Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?

Bender

Just to make sure I got this right, you're saying that the physical movements standing, bowing and prostrating. Are not Quranic?
Please explain, why does the Quran mention these movements? Metaphorical?

These are "the monotheist group"'s translations, mind that I don't know Arabic.
2238 Maintain the contact prayers; and the middle contact prayer; and stand for God dutifully.

Hi Study,

Even if you take sallaat= "contact prayer (traditional way)" then you still have to read the sentence as an enumeration.
2238.......AND..........AND..........

2239 But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

fearful to do a "contact prayer"???

56 O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall purify. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be thankful.

Do you do the spiritual cleansing? Or do you have a different approach on this as well? No offence, sincere interest.
and this verse tells us to "rise" to hold the prayer doesn't it?

RED How does one clean himself spiritually for a contact prayer?
BLUE no it does not say to "rise" to hold the sallaat but it says "IF YOU RISE to hold the sallaat."
Anyways, the verse begins like this (in your translation) "O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, THEN ..."
aren't the actions what follow the things to do for sallaat? instead of doing them before the sallaat?

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be behind you; and let a group who has not yet made the contact prayer come and make the contact prayer with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

The praying group is standing.

And if I have no legs?

2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."

what has this to do with sallaat?

4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek the blessings and approval of God. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Gospel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

what has this to do with sallaat? And a lot of people kneel and prostate for God and they are not with Mohammed.

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be behind you(end of salat); and let a group who has not yet made the contact prayer come and make the contact prayer with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

RED The translation is already very questionable don't make it worse with extra brackets.

If you want my advice try to investigate the word sallaat again but this time without any fixed interpretation.

Salaam,
Bender

Man_of_Faith

Hello Bender,

Glad you have begun to see the inconsistency with the traditional interpretation of salat too, even if you might not be on par with me. Take care.

Be safe
Amenuel

As-Salaatayn

Man of faith,

Look up tabarruj in lisanul-Arab and MMAA (Mu'jam mufradaat al-Faadh Al-Quran). Then we will talk about its meaning. Or are these books base don traditionalist conspiracies to dictate women's dress out of their insecurity and lustful ways as men?

nope SMH

Study,

You were within your rights to post that video. This is what many here want Islamic practice to look like. As long as they are wearing clothing somehow that is modest enough.

Salaam.

Bender

Hello Bender,

Glad you have begun to see the inconsistency with the traditional interpretation of salat too, even if you might not be on par with me. Take care.

Be safe
Amenuel

Hi Amenuel,

It was like 2 years ago when I finally had the redeeming ! (yes I am a little bit slow )

Bender

Study,

You were within your rights to post that video. This is what many here want Islamic practice to look like. As long as they are wearing clothing somehow that is modest enough.

Salaam.

Hi,

Did your Islamic practice teach you to post a youtube film with a woman of whom you can see half of her nipples?

Study

Study,

You were within your rights to post that video. This is what many here want Islamic practice to look like. As long as they are wearing clothing somehow that is modest enough.

Salaam.

With full respect, I believe not.
One outward mistake does not mean that they are bad people, we may have tons of inward mistakes.
Who are we to point at others? I believe that criticism should occur through a mirror and not through a monocular.

I still use the term mistake because I find Man of Faith's "your soul is the real you" idea to be true. Our body is just a container. And these girls look like they've had operations to gain the look that they desire, which I find kills the real you (soul) by putting layers of lies over yourself.

Hi Study,

Even if you take sallaat= "contact prayer (traditional way)" then you still have to read the sentence as an enumeration.
2238.......AND..........AND..........
fearful to do a "contact prayer"???

I feel stupid for asking, but, what do you mean with enumeration?
And the fearful part, the way I understood means if you're being attacked or something alike. Hop on your horses and make a run for the threat ;D

For me that part shows that "usually" you don't walk/run while praying and thought that meant you have a certain action which you need to do.
But now that I think about it, it could also mean "usually" you sit, or stand, or lie, who knows, it simply excludes moving.

