Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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Did anyone consider this
The skimpy clothes of women are simply trend from corporations. At the end of the day, everyone feels hot and cold. Its just the trend and media which tell us that women need to wear revealing clothes (even in winter as if it is not oppression). Drop them and you will find everyone regardless of the gender dressing up modestly. Trust me, not all women want to dress the way they do right from the heart. So far these are some of the things I have been told
"Uncomfortable to wear, but these are the only kinds available"
"This is in fashion"
"Women need to reveal some skin"Since I worked in a store during my first few college years I do know that corporations don't give them much choice. Also very few are capable of standing up against the society and media. Everyone wishes to fit in.
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Let's cool it down a bit. In my opinion, simple as it may be, I see some valid points but that doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusions being drawn from such points/the ways it goes from there is solid.
Buttocks. Right, other than the word itself being satisfying to say or write...is not a valid response in regards to women praying in front of men. Any sexual thoughts arising from women's movements other than a strippers pole and that sort of stuff is solely to be blamed on whoever has these thoughts. On the flip side, whether it's women or men deliberately enticing the audience into having sexual thoughts is a situation that can be blamed on both. This is a concept that apparently some find hard to swallow. It must be the one enticing to blame. This can go further into different scenarios...leaving sexual attraction aside, how much someone is culpable for enticing and is the other helpless in the face of such enticement. Whether it's towards sordid tales of sexual adventure, criminal acts or even suicide.
In short, intentional enticement is wrong, unintentional is on the one imagining it. A woman could be cleaning and cause feelings of intense excitement in a man because she was stretching her limbs and her buttocks! Quelle horreur. In cases of deliberate enticement, blame is on both depending on the nature of the enticement and the circumstances of the individual parties. We are here talking about adults in control of themselves, not children or those with impaired faculties. And if seeing a buttock (is it single or plural? buttocks?) rising and falling for an adult causes impaired functioning of the sort that causes them to lose focus to the extent of forgetting what they're doing then they need to take themselves in hand or book an appointment to see a professional. No pun intended.
There is a real danger in such which can be readily seen in the world today. Policing people especially women (which is a hard fact) due to imagined sexual perversions and controlling situations just because they may cause men to lose their tops and 'get excited'. It is ridiculous, but a reality sadly.
I am afraid you are preaching in the desert. Decent honest man do not need to be told what you written because they know it and do not hav any problem with it.
For the other kind of men, what you say is completely useless, someof them even in fact want to be enticed, only if it is to their advantage. In this case of women imamas, clothing and enticing question is the excipient, the active principle is that they want to keep the women in teir place and if for that they clothing question is ueful, they will use it. They do not give a dam about clothing if clothig does not serve their true purpose which is to keep women in their place. So no amount of centuries of discussing and preaching onthis very obviou thing will make them flinch.
The example of prophet Yusuf they couldn't care less and do not even take any notice. Only matters what they want and what they need to have what they want. Too many considerations for nothing at all.
Reel,
In what you say you are completely right, but I would add the same as for savage Carrot, that clothes for those of the boys club minded do not affect at all the question here. Clothes are interesting only inso far as they serve to maintain the mosques as male clubs. Other than that they could not care less whether women are shivering or sweating or hanging from the clothesline.
Salaam
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I am afraid you are preaching in the desert. Decent honest man do not need to be told what you written because they know it and do not hav any problem with it.
For the other kind of men, what you say is completely useless, someof them even in fact want to be enticed, only if it is to their advantage. In this case of women imamas, clothing and enticing question is the excipient, the active principle is that they want to keep the women in teir place and if for that they clothing question is ueful, they will use it. They do not give a dam about clothing if clothig does not serve their true purpose which is to keep women in their place. So no amount of centuries of discussing and preaching onthis very obviou thing will make them flinch.
The example of prophet Yusuf they couldn't care less and do not even take any notice. Only matters what they want and what they need to have what they want. Too many considerations for nothing at all.
