4:24 translation - not correct?
-
Salam,
I agree with you the translation is not clear. I have reviewed the entire subject and below is the best rendition of the verses that I could see
424 And the emancipated from the women?except those committed to by oath?is God?s decree over you. And it is permitted for you to seek beyond this category that you employ your wealth, to be emancipated, not for illicit sex. So, for those of them you find pleasing, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation; and there is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the emancipated female believers, then from those committed to by oath of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness. To be emancipated?not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Once they are emancipated, then any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is upon those already emancipated of the punishment. This is for those who fear a hardship from among you, but if you are patient it is better for you. And God is Forgiver, Merciful.
This category is not a "forbidden" one (i.e. 424 is not a carryover of 423), rather, it is a new topic where there is an emphasis that we seek to marry the emancipated/mature women Vs. the young dependent/immature ones. This can be seen again in 55 below
55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And the emancipated females from those who are believers, and the emancipated females from those who have been given the Book before you; on condition that you give them their dowries. To be emancipated?not for illicit sex or taking lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
-
I like this translation of "emancipaed" to render muHSanaat. I am not sure whether that would be the definitive rendering (who could know that?) but definitely it is a great improvement on what I have seen before.
Could that be related somehow with the use of the verb nakaHa referred to women? The more usual formulation is that women are married off (verb ankaHa) and that men marry (verb nakaHa), but the Qur'an seems to make a distinction as to the women to whom each verb is applied. All occurrences seem to use nakaHa when men marry and ankaha when women marry, that is they, wome are married off, but there are to instances in which they are not and they marry by themelves
2.230. And if he divorces her , she shall thereafter not be lawful unto him unless she first takes another man for husband(verb nakaHa); then, if the latter divorces her, there shall be no sin upon either of the two if they return to one another-provided that both of them think that they will be able to keep within the bounds set by God for these are the bounds of God which He makes clear unto people of knowledge.
2.232.
And when you divorce women, and they have come to the end of their waiting-term, hinder them not from marrying (verb nakaHa) other men if they have agreed with each other in a fair manner. This is an admonition unto every one of you who believes in God and the Last Day; it is the most virtuous for you, and the cleanest. And God knows, whereas you do not know.This seems to indicate that for a first marriage social guarntees are required as to marrying off a woman, but that uon a later marriage she should suffice to herself as guarantee, Or indeed that there is some sort of emancipation through marriage.
May be, you Layth, or somebody else, if you have studied the matter further, could shed some more light on it.
Salaam
-
This category is not a "forbidden" one (i.e. 424 is not a carryover of 423), rather, it is a new topic where there is an emphasis that we seek to marry the emancipated/mature women Vs. the young dependent/immature ones. This can be seen again in 55
Peace,
True cannot prohibit marriage in one verse allow it to these women in another; although emancipated mature women runs into issues with 244 and 2423 where slander of these women has dire consequences not applicable to younger dependent women?
In my reading these are antonyms
mu'antin/guarded/chaste (f/p) other than musfitin/promiscuous (f/p)
mu'inna/guarded/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p)
{siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery}
To resolve issue 425 continuance with last prohibition mentioned 424 not cohabit between two sisters ? and the chaste women except if already the case ...
423 prohibited on you mothers yours and daughters yours and sisters yours and paternal aunts yours and maternal aunts yours and daughters the brother and daughters the sister and mothers yours the ones whom breastfed they you and sisters yours from the suckle and mothers womenfolk yours and step daughters yours the ones whom in guardianship yours from womenfolk yours the ones whom entered you in them so if not were ye of entered you in them so not blame on you and wives/cohabitants sons yours the ones from loins yours and that thou assemble/cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of
424 wal-mu'antu/and the guarded/chaste from the womenfolk (i.e. continuation of above prohibition not to cohabit between the guarded/chaste women) except what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours writ the god on you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours mu'inna/guarded/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame on you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of
425 and whom not is able from among you awlan/height that married al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours from fatayatikumu/maidens yours (i.e. promiscuous ones in the community) the believers (f/p) and the god of knowledge in faith yours some you from others so betroth ye them (f/p) by permission family theirs (f/p) and give ye them rewards theirs in the right mu'antin/guarded/chaste (f/p) other than musfitin/promiscuous (f/p) and not who take in secrecy so when wedded so if commit they in immorality so onto them (f/p) half what on al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) from the punishment such to whom fears the hardship from among you and that patient ye of good for you and the god forgiver merciful
55 the day (today) permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them wal-mu'antu/and the guarded/chaste (f/p) from the believers (f/p) wal-mu'antu/and the guarded/chaste (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs mu'inna/guarded/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded in/place of the faith so surely wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers
244 and the ones accusing al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) furthermore not comes they of with quartet (i.e. group of four) witnesses so skin/lash ye them eighty skin/lash and not accept ye of of them as witnesses ever and surely those themselves the disobeying
2423 surely the ones accusing al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) the unaware the believers (f/p) cursed they of in the world and the afterlife and for them punishment mighty 2424 day it witness on them the tongues (i.e. sayings) theirs and hands (pledges) theirs and feet (deeds) theirs in what be they of doing
-
Seen that way, unless someone come up with an "unseen" solution I find it very difficult to match the word in every aya.