RED How does one clean himself spiritually for a contact prayer?

I meant
"O you who believe, when you rise to observe the Salat, you shall wash your faces and your arms to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles." 56

It's often argued in mainstream islam that the purpose of wudu is cleansing oneself physically.
I believe it to be spiritually. In verse 56 "taharah" is used.

"The angels said, "O Mary, God has chosen you and 'tahharik', and He has chosen you over the women of all the people." 342
God didn't wash Mary. God purified her.

"Take from their money a charity to 'tuttaherahum' and sanctify them." 9103
Donation purifies the believers, it doesn't wash them.

"Those are the ones whose hearts God did not want to 'yuttahhir'. They shall have humiliation in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment." 541

So as a conclusion I take that the purpose of 56 (wudu) is spiritual cleansing.
Another argument being
"If you are ill or travelling, or if any of you has come from the toilet, or had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, you shall observe Tayammum by means of wiping your faces and hands with clean dry soil." 443

Doing so tests our will. Will we go through the trouble of doing something so basic or will we give in to our ego and be lazy.

For those who don't perform physical salat, my question is do they do 56 as well? And how would you call it if not spiritual cleansing?

BLUE no it does not say to "rise" to hold the sallaat but it says "IF YOU RISE to hold the sallaat."
Anyways, the verse begins like this (in your translation) "O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, THEN ..."
aren't the actions what follow the things to do for sallaat? instead of doing them before the sallaat?

Good argument.

And if I have no legs?

Then you simply follow another religion

I thought that the "But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding" implies that God does not require us to do the movements, it's the intention that counts. God knows our intentions/what's in our hearts and holds us responsible therefore. 2225 463

RED The translation is already very questionable don't make it worse with extra brackets.
If you want my advice try to investigate the word sallaat again but this time without any fixed interpretation.
Salaam,
Bender

The extra brackets were to imply my understanding so that my intentions came across.
I agree when you say that I have to invest time in the word sallaat.
peace
Be well.

Yosemite

Hi,

Did your Islamic practice teach you to post a youtube film with a woman of whom you can see half of her nipples?

is a word worse than an actual act that happened? does talking about the action make someone worse than the person who actually performed the action?

when people say "modest clothing is subjective", the door is open to 100 interpretations
pretty much how sects in Islam sprung up, from people who thought the rules and system laid out in the quran were to be associated with the prophet through hadiths and what not

is there a hundred ways to shoot someone in the head with a gun other than pulling the trigger and aiming the gun at the head? or can we say this is subjective as well and cannot be deterministic?

As-Salaatayn

Bender,

It doesn't surprise me that this is the route you took. Of course I am to blame...of course. That's called trolling and it is pretty much the same logic you and other feminists here have been using. Have fun with that! nope SMH

Salam

reel

Umm, I forgot to mention that couple of weeks ago, I came across one FB post which had something serious to say about congressional prayer. It was from a Quran follower to a hadither. He pointed out that during such prayer, a person prostrates to the rear end of the person in front of him.

http//media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/02/92802-004-860DE3FD.jpg

Study

Umm, I forgot to mention that couple of weeks ago, I came across one FB post which had something serious to say about congressional prayer. It was from a Quran follower to a hadither. He pointed out that during such prayer, a person prostrates to the rear end of the person in front of him.

http//media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/02/92802-004-860DE3FD.jpg

Well, your signature is a lie. Incorrect is not your password. nope

If you take a look at the left side of that picture you can clearly see a person sitting in a wheelchair praying as well.
Even if I do end up not performing physical salat, (hopefully) I won't are judge other people.
I find it simply rude and offensive. Just imagine them turning out to be correct and them prostating being part of the salat.
How would I face God? I made fun of them for doing something which you ordered them to do?

Be well. peace

Bender

I feel stupid for asking, but, what do you mean with enumeration?

Hi,

Probably it's my fault, maybe I used the wrong English word.

The last part of the verse is not an inclusion of one of the 2 actions before it, it's also an action.

