THE TRUE QURANIC SHAHADA
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Salaam As-Salaatayn,
Why would you believe that Adam and Eve were broken into many different people? Where did you get that information from?
I don't think we are "here on earth paying for our forefather and foremother's crime". We are just here being tested, not being punished. To conclude that we must be Adam and Eve because we are here being punished is a massive leap based on a misunderstanding. Where in the Quran does it say that life is a punishment? That is a Roman Catholic idea.
Original sin is not Islamic, but in an attempt to make it fit, you have reinvented the story of Adam and Eve (and the concept of reincarnation) so now our original ancestors are reincarnated as billions of people, and they had no descendants??
No one knows what happened to Adam and Eve beyond what we are told in the Quran. Maybe they were split into billions of people, maybe Allah created more people after them. We don't know, but we are warned against speculating about things we didn't witness and aren't told about in the Quran.
A lot of people in this forum seem to seek out mysteries for the specific purpose of filling in the gaps with stuff they came up with all by themselves. As Muslims, we should just accept that there is a lot that we will never know. Once we start filling in the gaps with our own stories, borrowing bits from Christians and Jews along the way, we end up no different to Sunnis.
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Csmith,
Think about it. Let's take the most common story
God creates a man and called him Adam. Then he creates a spouse for him which most call Eve. Both are placed in paradise.
They sin against God and disobey him. So God ejects them from Paradise and sends them to earth. That means that being on earth is a punishment or a time for redemption for them to be judged for their actions here on earth.
While on earth they have children who had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin and why they were kicked out of paradise. But then why do they have to go through the same trials and tribulations as Adam and Eve did on earth after being ejected from Paradise for their sin? Why are they not taken directly up to paradise? Why do they have to suffer the consequence of what Adam and Eve committed? Think about that. Doesn't the Quran say that every soul receives the consequence of what it earns itself and that no one bears the burden of another?
Let's not deal with what is Islamic or not. Let's deal with that is Quranic. Catholics don't have to be wrong about everything because they are Catholics, do they? Btw, I have never been a Catholic. I was raised in a Muslim family. But this is just logic. Think about it.
Salam
As for my filling of gaps. Take a look
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SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.711
And We have certainly created you, , and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated
And there is much more for those who carefully read.
Salaam
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Csmith,
I feel your frustration with this forum. I have come and gone often because of being frustrated with the licenses many take. I will just say this. I have been studying Classical Arabic for some time. I was actually an Arabic linguist in the Navy, and have benefited greatly from W. Wrights A grammar of the Arabic language, Lisanul-Arab, Taj Al-'Arous and Mu'jam Mufradaat Al-faadhul-Qur'an, and Al-Munjid Feel-Lugha is also a great resource. I have recanted on many of my beliefs that I formed as a Quranist in the past, especially as I became more and more versed in Classical Arabic. I continue to peruse books like sharh- Al-Ajurrumiyyah and others. This summer I was trying to get through Ibn Hisham's Seerah in Arabic and Az-Zamakhshari's Al-Kash-shaaf, and tackle the extremely difficult poetry in both, but especially in The Seerah. But alas, my schedule and my life got complicated. My stance is this. I will take an opinon if I think I have good evidence for what I believe. I will not make an opinion on something that I don't have enough information on and I will gladly change my opinions if I come to find that I am wrong. For instance, for some time I took the stance that Hajj was not to Makkah, a stance that many other Quranists here took after I took it. I have recanted. Much of the linguistic mauling that goes on here I used to be guilty of until I became more versed in Classical Arabic. I actually went into the Navy to continue that education to help this Quranist movement. But this has proved in vain, as the Quranist movement has been totally usurped by faux Arabic linguists who falsify at will with very limited knowledge of Classical Arabic, those who think that mish mashing translations and context guessing is good enough, Libertines, Feminists, conspiracy-theorists and anti-traditionalists. It is hot mess, in short. So please don't lump me with the rest here although I may be guilty with some things. Unfortunately, spaces like these are the only places where even those of us who are well-versed Quranists can interact without feeling the heat.
