What if fasting had nothing to do with "ramadan" ?
-
Well, even if it had nothing to do with ramadan, in my opinion everyone who's healthy should fast.
And when I speak of fasting I mean for a whole month, not 3 to 10 days.30 days straight in a row, 18 hours of no eating 6 hours for eating.
The intake during these 6 hours should be healthy. No cola/fanta or candy. Instead make sure to intake your fats/proteins/calories.
In my opinion subjective theories should be dismissed when talking about religion or about science. When one has a thesis one should try
to test this very thesis and be open-minded when coming to a conclusion. The Quran after all does order us to inform ourselves and choose only the best of options.Intermittent fasting is actually being researched and is a current topic in science/medicine.
just search on scholar google for intermittent fasting and inform yourselves about the benefits, after all this is a task given to all of us. We are blessed with the opportunity to inform ourselves in a way that no other generation has EVER had, and yet we don't confront this knowledge even though it interests us. I'm not saying that this is an easy thing to do, you may end up spending hundreds of hours and still not come to a conclusion, however that's all the more reason to do so.I personally came to the conclusions that fasting results in better insulin levels, higher levels of human growth hormone, better hearth health, prevention against cancer, longevity, and health of brain (alzheimer prevention).
These however, are my personal conclusions.Note that when reading scholarly work, depending on the field, different types of terminology may be required, however I see no reasons as in to why one shouldn't be able to read some introductory work into the fields one is interested about.
Lots of love. peace
Let's delve into the realm of knowledge all together. -
Peace everyone !
@Wakas
I agree about the particle fa, yet could it be used here as a particle of cause rather than a resumption particle ?
And even apart from this particle, the two statements a) and b) can be unrelated when it comes to the term shahr, don't you think ?
What I mean here is it is possible that the it in the command "let him fast in it" relates to shahr (i.e. any shahr) of statement b), and not shahr ramadan of statement a).
What do you think ?@Study
I agree that anyone healthy should fast. I consider it as a good way to strengthen one's will, so that he or she may free herself from the worldly desires and learn to control them, rather than the other way around.
As for the duration of fast, I do not agree with the whole month statement because I see shahr as meaning full moon indeed, putting aside the benefits of fasting, when it comes to the verse 2185, I fail to see how one could witness a month ? On the other hand, witnessing the full moon is rather an easy thing to do.Peace
-
Peace everyone !
@Wakas
I agree about the particle fa, yet could it be used here as a particle of cause rather than a resumption particle ?
And even apart from this particle, the two statements a) and b) can be unrelated when it comes to the term shahr, don't you think ?
What I mean here is it is possible that the it in the command "let him fast in it" relates to shahr (i.e. any shahr) of statement b), and not shahr ramadan of statement a).
What do you think ?Even if it was interpreted as a cause/consequential particle, it still links back to what was said previously and connects the statements before and after. As I said, anything else would be a minority usage (assuming we can find some clear examples of the alleged minority usage in Quran).
As a side note, it says "so/then whoever witnesses the shahr".
Based on the evidence presented so far, SG's interpretation is not the strongest.
-
Peace Wakas and everyone else,
As a side note, it says "so/then whoever witnesses the shahr".
Based on the evidence presented so far, SG's interpretation is not the strongest.
And I agree with you, I myself am not really convinced, but here are the points that still bug me (I am sorry I insist, I don't mean to be a pain in the neck about this)
- The ramadan time frame issue (?)
I don't really know if it is an issue in itself, maybe is my reasoning totally wrong here, but what do you think about what I said earlier
If we were to consider the full moon of scorching heat (in July, if we consider this period to be in July) to be the signal telling us it is time to fast and justify this by saying it is because this particular full moon is a commemoration of laylatou-l qadr, during which was sent down the Reading, I would then tell you that this explanation does not add up after all, the full moons don't appear at the same time each year. That means that we will never know at what precise date was the full moon of scorching heat of the period of the Revelation. That being said, how could we commemorate it properly (as a fixed event) today ?
