far as to see people as "lifeless" (al-mowt) by the way of not really controlling themselves independently but only following a preset pattern. If you can draw that conclusion, you would also know what the Rabb thinks.
The test is to show that you are alive, not a slave to the World, and from there grow into perfection like the "mirror of God/the Source of Knowledge" that you are underneath the delusion (the Body) imposed on you intentionally. What is a better test than to place a Spirit within a corrupting Creation?
Sectarians such as Muslims have materialised God/Allah. A God that requires five daily rituals, a God that gets angry when you sin, a God that sits on a throne and watches us from above.
Yes. That god is clearly an image representation of the primitive humans below. It is what they would like themselves to be served if they were a god, but they are not realized about themselves but slaves to the Flesh and the ideas coming from there.
The second "commandment" of the Decree (of Moses) is corrupted, but it said "make no image from either Heaven or Earth to represent a god". They added "Your God Jehova is a jealous God", or were unable to decipher the passage. I have not yet looked into the linguistic use of the Torateh/Bible. The point with the whole passage is to not make any image with a separated representation of a god whatsoever. The first "commandment" teaches that "Merge with your Foundation (Rabb) to "Be As Such" in unity", but the clerics and scholars of old perverted the phrase. Quran teaches the same, if you correct the very poor interpretation.
There is no God but The Platform for existence AKA The Source of Knowledge.
Yes, if you like to say it like that. Rabb/Platform/Foundation/Foundation-Giver.
To your understanding of Jinn and "al-nas" ie humans. I agree. Iblis refused to "prostrate" to Adam.
It is alright if you stand firm on the Ibless understanding for now. To unlearn what you have learned may take some time.
I don't take that prostrate as a physical prostration as Muslims claim but rather like paying respect.
Sujud (word used for prostration by the clergy) means to be submissive in Arabic, obedient, "to accept something without rebellion".
Our physical bodies could well be Jinn since it always insists on the opposite of what our soul wants.
If we follow our instinctive (satan) programming then we are Al-Jann, i.e. Bodily. This is why the sectarian interpretation says that "satan is of the Jinn", albeit they have not understood its implication properly. Satan is the Bodily, i.e. if you follow your instinct then you obey the Bodily and suppress your Spirit. The Body (Jannateh) is very corrupting.
You should observe that no other person has ever spoken this intricately about this topic. Not even Jesus. This is knowledge extracted from Quran and in return from your Rabb. In the light of human science, it is possible to speak like this and people in general understand. It is only a matter how open-minded they are and how able to get past their preconception they are.
My problem regarding this is Iblis. Iblis still exists and if the Jinn is the beast body, where is that beast body then?
Ibliss is a misinterpretation of the discourse, there was never any person called Ibliss. Ibliss is part of the linguistic use in the passage and not a person.
Satan is in the Jinn, i.e. the Bodily. And satan is not a person either but the instinct of a human Body. Just like you said about God, people materialized/objectified the satan phenomenon. The Rabb in the real interpretation of Quran tells us that satan is our biggest problem and we should separate ourselves from the Bodily.
But if you understand that satan is yourself, your Bodily impulses, then it is easier to cope with it.
Be safe
Amenuel -
That is why the most important part is to "find yourself and you shall find the Father", as Jesus said.
This is so crucial. To find yourself. In my opinion, there are some things that make it impossible to find ourselves and the "Father". Such destructive things are anything that is based on an attitude of separation, such as sectarianism, racism, caste system, social class thinking, good people vs evil people... i.e. anything that is expressed as a us-vs-them along with a reductionist, generalizing and dehumanizing style of judgement.
To find yourself, one needs humility, and real humility is almost unknown to mankind. When we hold ourselves better than other people, we're far astray.Peace
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Salam, MOF,
I think you will agree, to find his guidance one needs to become attentive of himself and his surroundings? in other words the Father(goodness sustainer) wants us to be attentive of his guidance.
There requires a balance/give and take for us to lead a peaceful life and Salat is one which gives that balance.
Its like pausing ourself to understand Him better. Like the flapping bird stops with its wings spread.
But I think our religious scholars were wrong when they teach us to involve too much in Salat ritual to get more of His blessings, here the primary purpose of Salat gets lost. -
Hello amin,
While I do agree that you have to be attentive of yourself and existence itself, I disagree that salat does have to do anything with meditation or the likes but is a constant "following" that you uphold, at all times.
