THE TRUE QURANIC SHAHADA

good_logic

Peace As-Salaatayn.

Far from it Let me give you the context of 386

384

All these messengers brought the same message, "True Islam", why? carry on
385

Hence "all brought true Islam" confirmed above
386

"Qawmun" of every messenger "past,present and future Each messenger brings "Islam"- true submission" Hence those who witness the messenger are addressed here.This could also be witnesses of a future messenger, since all the true messengers confirm "true Islam" i,e submission to GOD Alone.
GOD is not asking us to "parrot" words that have no meaning He is asking us to believe by accepting the messenger and message when we witness the event of the coming of GOD s messenger.

Now for "saas" you say it means blessings on the messenger, I say it has no meaning ,why?

GOD supported the messenger Mohammed and the Angels did also, So GOD is asking the believers to support him as well. The verse is not asking anyone to parrot words on the prophet.
The same as when GOD asked the believers not to raise their voices above that of the prophet. All these instructions were required when the prophet was alive. He is no longer alive ,hence we cannot physically support him nor are we able to raise our voice above his today!!!!
You see brother, Qoran does not instruct us to send blessings on the messenger, the word "yusalluna" just means support in that verse.

Thank you for your post.
GOD bless you
Peace.

As-Salaatayn

Good logic,

Neither you or I are wrong about the idexcept in one thing. Why are we both right? Becaue al-rasool can mean 'the messengers, the message, the messenger or this messenger.' This is very simple for me to admit.

But your struggle is seeing where I am correct as well. As we know the messenger of God for our time is Muhammad (saas). Please don't think I am some traditionalist in hiding. The real struggle is for you to see the truth of what I am saying here, and that it is a step toward reconciliation as well.

Last but not least I can assure you that sallaa 3alaa and sallama do not mean support. God is telling us to pray for him/bless him as well as to salute him/wish peace on him. This is a fact, despite what most of my fellow Quranists WANT it (or don't want it) to be. We are to do this with all of God's prophets (saas).

Peace

reel

Last but not least I can assure you that sallaa 3alaa and sallama do not mean support. God is telling us to pray for him/bless him as well as to salute him/wish peace on him.

Do you mean to say he is not in peace? From my understanding, verse 3356 is telling us to show respect to the Prophet. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

huruf

Prophecy is much more than having a person from time to time to speak revelations from God.

Also when the Qur'an says that Muhammad is the seal of prophets what does it mean and to what do we attest to if we declare that Muhammad is a prophet of His?

I think what is being acknowledge is the fact tht prophecy exists. The root r-s-l indicates that it is at work all the time. Prophecy is not the privilege of a few, it is a flow from God to humans all the time that these acknowledge. God is not cut off from humanity and humans are not in need of having at all times a particular person to tell them this or that.

God, his message his essence flows all the time from Him to humans. To some humans it flows so strongly that the message, like a river, overflows and fills the heart of other humans, but it is not something which has a wall and is kept for some. Muhammad, as the seal is the acknowledgemnt of prophecy to everybody who wishes to acknowledge, praise and express gratitude for it.

With these discussions about the shahada I have the same feeling as with those bizantyne discussions over the sex of angels, seem to me pure theoretical speculation over something that will not change anything at all however much we discuss it as if we were mastered the question, when, I think it goes beyond theortical formulations and is not bound by them.

I can't see how acknowledging prophecy for humanity is detracting from our aknowledgement of the fact that God is all there is and that everything is His and we ar also His and that nothing but nothing is but what God makes of it.

God does not risk loosing any status but we must know how we are connected to Him and praise that in his infinite Mercefulnes He made us aware of it.

I undersand this suspicion about mentionning the prophets comes from the demential exageration of imitating and praising Muhammad as if he were some kind of allpowerful "secretary" to God and therefore the way to get to Him, when of course God is there, here, all the time and nobody or anything is so, except that God wants us to feel some other presence, like may be the presence of a beloved that passed away or something, like a a gift from God to lighten our loss or things like that. Summing up all this is a need to acknowledge the essential unity of being, us with God and all the prophets and all the pwople and all that exists is one.

How can anything compete with God or how could we come to such an idea? I mean isn't that overworring about something impossible?

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

We all have the ability to prophesy but depending on our assimilation "In the deen".

Be safe
Amenuel

As-Salaatayn

Reel,

What is the greeting of the denizens of paradise?