I know, just needs to be reiterated if nothing else. And of course, I agree. Clothes are just a flimsy excuse. Even when everything is covered by a sack, they still complain about the eyes giving come hither looks. We all know that evolutionary theory has discovered that women's eyes shoot rays of magical pheromones especially if they are lined in kohl. Then that gets covered and it becomes the general shape of the sack which is enticing because once again, there is a theory that sacks can't really hold a female's mystical powers in check, they shine through due to the walking. Females are genetically programmed to walk in a certain way that inflames the passions of the males thus the sacks shouldn't even be seen on the streets. Goes on and on.Other than that they could not care less whether women are shivering or sweating or hanging from the clothesline.
;D -
I know, just needs to be reiterated if nothing else. And of course, I agree. Clothes are just a flimsy excuse. Even when everything is covered by a sack, they still complain about the eyes giving come hither looks. We all know that evolutionary theory has discovered that women's eyes shoot rays of magical pheromones especially if they are lined in kohl. Then that gets covered and it becomes the general shape of the sack which is enticing because once again, there is a theory that sacks can't really hold a female's mystical powers in check, they shine through due to the walking. Females are genetically programmed to walk in a certain way that inflames the passions of the males thus the sacks shouldn't even be seen on the streets. Goes on and on.
;D'
I must have missed on the shooting rays with the eyes. I have to catch up.
And yes, it has to be reapeated and repeated, because it is like waves, they keep coming and coming and coming as if they had not come before.
Salaam
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sexual thoughts arising from women's movements other than a strippers pole and that sort of stuff is solely to be blamed on whoever has these thoughts.
I never meant having sexual thoughts, I meant sexual stimuli, two very different things.
If a person starts imagining scenarios then he is being perverse, however if all he did was see a women wearing tight jeans and gets aroused (without having any kind of thoughts, fantasies, visualisations) then it's a very normal and in my opinion a good thing, otherwise we wouldn't have been born.The way I see it, sex is a gift to us humans, it's nothing bad, it's a very natural, healthy (when in an engagement/only one partner) and enriching activity. Anyone who is sexualy healthy is going to have sexual stimuli which is, as said above, not perverse, not a visualisation of thoughts or anything alike.
Put a person to sleep and play with the body and s/he will get an erection or swelling of the inside of the vagina, it is nothing to be ashamed of, it's the way our body has been constructed. The person sleeping may not even be dreaming of anything sexual, however the body will react, that is a sexual stimuli.
Of course such a stimuli can also occur through thoughts, but those are not the ones I'm talking about.And if seeing a buttock (is it single or plural? buttocks?) rising and falling for an adult causes impaired functioning of the sort that causes them to lose focus to the extent of forgetting what they're doing then they need to take themselves in hand or book an appointment to see a professional. No pun intended.
Buttock is one of the two parts, buttocks refers to the butt.
If they start fantasizing, then yes, they're at fault. Losing focus, that's even way over the top.What I meant was simply getting a sexual stimuli, which I've explained before as being something very natural and even (In my opinion) healthy. I wouldn't even for one second want to be sexually stimulated when praying, getting into contact with God. I would even prefer to have all of my surrounding disappear and be left in soltitude inside of my mind with nothing around me besides God. The least thing I'd like in such a moment is hunger/thirst/excitement for something (wether it be a movie or a date) and definitely not a sexual stimuli.
There is a real danger in such which can be readily seen in the world today. Policing people especially women (which is a hard fact) due to imagined sexual perversions and controlling situations just because they may cause men to lose their tops and 'get excited'. It is ridiculous, but a reality sadly.
People adapt to their surroundings, if we live in a state in which women walk around half nude, changes are high one's own female family members are going to walk around just like that.
Wearing push-up underwear and bra. Unaware that wearing push-ups or even just tight shirts which lift the breasts leads into loose and weak upperchest muscles which in turns results into the breasts hanging even more. The desire to fake good looks results into looking even worse than one did before.
No problem though, nowadays people use silicon as a countermeasurement........
If one has had a breast removal duo to breast cancer, then that'd be understandable, however the mere desire to be more attractive is ridiculous.
The porn industry is ruining the world.
One should be attracted to the face, the smell, the voice and all those innocent yet deciding factors. People wearing make-up with the desire to look nice, unkowing that these products contain chemical poison which ruin their skin, again getting even further away from the desired results, ruining what one has by nature.
