Blasphemy against God

[HP_TECH]

Peace HP-TEC

I look for better understanding of 551 and I found this

The correct translation of the verse in Surat Al-Ma?idah is (Al-Ma'dah 5 51)

I can only rely on others interpretion since I dont understand arabic.

Peace NielsJacob,

You do not have to rely on translations you can use word for word translations which give you the opportunity to check each words meaning and concordance in Quranic text.

For example corpusquran.com word for word web translation
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp

Then you can check each word's roots with project root list
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

From project root list you can also click on links for specific roots which send you to an arabic almanac
with arabic dictionaries and lexicons like Lane's Lexicon, Hans Wehr and etcetera.
Here is a direct link to the Arabic Almanac
http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=63,ll=182,ls=5,la=199,sg=121,ha=38,pr=22,vi=70,mgf=85,mr=61,mn=53,aan=59,kz=88,uqq=22,ulq=351,uqa=46,uqw=148,umr=87,ums=66,umj=57,bdw=67,amr=44,asb=42,auh=149,dhq=42,mht=30,msb=21,tla=28,amj=46,ens=1,mis=100

But it is better to know which word/root you are interested in from corpus and then check its root on project root list, then click on the link for the root on project root list and it will show you the meaning from many different lexicons and dictionaries which you can compare and contrast.

Also for better understanding of the topic I posted that link which has a 4 page correspondence between individuals who debated about the issue. I know it is kind of bothersome but there is no proper short answer. You should read the full four page correspondence; if you navigate on that forum and check the third to last page of that topic you will get a better sense.

I could in short though just remind that the Quran is a book, you do not look at one verse and expect to completely understand all pertaining such topic. You have to consider all the other verses related. And for 551 there is an innumerable amount of verses related to nasara("Christians&quot and how the believers should treat them.

In the correspondence nasara was better clarified as well as People of the Book and also important verses clarifying the topic were demonstrated.

Again I do recommend you read the full correspondence, but here is the link to the last most important page of the thread
http//www.lucidean.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=122&start=30

Please take a look at it

Citing the Quran, taking it as a whole and examining related verses we get a better picture of the topic

607 Perhaps God will grant compassion between you and those you consider enemies; and God is Capable. And God is Forgiving, Merciful.
608 God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.
609 But God does prohibit you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors.

[NielsJacob]

Peace HP_TEC

You do not have to rely on translations you can use word for word translations which give you the opportunity to check each words meaning and concordance in Quranic text.

For example corpusquran.com word for word web translation
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp

Thanks that seemed like a good idea.

I checked for the word awliya (Allied/friend/patron). And not Nasara even though I think the meaning of that word/name bear a deeper meaning,

I can see that friend really dont look like the best translation. The word that come up is more like protector/allies/guardians.

[HP_TECH]

Peace HP_TEC

Thanks that seemed like a good idea.

I checked for the word awliya (Allied/friend/patron). And not Nasara even though I think the meaning of that word/name bear a deeper meaning,

I can see that friend really dont look like the best translation. The word that come up is more like protector/allies/guardians.

That's great that you found it useful.
I never thought of taking a better look at that word before. That is a great idea.
Exactly guardian/ally/protector is someone you put trust in or rely on.
We should also keep in mind that they were in a time of military conflict per se, so it is clearly not advisable to secretly ally with the very people who are persecuting you and fighting you.
Another thing to consider is the people amongst those groups were not all the same 375 explains this in terms of trust

IN THE NAME OF THE GOD THE MOST GRACIOUS THE MOST MERCIFUL
And among the People of the Book is he who, if you entrust him with a great amount of wealth, he will return it to you.
And among them is he who, if you entrust him with a single coin, he will not return it to you unless you constantly stand demanding (it). That is because they say, ?There is no blame upon us concerning the unlettered people.? And they speak a lie about Allah while they know.

[NielsJacob]

Peace HP_TEC

That's great that you found it useful.
I never thought of taking a better look at that word before. That is a great idea.
Exactly guardian/ally/protector is someone you put trust in or rely on.
We should also keep in mind that they were in a time of military conflict per se, so it is clearly not advisable to secretly ally with the very people who are persecuting you and fighting you.
Another thing to consider is the people amongst those groups were not all the same 375 explains this in terms of trust

Yes you are right.
And also we know that some Christians are going to Heaven. (2.62 and 5.69)

But it came to my mind that it mentioned in my translation (danish) many times that you shouldn?t take any other friend than God. Like in 25.18. But now I see that not many use the translation friend. (But some do). And it doesn?t make sence.
They will say Glory be to You. It did not become us (even) to take friends other than You (let alone asking them to worship othersbe sides You). But, (O Lord,) You bestowed upon them and their fathers worldly riches to such an extent that they forgot (even) Your remembrance. And these were but the (doomed) people to be destroyed.