And the fearful part, the way I understood means if you're being attacked or something alike. Hop on your horses and make a run for the threat ;D

I am glad you see the humor in it, does it make any sense to you?

For me that part shows that "usually" you don't walk/run while praying and thought that meant you have a certain action which you need to do.
But now that I think about it, it could also mean "usually" you sit, or stand, or lie, who knows, it simply excludes moving.

RED Like what?
BLUE It could also mean something else.

I meant
"O you who believe, when you rise to observe the Salat, you shall wash your faces and your arms to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles." 56

It's often argued in mainstream islam that the purpose of wudu is cleansing oneself physically.
I believe it to be spiritually. In verse 56 "taharah" is used.

"The angels said, "O Mary, God has chosen you and 'tahharik', and He has chosen you over the women of all the people." 342
God didn't wash Mary. God purified her.

I understood what you meant. But the question stays the same, how do I do a spiritual cleaning before the prayer. Remember I am not Mary, I have to do this myself, so how should I spiritually clean myself before I pray?

"Take from their money a charity to 'tuttaherahum' and sanctify them." 9103
Donation purifies the believers, it doesn't wash them.

I have to do a donation before I pray?

"Those are the ones whose hearts God did not want to 'yuttahhir'. They shall have humiliation in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment." 541

So as a conclusion I take that the purpose of 56 (wudu) is spiritual cleansing.

RED Why did you not follow my advice >( NEVER conclude something, just take it as the best option you have so far.

Another argument being
"If you are ill or travelling, or if any of you has come from the toilet, or had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, you shall observe Tayammum by means of wiping your faces and hands with clean dry soil." 443

Doing so tests our will. Will we go through the trouble of doing something so basic or will we give in to our ego and be lazy.

For those who don't perform physical salat, my question is do they do 56 as well?

Ever thought that maybe sallaat does not mean prayer?

I believe every mumeen who gives importance to sallaat does 56 by instinct even if he/she never read the quran.

And how would you call it if not spiritual cleansing?

I don't think there is any cleansing (spiritually or physically) in 56, so I can not really answer this question.

Good argument.
Then you simply follow another religion

Yes I follow my religion

I thought that the "But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding" implies that God does not require us to do the movements, it's the intention that counts. God knows our intentions/what's in our hearts and holds us responsible therefore. 2225 463

If God does not require the movements when we are fearfull then why does He require them when we are not fearful?

The extra brackets were to imply my understanding so that my intentions came across. I agree when you say that I have to invest time in the word sallaat.

Yes I know.
Just an advice, never read what is in the brackets of translations, it was not hard for the author of the quran to put brackets if he wanted it.

peace
Be well.

salaam,
Bender

Bender

is a word worse than an actual act that happened? does talking about the action make someone worse than the person who actually performed the action?

Hi,

It was not only talking. The act that happened is that he posted a youtube film of a woman of whom you can see half of her nipples.
Maybe I am a little bit old fashioned but I think it was not such a good idea.

when people say "modest clothing is subjective", the door is open to 100 interpretations

yes and it's not my business how one clothes him/herself.

pretty much how sects in Islam sprung up, from people who thought the rules and system laid out in the quran were to be associated with the prophet through hadiths and what not
is there a hundred ways to shoot someone in the head with a gun other than pulling the trigger and aiming the gun at the head? or can we say this is subjective as well and cannot be deterministic?

shooting some one in the head is totally different from shooting your own head.
Those who shoot themselves are shooting themselves, if you can not understand this then there is not much to discuss with me.
If they are are forcing you to dress beyond what you think is modest then that's a other thing, then you have the right to fight for your rights and I will offer you my help if I can help in some way.

Bender

Bender,

It doesn't surprise me that this is the route you took. Of course I am to blame...of course. That's called trolling and it is pretty much the same logic you and other feminists here have been using. Have fun with that! nope SMH

Salam

Hi,

I blame you only for posting nudity (of course my definition of nudity).

And I am not a feminist, so please do not call me that.