I see 12 year old girls wearing jeans wich're eating their butts. Just so that they don't lose to the "competition". Sick sick mentality.
I don't see women and think slut. How could I think such a thing of a 12 year old girl?? What if I get a daughter and when she turns 18 starts wearing the same clothes that I despise? I think poor victim of society.
It's no sign of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. And we have many sick societies(plural? I don't know).
Not saying that the major muslim countries are better, in many places women are being suppressed.The least thing that I'd accept is for people to say that I a suppress female rights, I am a feminist. Not an egalitarianist, I fight for female rights, and it is a right for the women of all societies to not be a victim. In most of the middle east they're being seen as possession in most of the west they're going through ridiculous cultural struggles caused by big corporations.
I'm not saying that women need to wear a hijab, nor am I against jeans.
However sexiness should be left in the bedroom. That way other women won't feel challenged.And this is addressed to huruf, I do not blame women for anything. I do not see women as wicked or evil or as my possession. Nor do I wish to overpower them or something like that, if anything at all, and I already know that it will happen I will probably have more disadvantages than my wife because of my sex, I'm not complaining nor do I have any problems with that. So for God's sake, stop saying nonsensical stuff such as "For the other kind of men, what you say is completely useless, someof them even in fact want to be enticed, only if it is to their advantage."
My future wife is not going to be my tool. She's going to be my partner, one with whom I will share my deepest wounds and scars and whom I can entrust parts of my burden.
And guess what, she won't win me through sexiness, I am not a monkey who is a victim of his sexual desires. However, I do have a huge weakness for women with intellect and genuine femininity. -
I never meant having sexual thoughts, I meant sexual stimuli, two very different things.
If a person starts imagining scenarios then he is being perverse, however if all he did was see a women wearing tight jeans and gets aroused (without having any kind of thoughts, fantasies, visualisations) then it's a very normal and in my opinion a good thing, otherwise we wouldn't have been born.
Arousal then, no worries. It's still not the other person who is responsible for your arousal neither should they be sanctioned for it or kept away from normal activities because it's trying to preempt such arousing scenarios. Not saying you said this, but this is what happens in some parts of the world.We are responsible for ourselves and as teenagers when our horniness and hormones are kinda out of control, we learn to bring ourselves under control, not by controlling situations where we won't ever come across such and thus problem solved. As we've seen, in these types of situations, nothing is ever enough. We build gateways in our minds as we grow, and if it's a balanced growth we learn not to desire certain things because they are off limits. Some of that is natural inclination due to proximity and familiarity and some is learned. I'd opine that strangers do and should fall under the learned category where looking at a hot woman/man who is a stranger (in casual settings) shouldn't cause us more than a passing pleasurable experience. Which is what it is and we move on.
If I'm involved in an activity like praying then for one, why the heck am I even looking at someone's butt and more so than that, recognizing that it's a female butt and not a male one and that it's a hot female butt and not a non-hot female butt (I'm sure you've seen some female butts that don't in any way shape or form cause any arousal whatsoever no matter how many times you look and how)? That goes a bit beyond mere instinctive/knee jerk immediate visual arousal since one would have to be looking for them in a sense. It's like if bare breasts flickered across a bird documentary you're watching for a second, it's not enough to get the details but you know they're breasts and naked and since it's an immediate visual, the arousal/reaction is kinda knee jerk/visceral. That's understandable since one wasn't looking for it and it was forced onto ones visual field. Not the prayer one though, it's actually giving time for all these connections to take place...it may even be like one knows that female butts would be rising and falling in a submissive position there and maybe one of them is even hot and it could be in front of me, mustnotlookmustnotlook.can'thelpit.ilooked.imustlook type of situation where the scenario is already halfway there in someone's mind before they even start the activity...