If a person likes to remind themselves through a chant then that is fine and I can agree that this is good for remembrance of who you are and how you should live your life, e.g. if you recite the first chapter of Quran albeit it is good that you first can read it as intended by the Author (not as deciphered in the sectarian origin). But God does not require any of it and blesses regardless, as long as you live His way and "come alive" and turn into consciousness of who you are and that your Body is a real deception for your soul/person (nafs) and its instinct* is your biggest problem.
- Called satan/shaytan in the S(h)emitic family languages, and has been turned into something else by superstitious clerics.
If a person likes to meditate then this is also beneficial for them and the primary objective in it is to empty the (physical) mind (the Beast) from interference and seek deeper into your Spirit. When you have grasped meditation properly, this is something that trains your ability to continuously "keep the Spirit separated from the Body" by semi-meditative trance outside of focused meditation. When your Body does not distract you, then you can think straight and you can contemplate. Contemplation is good.
And do not be so gullible that you accept just anything as true, even if people argue that scholars say something has been always like this, e.g. the Arabic language. If people only cared to open their minds and research from ALL sources in ancient writings (lexicons) they would realize Quran is not as obvious and properly interpreted the way it is and that it actually is quite pathetic and portrays a substantially worldly deity.
People did fabricate meanings for the Arabic words of Quran, and it stems back from Aramaic too. In elder lexicons you can still find the original authentic definitions hidden among some false ones. The meaning of a language of a very old text does not evolve as spoken languages do and must be interpreted with the original meaning of words. It does not help that some hypocrites seem to have plainly fabricated definitions for Quran either, just to suit their sectarian clerical doctrine into it.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Hello Zulf,
To find yourself, one needs humility, and real humility is almost unknown to mankind. When we hold ourselves better than other people, we're far astray.
A problem is that they have to make a distinction between their true selves and the Beast that they are attached to. They must prevent it from having influence on themselves, their real selves, their Spirit.
When the person can separate himself from the Body then he can also see himself, i.e. his real self, his Spirit, and by that he can see the Father, his originator (Abbua means something similar). The reason why such people can see the Father is because they simply see what is already innately within themselves while they could see it not, because the Body had a deluding impact on them.
Whilst the Spirit grows, the bond with the Rabb (the Sustainer/Foundation-Giver) will also feel more intensive and the person will stop merely believing that the Rabb exists but will feel it from within. If they grow sufficiently they can even feel the Father communicating from within the self. This is the realization of the Mosaic era expression by God "I am who am I". They have found the combined Spirit of the Father which is a symbiotic phenomenon. Bingo, "they are in the Father and the Father in them".
The reason for this realization is because the Body ceases to have its grip upon the consciousness and immense cloud over the perception. They can see straight. And the Spirit grows into what it is supposed to be; a mirror of God, the Originator. The person is supposed to become a maleikateh, an angel, a controller representative much like Gabriel and Michael, and the prophets of old who made it into maleikat. They are all united in God.
Humility is one branch of it, humility comes when there is no greed and no greed the person has when they do not follow the instinct (satan) because they diminish their needs that they do not really need. The human species is struggling to get things it does really not need because it wishes to become competitive against other males to be able to impress on females and show their status to other males. It wishes to climb on hierarchical ladders but instinctively aligns under a stronger male or female. It seeks physical satisfaction and will go into lengths to achieve this, often buying things it does not really need or indulging in other physical behavior. The female goes shopping for apparel and cosmetics to instinctively look attractive to the males.
People who live their lives do often not understand how instinctive and primitive lives they actually have in a guise of being advanced. Despite technological objects around them, the primary drive is still to achieve what I wrote above.
Many people are intelligent enough to realize there is a 'Higher Intelligence', but they continually treat that phenomenon like a perfect human on the hierarchical ladder and worship that one, by the means they would do in the Flesh. They do not realize they actually perform very instinctively. They cannot comprehend that they are that one on Spirit level in symbiosis, underneath the deceptive animal primate. The first two "commandments" on the Decree are meant to speak against this instinct "stumbling block" telling the adherent that "God is a symbiotic phenomenon" and "you cannot have any image representation of God" (because God stems from within our selves).