But here again is it the same word awliya (Allied/friend/patron)
So in both cases the word make better sence in the meaning protector. And the jewish/christians are not different form any other human being. Since no-one than God should be your protector/Patron/Lord.

Salam

[NielsJacob]

Or check the verse 29.41.
Where we also se the word/meaning used

The example of those who take allies(awliya) besides God is like the spider how it makes a home; and the weakest home is the home of the spider, if only they knew.

[HP_TECH]

Peace HP_TEC

Yes you are right.
And also we know that some Christians are going to Heaven. (2.62 and 5.69)

But it came to my mind that it mentioned in my translation (danish) many times that you shouldn?t take any other friend than God. Like in 25.18. But now I see that not many use the translation friend. (But some do). And it doesn?t make sence.
They will say ?Glory be to You. It did not become us (even) to take friends other than You (let alone asking them to worship othersbe sides You). But, (O Lord,) You bestowed upon them and their fathers worldly riches to such an extent that they forgot (even) Your remembrance. And these were but the (doomed) people to be destroyed.?

But here again is it the same word awliya (Allied/friend/patron)
So in both cases the word make better sence in the meaning protector. And the jewish/christians are not different form any other human being. Since no-one than God should be your protector/Patron/Lord.

Salam

It depends by who you are referring by Jews and Christians
I wouldn't consider today Jews and Christians as the hadu and nasara.
Do you think that any people that reject God's message of The Quran and His warner, the last prophet can go to Heaven?
And especially those who associate partners with God and have said an abomination about Allah?
Claiming that He has begotten a son?
No obviously this refers to the hadu and nasara of ancient before the Quran was revealed.
If the hadu and nasara of the time of Muhammad would have remained firm on the Taurat and the Injeel they would recognize the truth in the Quran and their messenger and some did and believed.

4610 Say ?Do you see that if it were from God, and you rejected it, and a witness from the Children of Israel bore witness to its similarity, and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant? Surely, God does not guide the wicked people.?

17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?
17108 And they say ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.

Ultimately you should be equitable with all people, but today's Christians are by no means going to Heaven unless they remain firm on their scripture in which they are concerning it disquieting in doubt; recognize and understand true monotheism and accept the din and worship/serve Allah alone being sincere to Him in the system.
Same for those who call themselves hadu.

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Most Muslims are not going to Heaven either because the majority miss the point.

Rabb is greatest but that does not say one can be symbiotically united with Him. The major fault with Christians is they revere Jesus rather than take his word on what to do to become a son or daughter of God themselves instead. Jesus showed the way. And by son there is no physical relationship intended but it is through the Spirit.

God generated (fathered) the Spirit of yours in His own image and put it to the test in a Body and told you not to "eat of the fruit of the tree" to avoid the corruptible nature of the physical World while the Satan (the instinct) will constantly entice you to do so. Perfect and conclusive allegory which deluded clerics distorted and whose account it is you believe in through the Islamic sect doctrine.

Lesson of the ancient story "The World in which you live is designed to corrupt". By "eating from the fruit" you will be given more of the World and succumb to it, i.e. you are going down. That Spirit will never develop properly. Remedy "Avoid indulgence. Do not accept the treats of the World. And stay sharp. And continue through the life separated".

And the story about a hedonistic paradise is a blatant lie. A successful future is of an ethereal origin. You will be manager in the Rabb's service, like Gabriel and Michael. Manager of future cycles of expansion of the Rabb's consciousness.

The heavy blasphemy has been the illusion of a fleshly paradise awaiting. And the illusion that one has to wait until death to join God's domain. But God's domain is at hand.

Be safe
Amenuel

[HP_TECH]

Most Muslims are not going to Heaven either because the majority miss the point.

Rabb is greatest but that does not say one can be symbiotically united with Him. The major fault with Christians is they revere Jesus rather than take his word on what to do to become a son or daughter of God themselves instead. Jesus showed the way. And by son there is no physical relationship intended but it is through the Spirit.

God generated (fathered) the Spirit of yours in His own image and put it to the test in a Body and told you not to "eat of the fruit of the tree" to avoid the corruptible nature of the physical World while the Satan (the instinct) will constantly entice you to do so. Perfect and conclusive allegory which deluded clerics distorted and whose account it is you believe in through the Islamic sect doctrine.

Lesson of the ancient story "The World in which you live is designed to corrupt". By "eating from the fruit" you will be given more of the World and succumb to it, i.e. you are going down. That Spirit will never develop properly. Remedy "Avoid indulgence. Do not accept the treats of the World. And stay sharp. And continue through the life separated".