We can think of a birthday to illustrate this
• The birthday takes place the same day each year, so it can be properly commemorated as a fixed event because we know the EXACT DATE of said-event.
• It is not the case of the revelation of the Qur'an even if it is a fixed (and past) event in time, we cannot commemorate it properly because all we know is that it was revealed on the night of a full moon during a period of scorching heat (unless you consider shahr ramadan to mean the red full moon, but even then, it does not change the reasoning because...) The full moon is not a fixed event for instance, a full moon will appears the 19th of July this year, and the 9th of July next year.
- The fa particle and the al particle
It is a fact that verse 2185 says " so/then whoever witnesses the shahr ".
It is also a fact that, usually, the expression "the+object" refers to a known and specific object because of the definite article "the", which is even more true if said-expression was, like it is the case here, preceded by a particle like fa, that will connect this object to an object mentioned in a previous statement (and usually, it will be the same object). Usually.Let's take an example with, so to speak, the same form as the verse 2185
"The forum of free-minds.org is that in which the Reading is discussed. So whoever among you sign up at the forum, let him participate in it".It is crystal clear here that "the forum" in the sentence "So whoever among you sign up to the forum " is a reference to "the forum of free-minds.org" of the first sentence.
However, I don't know why, something niggles at me about this verse. As strange as it can seems (and it was already the case before I read Sam Gerrans' work), I can see the two sentences "A full moon of scorching heat was that in which the Reading was sent down " and "So whoever among you witnesses the full moon, let him fast in it " as "stand-alone" statements, despite the "So" of the second statement that could just implies, to me, that the fast has to take place during the same celestial event (the full moon) than the one that happened during the Revelation of the Reading, but not necessarily at the same period, which is ramadan (and here, we go back to the first issue I raised earlier, namely, 1) The ramadan time-frame issue).
The particle al in al shahr ("the full moon" is, to me, a normal expression when it comes to the full moon don't we usually say, for example, "look ! the full moon !" or "Did you see the full moon ?" rather than "look! a full moon !" or "Did you see a full moon ?" ? Maybe because the full moon is a known event in itself (more known than the forum of free-minds that I used in a previous example) ?... like here I just said "the full moon is a known event", not "a full moon is a known event", even if the later form is, of course, acceptable. After all, doesn't the Qur'an say "aqimu al-salat" while talking about the salat in general, not a specific salat ? Could it be the same case here, as the salat and the shahr are supposed to be well known things ?
Besides, why hasn't God said "this" instead of "the" if He wanted to mean "the full moon of scorching heat" ("so/then whoever witnesses this shahr" ? Or even "shahr ramadan" instead of "the shahr" (I know, it would be redundant, but still) ? Wouldn't it be clearer then that it refers to the particular "full moon of scorching heat" ? But yet again, even if it is just "the", and it is the case here, to me it does not necessarily means "the" full moon of scorching heat like I explained earlier.
I don't know if I am being clear here with what I am saying, because sometimes I do confuse people when I try to explain something to them (not that it is their fault, but rather mine)...
I am not saying I am right about this interpretation of 2185, maybe am I wrong, but I'd just like to have your opinions (and not just Wakas's or Study's opinions, who I thank very much for trying to help me here, but anybody else who has one (obviously lol)) about the 2 issues I raised in this very post...... Peace ^^
-
Peace everyone !
@Wakas
I agree about the particle fa, yet could it be used here as a particle of cause rather than a resumption particle ?
And even apart from this particle, the two statements a) and b) can be unrelated when it comes to the term shahr, don't you think ?
What I mean here is it is possible that the it in the command "let him fast in it" relates to shahr (i.e. any shahr) of statement b), and not shahr ramadan of statement a).
What do you think ?Peace bro,
There is no "IN" in "let him fast in it" which you wrote above.
