4:24 translation - not correct?

Noon_waalqalami

Salam

Noon waalqalami

The word muhsanat in 424 qualified by the word alnnisai means a chaste married woman

Please consider the followings

From Verses 423 up to 424 there is a list of the prohibited women to marry with the exception of a chaste married woman among the ma malakat

In your or the quoted translation, the words mina alnnisai were translated as from women?s folk instead of from married women

A part from the women listed in 423-24 all others are allowed

In verse 55 the listed women are allowed for marriage but not prohibited therefore the muhsanat therein are not married

Salaam and thank you bagyane, lets analysis further...

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

Hence, (Mgh,) , (S, Msb, K,) aor. , (K,) inf. n. (S, Mgh, K) and and (K) and ; (S, * Msb, * TA and , (S, Mgh, K,) inf. n. ; (Mgh and ; (K said of a woman, She was, or became, continent, or chaste; or she abstained from what was not lawful nor decorous; syn. (S, Mgh, Msb, K or she was, or became, married; or she had a husband; (K as also and (Ham p. 101, in which is likewise mentioned in this sense or signifies she was, or became, pregnant; (K as though pregnancy protected her from a man's going in to her. (TA.)
Also The in the K, is erroneously put for . (TA.) see what next follows. (S, Mgh, Msb, K) and (S, Mgh, K) and (K) and (S, K) and (Th, S, Mgh, Msb, K) and , (Th, S, Msb, K,) applied to a woman, Continent, or chaste; or abstaining from what is not lawful nor decorous, (Th, S, Mgh, Msb, K,) or from that which induces suspicion or evil opinion (Sh and TA in explanation of the first of these epithets or married; having a husband (K or has both of these significations (Ham p. 101 and accord. to Th, (S,) , with fet-h only, has the latter signification; (S, Mgh, * Msb; *) and means caused to be continent or chaste, or to abstain from that which is unlawful or indecorous, by her husband (Mgh ) and this epithet is also applied to a woman emancipated and to one having become a Muslimeh (Az, TA the pl. of is and and the pl. of and is and the former of which (&#1606 also signifies pregnant, (K,) applied to women (TA the pl. , in the first instance of its occurrence in ch. iv. of the Kur, is read by all , (A 'Obeyd, TA,) meaning having husbands; (A 'Obeyd, Mgh, Msb, TA because when such women are made captives, their marriage-tie is cut but in other instances, some read thus, understanding it in the sense last explained; and others read , as meaning that have become Muslimehs (A 'Obeyd, TA in the Kur iv. 29, it means free women and in the Kur v. 7, continent, or chaste, women (Mgh ) is the more common in the language of the Arabs. (Fr, TA.)

These are possibilities depending on context and dialectical marks (believe is the issue). The question is which meaning fits best?

Fortified by self-control being chaste
244 and the ones accusing al-mu'anti/the fortified/chaste (f/p)

Fortified by marriage
424 and the fortified/married? (f/p) from the womenfolk except what possess right hands yours

Fortified by pregnancy
424 and the fortified/pregnant? (f/p) from the womenfolk except what possess right hands yours

Fortified by prior marriage i.e. widowed/divorced
425 and whom not is able from among you awlan/stature that married the fortified/prior married (f/p) the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum/right hands yours from fataytikumu/maidens yours the believers (f/p) and the god of knowledge in faith yours some you from others so betroth ye them (f/p) by permission family theirs (f/p) and give ye them rewards theirs in the right mu'antin/chaste (f/p) other than musfitin/promiscuous (f/p) and not who take in secrecy so when u'inna/fortified (wedded) so if commit they in immorality so onto them (f/p) half what on al-mu'anti/the prior married (f/p) from the punishment such to whom fears the hardship from among you and that patient ye of good for you and the god forgiver merciful

Again the question which meaning is best?

55 this day permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them?

and the fortified? (f/p) from the believers (f/p)
and the fortified? (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs mu'inna/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m) - one who commits fornication or adultery} and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded with the belief so surely wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers

Logically these are inapplicable for 55 above
? Fortified by marriage
? Fortified by pregnancy

Hence either of these two?

? Fortified by self-control or being chaste
? Fortified by prior marriage i.e. widowed/divorced

Could I please have access to these translations?

Peace HP_TECH, it's a work in progress believe 70% words translated then need to revisit fine-tune e.g. it took 3+ years for 3 inheritance verses. Happy to provide any particular verses like above and usually do them by subject matter as time permits.

HP_TECH

Peace HP_TECH, it's a work in progress believe 70% words translated then need to revisit fine-tune e.g. it took 3+ years for 3 inheritance verses. Happy to provide any particular verses like above and usually do them by subject matter as time permits.

I commend your efforts and work.
If I can do anything to facilitate such work I'd be glad to help.
I was wondering if I could get 43 and 4129 if possible please

I wanted to buy a Quran translation for my siblings besides the Freeminds translation
Do you have any personal recommendations that would suit someone freshly introduced to The Quran in a min biased way?

I know I'm still way off topic sorry

huruf

Salam

Noon waalqalami

The word muhsanat in 424 qualified by the word alnnisai means a chaste married woman

Please consider the followings

From Verses 423 up to 424 there is a list of the prohibited women to marry with the exception of a chaste married woman among the ma malakat

In your or the quoted translation, the words mina alnnisai were translated as from women?s folk instead of from married women

A part from the women listed in 423-24 all others are allowed

In verse 55 the listed women are allowed for marriage but not prohibited therefore the muhsanat therein are not married

huruf

Please observe the followings

If the word muhsanat is qualified by nakaha it refers to unmarried woman

The phrase yankiha almuhsanati in 425 means to marry an unmarried muhsanat

The word nisai simply means married woman

The phrase Ya nisaa alnnabiyyi in 3332 is specifically addressing the wives of the prophet not any other woman in the household, such daughters or sisters and mother if available the word nisaikum in 2187 and Nisaokum in 2223 also means your wives

The word ahsanat and muhsanat are derived from the same root hsn so it is mary and other women

Correction hasanat farjaha instead of ahsanat farjaha

ahsanat farjaha is a superlative of hasanat farjaha so there is a typing error in my earlier quote, I intend to write hasanat farjaha

I don?t think there is difference between the word hasana and hafidha but you can state the difference please.