As I study the Quran more and more, taking into account the Classical Arabic I see how Muslims HAVE added a lot but they have kept much of the spirit of the Quran. I have seen that much of what they do is Quranically based although not obligatory. I have seen it is wrong for Quranists to condemn other Muslims for adding to the religion as long as the practices are not anti-Quranic and not considered obligatory. I have seen that many Muslims try to slip corruption, occidentalism, libertinism and female chauvinism into the religion under the guise of Quran-only when they are not true students of the Quran but want to take advantage of what they see as a lack of detailed rulings in the Quran. Many conclusions are inevitable if we carefully study the Quran, like women not being able to pray during menstraution because they are not in a state of tahaarah. Yet Quranists here will flip backwards if you say such a thing and accuse you of twisting the Quran if you just add 2 + 2.
It seems that the goal of most Quranists is not to actually study, practice and live the Quran in every way possible but to make the Quran a religion acceptable to Modern Greco-Roman (Western) tastes. I am not one to try to change what my book says. But try to act like everything the book is obviously clear and if it isn't obvious then it is a fabrication is nonsense and goes against what the Quran says about itself.
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Man of Faith,
Jahannam does not come from Janna. Nor are you more qualified than those who research, studied and pored over the Arabic language to give us the meanings of its words, roots grammar and patterns. Your conjecture is just not enough, no matter how you try to couch it.
Mu'jam Mufradaat Al-faadh Al-Quran says (my translation) on page 115
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"It is a name for the lit fire of God. It is said it is an Arabized word of Persian origin. (The Persian version being) Jihnaam. And God knows best."
If I have offended you with this truth forgive me. This is one of the things that I lament the most about Quranists...the linguistic license and conjecture. It is not acceptable. You cannot take the pieces that you like and fabricate the rest according to your likings. That is dishonest and false. God does not like the dishonest, the false and those who conjecture.
Salaam
Hello,
Jahannom does indeed take its root in Jiim-Nun-(Nun), just as Jannah (or more exactly said Jannateh) has its root in the same one. And whether my qualifications are sufficient or not is up to the beholder and you can have you opinion of course. I am a devoted researcher and I have made a thorough analysis on what I am working on.
Jahannom is a descriptive phrase where is a substituted letter rather than alif in (jaan) for example and is part of the word's grammar as well. Jahannom means morphologically (in the literal word order) "Outer Attached Integrity (There)Of" (talking about the condition of a person since every person here in this World is attached to "the Flesh". Jann , the two letters alone, means Outer Integrity and is referring to "the Bodily". In case you did not know this, Jann refers to one's dress/clothing and can easily be discovered through ancient Arabic lexicons in case you do not trust my very word. on the other hand, it means "Body", as it is an object form "Outer Integrity Object Attachment (third-person/external/otherly)".
I am not conjecturing and this is a breakthrough in exposing the general corruption over the centuries. If you would ever realize how right I am you would give yourself a facepalm. I have touched the language secrets of both Arabic and Aramaic and I am well involved in this to give a comment about it. And I fight against every criticizer because I know how biased they are. You and everyone else are combating me because I threaten your little sphere with my sensible input. You are defending a religious sect and therefore you are feeling endangered, but you have never been thinking logically on your own.
Everything I say one way or another makes sense, and mostly because it has its basis in Quran after figuring out what it in truth actually does say.
Do you know what makes those Arabic scholars you talk about unqualified? Because they are biased and they take in things as the ultimate truth and never really think on a larger scope whether the language was right to begin with and therefore they are studying a false language.
And did you know that it was Persian clerics who corrupted faith at whole and created the Islam sect? Do you take their word for Jahannom as something worth anything of truthfulness?