Not that it matters though, immediate visual or back of the mind etc. If I'm studying and I'm sick of it somehow, my mind is looking for a diversion even if I don't consciously know it, oh look there's Matthew Healy on tv, omg he's once again without his shirt and gyrating his hips, it's just so sexy, crazy, beautiful...oops wrong gender and music genre and probably order too...okay, manly, dominating and aggressive, this is bull. Let's censor tv and men without shirts. Only the hot ones though (since I can't avoid some rationality from seeping in). This is my responsibility. I have to realize what I'm doing and what I should be doing. Not Matthew Healy, bless his chest and hips. One could say turn off all distractions while studying but then the clock on my wall making those ticking noises would piss me off and distract me again. It wouldn't be sexual but hey, it's not as if I'm looking for something sexual, sexuality is just one of the more stimulating diversions which readily get peoples attention and emotions riled up and mostly only happens when I'm the one who's looking for it. They aren't out to get me.
The solution isn't to minimize distractions. The solution is to train ourselves because reality is not going to conform to our comfort zones and those trying to control it and make it a certain way which is beneficial for themselves is only treading on other people's comfort zones or rights as they may be in this case or others. The same issue raised in praying together is used in many different places, like co-ed education for example. One can argue for or against any of these things but the reality is, that like children we learn and grow with conflicts and differences and all that jazz. Give a child all the comforts, lack of distractions, amenities etc they could possibly need and they grow up stunted brats. Same way keep them away from the realities, they grow up delusional or somesuch. Familiarity helps us to get over basic stuff that trips up others not used to such. Sexual desire, arousal, thoughts call it what you will, anything falling under the sexual category needs to be faced head on, not swept under the carpet, like you say, it's healthy, a normal part of ourselves. So people need to learn how to deal with it as their personal responsibility first and foremost before shifting it outward. One we've done that however, the rest doesn't really seem as big of a deal as it used to be.
The way I see it, sex is a gift to us humans, it's nothing bad, it's a very natural, healthy (when in an engagement/only one partner) and enriching activity. Anyone who is sexualy healthy is going to have sexual stimuli which is, as said above, not perverse, not a visualisation of thoughts or anything alike.
Put a person to sleep and play with the body and s/he will get an erection or swelling of the inside of the vagina, it is nothing to be ashamed of, it's the way our body has been constructed. The person sleeping may not even be dreaming of anything sexual, however the body will react, that is a sexual stimuli.
Of course such a stimuli can also occur through thoughts, but those are not the ones I'm talking about.
True.Buttock is one of the two parts, buttocks refers to the butt.
It's a meaty word.What I meant was simply getting a sexual stimuli, which I've explained before as being something very natural and even (In my opinion) healthy. I wouldn't even for one second want to be sexually stimulated when praying, getting into contact with God. I would even prefer to have all of my surrounding disappear and be left in soltitude inside of my mind with nothing around me besides God. The least thing I'd like in such a moment is hunger/thirst/excitement for something (wether it be a movie or a date) and definitely not a sexual stimuli.
I find that when I'm really engrossed in something, I wouldn't care even if Matthew Healy was actually standing right in front of me without his shirt, and even if those hips were moving. Not that it's happened often or even once but, something to think about. Say one does get distracted when trying to pray, so what, we learn how to build our focus up again. Why is only a sexual diversion the big issue here. A guy/girl could fart in front of you via their buttocks which I readily admit causes more than a couple minutes of actual consternation. I think that's a serious issue that we should be talking about way more than a woman's butt in front of a man since it happens often enough to cause entire ranks of the prayerful to lose focus rather than a couple horny guys.People adapt to their surroundings, if we live in a state in which women walk around half nude, changes are high one's own female family members are going to walk around just like that.
Wearing push-up underwear and bra. Unaware that wearing push-ups or even just tight shirts which lift the breasts leads into loose and weak upperchest muscles which in turns results into the breasts hanging even more. The desire to fake good looks results into looking even worse than one did before.
No problem though, nowadays people use silicon as a countermeasurement........
If one has had a breast removal duo to breast cancer, then that'd be understandable, however the mere desire to be more attractive is ridiculous.
The porn industry is ruining the world.
I don't get what the connection to praying is. Please explain how it relates?One should be attracted to the face, the smell, the voice and all those innocent yet deciding factors. People wearing make-up with the desire to look nice, unkowing that these products contain chemical poison which ruin their skin, again getting even further away from the desired results, ruining what one has by nature.
I see 12 year old girls wearing jeans wich're eating their butts. Just so that they don't lose to the "competition". Sick sick mentality.