I feel that you again state your own conclusions but you do not explain how or why you arrive at those conclusions.

You say

The word ahsanat and muhsanat are derived from the same root hsn so it is mary and other women

Correction hasanat farjaha instead of ahsanat farjaha

ahsanat farjaha is a superlative of hasanat farjaha so there is a typing error in my earlier quote, I intend to write hasanat farjaha

aHSanat farjaha, aHSanat is not a superlative but third person femine singular of verb aHSana and it should be noticed that this expresion, the verb aHSana or even the root HSn in connection with farj is only used in the whole of Qur'an in the case of Maryam, ot with anybody else, male or female. I do not see any ground to put in a pool all words of the root HSn and apply them wholesale to all women.

I don?t think there is difference between the word hasana and hafidha but you can state the difference please.

I do not think that the Qur'an uses the words indifferently or absolute synonims. The Qur'an uses words with for some reason.

What is the difference? That is the question, that is the question I am asking. There is a difference clear cut in the wording, so why is that difference. The Qur'an says exactly what it wants to say. Why jump to a side when it has consistently enjoined for people concerning the furuj (plural of farj) to HafaDHa, and then only in the case of Maryam used aHSana.

We know the Qur'an uses many words which are closely related, bu I do not think that they are indiferent, each one of them is used for a reason, not by chance or luck.

Whe the Qur'an uses the passive participle of verb aHSana, MuHSana, only applied to women and not to the farj of women, whereas HafaDHa is applied indistinctly to the farj of men and women.

Also the passive voice is used in 4.25 referred to women uHSinna.

On the other hand, the active participle of the verb aHSana, muHSin is only used with men.

But on the other hand the use of aHSana with Maryam is made as doer of the action of the verb.

There is a difference.

All this I think is full of significance, we must fid the key, because it may enlighten us as tot he proper meaning of each of the terms used and their full scope.

I commend those who have worked to ghrow light on the whole, even if the full success is not yet at hand. In sha' Allah it will come in time.

Something commes to my mind but for the time I leave it here.

Salaam

huruf

I think I can put forward a posible understanding of muHSanaat and related subjects.

It occurs to me that Layth was right bringing in the concept of emancipation but also Noon's contention

"True cannot prohibit marriage in one verse allow it to these women in another; although emancipated mature women runs into issues with 244 and 2423 where slander of these women has dire consequences not applicable to younger dependent women?"

It occurs to me that muHSana is a woman capable and liable for sexual consent.

A woman accused of a sexual offence uncapable and non liable could never be accused of a sexual offence. It is what we see in practice today when having sex with a woma under certain age is a crime, even if you say she consented because she has not yet reached the age of consent. That also would entail, logically consent for marriage.

That would exlplain also the language of Qur'an when it uses the verb AnkaHa when it speaks of a new marriage of a woman who has been married and uses the verb nakaha whe she is married off. Also the use of the pasive voice in 4.25, uHSinna.

So might we say that Maryam assumed full capacity ad liability for sexual consent by herself, by declaring it herself?

We could see how far this goes when dealing with the MMA and and also the part of 24.33 where it speaks of not forcing the girls into sex(?) when they (the girls) want taHassun (that their ability to refusebe rcognized).

Salaam

Mazhar

ahsanat farjaha is a superlative of hasanat farjaha so there is a typing error in my earlier quote, I intend to write hasanat farjaha

It is a verbal sentence.

Verb Perfect; third person; singular; feminine; [Form-IV; Suffixed Feminine marker; Subject pronoun hidden; Verbal noun. (1)2191(2)6612=2
/ + / -

HP_TECH

Salam,

The subject of "muhsanaat" is very interesting socially when I read the topic. The Quran is basically giving preference to "emancipated" women and asking that they should be first choice for anyone wanting to marry.

This is exactly the opposite of how middle eastern and other regional societies operate in that the young girl (not the emancipated one) is given the preference as she is seen to be more immature and more pure. The result many women being unable to marry if mr right did not come and sweep them off their feet before they hit the peak of the early 20's!

On the word itself, I disagree with most translators who switch its meaning from verse to verse (one time she is protected by marriage, one time she is protected by chastity, etc.) .

Hi Layth,

This is completely off topic but I reached out to you a few weeks ago brother and never got a response.
Did you receive my message? Or should I resend it to you?

Thanks

Noon_waalqalami

I commend your efforts and work.
If I can do anything to facilitate such work I'd be glad to help.
I was wondering if I could get 43 and 4129 if possible please

I wanted to buy a Quran translation for my siblings besides the Freeminds translation
Do you have any personal recommendations that would suit someone freshly introduced to The Quran in a min biased way?

I know I'm still way off topic sorry

Peace, it's actually on topic since they're all related need to be cross-referenced and taken in context. Prohibited married and widowed can be ruled out since already covered under divorce verses and if husband is deceased women have to wait likewise if pregnant hence logically fortified/chaste seems to fit and only way to resolve is prohibited also to cohabit with more than one fortified/chaste same as prohibition with simultaneous cohabit with two sisters (read through verse #'s) and likewise chapter 24 in context prohibits marrying known fornicators and/or adulterers unless they reform.