As-Salaatayn

Peace,

You tell me not to call you something, then you accuse me of posting nudity, according to "YOUR" standards of nudity. As if your couching changes your accusation. Aside from the fact that you are WAAY off topic and trying to pretend that my intention was to post nudity, now you resort to accusations instead of sticking to the topic. Is this a joke? Is this the type of people attracted to Quranism??...No wonder Quranists are in a state of disarray and have no sense of morality. No wonder Quranism attracts female chauvinists and libertines, linguistic liars and every class of libertine seeking liberal and intangible religion who seek to reinterpret an ancient book and hoodwink those who are unaware. I thought we would be the best of the best when I came to Quranism. Now, I am starting to see. The proof is always in the pudding. Jaa' al-haqqu wa zahaqal-baatila innal-baatila kaana zahooqan !!!

As much as I love the Quran and the idea of only following the Qur'an, I think the verdict is in. And it is apparent in ALL of the Quranic spaces I have been in. Quranism has no moral teeth and no ability to bring its own ummah together. Quranists have NO real commitment to studying, living and understanding the Quran and its language. They actually see religion as barbaric and backwards, which is quite ironic.

There is something in this way that causes severe weakness in faith. I think that through the rejection of all traditional islamic sciences, even those that are in line with the Quran, there is an indirect rejection of the prophet Muhammad (saas) while attempting to usurp the book that he gave us from God. It is an attempt to separate God from his messenger (saas). This is why Quranists hate to say Ash-hadu anna muhammadarrasoolullahi. This is why they hate to wish blessings and peace on Muhammad (saas) even when the Quran tells us to do this. This is obvious in the way Quranist go about all of this. They revel in the fact that the Quran associates this part of the shahaadah with the hypocrites and despise the fact that the Quran says that the believers bore witness that Muhammad (saas) was true! It is an attempt to disown all of his original and true followers and any knowledge that can be attributed to them.

I see Quranists as a demographic of people who try to take advantage of what they see as ambiguity in the Quran, and who even try to create ambiguity where there is none to please non-Muslims. I am not okay with this.

May Allah guide me to the right path. I am really wondering if Quranists are on the right path. I have been on this path for 15 years now and
I am seriously starting to doubt this path. May Allah guide those who seek Him.

Salaam

Study

There is no such a thing as a quranist's perspective. The Quran is nothing more than a book, even if send down by God. It's still a book. With sentences, words and letters. So obviously there are going to be many interpretations. It's up to you to choose what interpretation makes sense. If your choice is going to be influenced by your earthly desire then you will be held responsible for it yourself.
And just to make one thing clear. We are responsible for ourselves at the end. Every single person, as an individual. So why label people as a mass? Saying that "quranists" do/are x/y.

And with just a book I mean, it doesn't contain videos or any kind of magic power, it isn't going to shine and letters fly out of the book at night going into the heaven alongside stars shining brightly.

And I believe that prophet muhammad wrote the Quran himself, even if this is an unpopular opinion. And I still don't say his name when saying eshedu en la illaha illalahu.

If we want to imitate the prophet then why not imitate the way he did that as well. Or would do you believe that the prophet said
And I am his abduhu and rasullulah?

I believe there to be multiple ways into heaven Quran is just one of them.
The core message is one god.

Bender

Peace,

You tell me not to call you something,

Hi,

Yes please, I know what I am and I am not a feminist.
But if you insist calling me a feminist then go ahead, I will survive, it was just a kind request.

then you accuse me of posting nudity, according to "YOUR" standards of nudity.As if your couching changes your accusation.

Yes correct, to my standards.

Aside from the fact that you are WAAY off topic

yes correct, this will be my last off topic post in this topic.

and trying to pretend that my intention was to post nudity,

not true, I do not know what your intentions are but I know that you posted nudity (my definition of nudity).

now you resort to accusations instead of sticking to the topic.

Yes true, every now and when I see something that goes beyond my moralities then I can go off topic and sometimes I even accuse someone, it's in my nature.