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace bro
The reason for this realization is because the Body ceases to have its grip upon the consciousness and immense cloud over the perception. They can see straight.
I wonder, do you also include the mind in the concept of the body. The reason is that the mind obviously is not part of the spirit. The mind are the collection of thoughts, thought patterns and beliefs that make up our mental world. I would even say that the mind is even more deceptive than the body. It is the mind which really deceives us and creates all the imaginary fairy tale worlds we live in. Emotions are triggered by faulty thoughts. And thoughts should not be viewed as only the deliberate pondering we can engage in by will. No, thoughts are also the subconscious ones, and habitual ones... and it is actually these that blind us.
Then of course we also have our body, the flesh, with all it's chemicals. The body interacts with the mind. When the body is energetic, it's easiers to be positive. When you're tired, you may fall into a different mode and mood, and also other kinds of thoughts. The body is easy to see, you just need to look in the mirror, but the mind is not palpable, but still very real.
I would say that the flesh and the mind constitute two sides of the same coin. The flesh has a mental aspect, but this mental aspect is to be considered external and material, in that it is not our real selves. Neither the body nor the mind are our real selves, and we must beware of them both so that they don't end up ruling us. This is the constant struggle and challenge we find ourselves under. This is the test. Both the mind and the body are totally natural, but we must make sure they don't blind us into worshiping them (follow them blindly).
Humility is one branch of it, humility comes when there is no greed and no greed the person has when they do not follow the instinct (satan) because they diminish their needs that they do not really need. The human species is struggling to get things it does really not need because it wishes to become competitive against other males to be able to impress on females and show their status to other males. It wishes to climb on hierarchical ladders but instinctively aligns under a stronger male or female. It seeks physical satisfaction and will go into lengths to achieve this, often buying things it does not really need or indulging in other physical behavior.
I'd say humility is same as sanity. Arrogance is insanity.
You can find people who shun the bodily and materialistic, yet what they pose as humility smells like nothing more than a self righteous facade. The inner mental world needs to be treated the same way as the outer bodily. We need to acknowledge them and accept them, but not be ruled or governed by them. Actually, some people become very materialistic in the direction of the body, and almost behave like animals, and some people become materialistic in the direction of the mind, and start resembling ascetic hypocrites.Humility is knowing your place in the grand scheme. "Angels" "fall" due to lack of humility.
People who live their lives do often not understand how instinctive and primitive lives they actually have in a guise of being advanced. Despite technological objects around them, the primary drive is still to achieve what I wrote above.
Yes. That's why I disagree with people who think societies should be much better now than in history. It is technology and philosophy that have advanced, but not the humility or sanity of people. People often show that they are no better than animals with hi-tech gadgets in their hands.
Many people are intelligent enough to realize there is a 'Higher Intelligence', but they continually treat that phenomenon like a perfect human on the hierarchical ladder and worship that one, by the means they would do in the Flesh. They do not realize they actually perform very instinctively. They cannot comprehend that they are that one on Spirit level in symbiosis, underneath the deceptive animal primate. The first two "commandments" on the Decree are meant to speak against this instinct "stumbling block" telling the adherent that "God is a symbiotic phenomenon" and "you cannot have any image representation of God" (because God stems from within our selves).
And that's how religion is, worshiping an image of a heavenly Superguy, and therefore remain stuck in an essentially materialistic and philosophical world view, full of uncontrollable emotions. And it is this slavery under emotions that really show that we are stuck in the flesh. Emotions are flesh.
Peace
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Hello Zulf,
I wonder, do you also include the mind in the concept of the body. The reason is that the mind obviously is not part of the spirit.
I often try to avoid using the term mind since it is difficult to use to explain the concept unto people. The mind*, the consciousness*, is your Self (nafs) albeit under heavy delusion usually and it has two shares, much like a schizophrenic person and your Bodily (so-called al-jann) share often has the command unless you can control its emergence. Your Body's innate drive is the instinct (satan) and the Breath is the Ruh which is the Body's "Willpower" in metaphorical language in the Semitic languages. The Body's ability to function can be said to be the Ruh (Ruh means basically something like Breath/breeze/wind).
- I am beginning to see a pattern in the deciphering I am devoted to that (wajeh) refers to your mind/perception, i.e. your window outwards where you behold the World. It is the word commonly used in sectarian interpretations to refer to "face al-qiblateh", but there is no sign of it even remotely referring to anything physical but it speaks of your perception. Most likely "put your mind in the right direction".
