How to overcome the sin of lust/temptation
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I think & a good lead question would be
What has the approach/understanding of lust done to the women and men of Islam.
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Oppression- in many forms i.e., beatings, honor killings etc.,
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Negative psychological effects on both men and women.
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Male insecurity and female self-deception.
I don't understand, brother Hawk. confused
Would you kindly explain further?
Peace.
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Salaam hawk,
Peace Taro Hiroshi, I think you have reached the point of over intellectualizing.
4 m's gave you the perfect answerI think & a good lead question would be
What has the approach/understanding of lust done to the women and men of Islam.
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Oppression- in many forms i.e., beatings, honor killings etc.,
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Negative psychological effects on both men and women.
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Male insecurity and female self-deception.
not meant as an intrusion
peace
I know exactly what you mean, and I completely agree with you which is why I commented earlier that lust isn't a bad thing, it's how you deal with it that matters. It's one thing saying that lust is sinful and wanting to get rid of it, but the reality is it isn't as simple as that, and trying to suppress it and overtly giving into it gives rise to its own problems. I find it really interesting to observe the effects of this in Europe compared to other more conservative countries.
Personally, I think there are serious issues relating to sexual lust which are going on in regards to this surrounding gender politics all around the world, particularly misogyny, violence against women, the extreme objectification and sexualisation of women, and the role of men in society, etc.
Peace.
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I agree with es and Hawk.
Sex or lust of whatever looks more a a damnation than as a potential por the human species. As I said in one post, we seem to tend to make a sewer of it. Nowhere the Qur'n warrants that view. In fact in the first 21 ayas of An Nur points precisely to what I think Hawk and es have signalled.
In an nur, after setting limits to charges anonymous or not of zina, the Qur'an goes on to damn and condemn nd rebuke very, very stronglly those who carry gossip and slander concerning lust, particularly of women.
That precisely countrie which are populated by "muslims" should be prone to that kind of things is the worst indictement of their failure to obey God, worse, their failure to take the slightest interest in obeying God.
Of course not all people are like that in those countries and may people indeed are sick of it, but the dark minds seem to have got the upper hand.
We must struggle to make air circulate in our darkest rooms and dispel that sordid atmosphere that surrounds sex. Sexis the source of human life, in fact of the life of many species. That for humans it should be likened or linked to so much filth is really depressing and a measure of human failure.
Sorry for the apocalyptic tone.
Salaam
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Peace hawk99,
Peace Taro Hiroshi, I think you have reached the point of over intellectualizing.
It seems that you have misunderstood and/or misinterpreted my intentions or some of what I have written in this thread. The reason why I have shared a lot of information about the topic/subject of lust in this thread, is because I thought that some members in FM might find this information interesting and/or useful/helpful (especially those who are struggling with the sin of lust). If only you could understand.
If the truth be told, I don't think that sharing a lot of information about the topic/subject of lust is over intellectualizing. But if you disagree, then perhaps we should agree to disagree on this issue.
Let me share a quote from with you.
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly. When used inappropriately, it is a logical fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized.
Source
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Please ponder on the above-mentioned quote. The above-mentioned quote is just a reminder of something you already know but seem to have FORGOTTEN. No offense intended.
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Peace Man of Faith,
I have intended to keep on topic. And you can clearly see that.
You are right/correct. My bad.
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Peace good logic,
Even though God would never burden a soul beyond its mean (2362, 2278, 42, He emphasizes that the journey on the straight path isn't smooth or effortless.
We struggle to discipline ourselves to unconditionally obey God. It is often challenging to implement His teachings and portray His ethics.
God also assures us that He will bring us ease and contentment when we choose this striving path of being devout servants of Him alone. That includes overcoming temptations( lust included).I think that you are right/correct.
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Peace es and everyone,
I know exactly what you mean, and I completely agree with you which is why I commented earlier that lust isn't a bad thing, it's how you deal with it that matters.
I'd like to ask you a few questions.
How should one deal with lust?
What is the purpose/function of lust?
Do you believe that lust outside of marriage is a proper/good thing?
It's one thing saying that lust is sinful and wanting to get rid of it, but the reality is it isn't as simple as that, and trying to suppress it and overtly giving into it gives rise to its own problems. I find it really interesting to observe the effects of this in Europe compared to other more conservative countries.
