What if fasting had nothing to do with "ramadan" ?
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Peace brothers and sisters )
First of all, be aware that I have read many of the posts relative to the issue of ramadan and fasting. Yet I did not find an answer regarding what I am about to present here.
I recently stumbled upon the work of a man by the name of Sam Gerrans, a muslim following the Qur'an only.
He introduces himself as, and I quote, an "English writer, translator, language trainer, support counsellor, and activist".
Here are his websiteshttp//samgerrans.com/
https//quranite.com/The later website is the one of interest to us here. I wanted to present him to you as I find his work with regard to the Qur'an very interesting.
On the very subject of fasting, I found myself stuck in his understanding of the verse 2185 (I invite you to download the latest version of his pdf translation of the Qur'an (heavily footnoted) named "The Qur'an, a complete revelation", that you may find in the second website of his I have mentioned earlier).
Here is the part of the verse 2185 of the Reading that interests us here, as he has translated it (By the way, he considers shahr to mean both moon and month, but I consider it to mean full moon)
"A moon of ramadan was that in which the Recitation was sent down, as guidance for mankind, and clear evidence of the guidance and the Division Whoso among you witnesses the moon, let him fast in it "
-- The Reading, 2185 (translation by Sam Gerrans)
Page 117, footnote #448 of his book "The Qur'an, a Complete Revelation", Sam Gerrans says regarding this very verse (the commentaries in bold are mine)
The facts as found in the text are
a) The Qur'an was sent down in a particular moon (one called ramadan)
b) If we witness the month (i.e. any month) we are to fast in it (i.e. the month)
The fact is that the text does not say fast during or on or in a month called ramadan.In the footnote #447 of the same page, he explains why he translates that Arabic text by fast in it instead of fast it, but this is not important for the present issue.
As you see here, he considers two different parts, and he basically says that the shahr mentioned in b) is not to be confused with the shahr ramadan mentioned in a). I don't know what to think about that especially considering the use of the connective particle fa at the beginning of the phrase "faman shahida minkum al shahr" ("So whoso among you witnesses the moon"), particle that can mean either then or so (like what we just translated), in which case it will, I think, connect the shahr in b) to the shahr ramadan in a); or this particle can be translated into and ("And whoso among you witnesses the moon"), in which case it does not connect the two shahr together.
Later, in the page 1988, he ads
What month is meant by ramadan is uncertain; the Qur'an does not say to fast during ramadan. It says to fast in a month you witness (i.e. in which you are alive), and the number of days is not given.
Although I prefer to replace month by full moon, I understand what he means and when you think about it, if we were to consider the full moon of scorching heat (in July, if we consider this period to be in July) to be the signal telling us it is time to fast and justify this by saying it is because this particular full moon is a commemoration of laylatou-l qadr, during which was revealed the Reading, I would then tell you that this explanation does not add up after all, the full moons don't appear at the same time each year. That means that we will never know at what precise date was the full moon of scorching heat. That being said, how could we commemorate it ?
We can think of a birthday to illustrate this the birthday takes place the same day each year, so it can be properly commemorated as a fixed event.
It is not the case of the revelation of the Qur'an even if it is a fixed event in time, we cannot commemorate it properly because all we know is that it was revealed on the night of a full moon, and the full moon is not a fixed event for instance, a full moon will appears the 19th of July this year, and the 9th of July next year.I don't know if I made myself clear here and I am sorry if I didn't, sometimes I fail to properly translate my feelings and understanding of an issue ^^
Bottom line, keeping in our head Sam Gerrans' understanding, do you think the Qur'an actually says we should fast a few days (let's say 3) each time we witness the full moon during the year, or should we only fast one time a year, in the supposed window during which was revealed the Reading ?
I must admit that I tend to see more benefits for the one fasting a few days during each and every full moon he witnesses, rather than fasting 3 or 10 days a year. But then again, my priority here is to look for what the Qur'an says, not for what I would like it to say.
Peace
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peace,
To my knowledge "fa" is a resumptive particle, i.e. it connects two statements together
http//corpus.quran.com/documentation/particlefa.jspAlthough you may well be able to find a usage in Quran that suggests (clearly?) it is being used as "and" but would be minority usage.
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Well, even if it had nothing to do with ramadan, in my opinion everyone who's healthy should fast.
And when I speak of fasting I mean for a whole month, not 3 to 10 days.30 days straight in a row, 18 hours of no eating 6 hours for eating.
The intake during these 6 hours should be healthy. No cola/fanta or candy. Instead make sure to intake your fats/proteins/calories.