42 and give ye of the bereaved wealth theirs and not exchange the bad with the clean/good and not thou eat/consume ye of wealth theirs to wealth yours surely it be sin immense of
43 and if fear you (address to whom it may concern) that not thou deal justly ye of in the bereaved so sponsor marriage (i.e. via work; see 2827 what father in law did) ye of what suitable for you from the womenfolk (i.e. bereaved females of marriageable age) twosome and three and quadruple so if fear you that not thou just ye of so one (f/s) or what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours such lowest that not thou oppress ye
44 and give ye of the womenfolk handouts theirs graciously so if remit for you about thing from it soul of (i.e. on their own self) so eat/consume it satisfaction ease
45 and not give the foolish wealth yours the one made the god for you stand/support of and provide ye them therein and clothe ye them and speak ye of to them speech of fair manner of
46 and test ye of the bereaved until when attained they of the marriage so if perceive you from them right way of/rational so deliver ye of toward them wealth theirs and not thou eat/consume ye it wastefully and hastily of lest/that grow up they of and who be ample of so should refrain and who be in need of so let eat/consume in the fair manner so when deliver you toward them wealth theirs so witnesses ye of on/over them and sufficient in the god reckoner of

423 prohibited on you mothers yours ... and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of
424 and the fortified/chaste (i.e. are also prohibited to cohabit between) from the womenfolk except what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours writ the god on you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours fortified/chaste (m/p) other than promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame on you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of
425 and whom not is able from among you awlan/abundance of that married the fortified/chaste (f/p) the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours from fataytikumu/maidens yours the believers (f/p) and the god of knowledge in faith yours some you from others so sponsor marriage (negotiate work) ye them (f/p) by permission family theirs (f/p) and give ye them rewards theirs in the fair manner fortified/chaste (f/p) other than promiscuous (f/p) and not who take in secrecy so when u'inna/engaged so if commit they in immorality (promiscuous ones at engagement?) so onto them (f/p) half what on the fortified/chaste (f/p) from the punishment such to whom fears the hardship from among you and that patient ye of good for you and the god forgiver merciful
426 intends the god to clarify for you and guide you ways the ones from before you and turn on you and the god knower wise

4127 and they seeking decision your in/concerning the womenfolk say the god gives ruling you in them and what recited on you in the book in/concerning bereaved the womenfolk the ones whom not thou gives them what written for them and thou hoping that thou marry ye them (f/p) and the vulnerable from the youngsters and that stand up ye of for the bereaved in the justice and what thou do ye of from good so surely the god be in it knowledgeable
4128 and if woman fears from husband hers recalcitrant of or aversions of so not blame on them dual that reconcile of between them dual reconcile of and the reconcile best and brought the souls/selves the selfishness and if improved they of and pious they of so surely the god be in what thou working aware of
4129 and never thou be able ye of that thou just ye of between the womenfolk and in case ardent desire yours so not inclined ye of each the tendency so leave her like the suspended one (i.e. hanging) and if thou reconcile ye of and pious ye of so surely the god be forgiver of merciful of
4130 and if are separated will enrich the god each from abundance his and be the god encompassing wisdom of

55 the day (this day) permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them and the fortified/chaste (f/p) from the believers (f/p) and the fortified/chaste (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs fortified/chaste (m/p) other than promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m) - one who commits fornication or adultery} and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded in the belief so surely wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers

