Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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Not the prayer one though, it's actually giving time for all these connections to take place...it may even be like one knows that female butts would be rising and falling in a submissive position there and maybe one of them is even hot and it could be in front of me, mustnotlookmustnotlook.can'thelpit.ilooked.imustlook type of situation where the scenario is already halfway there in someone's mind before they even start the activity...
My point, knowing that the activity is happening in front of you. It's like saying don't think of a pink elephant, and all of a sudden you start visualizing.
The solution isn't to minimize distractions. The solution is to train ourselves because reality is not going to conform to our comfort zones and those trying to control it and make it a certain way which is beneficial for themselves is only treading on other people's comfort zones or rights as they may be in this case or others. The same issue raised in praying together is used in many different places, like co-ed education for example.
I do not see any problem with having sexual "desires" towards others. It's natural, it's ok, it's even good up to some degree. However one should be capable of saying no to these desires, one should be capable of lowering the ego.
If a woman were to offer me sex, as a man I've got nothing to lose, not even society is going to think low of me, worst case scenario she's going to get pregnant, why should I care. However that's where lowering the ego is important, learn to reduce the desire to maximize one's own profit (whether it be materialistic or non-materialistic).I'm against trying to train ourselves like dogs (which I love).
I am of the honest opinion that unconscious thoughts are not controllable. Instead one should work on controlling one's lust.
For example, some people who are doing this are pedophiles, many pedophiles are victims of their sexual orientation, if one could simply train away one's own lust, they'd be the first ones to do so. Many of them get castrated and probably even hormone therapy so that they can control themselves. With them, it's a different case, their sexual desires are not "ok", and many of them know it and are trying their best to live normal lives.Why is only a sexual diversion the big issue here. A guy/girl could fart in front of you via their buttocks which I readily admit causes more than a couple minutes of actual consternation. I think that's a serious issue that we should be talking about way more than a woman's butt in front of a man since it happens often enough to cause entire ranks of the prayerful to lose focus rather than a couple horny guys.
rotfl
It isn't a "big" issue. It's the question of the topic.
The idea of someone "leading" a prayer in and of itself is weird. In my opinion!I don't get what the connection to praying is. Please explain how it relates?
I'm sure that this deserves a thread of its own.I'm not the one who started talking about clothes -X
But since clothes became such a big topic, and I got categorized as one who " a spiritual question concerning women into a clothes show".
I thought why not mention my ideas regarding clothes.
You're right though, it does deserve a thread of it's own.Sexiness is subjective. What may be sexy to you can be run of the mill to another guy or girl.
I meant the desire to be attractive should be left for the bedroom.
Many women are seeing other women as a threat, as rivals, the less clothes one starts wearing, the more other women will do the same, eventually the "norm" will change.
Imagine a woman walking around in leggings and a belly top in the year 1920. She'd immediately feel uncomfortable, because the people of back then would have reacted with a "wtf" expression.
Nowadays people start wearing more and more provocative clothes, so that they too can be considered "attractive". That's what I was getting at.
I agree that beauty is subjective.In either case, we need to work on ourselves since we can't heal the world and make it all alright but we do what little we can where we can.
Oh actually, I do plan on starting a fourth wave feminism, and even if I should fail, I hope to at least give birth to some sparks which may lead into a flame. I just need to put my hypotheses into a scientific work and I've got ideas for experiments.
I think we can partially influence other people.
Though this deserves another topic as well, and I don't plan on revealing my ideas. -
I have nothing, absolutely nothing against any member of this forum.
Oh that's nice to read D I've got nothing against you neither.
But when I see an arrow and see where it is going to hit and see it hitting, I am not going to shut up not for the sake of "good maners" do as if I hadn't seen where it was going to hit and where it hit.
What I am trying to tell you is that, I am not shooting my arrow towards that target. It may look so from your perspective, but it really isn't.
The fact is that such a simple thing as acting lead in prayers, has been turned into a gate for a greater purpose forget about prayers and women' espirituality or spirituality and comunion with God in general and let us return to the important thing in this world which is MALES and their requirements, exigences, perquisies, stattu quo...
I don't get the point of having a "person" or "group" lead a prayer in the first place.
Where did I ever say anything about males requirements, exigences, perquisies, stattu quo etc. etc.?