Man of faith,

You should check what the Bible says about the original name for many "prophets." It says that most people later called prophets were just called 'seers' before that and they were not considered prophets. Prophet became an epithet for those who are not truly prophets.

A prophet bring information form the unknown and unseen world. So there can be prophets of any unkown being or thing. I'm sure many are prophets of Jinn. In Arabic nabeey comes from naba' or information. Tanabba' means to forecast. So a prophet of God has received information directly from God. If he is told to fullfill or spread it, he is a messenger of God.

Salaam.

reel

And what is there line after that greeting?

And angels shall enter unto them from every gate (saying) Salmun ?Alaykum (peace be upon you) for that you persevered in patience! Excellent indeed is the final home 1323-24

Man_of_Faith

Prophet, the word, is supposed to mean a person who can predict the future. It is not synonymous with the Arabic Nabi even if people translate it as such. Nabi means insightful and it is quite synonymous with the Sanskrit word buddha.

The word prophet is used properly in the Bible but it fits poorly. As you said, "seer" could have been a better translation choice. "False seers" rather than "false prophets". It means they bring false insight (information).

It has been taught before how to recognize a false one. They will not live as they teach. They may ask for money. They may ask for hedonistic living.

Be safe
Amenuel

reel

Prophet, the word, is supposed to mean a person who can predict the future. It is not synonymous with the Arabic Nabi even if people translate it as such. Nabi means insightful and it is quite synonymous with the Sanskrit word buddha.

The word prophet is used properly in the Bible but it fits poorly. As you said, "seer" could have been a better translation choice. "False seers" rather than "false prophets". It means they bring false insight (information).

It has been taught before how to recognize a false one. They will not live as they teach. They may ask for money. They may ask for hedonistic living.

Isn't it kind of a prophecy when someone says that if we don't do good we will end up in hell?

csmith

Isn't it kind of a prophecy when someone says that if we don't do good we will end up in hell?

Not really. Allah says that, and Allah knows everything (glorified is He). People just have faith in Allah. We can not verify that bad people go to Hell until we are dead. That's not quite the same thing as a prophecy really.

Man_of_Faith

Isn't it kind of a prophecy when someone says that if we don't do good we will end up in hell?

Depends on whether that person has any consciousness to be able to have any significant influence. If you speak of what people have said of old their words are distorted. You can also not change something which was prophesied in Genesis, you cannot overwrite an older prophecy.

Hell is a phenomenon which was invented much later and it did not truly exist in elder times. The first turn towards corruption was when the Jews spoke of a valley called GeHinnom, but they did not really know what they were talking about. This whole (physical) World is actually Gehennom, so right now you and me dwell in Gehennom. Our aim should be to get out of this mess and delusion and that is only possible by merging into the consciousness of Rabb, i.e. gain independence, become a recognized consciousness within or else one will remain among the dead (lifeless). One can think that people are alive in this World but in fact they are rather dead, swallowed by their own instincts in the Beast their soul is placed within. The only way is to go against the crowd and find their true self which is an image of Rabb.

In Genesis "Man was created in His image", i.e. the soul.

Be safe
Amenuel

Jafar

As for those of you who follow books other than the Quran and also follow the Quran, if you believe that there should be no other gods but/without God and that Muhammad (saas) is God's messenger and that he is true, then what is the problem? Your belief in these two items sets you apart, and makes you apart of a demographic that is not Hindu, not Jewish, and not Christian but Muslim despite having found truth in all of the scriptures of these people.

Why do you think there IS A NEED to set people apart?
Why do you think there IS A NEED to put a label on human as Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Christian?

As-Salaatayn

Jafar,

Because God tells those of us who believe in the Quran to prefer each other and to form a community apart by taking each other as awliyaa' of each other. And that we should not prefer those who do not believe in the Quran over those who do. The labels only represent reality.

Salaam

As-Salaatayn

Man of Faith,

I have found that the term 'oracle' is not only cooler but more accurate.

a a person (as a priestess of ancient Greece) through whom a deity is believed to speak
b a shrine in which a deity reveals hidden knowledge or the divine purpose through such a person
c an answer or decision given by an oracle
2
a a person giving wise or authoritative decisions or opinions
b an authoritative or wise expression or answer

http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oracle

Salaam

reel

Not really. Allah says that, and Allah knows everything (glorified is He). People just have faith in Allah. We can not verify that bad people go to Hell until we are dead. That's not quite the same thing as a prophecy really.

But isn't it like Quran gives certain examples of things that would lead us to hell?