241 surah/chapter have descended we it and made obligatory we it and descended we of therein signs clear that may you thou remembering
242 the fornicatress adulteress yours and the fornicator adulterer yours so skin/lash ye of each one of them dual hundred skin/lashes and not seize you in them dual kindness in judgment the god if be you believing in the god and the day the last and let affirm/witness punishment their dual party from the believers
243 the fornicator adulterer not married except fornicatress adulteress or idolatress and the fornicatress adulteress not married her except fornicator adulterer or idolater and prohibited such on the believers
244 and the ones accusing the fortified/chaste (f/p) furthermore not comes they of with quartet (group of four) witnesses so skin/lash ye them eighty skin/lash and not accept ye of of them as witnesses ever and surely those themselves the disobeying
245 except the ones repented they of from after such and reconciles they of so surely the god forgiver merciful
246 and the ones accusing spouses theirs and not that be for them witnesses except of souls theirs/themselves so affirmation one of them four affirmations in the god surely he to from the truthful
247 and the fifth that curse the god on him if be from the liars
248 and it prevents upon her the punishment that she affirms four affirmations in the god that he to from the liars
249 and the fifth that wrath the god on her if be from the truthful
2410 and if not favor the god on you and mercy his and that the god returning wise
2411 surely the ones came they of with the lie group from among you not think it evil of for you rather it good for you to each person from them what he earned from the harm and the who turned magnify it from/among them for him punishment mighty
2412 why not when heard ye it think the believing and the believers (f/p) in themselves best of and say they of this lie clear
2413 why not came they of on it with quartet witnesses so when not comes they of with the witnesses so surely those near the god themselves the liars
2414 and if not favor the god on you and mercy his in the world and the afterlife surely keep you in what had rushed glibly you in it punishment mighty
2415 when thou received it with the tongues (i.e. sayings) yours and thou saying with mouths yours what not is for you in it knowledge and thou thought it insignificant and it near/unto the god mighty
2416 and if not when thou heard ye it speaking you not it being for us that we communicate you in this majesty you this falsehood mighty
2417 advises you the god that return/accustomed ye of to similitude it ever if be you believers
2418 and makes clear the god for you the signs and the god knower wise
2419 surely the ones loving that spread/make common the immorality in/with the ones believe they of for them punishment of dire in the world and the afterlife and the god knows and you not thou knowing
2420 and if not favor the god on you and mercy his and that the god kind merciful
2421 O you the ones believe ye of not follow ye of steps the devil and who follows steps the devil so surely he directs in the immorality and the wrong and if not favor the god on you and mercy his not pure from among you from one/anyone ever and however the god purifies whom wills and the god hearer knower
2422 and not let swear possessors the bounty from among you and the amplitude of means that give they of possessors the relatives/near and the needy and the evacuating in way the god and let pardon they of and let reprieve they of that not thou loving that forgives the god for you and the god forgiver merciful
2423 surely the ones accusing the fortified/chaste (f/p) the unaware the believers (f/p) cursed they of in the world and the afterlife and for them punishment mighty
2424 day it affirms/witness on them the tongues (i.e. sayings) theirs and hands (pledges) theirs and feet (deeds) theirs in what be they of working
2425 day therein will pay in full them the god creed theirs the truth and shall understand they that the god he the truth the clear
2426 the evil (f/p) for the evil (m/p) and the evil (m/p) for the evil (f/p) and the pure (f/p) for the pure (m/p) and the pure/innocent being (m/p) for the wholesome (f/p) surely those innocent from what are saying for them forgiveness and provision noble
2427 O you the ones believe ye of not enter ye of houses of other than houses yours until asked permission ye of and greeted ye of on/among family its such yours good for you that may you thou remembering
2428 so if not find ye of therein anyone of so not enter it until permission given for you and if said for you go back ye of so go back ye of it purest for you and the god in what thou working knower
2429 not is on you blame that enter ye of houses of other than inhabited therein provision for you and the god knows what thou revealing and what concealing
2430 say to the believers lower they of from vision/gaze theirs and that safeguarded they of intimate parts theirs such purest for them surely the god aware in what thou doing
2431 and say to the believers (f/p) should lower from gaze theirs and that safeguarded they (f/p) intimate parts theirs (f/p) and not display adornment theirs (f/p) except what cognizance from it and to strikes they (f/p) with cover theirs over bosoms theirs and not display adornment theirs (f/p) except to husbands theirs or fathers theirs or fathers husbands theirs or sons theirs (f/p) or sons husbands theirs or brothers theirs or sons brothers theirs or sons sisters theirs (f/p) or nisahinna/womenfolk (i.e. female relatives) theirs or what possess aymnuhunna/right hands (pledges) theirs (f/p) or the attendants/walkers behind other than possessors the desire from the menfolk or the young the ones not cognizant they of on private the womenfolk and not strikes they (f/p) with feet theirs surely make evident what conceal from adornment theirs (f/p) and turn ye of to the god all/united of you the believing that may you succeeding
2432 and sponsor marriage ye of the single (m/p) from among you and the righteous (m/p) from devotees yours (m/p) and devotees yours (f/p) if are being they of poor enriches them the god from bounty his and the god extensive knower
2433 and let refrain the ones not finding marriage of until enriches them the god from bounty his and the ones seeking the book/ledger from what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours so write them if knew you amongst them good of and give them from wealth the god the one brought you and not disliked ye of fataytikum/maidens yours on to the prostitution if desire that fortify (remain chaste) of to seek ye of goods the life the world and whom he dislike them so surely the god from after coercion theirs (f/p) forgiver merciful

2826 said she one them dual O father that hire him surely best whom that hire thou the strong the trustworthy
2827 said surely I want that sponsor marriage you one daughters dual mine these two on that thou work for me eight ijajin/migrations (two yearly summer and winter) so if complete thou ten of so from near (up to) you and not I want that make difficult upon you thou will find me if wills the god from the righteous

Mazhar

424 and the fortified/chaste (i.e. are also prohibited to cohabit between)

for?ti?fy
(past and past participle for?ti?fied, present participle for?ti?fy?ing, 3rd person present singular for?ti?fies)
transitive verb

make place safer to make a place less susceptible to attack by building or creating defensive structures such as walls, ditches, or ramparts
make something stronger to strengthen or reinforce the structure of something
fortify a sea wall
add ingredients to something to add further ingredients to food or drink in order to improve its flavor or add nutrients (usually passive)
breakfast cereal fortified with vitamins
encourage somebody to give somebody physical, mental, or moral strength or encouragement
make something more powerful to make something more powerful or persuasive

chaste
(comparative chast?er, superlative chast?est)
adjective

abstaining from sex abstaining from sex on moral grounds
sexually faithful not having extramarital sexual relations
pure in thought and deed behaving in a pure way, with no immoral thoughts
plain plain, simple, and unadorned in style

huruf

425 and whom not is able from among you awlan/abundance of that married the fortified/chaste (f/p) the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum/right hands (pledges) yours from fataytikumu/maidens yours the believers (f/p) and the god of knowledge in faith yours some you from others so sponsor marriage (negotiate work) ye them (f/p) by permission family theirs (f/p) and give ye them rewards theirs in the fair manner fortified/chaste (f/p) other than promiscuous (f/p) and not who take in secrecy so when u'inna/engaged so if commit they in immorality (promiscuous ones at engagement?) so onto them (f/p) half what on the fortified/chaste (f/p) from the punishment such to whom fears the hardship from among you and that patient ye of good for you and the god forgiver merciful

I come back to the question of what the muHSana is and the suggestion that muHSana would be the opposite of musaafiHa.