If you were to make a topic about that I'd probably position myself with you, however in this particular scenario, I have to , because of my personal understanding, take the opposite position.To start with
stand in front of men.Requirement number one for males to claim that leading prayers by a woman cannot be because she would stand in front of men.
Several times I have said that that is not necessary, she could be standing in front of women. If we have raws for men and raws for women, then she could stand in front of the women raws.
I admit that I haven't read all 23 pages of this thread. Never saw such a suggestion.
In that scenario, I have no problem with a woman leading the prayer, however the topic of this thread was a woman leading both men and women mixed behind her. different scenarios.It is simple enough, but it has been overlooked sysematically in the thread because, we do know, even if we won't accept that we know, we do know that the question of prayers is not the question, the question is the perquisites and the rest is just excuse.
Stalling...
Some people also try always to turn these kinds of questions into a battle of the sexes that the feminists are pushing for. And that tey are men haters and so on. As soon as the going gets rough "some" males resort to that kind of stalling.
I'm a feminist myself
I at the moment am not of the opinion that a group/mass prayer is in any way more beneficial than praying in solitude.
However when forced into the situation/scenario that this thread requires, I'd be against it.We are full of those tricks.
Do not play the tricks and nobody will call them out.
But if you (whoever) play them you have to stick with as much calling outs as come along and from my point of view too few tricks are called out. Most go by unchallenged.
Salaam
That's what I'm trying to get at!! I am not playing those tricks that you accuse me of.
How would you feel if I said that you're simply trying to have men be submissive?
Not saying you are, but you'd probably react the way I am doing right now. NOT TRUE.If only we would consider what Allah has instructed us to do
and that is to lower the gaze and dress modestly hmmbravo
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My point, knowing that the activity is happening in front of you. It's like saying don't think of a pink elephant, and all of a sudden you start visualizing.
Since pink elephants couldn't possibly put you in a state of sexual arousal (hopefully) it's an easier distraction to deal with yes? just like honking horns on the street across the mosque or whatever. If any distraction is equally distracting then perhaps we need to be more mindful of what we're actually there to do since there will always be distractions.I do not see any problem with having sexual "desires" towards others. It's natural, it's ok, it's even good up to some degree. However one should be capable of saying no to these desires, one should be capable of lowering the ego.
If a woman were to offer me sex, as a man I've got nothing to lose, not even society is going to think low of me, worst case scenario she's going to get pregnant, why should I care. However that's where lowering the ego is important, learn to reduce the desire to maximize one's own profit (whether it be materialistic or non-materialistic).
learning to = trainingI'm against trying to train ourselves like dogs (which I love).
I am of the honest opinion that unconscious thoughts are not controllable. Instead one should work on controlling one's lust.
For example, some people who are doing this are pedophiles, many pedophiles are victims of their sexual orientation, if one could simply train away one's own lust, they'd be the first ones to do so. Many of them get castrated and probably even hormone therapy so that they can control themselves. With them, it's a different case, their sexual desires are not "ok", and many of them know it and are trying their best to live normal lives.
I mentioned external events/related subconscious thoughts as what it is, learning to deal with them when they occur is in our control for the most part. If that's training like a dog, I'm not sure what to say other than woof. we appear to be already trained as Pavlov's dogs by salivating at the sight of women's butts instead of a bell however, perhaps it's more about unlearningIt isn't a "big" issue. It's the question of the topic.
The idea of someone "leading" a prayer in and of itself is weird. In my opinion!
It is a big issue because sexual stuff is a big issue in most parts. there is never any equal time devoted to farts or street noises or body odor as there is about women, their clothes and sex. This is pretty much how it's always been, leaving prayer aside, take most any topic...sex and related stuff is big and other things, not so much, can be dealt with so on and so forth. Two different things, leading prayer and a woman leading prayer.I'm not the one who started talking about clothes -X
But since clothes became such a big topic, and I got categorized as one who " a spiritual question concerning women into a clothes show".
I thought why not mention my ideas regarding clothes.
You're right though, it does deserve a thread of it's own.haven't read most of the thread but yes.
I meant the desire to be attractive should be left for the bedroom.
Many women are seeing other women as a threat, as rivals, the less clothes one starts wearing, the more other women will do the same, eventually the "norm" will change.
Imagine a woman walking around in leggings and a belly top in the year 1920. She'd immediately feel uncomfortable, because the people of back then would have reacted with a "wtf" expression.
Nowadays people start wearing more and more provocative clothes, so that they too can be considered "attractive". That's what I was getting at.