I don't see women and think slut. How could I think such a thing of a 12 year old girl?? What if I get a daughter and when she turns 18 starts wearing the same clothes that I despise? I think poor victim of society.
It's no sign of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. And we have many sick societies(plural? I don't know).
Not saying that the major muslim countries are better, in many places women are being suppressed.
I'm sure that this deserves a thread of its own.The least thing that I'd accept is for people to say that I a suppress female rights, I am a feminist. Not an egalitarianist, I fight for female rights, and it is a right for the women of all societies to not be a victim. In most of the middle east they're being seen as possession in most of the west they're going through ridiculous cultural struggles caused by big corporations.
I'm not saying that women need to wear a hijab, nor am I against jeans.
However sexiness should be left in the bedroom. That way other women won't feel challenged.
Sexiness is subjective. What may be sexy to you can be run of the mill to another guy or girl. In either case, we need to work on ourselves since we can't heal the world and make it all alright but we do what little we can where we can. -
I have nothing, absolutely nothing against any member of this forum. But when I see an arrow and see where it is going to hit and see it hitting, I am not going to shut up not for the sake of "good maners" do as if I hadn't seen where it was going to hit and where it hit.
The fact is that such a simple thing as acting lead in prayers, has been turned into a gate for a greater purpose forget about prayers and women' espirituality or spirituality and comunion with God in general and let us return to the important thing in this world which is MALES and their requirements, exigences, perquisies, stattu quo...
To start with
stand in front of men.Requirement number one for males to claim that leading prayers by a woman cannot be because she would stand in front of men.
Several times I have said that that is not necessary, she could be standing in front of women. If we have raws for men and raws for women, then she could stand in front of the women raws.
It is simple enough, but it has been overlooked sysematically in the thread because, we do know, even if we won't accept that we know, we do know that the question of prayers is not the question, the question is the perquisites and the rest is just excuse.
Stalling...
Some people also try always to turn these kinds of questions into a battle of the sexes that the feminists are pushing for. And that tey are men haters and so on. As soon as the going gets rough "some" males resort to that kind of stalling.
We are full of those tricks.
Do not play the tricks and nobody will call them out.
But if you (whoever) play them you have to stick with as much calling outs as come along and from my point of view too few tricks are called out. Most go by unchallenged.
Salaam
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Not the prayer one though, it's actually giving time for all these connections to take place...it may even be like one knows that female butts would be rising and falling in a submissive position there and maybe one of them is even hot and it could be in front of me, mustnotlookmustnotlook.can'thelpit.ilooked.imustlook type of situation where the scenario is already halfway there in someone's mind before they even start the activity...
My point, knowing that the activity is happening in front of you. It's like saying don't think of a pink elephant, and all of a sudden you start visualizing.
The solution isn't to minimize distractions. The solution is to train ourselves because reality is not going to conform to our comfort zones and those trying to control it and make it a certain way which is beneficial for themselves is only treading on other people's comfort zones or rights as they may be in this case or others. The same issue raised in praying together is used in many different places, like co-ed education for example.
I do not see any problem with having sexual "desires" towards others. It's natural, it's ok, it's even good up to some degree. However one should be capable of saying no to these desires, one should be capable of lowering the ego.
If a woman were to offer me sex, as a man I've got nothing to lose, not even society is going to think low of me, worst case scenario she's going to get pregnant, why should I care. However that's where lowering the ego is important, learn to reduce the desire to maximize one's own profit (whether it be materialistic or non-materialistic).I'm against trying to train ourselves like dogs (which I love).
I am of the honest opinion that unconscious thoughts are not controllable. Instead one should work on controlling one's lust.
For example, some people who are doing this are pedophiles, many pedophiles are victims of their sexual orientation, if one could simply train away one's own lust, they'd be the first ones to do so. Many of them get castrated and probably even hormone therapy so that they can control themselves. With them, it's a different case, their sexual desires are not "ok", and many of them know it and are trying their best to live normal lives.Why is only a sexual diversion the big issue here. A guy/girl could fart in front of you via their buttocks which I readily admit causes more than a couple minutes of actual consternation. I think that's a serious issue that we should be talking about way more than a woman's butt in front of a man since it happens often enough to cause entire ranks of the prayerful to lose focus rather than a couple horny guys.
rotfl
It isn't a "big" issue. It's the question of the topic.