I believe that getting rid of lust (on an individual level) is simple if one knows the root cause of lust. The same goes for weight loss (see this post). But each to their own, I guess.
It seems that there is a difference between getting rid of lust (outside of marriage) on an individual level, and suppressing lust on a collective level. It seems that if lust is suppressed on a collective level, it will give rise to its own problems. For example, gender segregation (which has no basis in the Quran), seems to have given rise to its own problems in some so-called islamic countries. By segregating men and women, the authorities of these countries don't seem to have achieved their aims/objectives. Because it seems that their rules/regulations have given rise to its own problems. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that getting rid of lust on an individual level, will give rise to its own problems. As far as I know, there is no evidence which suggests that getting rid of lust (outside of marriage) will lead to bad consequences.
Personally, I think there are serious issues relating to sexual lust which are going on in regards to this surrounding gender politics all around the world, particularly misogyny, violence against women, the extreme objectification and sexualisation of women, and the role of men in society, etc.
Good point. I hope that humankind will get rid of these problems/issues in the future.
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Peace huruf and everyone,
Sex or lust of whatever looks more a a damnation than as a potential por the human species. As I said in one post, we seem to tend to make a sewer of it. Nowhere the Qur'n warrants that view. In fact in the first 21 ayas of An Nur points precisely to what I think Hawk and es have signalled.
If the truth be told, I don't think that anyone in this forum rejects/condemns sex. However, it seems that there are many members in FM who believe that sexual relations outside of marriage is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran.
I have shared some of my thoughts and views/opinions regarding sexual relations outside of marriage in the post below.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376592#msg376592
I'd like to share a quote here.
In his book, Ziauddin Sardar has written a chapter about the quranic stance on "sex." From his interpretations of the Quranic verses regarding sex, it seems that he suggests that sex is allowed for pleasure (without a higher purpose). On the other hand, there are some muslim thinkers who claim that sex is only intended for procreation (a higher purpose). For example the pakistani Scholar Ghulam Ahmed Parwez, in his book "Family Planning", seems to suggest that sex is only intended for procreation.
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Peace As-Salaatayn,
Suratun-Naazi'3aat says in 7940-41
Verily those who fear standing before their lord and forbid themselves from lust/whim/desire paradise will be their home.
So, Taro, i really like what you have had to say. I believe that it confirms the Qur'an's message.
Thanks for sharing those verses.
May the God bless you.
Much respect,
Taro H.
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I don't understand, brother Hawk. confused
Would you kindly explain further?
Peace.
Peace JavaLatte
To control lust Men have instituted a system of oppression
that favors men and marginalizes women. Allah has warned us about
oppression and subjugation but we can't seem to do otherwise.Oppression has negative effects on the oppressed and the oppressor
The oppressed fear, conformity, self hate, self deception and hopelessness.
The oppressor tyranny, punishment, ownership, paternalism and control.Salaam hawk,
I find it really interesting to observe the effects of this in Europe compared to other more conservative countries.
Peace es
Could you please share what you observe in Europe as compared to other conservative countries.
Personally when I was in Europe I found the Europeans not as uptight about sex as in America.
Sex or lust of whatever looks more a a damnation than as a potential por the human species. As I said in one post, we seem to tend to make a sewer of it. Nowhere the Qur'n warrants that view. In fact in the first 21 ayas of An Nur points precisely to what I think Hawk and es have signalled.
In an nur, after setting limits to charges anonymous or not of zina, the Qur'an goes on to damn and condemn nd rebuke very, very stronglly those who carry gossip and slander concerning lust, particularly of women.
That precisely countrie which are populated by "muslims" should be prone to that kind of things is the worst indictement of their failure to obey God, worse, their failure to take the slightest interest in obeying God.
Of course not all people are like that in those countries and may people indeed are sick of it, but the dark minds seem to have got the upper hand.
We must struggle to make air circulate in our darkest rooms and dispel that sordid atmosphere that surrounds sex. Sex is the source of human life, in fact of the life of many species. That for humans it should be likened or linked to so much filth is really depressing and a measure of human failure.
Sorry for the apocalyptic tone.
Salaam
Peace huruf, well said, you tone is fine.