And the story about a hedonistic paradise is a blatant lie. A successful future is of an ethereal origin. You will be manager in the Rabb's service, like Gabriel and Michael. Manager of future cycles of expansion of the Rabb's consciousness.

The heavy blasphemy has been the illusion of a fleshly paradise awaiting. And the illusion that one has to wait until death to join God's domain. But God's domain is at hand.

Be safe
Amenuel

Without any Ayaahs from Our Lord to support your claims one has to wonder whether this is merely your biased opinion.

[NielsJacob]

It depends by who you are referring by Jews and Christians
I wouldn't consider today Jews and Christians as the hadu and nasara.
Do you think that any people that reject God's message of The Quran and His warner, the last prophet can go to Heaven?
And especially those who associate partners with God and have said an abomination about Allah?
Claiming that He has begotten a son?
No obviously this refers to the hadu and nasara of ancient before the Quran was revealed.
If the hadu and nasara of the time of Muhammad would have remained firm on the Taurat and the Injeel they would recognize the truth in the Quran and their messenger and some did and believed.

4610 Say Do you see that if it were from God, and you rejected it, and a witness from the Children of Israel bore witness to its similarity, and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant? Surely, God does not guide the wicked people.

17107 Say Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.
17108 And they say Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.

Ultimately you should be equitable with all people, but today's Christians are by no means going to Heaven unless they remain firm on their scripture in which they are concerning it disquieting in doubt; recognize and understand true monotheism and accept the din and worship/serve Allah alone being sincere to Him in the system.
Same for those who call themselves hadu.

Peace

I think that in general the words in Quran are not limited to a certain time. But again you could be right.

I think many christian dont see Jesus as God. But are told they are supposed to do so if they should see themselves as Christians. Like the JW will claim that it aint Biblical that Jesus should be God.
I personal have discussed this topic with several so-called Christians. They say the Jesus aint God. When I then tell them they aint Christians but more like Muslim they say okay, but they dont like the muslim traditions and muslim put Muhammed like Christians put God.
When I read for them from Quran they normally also dont put any negative claim to it.
They simply dont see it at their tradition.
So for the Christians wich in the core are strictly monotheistic, I think the Heaven is a possibility for them. Like mentioned in 2.62 and 5.69.

But again I can see the point why should they be misguided and still go to Heaven.
So the test is like If they are presented for the word of God (Quran) and they then reject it they are among the misguided.
Like showed in your quotes (46.10 and 17.107-109)

[NielsJacob]

Corretion Like Christians put Jesus (not God)

[HP_TECH]

I have to clarify a couple of things
In my previous comment I was referring to the verses you cited that these verses are referring to specifically those People of the Book of ancient that believed, but I must clarify that it also includes those across all time that have turned or will turn to true monotheism and accepted/will accept the din in Islam (Peaceful Surrender) and the Light and Criterion(Quran) and doing so supported/will be supporting and not denying their messenger.

@NielsJacob Basically it is essential to believe in what was revealed to Muhammad check out surah 471-3.
Most Christians actually do believe Jesus is God and divide the divinity in three parts.
If they do not believe Jesus is God, they still believe he is God?s son. Glory be to Allah above what they associate! God speaks about all the idol worshipping in detail. Check out the verses below later.

I would know I speak from experience. That is what Christianity entails mainly the holy trinity and acceptance of Jesus as the son of God and the veneration of the virgin Mary.
Add to it the idol worship of the saints for every other day and the popes and the priests which are worshipped as well. The whole idea of intercession is central to Christianity, while God tells us there is no intercession, He is the only intercessor. There is no helper or protector besides Him. Jesus, Mary, the Apsotles, the popes, the saints, the bishops, the cardinals, their priests the prayers of their pastor none of them can save them from Allah, yet they take them as lords besides Him. Exalted is Allah above what they ascribe!
There is nothing monotheistic about Christianity today.
You are speaking about a minuscule minority, even then have they accepted the Quran as God?s message and do they support their messenger or deny him? Like the huda denied Isa?

@Man of Faith I have compiled here for you and all who claim that God has any son a list of all the occurrences of the word son as related to Allah in the Quran.
Your claim for Isa being a son in the spiritual sense is a blasphemy.
We are by no means the spiritual offspring of our Creator we are His slaves.
There is nothing remotely close to Allah in any of His attribute.
You are totally showing lack of understanding for monotheism by claiming such an atrocity.
When we think of Allah we think of the Ultimate, The Absolute.
It is unlike any other concept or idea. Everything except God can be described as relative. Meaning we can make comparisons to things in relation to describe them.
There is nothing comparable or relative to the Absolute. That is logically impossible.
Your attempt to compensate your secret obsession with the teachings of the Bible have failed you and if not you desist will lead you further into shirk.
I see our new member csmith has highlighted for you some of your central flaws in another post. Take all this as warning and advise from caring individuals but we will reign firm against the disbelief you propagate.