There is a big IF to that in the sense that trying to explain muHSana by means of musaafiH or musaafiHa since the two times that we have musaafiH and the once we have musaafiHa in the whole of Qur'an is precisely in connections with muHSanaat, so in fact we do have that musaafiH would rather stand in the need to be explained by muHSana rather than the opposite since we have many other instances from which to come to the understading of muHSana.

There is only a single occurrence of the root fsH appart fromthose three times which appears as apposed to muHSana, which is in this aya 6.145 which speaks about the foods forbidden and is translated as blood poured forth and translates a passive participle of safHa, to pour out, spill.

So the question comes, the meaning of promiscuity or fornication comes from the Qur'an or comes fromafter the Qur'an was twisted to suit a certain outlook or even agenda?

Because if the root HSn has as basic meaning to be strong by itself, how can it come to mean being chaste regardless of your own strength by yourself.

The pun, (by the usual way puns come about) with sfH (pouring forth) making it a synonim of fornicating is obvious, but the question is whether the Qur'an goes into that kind of puns. Some times it does, but it makes it obvious. But nothing obvious in the three times it it apart from the one with the blood of animals.

So what can be closer to gushing for than pushing forth. muHSana as opposed to musafiha, ?firm as opposed to pusher over?

I think those three cases where muHSana(at) is opposed to musaafihat or musaafihin (masculine) are rather more explanatory of the msaafiH tha of the muHSana.

So what should be sought in the case in this part

Translated as
and give ye them rewards theirs in the fair manner fortified/chaste (f/p) other than promiscuous (f/p)

could be understood as

and give them their salaries as is fair they being consnting and not pushing over (feeling forced?) Bear in mmid that in this case the woman is in a situation of dependency and inferiority where she may feel that by marrying she may gain something and that by rejecting she may loose an oportunity and she might feel psuhed to given sexual consent in the hope of acknowledged as wife after that. So that in fact it would be a forced consent. Compare this again with 24.33

And do not force your girls into lust when wht the want is to be able to not consent (that is owners of the consent)

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

I come back to the question of what the muHSana is and the suggestion that muHSana would be the opposite of musaafiHa.

Salaam huruf,

Whatever the meaning cannot be urrimat/prohibited and also uilla/permitted in another verse.
Hence only way to resolve contraction urrimat/prohibited also to cohabit between them as well.

423 urrimat/prohibited on you mothers yours...
and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of
424 and the chaste (i.e. are also prohibited to cohabit between) from the womenfolk except what possess aymnukum/right hands yours writ the god on you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours chaste (m/p) other than promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame on you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of

55 this day uilla/permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them and the chaste (f/p) from the believers (f/p) and the chaste (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs chaste (m/p) other than promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m) - one who commits fornication or adultery} and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded with the belief so surely wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers

Simply enter different meanings for above (chaste, married, emancipated, etc.) see which fits?

huruf

Salaam huruf,

Whatever the meaning cannot be urrimat/prohibited and also uilla/permitted in another verse.
Hence only way to resolve contraction urrimat/prohibited also to cohabit between them as well.

423 urrimat/prohibited on you mothers yours...
and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of
424 and the chaste (i.e. are also prohibited to cohabit between) from the womenfolk except what possess aymnukum/right hands yours writ the god on you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours chaste (m/p) other than promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame on you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of

55 this day uilla/permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them and the chaste (f/p) from the believers (f/p) and the chaste (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs chaste (m/p) other than apromiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m) - one who commits fornication or adultery} and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded with the belief so surely wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers

Simply enter different meanings for above (chaste, married, emancipated, etc.) see which fits?

I amsorry Noon, but I do not get what yousay and that I have highlighted in orange. I do not know what you mean by contrctionn or the meaning of the whole sentence. Could you explain, please?

Another question

where it says in 4.24

...

Which is translated as

And married women except those your right hands possess. the decree of Allah upon you.

Please pay attention to what I have underlinedin orange. This part is translated more or less the same in all translations and what bothers me is that it is invariably translated as if the kitaaba were the subject, but the thing is that kitaaba is accusative, so how does it come that it is turned ino the subject?

Wht is the explanation for that? I cannot see any except that it is har to find the meaning if not takenn as a subject, but on the other hand, a subject it cannot be because it is accusative.

Thank you for any light on this.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

I amsorry Noon, but I do not get what yousay and that I have highlighted in orange. I do not know what you mean by contrctionn or the meaning of the whole sentence. Could you explain, please?

Salaam huruf, this verse is read straightforward...

55 this day uilla/permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them
wal-mu'antu (f/p) from the believers (f/p)
wal-mu'antu (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs (i.e. dowry)...

Therefore they are permitted for marriage cannot mean they prohibited in any other verses which is a contradiction and what's prohibited is not to cohabit between mu'antu same as with two sisters and should be read through verse numbers as such ...

423 urrimat/prohibited upon you ... and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two...424 wal-mu'antu (f/p) from the womenfolk except what possess aymnukum/right hands yours book/writ the god upon you...

Another question

where it says in 4.24

...

Which is translated as

And married women except those your right hands possess. the decree of Allah upon you.

Please pay attention to what I have underlinedin orange. This part is translated more or less the same in all translations and what bothers me is that it is invariably translated as if the kitaaba were the subject, but the thing is that kitaaba is accusative, so how does it come that it is turned ino the subject?

Wht is the explanation for that? I cannot see any except that it is har to find the meaning if not takenn as a subject, but on the other hand, a subject it cannot be because it is accusative.

Thank you for any light on this.

It's not married since married women are already prohibited by divorce verses.
It referees to book/writ ...