-
Peace to you all and sorry for the late answer,
@mmkhan
I agree, but the translation I gave was from Sam Gerrans, who by the way explains himself, in his book (page 117, footnote #447) why he uses "let him fast in it" rather than "let him fast it". But I am not a linguist and I am not so good in Arabic grammar, so I can't say if what he says is good or not.@Bender
The whole thing does make sense to me, I am just asking if the "common" understanding of this verse on this forum is as solid as it seems ?
To make it simple, I see two "interpretations"• God has revealed the Qur'an during a full moon of scorching heat, and therefore asks us to fast that very moon if we witness it. (How to fast that specific moon, as we don't know when exactly it happened ? And even if we did know, full moons never occur at the same date each year.)
• God has revealed the Qur'an during a full moon of scorching heat, and therefore asks us to fast every full moon we witness.
See, I am not trying to fix anything by force, it is just that the second proposition does make sense to me, but somehow, the first one does too.
The question is, which one is the good one ? -
peace Ezio,
Perhaps I can help a little
And even if we did know, full moons never occur at the same date each year.)
Does it not occurring on the same date in a made-up Gregorian calendar mean that one cannot identify which moon it was?
I haven't studied the Quranic calendar system that much, but let's say al quran was revealed during the 7th full moon of the year - is it possible to identify the 7th full moon of the year? Yes/No.
If no, then you may have a point.
If yes, then abstinence during it (or whatever) is possible.
-
Peace Wakas,
I agree with the fact that, following your example, we can, indeed, identify the 7th full moon of the year, each year.
However, and even if we do not use the Gregorian or any existing calendar, we see that, if we count the number of days from the first full moon till the 7th, the count of days will not be the same each year that means that the 7th full moon of the year of the Revelation does not necessarily occur the same day (or night) than the 7th full moon of this year for instance.
Does it make sense ?
-
Peace Wakas,
peace,
Yes, but Quran does not say Day X.Well, it does say that shahr ramadhan was the night of the Revelation and unless I am mistaken, the Qur'an was revealed as a book in one single night (shahr ramadhan, a.k.a. here, laylatou l-qadr) so in a way, the Reading does say "day X", more specifically, the day of the Revelation.
Now if you just read the verse 2185 without a priori, and multiple times if need be, maybe you'll understand what I understand, that the full moon mentioned in the second statement can refer to any full moon of the year
"A full moon of scorching heat was that in which the Reading was sent down, as guidance for mankind, and clear evidence of the guidance and the division So Whoever among you witnesses the full moon, let him fast in it "
Peace
-
Peace everyone !
I see nobody else seems to have an opinion on this fasting thing.
Anyway, I was looking for something else when I found some ahadith about the fact of fasting 3 days in a row each month.
Keep in mind that I do not give any authority whatsoever to the ahadith corpus but only to the Qur'an, the only hadith that needs to be followed when it comes to islam. However, I consider this to be a "funny fact" pertaining to the very issue of this thread; maybe is it a "vestige" if I may say, of how fasting was truly practised at the times of the revelation...Here are the concerned ahadith (the bold parts are from me)
-
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported My friend (the Messenger of Allah) (PBUH) directed me to observe fast for three days in every month, to perform two Rak`ah (optional) Duha prayer at forenoon and to perform the Witr prayer before going to bed.
. -
Abud-Darda (May Allah be pleased with him) reported My friend (the Messenger of Allah) (PBUH) directed me to observe Saum (fasting) for three days in every month, to perform two Rak`ah (optional) Duha prayer at forenoon, and to perform the Witr prayer before going to bed.
. -
Abdullah binAmr bin Al-`As (May Allah be pleased with them) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Observing Saum (fasting) on three days of every month is equivalent to a full month's fasting.''
. -
Mu
adhah Al-Adawiyah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported I asked `Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her). Did the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) use to observe three days of Saum (fasting) in every month?'' She replied, "Yes.'' I asked, "On which days in the month did he observed fast?'' She replied that he did not mind on which days of the month he observed fast.