Peace hawk99,
It seems that you have misunderstood and/or misinterpreted my intentions or some of what I have written in this thread. The reason why I have shared a lot of information about the topic/subject of lust in this thread, is because I thought that some members in FM might find this information interesting and/or useful/helpful (especially those who are struggling with the sin of lust). If only you could understand.Peace Taro Hiroshi
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Could you comment on the rest of the post?
peace
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Peace hawk99,
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
You didn't hurt my feelings.
Could you comment on the rest of the post?
You seem to be right regarding the rest of your post.
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Peace everyone,
Today I visited a forum. And In that forum there was a thread were some forum members had discussed the topic of lust (in the past). In that thread some members had shared their thoughts regarding how to overcome the sin of lust. And one of the members claimed that getting married is the best solution to the problem of lust. But personally, I disagree with such a view. Because it seems that if someone struggles with the sin of lust and gets married, then/she will just bring that problem into his/her marriage. In my view, marriage is not a magical solution to the problem of lust. I think that if someone gets married in order to solve the problem of lust, then he/she is not treating the root cause of lust. Let me explain this through an example. If someone is overweight, and gets married, then he/she will still be overweight after he/she gets married. Marriage doesn't solve the problem of being overweight. And the same goes for the problem of lust, in my opinion.
In his book Climbing Mount Purgatorio, Hamza Yusuf suggests that a lack of spiritual purpose (commitment to the ethical life) leads to boredom, and boredom leads to the pursuit of pleasure (the aesthetical life), and the the pursuit of pleasure (the aesthetical life) leads to a "state of lust." Is Hamza Yusuf suggesting that a lack of purpose (commitment to the ethical life) is the root cause of lust? I think that this question is worth pondering upon.
I'd like to share a few quotes here.
"Whenever man falls prey to lust, he sinks to the lowest of the low and joins the animal herd. Whenever he curbs his desires, he ascends to the highest of the high and attains the angelic level."
-Imam al-Ghazali"Declare your jihad on thirteen enemies you cannot see - egoism, arrogance, conceit, selfishness, greed, lust, intolerance, anger, lying, cheating, gossiping and slandering. If you can master and destroy them, then you will be read to fight the enemy you can see."
- Imam al-Ghazali
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Peace JavaLatte
To control lust Men have instituted a system of oppression
that favors men and marginalizes women. Allah has warned us about
oppression and subjugation but we can't seem to do otherwise.Oppression has negative effects on the oppressed and the oppressor
The oppressed fear, conformity, self hate, self deception and hopelessness.
The oppressor tyranny, punishment, ownership, paternalism and control.Oh, okay, I think I started to get a hint about what you meant, brother Hawk. I suppose I confused because I didn't see things you mentioned happens in my environment (my city and in the other places I've visited in my country). I think, in general (commonly) - Indonesian women are not being oppressed by Indonesian men.
Anyway, brother Hawk and everyone, perhaps we should try to listen to what the topic starter (Hiroshi) wanted to convey here. It seems that Hiroshi wanted to share something that can be solution for those who want to be free from being lustful by treating the root cause of lust (on individual level).
Peace everyone,
Today I visited a forum. And In that forum there was a thread were some forum members had discussed the topic of lust (in the past). In that thread some members had shared their thoughts regarding how to overcome the sin of lust. And one of the members claimed that getting married is the best solution to the problem of lust. But personally, I disagree with such a view. Because it seems that if someone struggles with the sin of lust and gets married, then/she will just bring that problem into his/her marriage. In my view, marriage is not a magical solution to the problem of lust. I think that if someone gets married in order to solve the problem of lust, then he/she is not treating the root cause of lust.
@ Hiroshi
Do you know how to treat the root cause of lust?
Maybe you cold tell us more (explain) about it.
Thank you. Peace.
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Peace JavaLatte and everyone,
@ Hiroshi
Do you know how to treat the root cause of lust?
Maybe you cold tell us more (explain) about it.
I recommend this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608087.msg380737#msg380737
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Peace JavaLatte and everyone,
I recommend this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608087.msg380737#msg380737
It seems what I could get is the treatment is by finding the real meaning of our lives, or perhaps in other words we should know the real purpose of life, is it correct?
Peace.