But I am not offended, I know you are misled and suffer from the deception and grave delusion they have imposed on you. However I urge you to truly study things without that tunnel-vision.
You seem too traditional to even be able to be receptive to this. I am not making an assault on your religion and you can continue if you like and the only thing in my intention is to give you honest advice in case you would reflect and find anything at all of what I ever write on this forum to make sense. You are unfortunately soaked up too much in that doctrine of yours to appreciate anything different even if there is great logic in it rather than the typical hedonistic religion with an objectified deity which needs worship and throws people in some kind of eternal Hell which is redundant to begin with. To do something like throwing people in Hell takes emotionalism and instinct due to anger and there simply is no anger in God and God does not seek revenge, and this is an impulse of Satan. To a fully logical and rational God, simulating a Hell scenario in order to punish lost souls is simply a redundant practice, it has no use, nothing will improve through this and it is just like someone is seeking a vendetta. That is quite hedonistic and typical human, would you not think God is better than that? It is not quite as empathetic for being an almighty Rabb. In fact people throw themselves into this kind of living. Why do you think people are born blind or misshaped or whatever affection? Is it because God punishes innocent people or because they suffer the consequences of another lifetime for what they did themselves?
Jahannom is a "Purgatory", simply said, the sectarians have only abused the term and turned it to what they liked it to be themselves. The Jews said according to the sectarian interpretation that they will only suffer Hell for a specific time and this is also something that Jews did say and they were right. They will suffer the consequences of time spent in "Hell" depending on their shortcomings. The interpreters of Quran knew about this and fabricated a text which opposed that view since it contradicted their own religious doctrine. But in fact these Jews were right, time in "Hell" (Jahannom) is only depending on how well you perform during your stay here on Earth. It is a kind of Purgatory. Historical religious information is not always wrong, it just takes looking in the right place. In case you did not know it, in elder monotheistic Abrahamic faith understanding, Hell did not exist but it is a later invention. You will barely find any mention of Jahannom in the "Old Testament". The reason it exists is because people severely misread sentences containing "Naar" and "Jahannom" in a way it is not supposed to be read. Thrown into Jahannom is very poorly translated usually because it rather says that one is "put to be stuck to Flesh" basically. The people when Jesus lived knew the World was a trap (or at least his disciples) and a place where you were stuck and asked Jesus on how to be saved. But traditional Hell is as improperly understood as it can be.
Isaiah once said "The one who commits a sin will suffer the consequences of something to the entirety of the deed", but you probably do not even know who Isaiah was. Isaiah is not even mentioned in the sectarian version of Quran because the incompetent interpreters were not even able to locate him linguistically (or they deliberately left him out). For your information, Isaiah is mentioned in chapter 36 and the quote of Isaiah is mentioned there too. Same goes for finding the 'Ten Commandments' out explicitly in Quran, the sectarian version does not even mention of them despite that the 'Ten Commandments' are mentioned already in chapter 2 if one is able to understand the text properly. The first time in Quran they are mentioned as "the pair of ten" (referring to the two stones/tablets they were written on), and the traditional interpreters were talking about some flimsy story about Moses putting forth his rod to break open a rock so that 12 springs gush forth.
Your friends who brought you the interpretation you have and love miss A LOT about the talking about empathy in (the real interpretation of) Quran. There is a lot talking about Satan, but they never explain what Satan is rather than talk nonsensically about it.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Man of Faith,
Please show me your linguistic sources for jahannam coming from the root janna. Thanks. We'll take it from there. If you cannot bring your proof then recognize that your opinion is based on conjecture and nothing more. Allah does not like those who conjecture.
Salam
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Hello csmith,
Any religion that teaches reincarnation rejects some of the most fundamental axioms of Islamic faith. We live, we die, then comes judgement, which leads to either eternal Paradise or eternal damnation. That is the meaning of life.
I think those who say that are fairly wise actually. Why the Hell would the most advanced being in existence deal in petty hedonistic revenge?