.
Commentary This Hadith makes it clear that one can observe Saum on any three days of the month, and it is not necessary to fix these days. However, it is more meritorious to observe Saum on 13th, 14th and 15th of each lunar month because the Prophet (PBUH) has so ordained it. He himself also used to take special care of these dates and observe Saum on them, as is evident from the forthcoming Ahadith.
-
Abu Dharr (May Allah be pleased with him) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "If you want to observe Saum on three days in a month, then fast on the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth of the (lunar) month.''
. -
Qatadah bin Milhan (May Allah be pleased with him) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) directed us to observe Saum (fasting) on the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth of the (lunar) month.
. -
Ibn
Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) reported It was the practice of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to not to omit fast onbright days' whether he was staying at a place or on a journey.
.
Commentary "Beed'' is the plural of "Abyad'' which means white. Three days of 13, 14 and 15 of lunar month are called "Al-Ayyam-ul-Beed'' for the reason that their nights are bright because of the moonlight. The moon begins to diminish gradually after these days. In any case, it is evident from the Ahadith mentioned here that observance of Saum on these days is more meritorious but one can do so with benefit on other days also.
Source http//www.muslimguide.se/Prophet_Muhammad/All-Hadith/R_S/vil/hadeeth/riyad/08/chap230.htm
Again, those are ahadith, so not to be taken as God-given commands, but I don't think I need to remind you of that now, do I ? ^^
Peace
-
-
Selam,
does anybody know for sure how many days we should fast? Should we fast whole month? or just a few days?
And what about festival of the sacrifice, is this from Quran?
And what about festival of breaking of the fast, Eid al Fitr? Is this from Quran?
I would really like to know this.
Peace
-
Peace,
Selam,
does anybody know for sure how many days we should fast? Should we fast whole month? or just a few days?
I would advise you to look through the other debates and forum threads on this section, and research yourself to come up with your own conclusion. No, I doubt anyone knows "for sure", as everyone has different opinions and conclusions from their research. )
What about the festival of the sacrifice, is this from Quran?
Not sure. Haven't looked into it.
And what about festival of breaking of the fast, Eid al Fitr? Is this from Quran?
Don't believe so. I'm almost 99% sure that "Eid" isn't even mentioned by name.I would really like to know this.
Peace
peace
-
Peace,
I would advise you to look through the other debates and forum threads on this section, and research yourself to come up with your own conclusion. No, I doubt anyone knows "for sure", as everyone has different opinions and conclusions from their research. )
Not sure. Haven't looked into it.
Don't believe so. I'm almost 99% sure that "Eid" isn't even mentioned by name.peace
Selam sister,
This is very difficult, i know qadr night is mentioned, i wish someone with a lot of knowledge would come and explain everything. Why Quran only Muslims do not have a scholar to ask such questions? And i am reading many posts, but i am not even sure if ramadan is this month, because some say it is in winter. And there is another tread with 252 pages, so it will take me days to read all of that.
If it is not from Quran The Festivals, where did it come from?
Peace
-
Selam sister,
This is very difficult, i know qadr night is mentioned, i wish someone with a lot of knowledge would come and explain everything. Why Quran only Muslims do not have a scholar to ask such questions? And i am reading many posts, but i am not even sure if ramadan is this month, because some say it is in winter. And there is another tread with 252 pages, so it will take me days to read all of that.
If it is not from Quran The Festivals, where did it come from?
Peace
Salaam,
Wishing someone with a lot of knowledge would come along is nice, but if someone here comes and claims that they are a scholar, would you just believe anything they said, blindly? I, personally, don't want to fall into that. I would check and double check their sources of knowledge at least, if they were claiming that they possessed the absolute truth.