Here you are all concerned with this fellow needzhelp for having blasphemous thoughts, not realizing that you yourself have written blasphemy.

Isa never claimed He was the spiritual son of Allah! Where do you read that in the Quran?
It is convenient for a Nasara like yourself to claim that Isa came and taught us that we are all spiritual children of God.
But where do you read that in the Laws and the prophets? NOWHERE

Allah does not beget Man of Faith, nor physically, mentally, spiritually not whatsoever.
He has no offspring and perhaps His words here will convince you if He so wills.

PLEASE READ ALL THESE OCCURRENCES and NEVER propagate such ABOMINATIONS again!
For you are your deeds and for us are our deeds.
Not we seek the ignorant!

2116-117
Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona
BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

And they said, "has taken Allah a son." Glory be to Him! Nay, for Him (is) what (is) in the heavens and the earth. All to Him (are) humbly obedient.
(The) Originator (of) the heavens and the earth! And when He decrees a matter, only He says to it "Be," and it becomes.

4171

O People (of) the Book! (Do) not commit excess in your religion and (do) not say about Allah except the truth. Only the Messiah, Isa, son (of) Maryam, (was) a Messenger of Allah and His word which He conveyed to Maryam and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers. And (do) not say, "Three;" desist (it is) better for you. Only Allah (is) God One. Glory be to Him! That He (should) have for Him a son. To Him (belongs) whatever (is) in the heavens and whatever (is) in the earth. And Allah is sufficient (as) a Disposer of affairs.

517
Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha huwa almaseehu ibnu maryama qul faman yamliku mina Allahi shay-an in arada an yuhlika almaseeha ibna maryama waommahu waman fee al-ardi jameeAAan walillahi mulku alssamawati waal-ardi wama baynahuma yakhluqu ma yashao waAllahu AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun

Certainly disbelieved - those who said, "Indeed, Allah, He (is) the Messiah, son (of) Maryam." Say, "Then who has power against Allah (in) anything if He intends to destroy the Messiah, son (of) Maryam, and his mother and whoever (is) in the earth all?" And for Allah (is the) dominion (of) the heavens and the earth and what (is) between both of them. He creates what He wills, and Allah (is) on every thing All-Powerful.

572-75

Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha huwa almaseehu ibnu maryama waqala almaseehu ya banee isra-eela oAAbudoo Allaha rabbee warabbakum innahu man yushrik biAllahi faqad harrama Allahu AAalayhi aljannata wama/wahu alnnaru wama lilththalimeena min ansarin
Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha thalithu thalathatin wama min ilahin illa ilahun wahidun wa-in lam yantahoo AAamma yaqooloona layamassanna allatheena kafaroo minhum AAathabun aleemun
Afala yatooboona ila Allahi wayastaghfiroonahu waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun
Ma almaseehu ibnu maryama illa rasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu waommuhu siddeeqatun kana ya/kulani alttaAAama onthur kayfa nubayyinu lahumu al-ayati thumma onthur anna yu/fakoona

Certainly disbelieved those who say, "Indeed Allah - He (is) the Messiah, son (of) Maryam." While said the Messiah, "O Children (of) Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates partners with Allah, then surely Allah (has) forbidden for him Paradise and his abode (will be) the Fire. And not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
Certainly disbelieved those who say, "Indeed Allah (is the) third (of) three." And (there is) no god except (the) One God. And if not they desist from what they are saying surely will afflict those who disbelieved among them, a punishment painful.
So will not they turn to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Not (is) the Messiah, son (of) Maryam but a Messenger, certainly had passed before him the Messengers. And his mother (was) truthful. They both used to eat food. See how We make clear to them the Signs, then see how they are deluded.

5116
And when Allah said, "O Isa, son (of) Maryam! Did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother (as) two gods besides Allah?" He said, "Glory be to You! Not was for me that I say what not I (had) right. If I had said it, then surely You would have known it. You know what (is) in myself, and not I know what (is) in Yourself. Indeed, You, You (are) All-Knower (of) the unseen.