2101 and when came them messenger from near/with the god certified to what with them threw away group from the ones given they of the book book/writ the god behind backs theirs be they not knowing

3529 surely the ones reciting book/writ the god and guard they of the prayer and spends they of from what provide we them secretly and publicly desiring trade never perish
3530 will pay in full them reward theirs and increases them from bounty his surely he forgiver appreciator

huruf

Salaam huruf, this verse is read straightforward...

55 this day uilla/permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them
wal-mu'antu (f/p) from the believers (f/p)
wal-mu'antu (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs (i.e. dowry)...

Therefore they are permitted for marriage cannot mean they prohibited in any other verses which is a contradiction and what's prohibited is not to cohabit between mu'antu same as with two sisters and should be read through verse numbers as such ...

423 urrimat/prohibited upon you ... and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two...424 wal-mu'antu (f/p) from the womenfolk except what possess aymnukum/right hands yours book/writ the god upon you...

It's not married since married women are already prohibited by divorce verses.
It referees to book/writ ...

2101 and when came them messenger from near/with the god certified to what with them threw away group from the ones given they of the book book/writ the god behind backs theirs be they not knowing

3529 surely the ones reciting book/writ the god and guard they of the prayer and spends they of from what provide we them secretly and publicly desiring trade never perish
3530 will pay in full them reward theirs and increases them from bounty his surely he forgiver appreciator

Thanks for the xlanation of the first part.

For the second

Noon that is not the problem, the word kitaab is not the problem, the problem is the case ending, which is accusative in 4.24 without a subject who does somethig to the kitaab so that it deserve the accusative case. As I can see translators just go ahead and treat kitaab as ifit were a nominative and the subjec but as far as I can see it is not a subject but the bject of the ation of a subject which I don't see at first sight who is and which translators, as said, have not considered conveniente to look for, beaause they have treated kitaaba as if it were a nominative.

That is my problem, that is, that is the problem I can see and for the moment, I amlooking, cannot find a justification for it an the translators and tafsir have not helped.

Salaam

huruf

Noon, I am not sure I have understood you. What you say is that what is prohibited in 4.24 is

that a man has at the same time as wives two muHSanaat?
That a man cohabits (whether married or not) with two muHSanaat?

The whole of 4.23 would refer to cohabitation not marriage?

I mvery confused as towhat you mean it is said in the Qur'an.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

Noon, I am not sure I have understood you. What you say is that what is prohibited in 4.24 is

that a man has at the same time as wives two muHSanaat?
That a man cohabits (whether married or not) with two muHSanaat?

The whole of 4.23 would refer to cohabitation not marriage?

I mvery confused as towhat you mean it is said in the Qur'an.

Salaam

Peace huruf,

Yes 1 & 2 and only way to resolve with verse 55 which it starts with 422 ...

422 and not thou marry ye of whom married/had sex fathers yours from the womenfolk except what hence passed surely it be immorality and abomination and an evil way of 423 urrimat/prohibited upon you mothers yours and daughters yours and sisters yours and paternal aunts yours and maternal aunts yours and daughters the brother and daughters the sister and mothers yours the ones whom breastfed they you and sisters yours from the suckle and mothers womenfolk yours and step daughters yours the ones whom in guardianship yours from womenfolk yours the ones whom entered you (i.e. had sex) in them so if not were ye of entered you in them so not blame upon you and cohabitants/wives sons yours the ones from loins yours and that thou cohabit (simultaneous marriage) ye of between al-ukh'tayni/the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of 424 wal-mu'antu/and the chaste (f/p) from the womenfolk (i.e. also prohibited to cohabit/simultaneous marriage) except what possess aymnukum/right hands yours book/writ the god upon you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours mu'inna/chaste (m/p) other than musfina/promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame upon you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of 425 and whom not is able from among you abundance of that married al-mu'minti/the chaste (f/p) the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum/right hands yours from maidens yours the believers (f/p) and the god of knowledge in faith yours some you from others fa-inkihunna/so sponsor marriage (e.g. arrange work; see examples 2432 & 2827 what father in law offered) ye them (f/p) by permission family theirs (f/p) and give ye them rewards theirs in the fair manner mu'antin/chaste (f/p) other than musfitin/promiscuous (f/p) and not who take in secrecy so when u'inna/engaged so if commit they in immorality so onto them (f/p) half what upon al-mu'anti/the chaste (f/p) from the punishment such to whom fears the hardship from among you and that patient ye of good for you and the god forgiver merciful 426 intends the god to clarify for you and guide you ways the ones from before you and turn upon you and the god knower wise

bagyane

huruf
Mashar
Noon waalqalami

Thanks for your contribution and correction that ahsanat is not a superlative of hsanat
huruf

The word in the Quran that can be translated as emancipated is alhurru as in 2178 and some of its derivations as muharraran in 335, fatahreeru 492 and tahreeru 589 etc.
The word muhsanat is drived from the root word hsn which may simply means protect/preserve/resist/fortify etc the meanings are explicitly stated in the following verses of the Quran

425 Ohsinnathey assumed protection (they are married/they consummate)

1248 Tuhsinun you (in plural) have protected/preserved

2180 Lituhsinkum to protect you (in plural)

2433 Tahsunan to protect (remain chaste)

592 husuunuhum their protection (stronghold/fortresses)

5914 muhassanatin protected/fortified

As from the above it can be deduce that the word Ohsinna is opposite of fahishatan which means illegal sexual intercourse as appeared in 425 therefore muhsanat are women willing to remain chaste either by abstaining from extramarital or all sexual intercourse.

Noon_waalqalami

As from the above it can be deduce that the word Ohsinna is opposite of fahishatan which means illegal sexual intercourse as appeared in 425 therefore muhsanat are women willing to remain chaste either by abstaining from extramarital or all sexual intercourse.