I agree that beauty is subjective.Not everyone does that however, in the US for example, women dress more or less normally even if some are wearing almost nothing. It's about comfort levels and finding them. If one is balanced, they tend to stick somewhere between utility and attractiveness. It's the growing up part and finding ourselves which is where people experiment with different things. Extremes tend towards exceptions and most people fall into the normal zone. We tend to see those and inflate it, same thing with music, games, media, clothing what have you.
Oh actually, I do plan on starting a fourth wave feminism, and even if I should fail, I hope to at least give birth to some sparks which may lead into a flame. I just need to put my hypotheses into a scientific work and I've got ideas for experiments.
I think we can partially influence other people.
Though this deserves another topic as well, and I don't plan on revealing my ideas.
good luck ) -
I have no problem with a woman leading the prayer, however the topic of this thread was a woman leading both men and women mixed behind her. different scenarios.
You are great. of course the topic is a woman ledig both men and women. The part about me and women mixedbehind her you have added out of your awn creativeness at this point.
Nobody yet has touches mixing men ad women in a raw. This is also stallig, changing what is being talked about intosomething else.
The question is a woman leading a mixed prayer can stand in fronnt of he women o need to stand i front of the men. You know the men are just a sex, i f a man can stand in front of them to lead mixed prayers what makes it impossible for a woman to sand in front of the women to lead mixed prayers?
And ok it is veyr nice you do not want anybody to be in front of anybody else. So anytime you go to mosque yu are not going to like it anyway sowhy would it be more distasteful if nybody stands in front that it is a woman and not a man.It is fantastic that you have such great prospectfor your wife, but there are any more women in the world that your wife. A woman who goes to prayers or wants to participate fully in a mosque and happen no tto be your wife should not be precluded from doing it because you are so good to your wife.
Women are not the wives of everybody else, and should be respected as such women by everybody not just by their husband. They are women because God made them so, not because anybody marries them.
Salaam
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Nobody yet has touches mixing men ad women in a raw.
probably 'cause we haven't visualized the side breast yet? I can start the ball rolling and make up some evolutionary theories about the powers they hold if need be, then again I'm pretty sure someone with a lot of time and frustration on his hands out there has already let loose a fatwa over it. -
Did anyone consider this
The skimpy clothes of women are simply trend from corporations. At the end of the day, everyone feels hot and cold. Its just the trend and media which tell us that women need to wear revealing clothes (even in winter as if it is not oppression). Drop them and you will find everyone regardless of the gender dressing up modestly. Trust me, not all women want to dress the way they do right from the heart. So far these are some of the things I have been told
"Uncomfortable to wear, but these are the only kinds available"
"This is in fashion"
"Women need to reveal some skin"Since I worked in a store during my first few college years I do know that corporations don't give them much choice. Also very few are capable of standing up against the society and media. Everyone wishes to fit in.
media is very influencial and does set trends, but i think the point of the thread is what does the quran say regardless of what anyone desires to do
i just know for a fact that women stare at men as much as men stare at women, and when everyone is dressed modestly the problem of "why are men such pigs staring as us pure maiden angel women" disappears
i'm going to talk about this issue to some relatives who think like that, that men are all pigs and women are maidens who never poo or fart
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If only we would consider what Allah has instructed us to do
and that is to lower the gaze and dress modestly hmmtoday if i had to lower it every time i have to, i would be dead in a car accident or be run over by a bus because i'd be staring at the ground all the time
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Not at all, keep your eyes up and stay sharp. Mend those instincts which desire instead and find methods of not thinking of mating at the sight of someone of the opposite sex.
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I suppose I have to summarise this thread
Women can only lead a congregation prayer if all the congregation were"saints and prophets" because of the "buttock" thingy.
Men can lead any congregation because the "buttock" thingy does not arise. every member of the congregation has "praying to GOD" on their mind only.
No Qoran verses were provided to clearly establish why women cannot lead a congregation to prayer.That good logic suggestion of "praying on the beach" was nonsensical, How dare he even suggest that or "praying naked"? even if it was intended as "humour"?
May be he was suggesting to concentrate on your prayer to GOD Alone regardless of who was leading the prayer and what they were wearing!!!
So shall we try again? Why can only men lead a congregation prayer?
Perhaps not!