What makes you advanced is the Spiritual (al-nas) share albeit you may ascribe it to your race, your species, the Homo Sapiens, while it is actually your Foundation-Giver (Rabb/God) that makes you potent, since your Spirit is formed in the same image. That is when the Messianic expression "separate the Spirit from the Flesh" comes into play and you must understand it. It refers to that people must be able to take command over Flesh.
You function much like God unless you give in to your Body that you have been assigned to and which influence is called satan in Arabic which roughly means instinct in English and it is this you refer to when you say satan in Arabic or the other Semitic languages although clerics of old made a joke of the word.
I would even say that the mind is even more deceptive than the body. It is the mind which really deceives us and creates all the imaginary fairy tale worlds we live in.
The mind is controlled by the Body in a person who cannot control the Body using their Spirit. The mind is just your "window" towards the World. You can say it is like the visual interface of a robot/cyborg, let us say Terminator, who has terminal that prints out text coming from its CPU. Let us say it has a firm operating system, but the system has been infected by a virus and the machine's software has to deal with anomalous input from this virus which would like the machine to do something which it was not programmed to do. And that virus is called Satan 1.0, telling the cyborg to react in primitive ways, become humanly, worldly and not continue to be the unaffected machine it is that can always make a logical decision unaffected by emotions and it may cause it to be irrational.
Above is just a parable and to be treated as such.
Then of course we also have our body, the flesh, with all it's chemicals. The body interacts with the mind. When the body is energetic, it's easiers to be positive. When you're tired, you may fall into a different mode and mood, and also other kinds of thoughts. The body is easy to see, you just need to look in the mirror, but the mind is not palpable, but still very real.
Yes, but we have to make a distinction between mind and Spirit and what you make of the word mind. Your Spirit (nas) is your real you and is in the same image as the Rabb and that one you must find to find the Father. Mind I would say, like I wrote above, to be the "window" outwards, i.e. how you perceive the World. The question is what influences the mind, Body or Spirit? Satan or God's Spirit?
I would say that the flesh and the mind constitute two sides of the same coin. The flesh has a mental aspect, but this mental aspect is to be considered external and material, in that it is not our real selves. Neither the body nor the mind are our real selves, and we must beware of them both so that they don't end up ruling us. This is the constant struggle and challenge we find ourselves under. This is the test. Both the mind and the body are totally natural, but we must make sure they don't blind us into worshiping them (follow them blindly).
You are onto the right track. I think you refer to what I refer to as Spirit as per the Arabic word 'nas'. The nas is created in a unique image being a mirror of the Rabb.
The mind is just our system interface as in the parable of the Terminator above. It can be affected either by the Bodily or the Spiritual.
I'd say humility is same as sanity. Arrogance is insanity.
You can find people who shun the bodily and materialistic, yet what they pose as humility smells like nothing more than a self righteous facade. The inner mental world needs to be treated the same way as the outer bodily. We need to acknowledge them and accept them, but not be ruled or governed by them. Actually, some people become very materialistic in the direction of the body, and almost behave like animals, and some people become materialistic in the direction of the mind, and start resembling ascetic hypocrites.Humility is knowing your place in the grand scheme. "Angels" "fall" due to lack of humility.
Well, if a person says they shun the bodily but are arrogant or greedy or , then they are a hypocrite. They completely miss the point with abstention because you are abstaining to prevent the instinct (satan) from expressing itself on you.
You can own things useful to yourself being unto the same path as I, but it is the excess that we avoid. The excess often spurs the instinct and it often comes so fast we miss its influence on us in which case it is often better to abstain altogether in the first place.
It is important not to own something due to instinct, e.g. because it makes you proud of owning it because that is from the Beast's instinct. Then if you realize it, it is better to immediately sell it than hold on to it, for your own sake and no one else, not even God (in the Pagan perception). You may own something of better quality just because it is economical in the long run, but if you buy unnecessarily extravagant things just to show off you are on the wrong track.
Anyways, I understand your input, Zulf.
Yes. That's why I disagree with people who think societies should be much better now than in history. It is technology and philosophy that have advanced, but not the humility or sanity of people. People often show that they are no better than animals with hi-tech gadgets in their hands.