The idea of someone "leading" a prayer in and of itself is weird. In my opinion!I don't get what the connection to praying is. Please explain how it relates?
I'm sure that this deserves a thread of its own.I'm not the one who started talking about clothes -X
But since clothes became such a big topic, and I got categorized as one who " a spiritual question concerning women into a clothes show".
I thought why not mention my ideas regarding clothes.
You're right though, it does deserve a thread of it's own.Sexiness is subjective. What may be sexy to you can be run of the mill to another guy or girl.
I meant the desire to be attractive should be left for the bedroom.
Many women are seeing other women as a threat, as rivals, the less clothes one starts wearing, the more other women will do the same, eventually the "norm" will change.
Imagine a woman walking around in leggings and a belly top in the year 1920. She'd immediately feel uncomfortable, because the people of back then would have reacted with a "wtf" expression.
Nowadays people start wearing more and more provocative clothes, so that they too can be considered "attractive". That's what I was getting at.
I agree that beauty is subjective.In either case, we need to work on ourselves since we can't heal the world and make it all alright but we do what little we can where we can.
Oh actually, I do plan on starting a fourth wave feminism, and even if I should fail, I hope to at least give birth to some sparks which may lead into a flame. I just need to put my hypotheses into a scientific work and I've got ideas for experiments.
I think we can partially influence other people.
Though this deserves another topic as well, and I don't plan on revealing my ideas. -
I have nothing, absolutely nothing against any member of this forum.
Oh that's nice to read D I've got nothing against you neither.
But when I see an arrow and see where it is going to hit and see it hitting, I am not going to shut up not for the sake of "good maners" do as if I hadn't seen where it was going to hit and where it hit.
What I am trying to tell you is that, I am not shooting my arrow towards that target. It may look so from your perspective, but it really isn't.
The fact is that such a simple thing as acting lead in prayers, has been turned into a gate for a greater purpose forget about prayers and women' espirituality or spirituality and comunion with God in general and let us return to the important thing in this world which is MALES and their requirements, exigences, perquisies, stattu quo...
I don't get the point of having a "person" or "group" lead a prayer in the first place.
Where did I ever say anything about males requirements, exigences, perquisies, stattu quo etc. etc.?
If you were to make a topic about that I'd probably position myself with you, however in this particular scenario, I have to , because of my personal understanding, take the opposite position.To start with
stand in front of men.Requirement number one for males to claim that leading prayers by a woman cannot be because she would stand in front of men.
Several times I have said that that is not necessary, she could be standing in front of women. If we have raws for men and raws for women, then she could stand in front of the women raws.
I admit that I haven't read all 23 pages of this thread. Never saw such a suggestion.
In that scenario, I have no problem with a woman leading the prayer, however the topic of this thread was a woman leading both men and women mixed behind her. different scenarios.It is simple enough, but it has been overlooked sysematically in the thread because, we do know, even if we won't accept that we know, we do know that the question of prayers is not the question, the question is the perquisites and the rest is just excuse.
Stalling...
Some people also try always to turn these kinds of questions into a battle of the sexes that the feminists are pushing for. And that tey are men haters and so on. As soon as the going gets rough "some" males resort to that kind of stalling.
I'm a feminist myself
I at the moment am not of the opinion that a group/mass prayer is in any way more beneficial than praying in solitude.
However when forced into the situation/scenario that this thread requires, I'd be against it.We are full of those tricks.
Do not play the tricks and nobody will call them out.
But if you (whoever) play them you have to stick with as much calling outs as come along and from my point of view too few tricks are called out. Most go by unchallenged.
Salaam
That's what I'm trying to get at!! I am not playing those tricks that you accuse me of.
How would you feel if I said that you're simply trying to have men be submissive?
Not saying you are, but you'd probably react the way I am doing right now. NOT TRUE.If only we would consider what Allah has instructed us to do
and that is to lower the gaze and dress modestly hmmbravo
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My point, knowing that the activity is happening in front of you. It's like saying don't think of a pink elephant, and all of a sudden you start visualizing.