Hell is a phenomenon which was invented much later and it did not truly exist in elder times. The first turn towards corruption was when the Jews spoke of a valley called GeHinnom, but they did not really know what they were talking about. This whole (physical) World is actually Gehennom, so right now you and me dwell in Gehennom. Our aim should be to get out of this mess and delusion and that is only possible by merging into the consciousness of Rabb, i.e. gain independence, become a recognized consciousness within or else one will remain among the dead (lifeless). One can think that people are alive in this World but in fact they are rather dead, swallowed by their own instincts in the Beast their soul is placed within. The only way is to go against the crowd and find their true self which is an image of Rabb.

In Genesis "Man was created in His image", i.e. the soul.

Be safe
Amenuel

Thank you for the explanation of MOF. I will have to research more on it. Haven't made up my mind. By the way, I am talking about GeHinnom. It is possible that they spoke of it just like that, but again, we can't deny the fact that they did receive message from God.

When it comes to hell, I would stick to what Quran says.

Hell should torture all the bad people without discrimination. But this is not the case in this world. Rothschilds, Bush family and the likes are having a pretty good time here.

peace

Man_of_Faith

Hi reel,

Quran says what I said depending on the interpreter. Gehennom is the word used to translate Hell and it not correct. There is no Hell in that regard but Hell is recurring exposure to this fate of living in this "cage". It is eternal for most people and getting into a bad habit is hard to get away from.

Obviously you see that evil people get what they deserve and the breaking down of their Spirit is fatal to them. It is harder and harder per negative cycle to find a way out since your blindness worsens. Try to look at certain totally absorbed people. Many people are not much more than an animal.

Be safe
Amenuel

As-Salaatayn

Jahannam is Hell and is NOT in this life. The Quran is clear about that.

good_logic

Peace ManOfFaith.

Qoran says "Gehenna" does not exist yet. Look at this "sectarian" translation of Qoran I am providing you with, confirming this

6917
The angels will be all around, and Your Lord's dominion will then encompass eight (universes).*

6918
On that day, you will be exposed, nothing of you can be hidden.

Now there is 7 universes according to Qoran, no "Gehenna" yet. Here is when "Gehenna" will be brought forth

8922
And your Lord comes, together with the angels in row after row.

8923
On that day, Gehenna will be brought forth. On that day, the human being will remember - but what a remembrance - it will be too late.

8924
He will say, "Oh, I wish I prepared for my (eternal) life."

But of course you will reply to me with another "Cock and bull" story, that has nothing to do with Qoran, but only confirms your "imaginary Qoran" that you have with you. Your own Qoran that you claim says some weird and far fetched stories/ideas/..,Some of these ideas are worse than what you are claiming these sectarians are coming up with.

And you say ,you have strong evidence that your understanding is well researched and evidenced.
I must be blind, dumb and deaf to your clear evidence brother.

Sorry but the more posts you write, the deeper into this "imaginary Qoran"you are getting.

All is left for me to say is this "Gehenna " of yours is giving some evil criminals the best deal.

Bring on this "Gehenna " of yours some will say.I say( Like GOD advises me to say)

2565
And they say, "Our Lord, spare us the agony of "Gehenna"; its retribution is horrendous.

2566
"It is the worst abode; the worst destiny."

Yes brother, I hope both you and me are spared
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

Jahannam is Hell and is NOT in this life. The Quran is clear about that.

That depends on whose understanding of things you seek. Quran is clear, but not the people who tried to understand it.

Hint is that (Jahannom) is based on the same root as (jann) which is the word that people claim to refer to some supernatural being called Jinn. In truth Jann means bodily, something's exterior covering. The whole word with 4 letters Jahannom is descriptive and refers to "attachment to bodily" quite morphologically, it only takes some real Arabic language skill but mostly logic.

For the structure of the word Jahannom, (heh) does not make up the base form of any root but (alif), (waw) and (heh) all may substitute each other based on the grammar and word form you seek. Jahannom the word is like an acronym however and descriptive and you need to know the innate meanings of Semitic letters.

You get into Hell for messing up in this World (or rather remain in it), but you are also already there. A person who is permanently in Hell means they keep a Body continually. In Roman Catholic belief there is a Purgatory and briefly it can be said that Jahannom is a kind of purgatory albeit the word Jahannom does not say anything other than that one is attached to the bodily. This place is not for rejoice but better get out of it quickly.

Be safe
Amenuel

Man_of_Faith