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Well, in Islam The World Religion, I guess you'll find the answer in some book of hadith or some sayings of sunnah. Other than that, there is no Islam. There is no system that people will agree on. There is no system outlined by the Quran, because we'll never agree on such a thing. So, the only thing remaining is to let each faction do as they wish, if they insist on congregational prayer. If you're not happy with the rules of one group, then find another group or form your own. Forget Quran-alone groups... as there will never be consensus on what the Quran alone says. To each his/her own. Even when we are instructed to not be divided in factions, we insist on finding the ultimate, pure, true system free from corruption. Well, just looking for such a system/set/package is inventing division. Systems are division. Good luck humanity. bravo
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Peace Zulf.
Please do not give up,at least not on GOD Alone.
I am sure with all our differences ,providing we accept each other as we are, there must be hope that at least we can live in peace with each other.
So what if your fellow human went to a synagogue,or prayed in a church,or went to a temple or did a congregation prayer behind a man or a woman or.... If they stop their wars,aggression,lording it above each other,fighting each other,hating each other,gossiping,back biting,ridiculing,claiming their religion is the truth...etc You never know,just may be , now or in 100 years or so... GOD Alone will unite them?
Anyway,brother ,GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I suppose I have to summarise this thread
Women can only lead a congregation prayer if all the congregation were"saints and prophets" because of the "buttock" thingy.
Men can lead any congregation because the "buttock" thingy does not arise. every member of the congregation has "praying to GOD" on their mind only.
No Qoran verses were provided to clearly establish why women cannot lead a congregation to prayer.That good logic suggestion of "praying on the beach" was nonsensical, How dare he even suggest that or "praying naked"? even if it was intended as "humour"?
May be he was suggesting to concentrate on your prayer to GOD Alone regardless of who was leading the prayer and what they were wearing!!!
So shall we try again? Why can only men lead a congregation prayer?
Perhaps not!
GOD bless you all.
Peace.sun sun sun
Salaam
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today if i had to lower it every time i have to, i would be dead in a car accident or be run over by a bus because i'd be staring at the ground all the time
Wouldn't there be more of a chance of getting run over if one was NOT looking at the cars and buses - but instead looking at women?
The question posed at the start of the thread is a good one and difficult to answer relying only on the Quran - as there is nothing forbidding it - the only thing that comes to mind is that of decency by men and women. I personally think Men should lead men and women should lead women - this is my personal opinion - and I would welcome more places of congregational salat for women only - as well as more for us Quran-alone men - or even two equal sections of the same building for men and women. At least Husbands and wives can visit these places together.
Then again, I often perform the Salat with my wife - no one leads the Salat - we just perform it together... in a congregation of two - connecting to our Creator (or at least trying really hard!).
Ed
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Peace Zulf.
Please do not give up,at least not on GOD Alone.Actually, what I'm taking a break from is religion and scholastic and intellectual endeavors. I am moving towards peace, through an inner path. Ironically, I keep feeling that the more you get involved in religion, the more distant you get from The Creator. Religion becomes theory, and intellectual exercise. It doesn't matter if it is so called God-alone... it is still intellectual.
I'm now more interested in experience, something that will change you from the inside out, and not just philosophy that does nothing more than add data to your brain.Peace O0
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Fair enough brother zulf.
Keep in touch though, unless you take a break from all things to do /remind you of some system.I am satisfied inside me,even though I discuss with friends ,I am not looking for anything apart from strengthening my relationship with my Creator.
I do not profess to have an answer for others. Each one of us need to seek/ponder or otherwise how they live their life and why.It is difficult for me to keep myself on task sometimes .. My aim is to stay connected to my Lord 24/7, while trying to do the day to day tasks of living my life.
I am very fortunate of late that GOD has given me a circle of family and friends that care about each other and enjoy each other s company . That has given me a positivity to try and project that love/joy to others.
I thank my Lord for it.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I am very fortunate of late that GOD has given me a circle of family and friends that care about each other and enjoy each other s company . That has given me a positivity to try and project that love/joy to others.
Indeed you are blessed with a wonderful thing.
Peace -
Whether not you think salat is a ritual prayer, let us start with this Can you provide one verse telling women directly to attend or uphold salat, attend the masjid, or that they are obliged to do it 2, 3, 5 or however many times you think salat should be done per day?
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peace, see 971 ...
https//s7.postimg.org/6au48s4uz/british_quran_ch9v63-73.jpg