Since pink elephants couldn't possibly put you in a state of sexual arousal (hopefully) it's an easier distraction to deal with yes? just like honking horns on the street across the mosque or whatever. If any distraction is equally distracting then perhaps we need to be more mindful of what we're actually there to do since there will always be distractions.I do not see any problem with having sexual "desires" towards others. It's natural, it's ok, it's even good up to some degree. However one should be capable of saying no to these desires, one should be capable of lowering the ego.
If a woman were to offer me sex, as a man I've got nothing to lose, not even society is going to think low of me, worst case scenario she's going to get pregnant, why should I care. However that's where lowering the ego is important, learn to reduce the desire to maximize one's own profit (whether it be materialistic or non-materialistic).
learning to = trainingI'm against trying to train ourselves like dogs (which I love).
I am of the honest opinion that unconscious thoughts are not controllable. Instead one should work on controlling one's lust.
For example, some people who are doing this are pedophiles, many pedophiles are victims of their sexual orientation, if one could simply train away one's own lust, they'd be the first ones to do so. Many of them get castrated and probably even hormone therapy so that they can control themselves. With them, it's a different case, their sexual desires are not "ok", and many of them know it and are trying their best to live normal lives.
I mentioned external events/related subconscious thoughts as what it is, learning to deal with them when they occur is in our control for the most part. If that's training like a dog, I'm not sure what to say other than woof. we appear to be already trained as Pavlov's dogs by salivating at the sight of women's butts instead of a bell however, perhaps it's more about unlearningIt isn't a "big" issue. It's the question of the topic.
The idea of someone "leading" a prayer in and of itself is weird. In my opinion!
It is a big issue because sexual stuff is a big issue in most parts. there is never any equal time devoted to farts or street noises or body odor as there is about women, their clothes and sex. This is pretty much how it's always been, leaving prayer aside, take most any topic...sex and related stuff is big and other things, not so much, can be dealt with so on and so forth. Two different things, leading prayer and a woman leading prayer.I'm not the one who started talking about clothes -X
But since clothes became such a big topic, and I got categorized as one who " a spiritual question concerning women into a clothes show".
I thought why not mention my ideas regarding clothes.
You're right though, it does deserve a thread of it's own.haven't read most of the thread but yes.
I meant the desire to be attractive should be left for the bedroom.
Many women are seeing other women as a threat, as rivals, the less clothes one starts wearing, the more other women will do the same, eventually the "norm" will change.
Imagine a woman walking around in leggings and a belly top in the year 1920. She'd immediately feel uncomfortable, because the people of back then would have reacted with a "wtf" expression.
Nowadays people start wearing more and more provocative clothes, so that they too can be considered "attractive". That's what I was getting at.
I agree that beauty is subjective.Not everyone does that however, in the US for example, women dress more or less normally even if some are wearing almost nothing. It's about comfort levels and finding them. If one is balanced, they tend to stick somewhere between utility and attractiveness. It's the growing up part and finding ourselves which is where people experiment with different things. Extremes tend towards exceptions and most people fall into the normal zone. We tend to see those and inflate it, same thing with music, games, media, clothing what have you.
Oh actually, I do plan on starting a fourth wave feminism, and even if I should fail, I hope to at least give birth to some sparks which may lead into a flame. I just need to put my hypotheses into a scientific work and I've got ideas for experiments.
I think we can partially influence other people.
Though this deserves another topic as well, and I don't plan on revealing my ideas.
good luck ) -
I have no problem with a woman leading the prayer, however the topic of this thread was a woman leading both men and women mixed behind her. different scenarios.
You are great. of course the topic is a woman ledig both men and women. The part about me and women mixedbehind her you have added out of your awn creativeness at this point.
Nobody yet has touches mixing men ad women in a raw. This is also stallig, changing what is being talked about intosomething else.
The question is a woman leading a mixed prayer can stand in fronnt of he women o need to stand i front of the men. You know the men are just a sex, i f a man can stand in front of them to lead mixed prayers what makes it impossible for a woman to sand in front of the women to lead mixed prayers?