6100-101
WajaAAaloo lillahi shurakaa aljinna wakhalaqahum wakharaqoo lahu baneena wabanatin bighayri AAilmin subhanahu wataAAala AAamma yasifoona
BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shay-in wahuwa bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

And they make with Allah partners - jinn though He has created them, and they falsely attribute to Him sons and daughters without knowledge. Glorified is He and Exalted above what they attribute.
Originator (of) the heavens and the earth. How can be for Him a son while not (there) is for Him a companion, and He created every thing? And He (is) of every thing All-Knower.

930-31
Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi waqalati alnnasara almaseehu ibnu Allahi thalika qawluhum bi-afwahihim yudahi-oona qawla allatheena kafaroo min qablu qatalahumu Allahu anna yu/fakoona
Ittakhathoo ahbarahum waruhbanahum arbaban min dooni Allahi waalmaseeha ibna maryama wama omiroo illa liyaAAbudoo ilahan wahidan la ilaha illa huwa subhanahu AAamma yushrikoona

And said the Jews, "Uzair (is) son (of) Allah." And said the Christians, "Messiah (is) son (of) Allah." That (is) their saying with their mouths, they imitate the saying (of) those who disbelieved before. (May) Allah destroy them. How deluded are they!
They have taken their rabbis and their monks (as) Lords besides Allah and the Messiah, son (of) Maryam. And not they were commanded except that they worship One God. (There) is no god except Him. Glory be to Him from what they associate (with Him).

1068-69
Qaloo ittakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu huwa alghaniyyu lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi in AAindakum min sultanin bihatha ataqooloona AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoona
Qul inna allatheena yaftaroona AAala Allahi alkathiba la yuflihoona

They say, "Allah has taken a son." Glory be to Him! He (is) the Self-sufficient. To Him (belongs) whatever (is) in the heavens and whatever (is) in the earth. Not you have any authority for this. Do you say about Allah what not you know?
Say, "Indeed those who invent against Allah the lie, they will not succeed."

17111
Waquli alhamdu lillahi allathee lam yattakhith waladan walam yakun lahu shareekun fee almulki walam yakun lahu waliyyun mina alththulli wakabbirhu takbeeran
And say, "All Praise (is) for Allah the One Who has not taken a son and not is for Him a partner in the dominion, and not is for Him any protector out of weakness. And magnify Him (with all) magnificence."

184-5
Wayunthira allatheena qaloo ittakhatha Allahu waladan
Ma lahum bihi min AAilmin wala li-aba-ihim kaburat kalimatan takhruju min afwahihim in yaqooloona illa kathiban

And to warn those who say, "Allah has taken a son."
Not they have about it any knowledge and not their forefathers. Mighty (is) the word (that) comes out of their mouths. Not they say except a lie.

FREEMAN?S Translation for ease

1916 And relate in the Book, Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east.
1917 So she took a barrier to separate her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a mortal in all similarity.
1918 She said ?I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are righteous.?
1919 He said ?I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son.?
1920 She said ?How can I have a son when no mortal has been with me; and I have never been unchaste??
1921 He said ?It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained.?
1922 So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
1923 Then the birth pains came to her, by the trunk of a palm tree. She said ?I wish I had died before this, and became totally forgotten!?
1924 But then he called to her from beneath her ?Do not be sad, your Lord has made below you a stream.?
1925 ?And using the trunk of the palm tree, shake towards you; it will cause ripe dates to fall upon you.?
1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say ?I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??
1927 Then she came to her people carrying him. They said ?O Mary, you have come with a thing totally unexpected!?
1928 ?O sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, and your mother was never unchaste!?
1929 So she pointed to him. They said ?How can we talk to someone who is a child in a cradle??
1930 He said ?I am a servant of God, He has given me the Book and made me a prophet.?
1931 ?And He has made me blessed wherever I am, and He has charged me with the contact prayer and purification as long as I am alive.?
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a mischievous tyrant.?
1933 ?And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I am resurrected alive.?
1934 Such was Jesus, son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.
1935 Not (it) is for Allah that He should take any son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a matter, then only He says to it, "Be" and it is.

1988-93

And they say, "Has taken the Most Gracious a son."
Verily, you have put forth a thing atrocious.
Almost the heavens get torn therefrom, and splits asunder the earth and collapse the mountain (in) devastation
That they invoke to the Most Gracious a son.
And not is appropriate for the Most Gracious that He should take a son.
Not all who (are) in the heavens and the earth but (will) come (to) the Most Gracious (as) a slave.

2126-27

And they say, "Has taken the Most Gracious a son." Glorified is He! Nay, (they are) slaves honored.
Not they (can) precede Him in word, and they by His command act.

2391-92

Not Allah has taken any son, and not is with Him any god. Then surely (would have) taken away each god what he created, and surely would have overpowered, some of them others. Glory be (to) Allah above what they attribute!
Knower (of) the unseen and the witnessed, exalted is He above what they associate.