We are here to get through here purified and complete. It is just for the Rabb to delete (let to cease) any undesired specimens when their interim is over. In this case they get absorbed into this World. If you are a revengeful person or seek punishment this only testifies to your own lack of empathy, but would you conceive that the most flawless Rabb would be that primitive in origin?
For that logic you do not even need any scripture to see. You make your Rabb very undeveloped and crude.
This reasoning collides with the Islam sect's doctrine, but it does not necessarily mean it is wrong. In fact the clerics and scholars in the age of Jesus had similar views and they were heavily opposed by him. It is the Pagan delusion. Islam is Judaism 2.0 and you can particularly find similarity in what the Pharisee sect taught.
To attempt to convince anyone that the Quran teaches reincarnation by subtle twisting of the semantics of certain Arabic terms ignores the central message of the scripture as a whole.
Yet you believe that we are reincarnated into Heaven or Hell. The question is what those two are and what religious scholars have made of them. Heaven is ethereal and it has no hedonistic nature while Hell is fleshly, and you have body, and that the sectarian interpretation can even admit in its flimsy state. This interpretation EVEN admits that one is given a new skin once the previous one is burned up, also meaning Hell is with humans in anthropomorphic design.
Unfortunately for such as you, Quran is utterly misinterpreted when it refers to some kind of Jannah (Jannateh) positively because that is exactly what you do not wish for but yet you have been deceived into thinking it is some kind of hedonistic paradise. Surely it is hedonistic, but that is also not the ultimate destiny and a wise person would hardly call it paradise. Both Jannah (Jannateh) and Jahannom share the same root. You do not seek Jannah, the wise person seeks asema (poorly translated Heaven), but that place has no hedonistic paradise although you could say it has an ethereal paradise and there you will be an Angel like Gabriel and Michael. No need for hedonistic leisure though because you are rid of your body with such needs, you will be better than that and you will rule in there.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Man of Faith,
Please show me your linguistic sources for jahannam coming from the root janna. Thanks. We'll take it from there. If you cannot bring your proof then recognize that your opinion is based on conjecture and nothing more. Allah does not like those who conjecture.
Salam
It is about Arabic/Aramaic (Semitic) grammar, I have analyzed the word for you right here and explicitly told you how it is. If you are not willing to accept that you can have your opinion that it is conjecture. To me it does not matter actually and I only gave you an opportunity to receive enlightenment.
Arabic words are structured as such that they produce what they like to say based on the order of letters in succession. Therefore the closely resembling and share their origin. And the is like I said not really part of the root but a variable in the word structure.
It is like saying and has no whatsoever relationship to each other linguistically and I doubt you would argue against that notion. Yet you appear to argue against the same logic above just because it does not come from your flimsy scholars. The only difference between Rahm and Rahman is that Rahman is an adverb, i.e. Al-rahman al-raheem means something like "totally complete" (or utterly complete depending on choice of words). Rahm is also used to describe a woman's uterus because the baby is COMPLETED in there (i.e. completer). Like this Arabic is very primitive and you say the exact description for everything you like to say and it is yet logical.
The way I presented you Arabic, that streamlined Arabic really is. It is very stiff and almost mathematical, but it is very exact and easy to understand despite that people have wreaked havoc upon it.
If you choose to believe in your scholars then go ahead. It is basically your loss in terms of information. There is no need for you to turn hostile. We are merely discussing.
God developed Arabic and Aramaic and it is structured down to the very letter in an exact manner, and the hints are there in Quran. The famous initials introducing 14 chapters are hints for the perceptive and open-minded reader that they should look at the individual letters to be able to understand the whole language and script. The secret is in the Semitic letters you are probably very familiar with. Each letter means something fundamental. The one who manages to figure out each of these letters' meaning also have the true key to the language itself.