And ok it is veyr nice you do not want anybody to be in front of anybody else. So anytime you go to mosque yu are not going to like it anyway sowhy would it be more distasteful if nybody stands in front that it is a woman and not a man.It is fantastic that you have such great prospectfor your wife, but there are any more women in the world that your wife. A woman who goes to prayers or wants to participate fully in a mosque and happen no tto be your wife should not be precluded from doing it because you are so good to your wife.
Women are not the wives of everybody else, and should be respected as such women by everybody not just by their husband. They are women because God made them so, not because anybody marries them.
Salaam
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Nobody yet has touches mixing men ad women in a raw.
probably 'cause we haven't visualized the side breast yet? I can start the ball rolling and make up some evolutionary theories about the powers they hold if need be, then again I'm pretty sure someone with a lot of time and frustration on his hands out there has already let loose a fatwa over it. -
Did anyone consider this
The skimpy clothes of women are simply trend from corporations. At the end of the day, everyone feels hot and cold. Its just the trend and media which tell us that women need to wear revealing clothes (even in winter as if it is not oppression). Drop them and you will find everyone regardless of the gender dressing up modestly. Trust me, not all women want to dress the way they do right from the heart. So far these are some of the things I have been told
"Uncomfortable to wear, but these are the only kinds available"
"This is in fashion"
"Women need to reveal some skin"Since I worked in a store during my first few college years I do know that corporations don't give them much choice. Also very few are capable of standing up against the society and media. Everyone wishes to fit in.
media is very influencial and does set trends, but i think the point of the thread is what does the quran say regardless of what anyone desires to do
i just know for a fact that women stare at men as much as men stare at women, and when everyone is dressed modestly the problem of "why are men such pigs staring as us pure maiden angel women" disappears
i'm going to talk about this issue to some relatives who think like that, that men are all pigs and women are maidens who never poo or fart
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If only we would consider what Allah has instructed us to do
and that is to lower the gaze and dress modestly hmmtoday if i had to lower it every time i have to, i would be dead in a car accident or be run over by a bus because i'd be staring at the ground all the time
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Not at all, keep your eyes up and stay sharp. Mend those instincts which desire instead and find methods of not thinking of mating at the sight of someone of the opposite sex.
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I suppose I have to summarise this thread
Women can only lead a congregation prayer if all the congregation were"saints and prophets" because of the "buttock" thingy.
Men can lead any congregation because the "buttock" thingy does not arise. every member of the congregation has "praying to GOD" on their mind only.
No Qoran verses were provided to clearly establish why women cannot lead a congregation to prayer.That good logic suggestion of "praying on the beach" was nonsensical, How dare he even suggest that or "praying naked"? even if it was intended as "humour"?
May be he was suggesting to concentrate on your prayer to GOD Alone regardless of who was leading the prayer and what they were wearing!!!
So shall we try again? Why can only men lead a congregation prayer?
Perhaps not!
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Well, in Islam The World Religion, I guess you'll find the answer in some book of hadith or some sayings of sunnah. Other than that, there is no Islam. There is no system that people will agree on. There is no system outlined by the Quran, because we'll never agree on such a thing. So, the only thing remaining is to let each faction do as they wish, if they insist on congregational prayer. If you're not happy with the rules of one group, then find another group or form your own. Forget Quran-alone groups... as there will never be consensus on what the Quran alone says. To each his/her own. Even when we are instructed to not be divided in factions, we insist on finding the ultimate, pure, true system free from corruption. Well, just looking for such a system/set/package is inventing division. Systems are division. Good luck humanity. bravo
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Peace Zulf.
Please do not give up,at least not on GOD Alone.
I am sure with all our differences ,providing we accept each other as we are, there must be hope that at least we can live in peace with each other.
So what if your fellow human went to a synagogue,or prayed in a church,or went to a temple or did a congregation prayer behind a man or a woman or.... If they stop their wars,aggression,lording it above each other,fighting each other,hating each other,gossiping,back biting,ridiculing,claiming their religion is the truth...etc You never know,just may be , now or in 100 years or so... GOD Alone will unite them?
Anyway,brother ,GOD bless you.
Peace.