Peace bagyane -- Yes after cross-reference, chaste makes sense consistently in context across all verses; here's a summary...

422 and not thou marry ye of whom married/had sex fathers yours from the womenfolk except what hence passed surely it be immorality and abomination and an evil way of 423 urrimat/prohibited upon you mothers yours and daughters yours and sisters yours and paternal aunts yours and maternal aunts yours and daughters the brother and daughters the sister and mothers yours the ones whom breastfed they you and sisters yours from the suckle and mothers womenfolk yours and step daughters yours the ones whom in guardianship yours from womenfolk yours the ones whom entered you (i.e. had sex) in them so if not were ye of entered you in them so not blame upon you and cohabitants/wives sons yours the ones from loins yours and that thou cohabit (simultaneous marriage) ye of between al-ukh'tayni/the sisters two except what hence passed surely the god be forgiver of merciful of 424 wal-mu'antu/and the chaste (f/p) from the womenfolk (i.e. also prohibited to cohabit/simultaneous marriage) except what possess aymnukum/right hands yours book/writ the god upon you and permitted for you what after such yours that seek ye of with wealth yours chaste (m/p) other than promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} so what enjoyment to you in it from them so gives ye them rewards theirs obligation and not blame upon you in what thou agree with them in it from after the obligation surely the god be knowledgeable wisdom of 425 and whom not is able from among you abundance of that married the chaste (f/p) the believers (f/p) so from what possess aymnukum/right hands yours from maidens yours the believers (f/p) and the god of knowledge in faith yours some you from others so sponsor marriage (e.g. arrange work; see examples 2432 & 2827 what father in law offered) ye them (f/p) by permission family theirs (f/p) and give ye them rewards (dowry) theirs in the fair manner chaste (f/p) other than promiscuous (f/p) and not who take in secrecy so when u'inna/engaged so if commit they in immorality so onto them (f/p) half what upon the chaste (f/p) from the punishment such to whom fears the hardship from among you and that patient ye of good for you and the god forgiver merciful 426 intends the god to clarify for you and guide you ways the ones from before you and turn upon you and the god knower wise

55 this day uilla/permitted for you the wholesome things and food the ones given they of the book permitted for you and food yours permitted for them wal-mu'antu/and the chaste (f/p) from the believers (f/p) wal-mu'antu/and the chaste (f/p) from the ones given they of the book from before you when has thou given them rewards theirs chaste (m/p) other than promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m) - one who commits fornication or adultery} and not ones taking secretly and whom disregarded in the faith so verily wasted deeds his and he in the afterlife from the losers

242 the fornicatress adulteress yours and the fornicator adulterer yours so skin/lash ye of each one of them dual hundred skin/lashes and not seize you in them dual kindness in judgment the god if be you believing in the god and the day the last and let affirm/witness punishment their dual party from the believers 243 the fornicator adulterer not married except fornicatress adulteress or idolatress and the fornicatress adulteress not married her except fornicator adulterer or idolater and prohibit such upon the believers 244 and the ones accusing the chaste (f/p) furthermore not comes they of with quartet (group of four) witnesses so skin/lash ye them eighty skin/lash and not accept ye of of them as witnesses ever and surely those themselves the disobeying 245 except the ones repented they of from after such and reconciles they of so surely the god forgiver merciful 246 and the ones accusing spouses theirs and not that be for them witnesses except themselves so affirmation one of them four affirmations in/by the god surely he surely from the truthful 247 and the fifth that curse the god on him if be from the liars 248 and it prevents upon her the punishment that she affirms four affirmations in/by the god that he surely from the liars

2423 surely the ones accusing the chaste (f/p) the unaware the believers (f/p) cursed they of in the world and the afterlife and for them punishment mighty 2424 day it affirms/witness on them the tongues (sayings) theirs and hands (i.e. pledges) theirs and feet (deeds) theirs in what be they of working

The_Realty

Peace bagyane -- Yes after cross-reference, chaste makes sense consistently in context across all verses; here's a summary...