Many have wondered why Semitic languages lack vowels but that is because they do not need vowel markers to begin with as the letters themselves have names. You merely pronounce the beginning of each ancient letter at every consonant and the vowel sound is generated by itself. A majority of speakers actually mispronounce their language due to ignorance despite possessing the names of the letters. That is because a bunch of incompetent clerics thought they had some sort of exclusive right to religious scriptures. That does not help anyone of them out of their blindness in order that they manage their way out of this World, nor anyone of those who follow them blindly either.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace all
To me, when I thought of the christian concept of inherited original sin, it sounded very odd. But later, I have realized that it only sounded odd because I thought of it as someone committing a sin and then subsequent, innocent generations having to pay for it, unfairly. This way of looking at it assumed that all subsequent generations of Adam and Eve (assuming they were two individuals from whom the rest of humanity came) were/are disconnected from Adam and Eve in every sense except DNA. Now, I find this way of looking at it not very "enlightened".
These days, I can accept the concept of original sin. It is inherited only in the sense that we are all human beings, who are born in a chain of generations. It is not however that we inherit the sin/punishment just because there is a DNA link between generations.
Rather, in a simplified and fable style way of describing it, I see it like God has a bag of souls in his possession. These souls all got a bit confused and lost track of reality. To let people find out for themselves who things are, God lets the souls be born into flesh bodies on Earth, to taste the consequences of their own ideas and decisions. The point is to show us that we cannot live (or do anything) without God. We'll discover this the hard way through life, so that we can re-establish a sober point of view... to reconnect.
All souls have sinned by losing touch with reality. This is the original sin, not committed only by Adam and Eve (assuming they are two individuals), but by all .All souls are being born into human form. It is a punishment, and lesson, and wakeup call, and blessing... all in one. So it seems the sin/punishment is inherited, but only in a chronological way. Nobody will suffer someone else's sins. God's system is not unfair or unjust.
Tell me, does this make sense or not. Does it sound fair or not. Does it sound quranic or not?
Peace -
Anyways, I will leave you to your sect and I do not seek quarrel. You are more absorbed with doctrine than to actually reflect upon your origin and more about the behavioral part of what you call "Islam" and why you should follow the instructions relayed by the prophets. Those who know best know that it is to combat your own instinct, or rather the one from the body you have been forced to be attached to which is not the real you. Every commandment's innate reason for existing is not primarily obedience to God but for your own sanity. The more you stumble on every stone the more absorbed in this world you will become. The commandments are sincere advice and not dogmatic law. The one who has learned anything seeks detachment from typical influence of their own body. Be wary of the primate.
Be safe
Amenuel -
To me, when I thought of the christian concept of inherited original sin, it sounded very odd. But later, I have realized that it only sounded odd because I thought of it as someone committing a sin and then subsequent, innocent generations having to pay for it, unfairly. This way of looking at it assumed that all subsequent generations of Adam and Eve (assuming they were two individuals from whom the rest of humanity came) were/are disconnected from Adam and Eve in every sense except DNA. Now, I find this way of looking at it not very "enlightened".
There is no original sin, Zulf. We were placed in the Flesh as a matter of testing and the sins are ones done by you consciously or unconsciously depending on your mental capability. Your Rabb created your Spirit as a kind of "seed" in His own image and put you inside a contradiction which is your very Body and this is where you are right now at this very moment and you can either cultivate your own Spirit to make it develop or you can have it diminish, consciously or unconsciously, because you did not care about it and chose to be absorbed in this World, this contradiction. You kept "eating from the fruit of the tree" rather than abstaining from it. In partiality the "account of Eden" is yet truthful but there are many interpretation errors. Satan that entices is the Body's built-in instinctive drive and not some kind of snake/serpent and eat entices to "eat from the fruit" constantly. It is a kind of allegory. "Eating from the tree" (allegorical) is to indulge in this World and be involved in its vanity.