251-2

Blessed is He Who sent down the Criterion upon His slave that he may be to the worlds a warner
One Who - to Him (belongs) (the) dominion (of) the heavens and the earth, and not He has taken a son, and not He has for Him a partner in the dominion and He (has) created every thing, and determined it (with) determination.
Yet they have taken besides Him gods not they create anything, while they are created, and not they possess for themselves any harm and not any benefit, and not they control death and not life and not resurrection.

393-4

Unquestionably, for Allah (is) the religion the pure. And those who take besides Him protectors, "Not we worship them except that they may bring us near to Allah (in) nearness." Indeed, Allah will judge between them in what they differ. Indeed, Allah (does) not guide (one) who (is) a liar and a disbeliever.
If Allah (had) intended to take a son, surely, He (could) have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Glory be to Him! He (is) Allah the One, the Irresistible.

4381

Say, "If had the Most Gracious a son. Then, I (would be the) first (of) the worshippers."
Glory be (to the) Lord, (of) the heavens and the earth, (the) Lord (of) the Throne, above what they ascribe.
So leave them (to) converse vainly and play until they meet their Day which they are promised

471-3

Those who disbelieve and turn away from (the) way of Allah, He will cause to be lost their deeds.
And those who believe and do righteous deeds, and believe in what is revealed to Muhammad, and it (is) the truth from their Lord, He will remove from them their misdeeds, and improve their condition.
That (is) because those who disbelieve follow falsehood and that those who believe follow (the) truth from their Lord. Thus Allah presents to the people their similitudes.
5727
Then We sent on their footsteps Our Messengers and We followed with Isa, son (of) Maryam, and We gave him the Injeel. And We placed in (the) hearts (of) those who followed him compassion and mercy. But monasticism they innovated - not We prescribed it for them - only seeking (the) pleasure (of) Allah, but not they observed it (with) right observance. So We gave those who believed among them their reward, but most of them (are) defiantly disobediently.

616

And when said Isa, son (of) Maryam, "O Children of Israel! Indeed, I am (the) Messenger of Allah to you, confirming that which (was) before me of the Taurat and bringer of glad (of) a Messenger to come after me, whose name (will be) Ahmad" But when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, "This (is) a magic clear."

723-4

And that He - Exalted is (the) Majesty (of) our Lord - not He has taken a wife and not a son,
And that he used to speak - the foolish among us against Allah an excessive transgression.

[NielsJacob]

Peace HP_TECH

@NielsJacob Basically it is essential to believe in what was revealed to Muhammad check out surah 471-3.

Its seems to me you see Al Quran/Muhammed as a game changer.
But Al Quran and also 47 1-3 talk against this view.
The messeage of Muhammed aint a new message. To accept this is like accepting other messengers before him.
Remember2.164 (no distinction).
From what you writing in the beginning of your last post. I can see that you also agree on this point.
Therefor I also think that you conclusion is contraditionary to your own view.
If Al Quran tells us that some Christians are going to heaven. We should have in mind that these terms has not changed even due to Muhammed.

You are right that many Christians/Jews are doing wrong. But you can not draw the conclution that it should be all.

[HP_TECH]

Peace HP_TECH
Its seems to me you see Al Quran/Muhammed as a game changer.
But Al Quran and also 47 1-3 talk against this view.
The messeage of Muhammed aint a new message. To accept this is like accepting other messengers before him.
Remember2.164 (no distinction).
From what you writing in the beginning of your last post. I can see that you also agree on this point.
Therefor I also think that you conclusion is contraditionary to your own view.
If Al Quran tells us that some Christians are going to heaven. We should have in mind that these terms has not changed even due to Muhammed.

You are right that many Christians/Jews are doing wrong. But you can not draw the conclution that it should be all.

Every message with every prophet is a game changer for the people of their time. This is only obvious.
How can one be a believer and blatantly deny the message God has chosen and the message they have come with.
Think about it very well.
Exactly there should be no distinction so why would nasar and huda not accept Muhammad and the Quran?
As you can see there is no contradiction in my statements. Widen your perspective.
AlQuran is speaking about a specific people of a specific time in those verses you have indicated. If you knew Arabic or checked out in detail as with the other verse you would see that the verb used is in the perfect tense. Those who have believed among those people.
Even if you want to argue differently there are set requirements for believers whether before or after Muhammad.
I am not generalizing but those who associate partners with God and claim Allah has begotten or that there are three not one, or that Mary and Isa share in the dominion somehow, fall waaaaaay short of this requirement. Whether before or after Muhammad.
You are right it is the same message monotheism.
My only argument is that those who associate partners regardless of time and location and race or denomination have no argument.
The point is that if you are a Christian today or Jew today you most likely are following exactly what your parents were on and not adopting Islam and the Quran.
There is a reason why the Quran came the previous people had exceede in their limits and confounded the truth with the falsehood and written things with their own hands. This is all in the Quran.