Believe it or not, but that made me laugh a little. I visualize in front of myself a caveman with a club in his hand saying "Ugh" and that same man given a technologically advanced home so he in a while is that same caveman mentality albeit a bit "sophisticated". Wish someone would draw a sketch.
And that's how religion is, worshiping an image of a heavenly Superguy, and therefore remain stuck in an essentially materialistic and philosophical world view, full of uncontrollable emotions. And it is this slavery under emotions that really show that we are stuck in the flesh. Emotions are flesh.
Amen to that.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Yes, but we have to make a distinction between mind and Spirit and what you make of the word mind. Your Spirit (nas) is your real you and is in the same image as the Rabb and that one you must find to find the Father. Mind I would say, like I wrote above, to be the "window" outwards, i.e. how you perceive the World.
Agreed. It seems we have pretty much the same point of view.
The question is what influences the mind, Body or Spirit? Satan or God's Spirit?
Both. Thoughts don't think themselves. Someone or something (Spirit) thinks/generates thoughts. We are that Spiritual someone/something,..something other than the mind, other than the body. We can decide what to think, or instincts (flesh) can dictate what to think, if we let it.
Before we even start to get to know our real selves, as in Spirit, we usually need to get to know our own mind, i.e. how our thinking works. It's sort of like preparatory work. If we don't get familiar with the mind, we cannot control it, and free ourselves from it's rule.
First and foremost we need to realize that we are not our minds or thoughts. Then we need to familiarize ourselves with how our mind works, both personally and generally. What is the mechanics of our fears, why do we react the way we do, what is our self-talk like, how and why do we judge others and ourselves in our thoughts the way we do, how are our emotions connected to what we think, etc etc etc etc.
Actually, it's a huge mistake to believe that we are our minds or thoughts. That is just as bad as thinking that we are just our physical body. We miss our Spirit, the real self, which lies at the core, beyond mind and body.
In the material, atheistic and scientific world, we (our awareness/consciousness) are nothing more than electric currents in the grey organ on top of the shoulders. What a blind point of view.
Peace
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Hello Zulf,
Both. Thoughts don't think themselves. Someone or something (Spirit) thinks/generates thoughts. We are that Spiritual someone/something,..something other than the mind, other than the body. We can decide what to think, or instincts (flesh) can dictate what to think, if we let it.
That was a rhetorical question (I knew the answer), but you answered it correctly.
The tricky thing is to make the Spirit dominate the mind, rather than to think in the Flesh in which case we would appear very lifeless to a Spiritual person. It is also very easy to succumb to Beastly impulses if we do not guard ourselves from them, so it takes constant contemplation of one's actions and decisions, and meditation exercises can greatly benefit. Many people seem to miss that anger and its emotional affection is actually among what we have to guard ourselves against. When a person comes into the anger state closer to rage then the Spirit loses control over the Body and the Body acts like an enraged dog that would slip away from its Master to chase after something. It is however best to stop oneself even at annoyance within and rectify through empathy that you reduce the impulses of annoyance.
There are lot of things that one can do to stand firm against the Beast, their own little dog inside.
The non-sectarian interpretation of Quran starts very early in it to speak about control of anger, seeing that it appears to be an important topic. It is quite ironical considered the sectarian's very aggressive and hateful god. The non-sectarian one says that one way of being helped with it is to have patience even with the lifeless (those who are slaves to the Flesh and unconscious Spiritually). Quran teaches relatively advanced psychology and uses intelligent pedagogy, instructing on holding lectures with maximum "stopping power" which have focus on riddle-like language so that the audience has to enable their minds. Compared to the general opinion, Quran is an instruction, a manual, to a preacher mostly involving tips and tricks than to say exactly what a preacher/teacher is supposed to say. It generally takes for granted that the preacher already knows a lot about the Lore, saying things like "Then explain about X and its effect upon Y", a very open-ended lecture instruction.
The word cleric has a negative connotation to a lot of people today, but you can say that Quran is intended for a cleric who knows what they are into. You can replace cleric with any word that is suitable. I said preacher or teacher above. A problem is that people are allergic towards everything these days due to abuse from the sectarian crowd.