That the Bodies emerge or are manifested when they are "eating from the tree" is because then they will be aware of its instinctive drive and will do actions with their Bodies in their involvement in this World. The wise reader of this ancient text would take it highly for its metaphorical nature.
Sadly, not so bright clerics and scholars have messed up and given their own hedonistic viewpoints and they have tried to add a hedonistic 1 + 1 that because they origin from a hedonistic paradise this is their return. That is not at all true from any point of view. The "eating from the tree" and "discovering their bodies" is EXACTLY what they are NOT supposed to do and their reward is also NOT having to succumb to the temptation of "eating from the tree" once the testing interim is over and they are released from the influence of Satan's (the instinct's) temptation. All one has to do is avoid Satan; it might sound simple but it is in fact not. First of all they will not live "normal" lives and they will have to endure a massive amount of peer pressure, not to mention if they are handsome/sweet and the opposite gendered Body will charm them or they realize their own instinctive sexuality and live that out in full.
By your sins you "punish" yourself and there is no God punishing you but "what goes around comes around". The decaying of your Spirit you are yourself responsible for and no one else. The main consequence is merely that you become lifeless in Spirit, you do not really exist. That is the worst kind of condition I think one can be in, to not really exist, and the worst part is that the people are generally not bright enough to realize it either because they are so utterly deluded. And the deluding factor is your own Body, the "Flesh" causes delusion on you, because you basically become it and the Flesh is not alive but dead, it is like an automated process.
Christians are not entirely wrong when they believe in sons (or daughters) of God and they were not the only ones either. One just have to put it in the right perspective. Each person contains in this world of two parts; Body and Spirit, and God is Father (Generator) of the Spirit (because He created the Spirit) while a Body is father of the Body and its physical features have no real relationship to God at all that way. It is not much different from how an animal reproduces and an animal has no Spirit. God created the Body too obviously albeit spiritless, but that was as a spiritless beast acting according to a predictable pattern and this is every person's trap and contradiction which they must not succumb to.
Be safe
Amenuel -
I was actually an Arabic linguist in the Navy
Which country's Navy?
About Adam and his spouse, I haven't drawn any conclusion about whether they were the first humans because of verses such as
And, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."230It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss.3539
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Man of Faith,
I will just say two things.
You said
"It is like saying and have nothing to do with each other"
This quote of yours shows that you have almost no knowledge of Classical Arabic grammar and forms. Please read the books that I recommended in my previous post to Mr. Smith. The addition of alif and noon in a way that doesn't imply dual is a known wazn. It can imply the informational noun as well as a strong active form. Hungry is jaw3aan, angry is ghadbaan, thirsty is dham'aan or ghatshaan and I can go on and on. But jahannam shares no known wazn that would add a haa into the middle of the word or add a meem at the end. I have never seen a wazn like this. You have clearly made this up. Check W. Wrights Grammar of an Arabic Language and his sections on Noun Measures and Forms. The informational nouns are 3irfaan (knowledge) and ghufraan (forgiveness.)
As for that Arabic/Aramaic Semitic stuff...I'll just say this. You cannot define Spanish words using Latin and you cannot define Italian words using Spanish. As someone who studied Portuguese and Spanish the false cognates are abundant. All Romance languages come from Latin and are forms of Latin but they are their own languages, separate from each other and separate from Latin. The same goes for Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic and Amharic and whatever their Proto-Semitic mother language was.
Case closed brother. I hope you can see the light. Studying the Quran is not about Semitic etymology. Studying the Quran is about acquiring the correct CLASSICAL ARABIC meaning of its words and duly applying them with the principles of CLASSICAL ARABIC grammar and syntax. It is NOT about finding some illusive PROTO-SEMITIC meaning of a root and applying it to the Quran or trying to act like Arabic and Aramaic cognates are interchangeable. We should NEVER act like we can substitute the meaning in one language for the word in another. This is a FRAUDULENT way of trying to influence the Quran's meanings.
Salaam
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Which country's Navy?