If you are a Christian today and you are somehow able to remain unbiased and are able to follow the unadulterated teachings of God according to the final Criterion the Quran without having ever read it,
I will be highly impressed, because that is a slim to none chnsxe that that could ever happen.

The disbelievers and the belivers are like night and day Jacob.
They are not alike in this life and in the hereafter brother.

We cannot make any excuses for the People of the Book who reject today,
We ought to keep studying the Quran God says to follow the best of which He revealed.
Will you tell them to keep following that which has been corrupted?

God has already brought an equal or greater sign

[Man_of_Faith]

As long as you do not believe in the physical son of God error in the Bible then it is not so unlikely to find a guided Christian. They have a solid foundation with their Christian values and so on. Even their perception of children of God is accurate.

Be safe
Amenuel

[HP_TECH]

As long as you do not believe in the physical son of God error in the Bible then it is not so unlikely to find a guided Christian. They have a solid foundation with their Christian values and so on. Even their perception of children of God is accurate.

Be safe
Amenuel

Man this is an honest question. Show me proof from the Quran of what you speak of.
If you cannot show me the proof know that you are in the error.
Where in the Quran do you read God having any kind of spiritual children?

He has negated relationship between Himself and Jinn, because the Jinn know they will be brought to judgement and He has exposed those who claim the Angels are His sons and daughters.
He repeatedly tells us that everyone will come to Him as a slave on the Day of the Judgement.
Slaves does not equal children.

Angels could be considered spiritual forces or higher beings by our current knowledge.
They are closer than us to Allah and yet they are mere humble servants who carry out His command.
There is no such mention of any creation being a spiritual or any type of son to the Most High. Glory be to Him above what you ascribe!

Please refer to 393-4
God could have chosen from what He created if He willed.
Glory be to Him!

He is our Creator not spiritual father.
You cannot even go as far as saying spiritual father
Because every living agent has spirit and God is High above all.
You cannot compare or describe the Absolute in terms and concepts known by our terrestrial experience
He is way High above what you ascribe to Him Man.

Anyway bring your proofs if you are truthful.
And if not you do know that you are a liar.
And Gid does not guide the liar the disbeliever

[NielsJacob]

Every message with every prophet is a game changer for the people of their time. This is only obvious.

Yes I get your point. But it doesnt mean that everything is new. Like f your were saved, then you are no more. I talking of the game of saving and loss, and not life in general.
Offcause some things are changed but not the words of god.

Im afraid of that the argmentation is going in ring. Therefor I hope I will not keep repeting myselves.

I respect your point of view even if it doesn?t fit with my own. The only thing that worries me is that you argue like your opinion should be based on the word of God.

You are claiming that after Muhammed and AlQuran Christians and Jews are lost.

If you are a Christian today and you are somehow able to remain unbiased and are able to follow the unadulterated teachings of God according to the final Criterion the Quran without having ever read it,
I will be highly impressed, because that is a slim to none chnsxe that that could ever happen.

But its here that you cant rely on your own judgement.
Its clear that the Christanity you talk about obviously is away from the right path. But as I told you I know many who dont follow that road.
Instead of putting all your focus on bad things you should open your eyes for all the good things Christians do. Today I acompanied my friend from Syria who got reunited with his family (today). He told me how gratefull he was for all the work RedCross had done to help his wife and children.
If you compare Christians and socalled Muslim these days its obisly that the Christians are doing the good deeds. I cant see how you can talk like you do about them. Why aint you saing that muslims are suicide bombers that are going to Hell, but just focusing on your on view. Its easy to pick point and generelise. But harder to see the nuances. Like the ones in Christanity.
But again we aint God and we cant judge..

If we take a look at Quran and see how we should relate to the christians. We can see again and again that there aint anything mentioned that they should be totally lost like pagans.
Instead Quran shows us that we should try to reach a common understanding (3.64).
Also we know that its allowed for a believer to marry Christians women but not pagan women. 5.5 and 2.221. So its like you dont consider this huge difference.