Is this a joke? Is this the type of people attracted to Quranism??...No wonder Quranists are in a state of disarray and have no sense of morality. No wonder Quranism attracts female chauvinists and libertines, linguistic liars and every class of libertine seeking liberal and intangible religion who seek to reinterpret an ancient book and hoodwink those who are unaware.

I am not a quranist.

Blue who was the one who posted the youtube film, you or me?
So what should we do with you, how many slashes for posting nudity, I am almost sure that posting nudity in your religion is not done and deserves a punishment.

I thought we would be the best of the best when I came to Quranism. Now, I am starting to see. The proof is always in the pudding. Jaa' al-haqqu wa zahaqal-baatila innal-baatila kaana zahooqan !!!

No quranism is just a sect, probably one of the betters sects but still a sect

As much as I love the Quran and the idea of only following the Qur'an, I think the verdict is in. And it is apparent in ALL of the Quranic spaces I have been in. Quranism has no moral teeth and no ability to bring its own ummah together. Quranists have NO real commitment to studying, living and understanding the Quran and its language. They actually see religion as barbaric and backwards, which is quite ironic.

Green I do those things because it's one of my hobbies and because I think I can learn a lot from it, but you are correct that it's not a commitment for me.

There is something in this way that causes severe weakness in faith.

I think that through the rejection of all traditional islamic sciences, even those that are in line with the Quran, there is an indirect rejection of the prophet Muhammad (saas) while attempting to usurp the book that he gave us from God. It is an attempt to separate God from his messenger (saas).

Allah and His messenger are separated.

This is why Quranists hate to say Ash-hadu anna muhammadarrasoolullahi.
This is why they hate to wish blessings and peace on Muhammad (saas) even when the Quran tells us to do this.
This is obvious in the way Quranist go about all of this. They revel in the fact that the Quran associates this part of the shahaadah with the hypocrites and despise the fact that the Quran says that the believers bore witness that Muhammad (saas) was true! It is an attempt to disown all of his original and true followers and any knowledge that can be attributed to them.
I see Quranists as a demographic of people who try to take advantage of what they see as ambiguity in the Quran, and who even try to create ambiguity where there is none to please non-Muslims. I am not okay with this.

First thing I think of in the morning is what should I do today to please non-muslims. I feel always very bad when a day goes by and I did not please a non-muslim.

May Allah guide me to the right path. I am really wondering if Quranists are on the right path. I have been on this path for 15 years now and
I am seriously starting to doubt this path. May Allah guide those who seek Him.

Salaam

Salaam,
Bender

As-Salaatayn

Bender,

I do those things because it's one of my hobbies and because I think I can learn a lot from it, but you are correct that it's not a commitment for me.

Enough said. Thanks for clarifying in an honest way. I don't think you are the only one in Quranist circles who has no real commitment to the Quran and for whom its study is just a hobby, whether they admit to it honestly or not. Again, thanks for being honest. Peace.

Salaam

As-Salaatayn

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-trNuWBJz0

reel

Well, your signature is a lie. Incorrect is not your password. nope

D

If you take a look at the left side of that picture you can clearly see a person sitting in a wheelchair praying as well.
Even if I do end up not performing physical salat, (hopefully) I won't are judge other people.
I find it simply rude and offensive. Just imagine them turning out to be correct and them prostating being part of the salat.
How would I face God? I made fun of them for doing something which you ordered them to do?

Be well. peace

Yes, the man is using the opinion of the scholar for it. I can imagine that intention is what gets counted.

Man_of_Faith

Al-salataayn,

Please prove to me about wishing some kind of blessing upon Muhammad. Do you think think he is not blessed and peaceful enough already?

I do not buy the translation using salawa so you have to linguistically prove to me how it can add up and that is indeed hard for you except echoing something someone else once claimed.

Now I understand why you are so hostile because you have the typical sectarian mind, a mind that cannot critically reflect upon anything due to a dogma about an individual called Satan and such doctrine. If you were able, then you would quite fast see the inconsistency with how the ancient Arabic was/is deciphered.