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Peace huruf and everyone,
If the truth be told, I don't think that anyone in this forum rejects/condemns sex. However, it seems that there are many members in FM who believe that sexual relations outside of marriage is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran.
I have shared some of my thoughts and views/opinions regarding sexual relations outside of marriage in the post below.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376592#msg376592
I'd like to share a quote here.
I did not pretend at all that anybody in this forum or elsewhere were taking as a principle that sex is a sewer or or it raises that. I think that some readers understood well what I meant.
It is a fact in society as a whole at somelevel, and dependg on whom, at all levels sex is dealth with or is held s a kind of sewer. Even when we hear that in order to escape "lust" we should marry, what idea do we have in mind to take refuge of something which seems to be so frightening.
So then, first and foremost for ech of us
what is sex? what does it mean? how do we interpret it?
We know why we eat, we know perfectlly well that it is not every time we eat that we do it because if not we would die for lack of nourishment. We also know that we can eat and drink without unbearable hunger be th reason for it. I sum we eat for pleasure? Is it wrong? It can be wrong but it is not necessarily wrong. Eating for pleasure has its own limits since when we overdo it, we get health trouble. We may get other troubles BEFORE we get health troubles because we become addicted to the pleasure of eating which inevitably will lead to the physical troubles becuse we will not be able to stop it.
But nothing wrong with eating for pleasure in itself. It has its limits. Obvious but unclear limits in the sense that we do feel that we are trespassing them unless we are alert.
Tehre are clear differences btween sex and eating. Eating we do it with food. Sex "ideally" is not with ourselves alone but with somebody else. Nothing wrong with pleasure. I fact pleasure, I think, is a requirement for health. The poorest people, within their own constraints, manage to get pleasur of some kind.
We are told in the Qur'an that when we get, in sha' allah to paradise we will recognize things that we tasted in our past life. Pleasure seems to be one of them. Pleasure is the nosstalgy for paradise. But for that, our pleasures must be joyful, pure, untainted. Pure pleasure, not treason, no betrayal, no using other people as if they were rags we use and throw. What do we get out of "companions pure"?
The fact that sex is with somebody else makes it on a higher level than food, more complex but also more rewarding and purer. We may tolerate some "licence" with ourselves, because we know ourselves (or should or might) but we do not know othrs as well, so we may harm the other and taint him or her, making them ito our instruments, filthy ones, nd not ito our companions, ure companions.
It is too bad that most "sensible" pople seem to hold the view that thre is no sex in paradise, since we do not need reproduction? Just as we will not need to eat or drink, but still we are told that we will get drinks and foods. So why not sex. Of course it will not be the same as here, eithr the food, neithr the drink, neither the sex. But we will recognize it.
Those "sensible" opinions say that since we will not reproduce we will not need sex. But
did God give us reproduction as we know, sexual, as we know it as a need or as aa pleasure, as some way of acknowleding Him, Glorious. Because we could achieve rerodution by the same compulsive mechanism and still not get any pleausre out of it. It is quite possible. In fact that is the way birth is achieved for the mothers. Compulsive but not precisely pleasurable most of the time.
So, my view, is that sex is a gift from God, a sacred gift for our pleasure, but not to treat it as trash, which is the standing it gets in societies at many levels. Prostitution is not highly considered, and prostitution is not done only by those who get paid for it, but by anybody that subverts the gift of God making it trivial, an entertainment because you feel bored or want some excitement, that is prostituting yourself and your soul. And I do not mean either that xentertainment or ecitement is wrong, in due measure and in due form.
We should observe ourselves, analyse why we feel whatever we feel, why we do this or that... Be absolutely sincere with ourselves. Get naked of all our "libas", of all thoughts that cover our most inner feelings and motives. We are our best teachers by God's prmission if we ask ourselves sincerely, without entrapments and we answer in the same way.And let us not forget what the Qur'an says in 4.21
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
This mithaq ghaliDh which here is translated as solemn covenant occurs only in the Qur'an when refrring to the covenant of God with his prophets or with the people led by the prohet.
Which means that this joyous happening is something that God holds as ghaliDh, as pact, and as something tremendous in its import. This is nothing to do with somberness as sex has been held in certain Christian minds as something dark and devious and misleading. That is not what the Qur'an transmits. It is pleasure, it is joy, it is something which will be shown to us in Paradise, in sha' Allah in its "real" reality, and He gives us here a pre taste, a reflection of the thing itself.