Not to offend you but I see in your point of view and arguments, a simularity to the ones of the Christians claiming that you must accept Jesus as you Lord and savoir to be saved.
These tendencies has let to a lot of oppression from the Christian side. I?m afraid that your own view could lead to the same consequences.
In some way I think its this misunderstanding taking place inside ISIS. Claiming that all other are Pagans
Again I must warn you to go down that road where you are claim you views are from God, and are used to preach hatres against people whom are favored acording to AlQuran.
I know you dont want to go down that road just concider 7.37.
Again I?m not here to offend you. And Im hopping that we could come to a common understanding based on the word of God.
I see you have a sharp mind but let also your heart guide you.
My God guide both of us.

Peace and God bless you.

[fish_launcher]

I used to get them too, after my period of religious diaspora. Just stay calm and explain to yourself why you're wrong, instead of being horrified and burying them deep. The Quran encourages you to think and try to criticize it. The more you think, the more you believe. It'll stop eventually.

[hanslan]

i think the biggest mistake one makes when researching the Quran is making reference to other religious books. Especially when it comes to spirituality because the Quran has stated that what is made known about the spirit is very little. Even if it is revealed to selective individuals those individuals know that it is knowledge not meant for the masses. So whatever is discussed about spirit/ruh, actual reality between the Maker and us is all speculation. Even emotions (that may be overwhelming oneself) that may come from discussions of ruh/spirits inferring understanding of those matters can be imagination and believing something that is our own creation is just fooling yourself and will lead to failure in this life and the next. If the Maker intends to tell the masses of the secret of ruh, it could be clearly written but its not! Its a secret, or perhaps its knowledge that is beyond our understanding. We may think we know our Maker but we just know through the attributes that is shared, nothing more - not the REAL thing. We are after all humans with definite limitations. And here we are trying to figure out the Maker, even the book that is supposed to be followed can't be followed, funny being human. I too fall into the same category above. Sad.

[HP_TECH]

Yes I get your point. But it doesnt mean that everything is new. Like f your were saved, then you are no more. I talking of the game of saving and loss, and not life in general.
Offcause some things are changed but not the words of god.

Im afraid of that the argmentation is going in ring. Therefor I hope I will not keep repeting myselves.

I respect your point of view even if it doesn?t fit with my own. The only thing that worries me is that you argue like your opinion should be based on the word of God.

You are claiming that after Muhammed and AlQuran Christians and Jews are lost.But its here that you cant rely on your own judgement.
Its clear that the Christanity you talk about obviously is away from the right path. But as I told you I know many who dont follow that road.
Instead of putting all your focus on bad things you should open your eyes for all the good things Christians do. Today I acompanied my friend from Syria who got reunited with his family (today). He told me how gratefull he was for all the work RedCross had done to help his wife and children.
If you compare Christians and socalled Muslim these days its obisly that the Christians are doing the good deeds. I cant see how you can talk like you do about them. Why aint you saing that muslims are suicide bombers that are going to Hell, but just focusing on your on view. Its easy to pick point and generelise. But harder to see the nuances. Like the ones in Christanity.
But again we aint God and we cant judge..

If we take a look at Quran and see how we should relate to the christians. We can see again and again that there aint anything mentioned that they should be totally lost like pagans.
Instead Quran shows us that we should try to reach a common understanding (3.64).
Also we know that its allowed for a believer to marry Christians women but not pagan women. 5.5 and 2.221. So its like you dont consider this huge difference.

Not to offend you but I see in your point of view and arguments, a simularity to the ones of the Christians claiming that you must accept Jesus as you Lord and savoir to be saved.
These tendencies has let to a lot of oppression from the Christian side. I?m afraid that your own view could lead to the same consequences.
In some way I think its this misunderstanding taking place inside ISIS. Claiming that all other are Pagans
Again I must warn you to go down that road where you are claim you views are from God, and are used to preach hatres against people whom are favored acording to AlQuran.
I know you dont want to go down that road just concider 7.37.
Again I?m not here to offend you. And Im hopping that we could come to a common understanding based on the word of God.
I see you have a sharp mind but let also your heart guide you.
My God guide both of us.

Peace and God bless you.

Re read Surah 57 through corpus Quran nor any word for word translation.
You will see more clearly what your Lord is conveying to you.

You will see what is conveyed about the fate of the hypocrites and of most of the People of the Scripture.

Please re read entire Surah and get back to me.

5726 especially

You will read about the People of the Book and the followers of Isa as well( I know it is included with People of the Book)

Get back to me bro

[NielsJacob]

Peace HP-TECH

You will see what is conveyed about the fate of the hypocrites and of most of the People of the Scripture.

I totally agree with you.
I?m glad that we came to a common understanding that not all other than the followers of Quran/Muhammed should be lost.

We read it in the ayat you pointed out 5726 And We had sent Noah and Abraham, and We placed in their progeny the prophethood and the Book. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked.

Peace and God bless