About Adam and his spouse, I haven't drawn any conclusion about whether they were the first humans because of verses such as
And, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."230It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss.3539
There are ayas where those in the Garden are spoken of as distinctly plural. adam is the species not the male or the individual. As such species it is handled as singular or the couple of the species as dual.
Salaam
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Salaam As-Salaatayn,
You keep going back to one point in particular that I completely disagree on. Your logic is basically that Adam and Eve were sent to Earth as a punishment, so being on Earth must be a punishment for us too, and so we must be born with some original sin, else we are being punished for nothing. This is faulty logic and it underpins the rest of your beliefs about Adam and Eve.
Some people are born with horrible illnesses, while others are born into poverty, but these can not be punishments. If they were, they would be equal - we would all be punished equally for the same original sin. In fact, life is just not fair.
The justice that brings fairness comes once we are dead. It does not matter whether life deals you good cards or bad ones. Each individual has their own journey to make. In the afterlife, we will be treated justly, and any disparities in this world are fully accounted for.
You might lead an enjoyable life, like many people here do, or it might be horrific, like a child born to suffer until an early death. Neither of those lives are rewards or punishments though. They are always tests. Everyone has their own test which is unique to them. Only Allah appreciates the subtleties of these deeply complex existences, and He will consider everything of relevance when we are judged.
Adam and Eve were banished from Eden as a punishment, and according to a plan. Allah always knew what they would do, as Allah is not bound by time, waiting to find out what happens in the end. Time is part of Creation. He knows everything, always and all at once. We have free will, but Allah does not need to wait to see what we will opt to do, as He always knows everything, and as such, it is trivial for Him to plan for us to end up in exactly the situation we find ourselves in, which is meant to test us.
This is a world of trials and tribulations, and we were always going to end up here almost immediately. The angels foresaw what would happen, but only Allah understood the reason why it was to happen. That is an example of why we should not try to second guess His reasons.
Whenever I come across someone promoting original ideas, I always start by considering how this fits into the religion that we already have. Anything radically different is safe to dismiss as the product of that individual's own ramblings. The Quran is a clear and complete guide. We can just read it and accept the message it presents. Any claim that is at odds with the clear and obvious message of the Quran is not Quranic.
Many people on here try and promote unusual interpretations of words or passages, or poorly tested chains of logic, ignoring the basic fact that the guidance is clear. The Quran never requires complex and controversial linguistic or logical (or numerological) exercises for its guidance to be understood. Of course, the Quran contains mysteries. Maybe someone else will be guided by them. Maybe they are there for some other reason. Our job is not to make perfect sense of every aspect of reality. Our job is to be Muslims, and the Quran helps us to do that by guiding those that Allah wishes to guide by it.
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Csmith,
I think you should re-read what you wrote and then think about it.
Salaam.
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Or it is you who have no knowledge of Classical Arabic as-salatiin,
What I wrote makes perfect sense.
But we are all allowed to have opinions and it is YOUR opinion that I do not know Arabic.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Csmith,
Consider this, the Quran says that all things come from God, good and bad. It also says that the bad that we suffer here in this life is from our own deeds. It says that God tries us and it says that God punishes us. But can a trial not also be a punishment and a punishment a trial. If God wants us to turn away from evil through the bad that happens to us in this life then that must indeed be the case. Would you like verses?
And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the patient, Who says, when afflicted with calamity ?To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return? They are those on whom (descend) Blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance. (Al-Baqarah 2155-157)
In another verse, Allah Almighty says
He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (Al-Mulk 672)
Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because of the things your hands have wrought, and for many (of them) He grants forgiveness. (Ash-Shura 4230)
2211 And there is, too, among befalls him, he is satisfied with Him; but if a trial assails him, he turns away utterly, losing this world and the life to come this, indeed, is a loss beyond compare!
4731 and most certainly We shall try you all, so that We might mark out those of you who strive hard and are patient in adversity for We shall put to a test all your assertions.