422 ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry ye of ما whom نكح married/had sex اباوكم fathers yours من from النساء the womenfolk الا except ما what قد hence سلف passed انه surely it كان be فاحشه immorality ومقتا and abomination وساء and an evil سبىلا way of 423 حرمت ḥurrimat/prohibited علىكم upon you امهاتكم mothers yours وبناتكم and daughters yours واخواتكم and sisters yours وعماتكم and paternal aunts yours وخالاتكم and maternal aunts yours وبنات and daughters الاخ the brother وبنات and daughters الاخت the sister وامهاتكم and mothers yours اللاتى the ones whom ارضعنكم breastfed they you واخواتكم and sisters yours من from الرضاعه the suckle وامهات and mothers نساىكم womenfolk yours ورباىبكم and step daughters yours اللاتى the ones whom فى in حجوركم guardianship yours من from نساىكم womenfolk yours اللاتى the ones whom دخلتم entered you (i.e. had sex) بهن in them فان so if لم not تكونوا were ye of دخلتم entered you بهن in them فلا so not جناح blame علىكم upon you وحلاىل and cohabitants/wives ابناىكم sons yours الذىن the ones من from اصلابكم loins yours وان and that تجمعوا thou cohabit (simultaneous marriage) ye of بىن between الاختىن al-ukh'tayni/the sisters two الا except ما what قد hence سلف passed ان surely الله the god كان be غفورا forgiver of رحىما merciful of 424 والمحصنات wal-muḥ'ṣanātu/and the chaste (f/p) من from النساء the womenfolk (i.e. also prohibited to cohabit/simultaneous marriage) الا except ما what ملكت possess اىمانكم aymānukum/right hands yours كتاب book/writ الله the god علىكم upon you واحل and permitted لكم for you ما what وراء after ذلكم such yours ان that تبتغوا seek ye of باموالكم with wealth yours محصنىن chaste (m/p) غىر other than مسافحىن promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m.) - one who commits fornication or adultery} فما so what استمتعتم enjoyment to you به in it منهن from them فاتوهن so gives ye them اجورهن rewards theirs فرىضه obligation ولا and not جناح blame علىكم upon you فىما in what تراضىتم thou agree with them به in it من from بعد after الفرىضه the obligation ان surely الله the god كان be علىما knowledgeable حكىما wisdom of 425 ومن and whom لم not ىستطع is able منكم from among you طولا abundance of ان that ىنكح married المحصنات the chaste (f/p) المومنات the believers (f/p) فمن so from ما what ملكت possess اىمانكم aymānukum/right hands yours من from فتىاتكم maidens yours المومنات the believers (f/p) والله and the god اعلم of knowledge باىمانكم in faith yours بعضكم some you من from بعض others فانكحوهن so sponsor marriage (e.g. arrange work; see examples 2432 & 2827 what father in law offered) ye them (f/p) باذن by permission اهلهن family theirs (f/p) واتوهن and give ye them اجورهن rewards (dowry) theirs بالمعروف in the fair manner محصنات chaste (f/p) غىر other than مسافحات promiscuous (f/p) ولا and not متخذات who take اخدان in secrecy فاذا so when احصن uḥ'ṣinna/engaged فان so if اتىن commit they بفاحشه in immorality فعلىهن so onto them (f/p) نصف half ما what على upon المحصنات the chaste (f/p) من from العذاب the punishment ذلك such لمن to whom خشى fears العنت the hardship منكم from among you وان and that تصبروا patient ye of خىر good لكم for you والله and the god غفور forgiver رحىم merciful 426 ىرىد intends الله the god لىبىن to clarify لكم for you وىهدىكم and guide you سنن ways الذىن the ones من from قبلكم before you وىتوب and turn علىكم upon you والله and the god علىم knower حكىم wise

55 الىوم this day احل uḥilla/permitted لكم for you الطىبات the wholesome things وطعام and food الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتاب the book حل permitted لكم for you وطعامكم and food yours حل permitted لهم for them والمحصنات wal-muḥ'ṣanātu/and the chaste (f/p) من from المومنات the believers (f/p) والمحصنات wal-muḥ'ṣanātu/and the chaste (f/p) من from الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتاب the book من from قبلكم before you اذا when اتىتموهن has thou given them اجورهن rewards theirs محصنىن chaste (m/p) غىر other than مسافحىن promiscuous (m/p) {siin-fa-ha = musafihun (m) - one who commits fornication or adultery} ولا and not متخذى ones taking اخدان secretly ومن and whom ىكفر disregarded بالاىمان in the faith فقد so verily حبط wasted عمله deeds his وهو and he فى in الاخره the afterlife من from الخاسرىن the losers

242 الزانىه the fornicatress adulteress yours والزانى and the fornicator adulterer yours فاجلدوا so skin/lash ye of كل each واحد one منهما of them dual ماىه hundred جلده skin/lashes ولا and not تاخذكم seize you بهما in them dual رافه kindness فى in دىن judgment الله the god ان if كنتم be you تومنون believing بالله in the god والىوم and the day الاخر the last ولىشهد and let affirm/witness عذابهما punishment their dual طاىفه party من from المومنىن the believers 243 الزانى the fornicator adulterer لا not ىنكح married الا except زانىه fornicatress adulteress او or مشركه idolatress والزانىه and the fornicatress adulteress لا not ىنكحها married her الا except زان fornicator adulterer او or مشرك idolater وحرم and prohibit ذلك such على upon المومنىن the believers 244 والذىن and the ones ىرمون accusing المحصنات the chaste (f/p) ثم furthermore لم not ىاتوا comes they of باربعه with quartet (group of four) شهداء witnesses فاجلدوهم so skin/lash ye them ثمانىن eighty جلده skin/lash ولا and not تقبلوا accept ye of لهم of them شهاده as witnesses ابدا ever واولىك and surely those هم themselves الفاسقون the disobeying 245 الا except الذىن the ones تابوا repented they of من from بعد after ذلك such واصلحوا and reconciles they of فان so surely الله the god غفور forgiver رحىم merciful 246 والذىن and the ones ىرمون accusing ازواجهم spouses theirs ولم and not ىكن that be لهم for them شهداء witnesses الا except انفسهم themselves فشهاده so affirmation احدهم one of them اربع four شهادات affirmations بالله in/by the god انه surely he لمن surely from الصادقىن the truthful 247 والخامسه and the fifth ان that لعنت curse الله the god علىه on him ان if كان be من from الكاذبىن the liars 248 وىدرا and it prevents عنها upon her العذاب the punishment ان that تشهد she affirms اربع four شهادات affirmations بالله in/by the god انه that he لمن surely from الكاذبىن the liars

2423 ان surely الذىن the ones ىرمون accusing المحصنات the chaste (f/p) الغافلات the unaware المومنات the believers (f/p) لعنوا cursed they of فى in الدنىا the world والاخره and the afterlife ولهم and for them عذاب punishment عظىم mighty 2424 ىوم day تشهد it affirms/witness علىهم on them السنتهم the tongues (sayings) theirs واىدىهم and hands (i.e. pledges) theirs وارجلهم and feet (deeds) theirs بما in what كانوا be they of ىعملون working

So 424 is also a prohibition for polygamy, right?
Did I understand it wrong?