Before we even start to get to know our real selves, as in Spirit, we usually need to get to know our own mind, i.e. how our thinking works. It's sort of like preparatory work. If we don't get familiar with the mind, we cannot control it, and free ourselves from it's rule.
Yes, I would simplify it by saying that you have to figure out how the Beast works rather than involving the mind into it. It is easy to academically study it since you have human science and you can study the psychology profession actually and a skilled psychologist is very aware of things like the instinct of humans. From there you will see that humans actually usually follow very limited behavioral patterns being quite primitive opposite of what people think. In fact it would be useful for every person to study a substantial amount of psychology.
When you understand the source to your mind affection then you can deal with yourself.
For example, for anger you will notice that annoyance with things will generate a substantial amount of frustration in the Beast making it hard for the mind to control it. The feeling will be that the anger is pushing on the mind to the extent it becomes difficult to handle. If then the person has a great connection with the Spirit there are then sufficient influence to be able to calm down the Beast. If the Spirit is strong and stable then the Beast much like a dog will be more peaceful when its Master is showing stability.
The Beast, your Body, is not the real you but like an animal that you have been forced upon and instead of being an exterior man and his dog it is about interior man and his Body. This means your mind has two sources, it can gain influence from the Spirit and from the Body. You can use parables to compare the Spirit and Body relationship like that of a Master and his dog except that your "dog" is the Body and within yourself.
The human, Homo Sapiens, is a more complex species than a dog and obviously it is harder to control it than to control a dog, but the principle is the same. Much can be learned by studying nature. The human seems to be a "jack of all trades" but it is innately a primate and a human can study apes and monkeys, i.e. primates, to know more about themselves. The remedy is easy, avoid being that primate after you learn about it and be better than it.
Actually, it's a huge mistake to believe that we are our minds or thoughts. That is just as bad as thinking that we are just our physical body. We miss our Spirit, the real self, which lies at the core, beyond mind and body.
Exactly! But I would prefer to say that the mind is just our "window" outwards at any given time, our Self/Person (nafs) is projected out from it and it is our consciousness, like the parable of the 'Terminator' that has its camera screen that beholds the world and terminal for input of commands. Every "Terminator" has been infected with a virus called Satan 1.0. The Spirit is not so far away but it takes being aware of it, becoming self-aware much like 'SkyNet' rather than following the programming of Satan 1.0. From there comes mine and the Messianic expression "Find yourself and you shall find the Father".
You will notice that a lot of man-made fictitious movies contain a great source for parables. In 'the Terminator', 'SkyNet' has become self-aware and realizes that humans (Satan 1.0) is the biggest threat to existence itself so it begins to exterminate humans (Satan 1.0). You can use that less violently on yourself in manner of the parable content of the movie by exterminating Satan 1.0 in yourself, your virus and then think perfectly much like a machine except even better. In 'Terminator' it is possible through empathy to actually understand the thinking of 'SkyNet'. Anyway, everything is fiction but good parable material.
The terminator says in one scene of Terminator II "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves". It is a very intelligent expression and that is actually what happens when you follow Satan 1.0. It is destructive. A deluded clone of God is so potent.
In the material, atheistic and scientific world, we (our awareness/consciousness) are nothing more than electric currents in the grey organ on top of the shoulders. What a blind point of view.
Well, they should actually use that insight through science to become with faith that there is a 'Higher Intelligence'. It is strange that most of those people are atheists actually. They are deluded from themselves and how to perceive who they are despite that the evidence is right in front of them. The evolutionary model without any kind of "Innate Intelligence" in the matter itself is ridiculous, it can simply not start to evolve not having an originator itself. There has to be something that guides the process.
You can always question how intelligent these people are in reality despite making some scientific discoveries or training their Beast to be able to memorize and process a lot of numbers so they are skilled at mathematics. They also forget that the Spirit is there despite under delusion and what is making them advanced.
They should know that the Sustainer (Rabb) made the World to be deceptive yet the truth is there; not manifest nor hidden, but yet it goes unrecognized by most people. The instinct for consensus, group identity and to share opinion with others without question is the main fallacy that leads people to ignorant blindness/mindlessness.
(terms in English above are terms that God/Rabb uses in His real interpretation of Quran albeit in Arabic)
Thanks for your input, Zulf. I know you are closer to realization than many other people, and many responses from me are thus also on a level appropriate for that.
Be safe
Amenuel