If I am allowed the comparison, it is something as the globus fish of Japan, which is a great worthwhile treat, but you have to make sure that you clean it well to rid it of the mortal poison.
Salaam
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Peace huruf.
I like your post. It is "pleasurable" to read.
You hit the bullseye with 421. Intimacy for a couple is the joining of the souls.
Betrayal of the soul is a gross injustice.So I agree that "sex" needs to be understood in that context. A mutual agreement between two people. That intimacy of being together locks them into one unit.A contract that needs to be fulfilled throughout their life together.
Of course ,we are still researching what is "pleasure" of all our senses. We get pleasure from seeing, hearing, touching, eating, drinking,sex,etc...But there is that fine line between what benefit us and what harm us. Exceeding that line can be fatal.
Thank you for that insight huruf.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thaks good logic, I am glad you have seen something of what sort of hovered above me.
I think pleasure from God is unconditional. God does not ask anything form us in order to order pleasure for us. What is imortant is that we recognize the pleasure, acknowledge it, enjoy it and then think what great creator is our Creator who created pleasure and thank Him from our hearts for His generosity, for his wondrous generosity, and then enjoy us in full knowledge that we must enjoy fully pleasure because when the hard times come and we must suffer we may know who and what we are and what God wants to make of us, courageous, joyful, persons who want to get nearer to Him.
I spoke about the pleasure of sex and about the pains of childbirth, we must acknowledge both. Males have the trap of not knowing the second and therefore thinking that everything is for free, that is thir pitfall, and that is why God in the honourable Qur'an orders them so many things and why he sent so mny male prophets. Males ar not there to enjoy what is on earth without a counterbalance, they must serve, as prophets serve, and males must support, sustain women, because they come up with the burden that sex bring to the women but not to the men.
Nowhere it is a matter of guilt, but a matter of honour, for each of them as they come up willingly to the hnour that God wants to bestow on them.
Salaam
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Peace huruf and everyone,
I did not pretend at all that anybody in this forum or elsewhere were taking as a principle that sex is a sewer or or it raises that. I think that some readers understood well what I meant.
Are you implying that you have spoken in a secret language that only some readers have understood? Can you tell all of us (in a honest/straighthforward way) what you did meant?
Nothing wrong with pleasure. I fact pleasure, I think, is a requirement for health. The poorest people, within their own constraints, manage to get pleasur of some kind.
I think you are right/correct when you say that there is nothing wrong with pleasure and that pleasure is a requirement for health. It seems that pleasure is a natural sensation which our body uses to encourage us to do things that are good for us (e.g. eating nutritious food). Thus, it seems that pleasure serves its purpose. But is pleasure a means to an end, or an end in itself? This question is worth pondering upon, in my opinion.
From my understanding of Al-Quran, pleasure is not haram (forbidden). And from my understanding of AQ, getting pleasure is not incompatible with the teachings of this divine/sacred book. That being said, AQ seems to suggest that one should get pleasure only in a moderate way. From my knowledge, even water which is good for our bodies, can become dangerous if it's not used in moderation. There have been incidents where people have become hospitalized because they drank too much water.
As mentioned earlier, water is good for our bodies. But if we misuse water, it can be bad for us. Perhaps the same goes for pleasure. I think that there is a difference between getting pleasure (as a means to an end) or pursuing pleasure (as an end in itself). There are several verses in AQ which seem to suggest that the "pursuit of pleasure" is incompatible with the teachings of this sacred/divine book (see this post).
It is too bad that most "sensible" pople seem to hold the view that thre is no sex in paradise, since we do not need reproduction? Just as we will not need to eat or drink, but still we are told that we will get drinks and foods. So why not sex. Of course it will not be the same as here, eithr the food, neithr the drink, neither the sex. But we will recognize it.
There might be sex in the next life (aka Paradise). Have you find any Quranic verses which suggest that there is sex in Paradise? If you have found any verse which explicitly states that there is sex in paradise, please share it in a post in this thread.
So, my view, is that sex is a gift from God, a sacred gift for our pleasure, but not to treat it as trash, which is the standing it gets in societies at many levels.
Are you referring to sex between a husband and wife? Or are you referring to sex outside of marriage?