We don't have scholars who follow this "ideology" because (1) perhaps they haven't entertained the idea, (2) are too convinced in the authenticity of their hadith scholars and hadith science before them, and (3) it's dangerous for them to be open about it.
Where did the festivals come from? I don't know, cultural tradition? Hadith?
You don't have to read all the posts in a thread. There will always be posts of varying quality within a single thread. You can skim through and still find the information you're looking for, I'm sure. You only have to devote a little bit of time of reading or studying per day, so this doesn't have to be something that you rush through, or something that you find one answer for and then you're done. Take your time learning and don't rush yourself. It's about the journey, not the destination. ) If you are in doubt, just follow tradition. I really doubt following tradition is going to hurt you, because after all you are still upholding God's commandment to fast.
Peace. )
-
Fasting is originally done to balance our body, mind helpful for the individual and society. Time and duration depends on the convenience and environment that induces to fast. Astronomical events involving the moon sun and climate helps in deciding the repeating patterns in life of our ancestors.
I do not have much idea about Arabian climate but here in India most festivals has astronomical significance like full moon day of a particular month, even monsoon(seasonal rainfall) decides the festivals which brings goodness along with it, like end of winter, end of the rainy season etc.
Environment plays a major role in life style of people, One of the way people's react to those is fasting. People too should have fasted to ward of certain insects, animals and also hidden mocrobes that forms only in certain environmental conditions or seasons. -
Salaam,
Wishing someone with a lot of knowledge would come along is nice, but if someone here comes and claims that they are a scholar, would you just believe anything they said, blindly? I, personally, don't want to fall into that. I would check and double check their sources of knowledge at least, if they were claiming that they possessed the absolute truth.
We don't have scholars who follow this "ideology" because (1) perhaps they haven't entertained the idea, (2) are too convinced in the authenticity of their hadith scholars and hadith science before them, and (3) it's dangerous for them to be open about it.
Where did the festivals come from? I don't know, cultural tradition? Hadith?
You don't have to read all the posts in a thread. There will always be posts of varying quality within a single thread. You can skim through and still find the information you're looking for, I'm sure. You only have to devote a little bit of time of reading or studying per day, so this doesn't have to be something that you rush through, or something that you find one answer for and then you're done. Take your time learning and don't rush yourself. It's about the journey, not the destination. If you are in doubt, just follow tradition. I really doubt following tradition is going to hurt you, because after all you are still upholding God's commandment to fast.
Peace.
Selam,
maybe following tradition will hurt me, that is why i want the truth. We are not allowed to pray to sun and moon. And if we have festivals that celebrate something like this, than i am not sure if this is correct. Than comes to question if the fast is for 10 days, would such a festival not be 20 days earlier?
And there are scholars who are very Quran oriented https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8&list=LLvAcGp9QKvlW5BgXjawaxwQ&index=32
Maybe you want to see his view, he is a very nice man and you can find more on youtube and google about him, I wish i could ask him questionsPeace
-
Selam,
maybe following tradition will hurt me, that is why i want the truth. We are not allowed to pray to sun and moon. And if we have festivals that celebrate something like this, than i am not sure if this is correct. Than comes to question if the fast is for 10 days, would such a festival not be 20 days earlier?
And there are scholars who are very Quran oriented https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8&list=LLvAcGp9QKvlW5BgXjawaxwQ&index=32
Maybe you want to see his view, he is a very nice man and you can find more on youtube and google about him, I wish i could ask him questionsPeace
I liked the talk. You could tell the other guy was perplexed that he did not go along with the Sunni narrative and used The Quran and his intellect. People need to realize that The Quran is not about a religion. There is no clergy, there are no mindless rituals, you need to turn on your brain, and beliefs and actions go over which team you play for and what kind of jersey you wear. Also, I especially liked that he pointed out that shirk was more than polytheism, mentioning that Jews take Rabbis as partners next to God (and that verse in The Quran also mentions Christians), as an example. If only he went further and said that Muslims do the same...