518 The Jews and the Christians say "We are the children of Allah and His beloved ones." Ask them, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay! In fact you are human beings like others which He has created. He forgives whom He pleases and He punishes whom He pleases. To Allah belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the final refuge."
Note that 518 can be saying "Why is he punishing you for your sins?."
Salaam -
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=blw
This life is our second chance. Not our final punishment, but a punishment that serves as a trial. God can raise our ranks or lower them as he wills with how he tries us here, and it is our choice to hold tight to him or to deviate. If this life were not a time for redemption we would have been created for paradise. It makes no sense for us to suffer the same fate as Adam and Eve, who when first created were created for paradise and were only sent to the earth as a trial and a period of redemption.
Salaam
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Some people are born with horrible illnesses, while others are born into poverty, but these can not be punishments. If they were, they would be equal - we would all be punished equally for the same original sin. In fact, life is just not fair.
Your logic is ok, but only under certain assumptions that themselves may not be valid. Like
Who says we are all equally blind? Why would everyone's punishment or test be the same if we are blind to varying degrees? The "original sin" may be same for all in type, but may differ in extent and degree.The justice that brings fairness comes once we are dead. It does not matter whether life deals you good cards or bad ones. Each individual has their own journey to make. In the afterlife, we will be treated justly, and any disparities in this world are fully accounted for.
Indeed. We all have personal journeys,.. and what does that tell us? It tells us that there is a variable that differes in value between people. How could this express itself? Perhaps that we are dealt different cards. Different tests.
I do agree that there is justice in all that is dealt to us. Perhaps we just don't understand the system of justice in play.
You might lead an enjoyable life, like many people here do, or it might be horrific, like a child born to suffer until an early death. Neither of those lives are rewards or punishments though. They are always tests. Everyone has their own test which is unique to them. Only Allah appreciates the subtleties of these deeply complex existences, and He will consider everything of relevance when we are judged.
If the test involves suffering, couldn't we call it a punishment (with built-in blessing)? Why are we tested at all? Isn't it because we have defaulted at some point in some aspect? Wouldn't the test then be both test, reward, punishment and blessing, all in one? Obviously life can be horrible. Why be put to such things just for being tested? "No hard feelings, the horrors are not a punishment, just a test". Nope, I'm not convinced.
In any case, perhaps we could say that the test will become what we make of it. It can take the shape of a punishment if we sow such seeds, and it could be really developing and good, if we sow seeds like that.... all while the test is going on.
Peace
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Zulf,
The original sin version does not add up. We are all born in very different conditions and it would be very unfair that some people are born in poverty, starvation and suffering while some are not if there is just one original same sin in each case. It does not help to claim it has to do with individual testing because it is immensely unfair to expose certain people to great pain while some are not.
I personally find that our spirits grow with evolution and we have an ultimate goal of finding a way out and that is by developing the Spirit so much that it exceeds this Word. We grow under delusion so to say. The World itself is the test and whether we realize we are better than it or succumb to it because we did not use logic and reason to contemplate.
I do see no problem with that humans have evolved throughout history because it is okay with my "theory" compared to sectarian religion. The Spirit lasts while the Body goes in cycles. Either the Spirit develops or it vanishes in a World that was designed to corrupt. Troublemakers in the World are generally said decayed Spirits that are not much more than the animals they are in.
In the Biblical Gospels Jesus is seen healing a blind person while saying "You are forgiven". Why is he saying that? It is as if his blindness is a consequence of something and he says that for a person born blind. There are many hints to confirm the concept of reincarnation in the Gospel testimonies.
I find many logical problems with the typical sectarian doctrine of one death and one resurrection either into Heaven or Hell. Even the traditional interpretation of Hell does not make sense. It gives God the desire of revenge and it has no use as it does not lead into anything useful. It is making God primitive.
Be safe
Amenuel