For the sake of trial ?could it be that muhsanat are women who have been married but are no longer married either widows or divorced, or abandoned?
Salaam
-
Salam,
The subject of "muhsanaat" is very interesting socially when I read the topic. The Quran is basically giving preference to "emancipated" women and asking that they should be first choice for anyone wanting to marry.
This is exactly the opposite of how middle eastern and other regional societies operate in that the young girl (not the emancipated one) is given the preference as she is seen to be more immature and more pure. The result many women being unable to marry if mr right did not come and sweep them off their feet before they hit the peak of the early 20's!
On the word itself, I disagree with most translators who switch its meaning from verse to verse (one time she is protected by marriage, one time she is protected by chastity, etc.) .
-
*Could it be that the Qur'an is doing precisely the opposite of the repputation adscribed to "islam", and it is enjoining in fact, as you say, to prefer women with already certain age or maturity and at the same time surrounding the marriage of non emancipated or inmature with plenty of conditions to be met, like the agreement of family.
This mushsanat, like the mamalakat... seems to be a term which, since we do not know the society in which it was revealed we stumble. Of course mamalakat could also be males, and in that sense givee one more hint, but muhsanat, seems at least as elusive.
Salaam
Salaam
-
Since in the first 20 ayas of 24, we are given to understand very clearly that unless an accuser comes with four witnesses, all women are muhsanaat, because it states clearly the curse of those who accuse muhsanaat, I wonder hw does that match the "emancipated" meaning, unless we are assuming that in order to consider somebody for a punishment the person must be "emancipated" or, I suppose that is where he exception for punishment comesin reducing it to half...
Ideas?
Salaam
-
And the emancipated from the women?except those committed to by oath?is God?s decree over you.
This is void of any sense.
The subject of "muhsanaat" is very interesting socially when I read the topic. The Quran is basically giving preference to "emancipated" women and asking that they should be first choice for anyone wanting to marry.
It is also void of sense.
This sentence is part of the preceding complex compound sentence, linked by conjunction particle. It is in nominative case. Thereby is the proxy subject noun of passive verb.
Grammatical and syntctical analysis of 424.
-
Since in the first 20 ayas of 24, we are given to understand very clearly that unless an accuser comes with four witnesses, all women are muhsanaat, because it states clearly the curse of those who accuse muhsanaat, I wonder hw does that match the "emancipated" meaning, unless we are assuming that in order to consider somebody for a punishment the person must be "emancipated" or, I suppose that is where he exception for punishment comesin reducing it to half...
Ideas?
Peace, all women are presumed mu'antin/chaste (f/p) other than musfitin/promiscuous (f/p) unless proven otherwise.
This is void of any sense.
Grammatical and syntctical analysis of 424.Peace, you wrote?
?Further, all the protected-wedded those already in married state those already in married state amongst the Womenfolk are forbidden upon you people, the believers ?
Using cross-reference it contradicts.
423 prohibited on you ?
424 and the protected-wedded those already in married state from the womenfolk except what possess aymnukum ?How is one able or not able to marry an already married women?
425 and whom not is able from among you awlan/height that married the protected-wedded those already in married state the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum from fatayatikumu the believers (f/p) ?
so when wedded so if commit they in immorality so onto them (f/p) half what on the protected-wedded those already in married state from the punishment ?55 the day (today) permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them and the protected-wedded those already in married state from the believers (f/p) and the protected-wedded those already in married state from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs?
What about accusing not married women; single, widowed, and divorced ? no punishment?
244 & 2423 surely the ones accusing the protected-wedded those already in married state the unaware the believers (f/p) cursed they of in the world and the afterlife and for them punishment mighty 2424 day it witness on them the tongues (i.e. sayings) theirs and hands (pledges) theirs and feet (deeds) theirs in what be they of doing
-
I notice something regarding the antonyms muHSan - Musaafih
I do not think they are full antonys, but rather in the circumstance of possible marriage. The three times they appear is in the context of proposing or wanting marriage, the three times of them. It is as it were a preventive injunction, telling the men what they should not do, telling them to go about it without inducing the women into unwanted intimacy or accepting it. The musafaHaat, is the way the menn should not approach women on the pretext or on the grounds of marriage.
Also morphologically he two antonyms ar very different. Whereas MuhSan is verb form IV and refers the person to him or herself, musaafiH is something you do to others. That is with musaafiH, femine or masculine, the Qur'an is telling not to do a certain thing, it is not qualifying the person as something descriptive of him or her, whereas muHSan describes the person.
So where those two words appear together, that is the three times they appear at all they are pointing out at an action that should not be done and which is opposed to the quality of the person taken as his or her normal or assumed characteristic of muHSan.
So in fact it is true, everybody is muHSan unless proved otherwise as provided for in 4.24.
So elaborating on the "emancipated" line, MuHSanaat would be those women socially fully capable at all purposes. A young girl would be married off, would also be morally MuHSana, but socially would still want protection.
More ideas?
-
?Further, all the protected-wedded those already in married state those already in married state amongst the Womenfolk are forbidden upon you people, the believers ?
Using cross-reference it contradicts.
423 prohibited on you ?
424 and the protected-wedded those already in married state from the womenfolk except what possess aymnukum ?How is one able or not able to marry an already married women?
Cross-reference must take care of the collocates wherever a speicific word is used. The collocates also influence the meanings of a specific word in different contexts.
-
The word muhsanat simply means any woman married or unmarried performing the role ahsanat farjaha <a href="http//tanzil.net/#6612">6612</a>
If the word muhsanat is qualified by nakaha it refers to unmarried woman
If the word muhsanat is qualified by nisai it refers to married woman
The word nisai simply means married woman but in few exceptions e.g. <a href="http//tanzil.net/#411"> 411</a>, <a href="http//tanzil.net/#4176"> 176</a> it refers to female gender and if it is qualified by nakaha e.g. fainkihoo ma taba lakum mina alnnisai as in <a href="http//tanzil.net/#42">42</a> then it refers to unmarried woman
Therefore Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisai in <a href="http//tanzil.net/#424"> 424</a> is referring to a married muhsanat and cannot be married except if she is ma malakat aymanukum then that is permisable
-
Cross-reference must take care of the collocates wherever a speicific word is used. The collocates also influence the meanings of a specific word in different contexts.
Therefore Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisai in <a href="http//tanzil.net/#424"> 424</a> is referring to a married muhsanat and cannot be married except if she is ma malakat aymanukum then that is permisable
Peace Mazhar and bagyane -- please clarify if they are "married" or "not married" in these three occurrences?
423 prohibited on you ?
and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of424 wal-mu'antu/and the ?? from al-nisi/the womenfolk
except what possess aymnukum/right hands yours
writ the god on you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours mu'inna/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame on you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of55 today permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them
wal-mu'antu/and the ?? from the believers (f/p)
wal-mu'antu/and the ?? from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards/dowry theirs
mu'inna/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded in the belief so surely wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers -
The word muhsanat simply means any woman married or unmarried performing the role ahsanat farjaha <a href="http//tanzil.net/#6612">6612</a>
If the word muhsanat is qualified by nakaha it refers to unmarried woman
If the word muhsanat is qualified by nisai it refers to married woman
The word nisai simply means married woman but in few exceptions e.g. <a href="http//tanzil.net/#411"> 411</a>, <a href="http//tanzil.net/#4176"> 176</a> it refers to female gender and if it is qualified by nakaha e.g. fainkihoo ma taba lakum mina alnnisai as in <a href="http//tanzil.net/#42">42</a> then it refers to unmarried woman
Therefore Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisai in <a href="http//tanzil.net/#424"> 424</a> is referring to a married muhsanat and cannot be married except if she is ma malakat aymanukum then that is permisable
How do you arrive to those understandings?
Also what does ahsanat farjaha mean? What is this ahsanat?
In all other occasions where the farj (plural furuj) of men or women are spoken about the root HSn is not used. It is always referred to with the verb HafiDha not AHSana, the expression aHSanat farjaha is exclusively used referring to Maryam.
There must be a difference between ahSana farj and HafiDha farj.
Salaam
-
Peace,
True cannot prohibit marriage in one verse allow it to these women in another; although emancipated mature women runs into issues with 244 and 2423 where slander of these women has dire consequences not applicable to younger dependent women?
In my reading these are antonyms
mu'antin/guarded/chaste (f/p) other than musfitin/promiscuous (f/p)
mu'inna/guarded/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p)
{siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery}
To resolve issue 425 continuance with last prohibition mentioned 424 not cohabit between two sisters ? and the chaste women except if already the case ...
423 prohibited on you mothers yours and daughters yours and sisters yours and paternal aunts yours and maternal aunts yours and daughters the brother and daughters the sister and mothers yours the ones whom breastfed they you and sisters yours from the suckle and mothers womenfolk yours and step daughters yours the ones whom in guardianship yours from womenfolk yours the ones whom entered you in them so if not were ye of entered you in them so not blame on you and wives/cohabitants sons yours the ones from loins yours and that thou assemble/cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of
424 wal-mu'antu/and the guarded/chaste from the womenfolk (i.e. continuation of above prohibition not to cohabit between the guarded/chaste women) except what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours writ the god on you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours mu'inna/guarded/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame on you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of
425 and whom not is able from among you awlan/height that married al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours from fatayatikumu/maidens yours (i.e. promiscuous ones in the community) the believers (f/p) and the god of knowledge in faith yours some you from others so betroth ye them (f/p) by permission family theirs (f/p) and give ye them rewards theirs in the right mu'antin/guarded/chaste (f/p) other than musfitin/promiscuous (f/p) and not who take in secrecy so when wedded so if commit they in immorality so onto them (f/p) half what on al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) from the punishment such to whom fears the hardship from among you and that patient ye of good for you and the god forgiver merciful
55 the day (today) permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them wal-mu'antu/and the guarded/chaste (f/p) from the believers (f/p) wal-mu'antu/and the guarded/chaste (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs mu'inna/guarded/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded in/place of the faith so surely wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers
244 and the ones accusing al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) furthermore not comes they of with quartet (i.e. group of four) witnesses so skin/lash ye them eighty skin/lash and not accept ye of of them as witnesses ever and surely those themselves the disobeying
2423 surely the ones accusing al-mu'anti/the guarded/chaste (f/p) the unaware the believers (f/p) cursed they of in the world and the afterlife and for them punishment mighty 2424 day it witness on them the tongues (i.e. sayings) theirs and hands (pledges) theirs and feet (deeds) theirs in what be they of doing
I know I am way off topic but I would like to know where you got these crude word for word translations please
-
True cannot prohibit marriage in one verse allow it to these women in another; although emancipated mature women runs into issues with 244 and 2423 where slander of these women has dire consequences not applicable to younger dependent women?
I can see the problem and it is not small.
Still I feel that there is something in the "emancipated" core.
Salaam
-
I know I am way off topic but I would like to know where you got these crude word for word translations please
Peace -- they are my translation showing which word is translated to what exactly and not crude rather closest grammatically and consistent throughout which also make for faster searches, analysis, study etc.
Likewise don't have to rely on inconsistent, poor, and non cross-referenced translations which often times have non-existent words inserted to obscure meanings or try to spin it to some weird ideology parroted over the ages to the present e.g. this topic.
-
Salam
Noon waalqalami
The word muhsanat in 424 qualified by the word alnnisai means a chaste married woman
Please consider the followings
From Verses 423 up to 424 there is a list of the prohibited women to marry with the exception of a chaste married woman among the ma malakat
In your or the quoted translation, the words mina alnnisai were translated as from women?s folk instead of from married women
A part from the women listed in 423-24 all others are allowed
In verse 55 the listed women are allowed for marriage but not prohibited therefore the muhsanat therein are not married
huruf
Please observe the followings
If the word muhsanat is qualified by nakaha it refers to unmarried woman
- The phrase yankiha almuhsanati in 425 means to marry an unmarried muhsanat
The word nisai simply means married woman
- The phrase Ya nisaa alnnabiyyi in 3332 is specifically addressing the wives of the prophet not any other woman in the household, such daughters or sisters and mother if available the word nisaikum in 2187 and Nisaokum in 2223 also means your wives
The word ahsanat and muhsanat are derived from the same root hsn so it is mary and other women
Correction hasanat farjaha instead of ahsanat farjaha
ahsanat farjaha is a superlative of hasanat farjaha so there is a typing error in my earlier quote, I intend to write hasanat farjaha
I don?t think there is difference between the word hasana and hafidha but you can state the difference please.
-
Peace -- they are my translation showing which word is translated to what exactly and not crude rather closest grammatically and consistent throughout which also make for faster searches, analysis, study etc.
Likewise don't have to rely on inconsistent, poor, and non cross-referenced translations which often times have non-existent words inserted to obscure meanings or try to spin it to some weird ideology parroted over the ages to the present e.g. this topic.
Could I please have access to these translations?