In my opinion subjective theories should be dismissed when talking about religion or about science. When one has a thesis one should try
to test this very thesis and be open-minded when coming to a conclusion. The Quran after all does order us to inform ourselves and choose only the best of options.Intermittent fasting is actually being researched and is a current topic in science/medicine.
just search on scholar google for intermittent fasting and inform yourselves about the benefits, after all this is a task given to all of us. We are blessed with the opportunity to inform ourselves in a way that no other generation has EVER had, and yet we don't confront this knowledge even though it interests us. I'm not saying that this is an easy thing to do, you may end up spending hundreds of hours and still not come to a conclusion, however that's all the more reason to do so.I personally came to the conclusions that fasting results in better insulin levels, higher levels of human growth hormone, better hearth health, prevention against cancer, longevity, and health of brain (alzheimer prevention).
These however, are my personal conclusions.Note that when reading scholarly work, depending on the field, different types of terminology may be required, however I see no reasons as in to why one shouldn't be able to read some introductory work into the fields one is interested about.
Lots of love. peace
Let's delve into the realm of knowledge all together. -
Peace everyone !
@Wakas
I agree about the particle fa, yet could it be used here as a particle of cause rather than a resumption particle ?
And even apart from this particle, the two statements a) and b) can be unrelated when it comes to the term shahr, don't you think ?
What I mean here is it is possible that the it in the command "let him fast in it" relates to shahr (i.e. any shahr) of statement b), and not shahr ramadan of statement a).
What do you think ?@Study
I agree that anyone healthy should fast. I consider it as a good way to strengthen one's will, so that he or she may free herself from the worldly desires and learn to control them, rather than the other way around.
As for the duration of fast, I do not agree with the whole month statement because I see shahr as meaning full moon indeed, putting aside the benefits of fasting, when it comes to the verse 2185, I fail to see how one could witness a month ? On the other hand, witnessing the full moon is rather an easy thing to do.Peace
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Peace everyone !
@Wakas
I agree about the particle fa, yet could it be used here as a particle of cause rather than a resumption particle ?
And even apart from this particle, the two statements a) and b) can be unrelated when it comes to the term shahr, don't you think ?
What I mean here is it is possible that the it in the command "let him fast in it" relates to shahr (i.e. any shahr) of statement b), and not shahr ramadan of statement a).
What do you think ?Even if it was interpreted as a cause/consequential particle, it still links back to what was said previously and connects the statements before and after. As I said, anything else would be a minority usage (assuming we can find some clear examples of the alleged minority usage in Quran).
As a side note, it says "so/then whoever witnesses the shahr".
Based on the evidence presented so far, SG's interpretation is not the strongest.
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Peace Wakas and everyone else,
As a side note, it says "so/then whoever witnesses the shahr".
Based on the evidence presented so far, SG's interpretation is not the strongest.
And I agree with you, I myself am not really convinced, but here are the points that still bug me (I am sorry I insist, I don't mean to be a pain in the neck about this)
- The ramadan time frame issue (?)
I don't really know if it is an issue in itself, maybe is my reasoning totally wrong here, but what do you think about what I said earlier
If we were to consider the full moon of scorching heat (in July, if we consider this period to be in July) to be the signal telling us it is time to fast and justify this by saying it is because this particular full moon is a commemoration of laylatou-l qadr, during which was sent down the Reading, I would then tell you that this explanation does not add up after all, the full moons don't appear at the same time each year. That means that we will never know at what precise date was the full moon of scorching heat of the period of the Revelation. That being said, how could we commemorate it properly (as a fixed event) today ?
We can think of a birthday to illustrate this
• The birthday takes place the same day each year, so it can be properly commemorated as a fixed event because we know the EXACT DATE of said-event.
• It is not the case of the revelation of the Qur'an even if it is a fixed (and past) event in time, we cannot commemorate it properly because all we know is that it was revealed on the night of a full moon during a period of scorching heat (unless you consider shahr ramadan to mean the red full moon, but even then, it does not change the reasoning because...) The full moon is not a fixed event for instance, a full moon will appears the 19th of July this year, and the 9th of July next year.
- The fa particle and the al particle
It is a fact that verse 2185 says " so/then whoever witnesses the shahr ".
It is also a fact that, usually, the expression "the+object" refers to a known and specific object because of the definite article "the", which is even more true if said-expression was, like it is the case here, preceded by a particle like fa, that will connect this object to an object mentioned in a previous statement (and usually, it will be the same object). Usually.Let's take an example with, so to speak, the same form as the verse 2185
"The forum of free-minds.org is that in which the Reading is discussed. So whoever among you sign up at the forum, let him participate in it".It is crystal clear here that "the forum" in the sentence "So whoever among you sign up to the forum " is a reference to "the forum of free-minds.org" of the first sentence.
However, I don't know why, something niggles at me about this verse. As strange as it can seems (and it was already the case before I read Sam Gerrans' work), I can see the two sentences "A full moon of scorching heat was that in which the Reading was sent down " and "So whoever among you witnesses the full moon, let him fast in it " as "stand-alone" statements, despite the "So" of the second statement that could just implies, to me, that the fast has to take place during the same celestial event (the full moon) than the one that happened during the Revelation of the Reading, but not necessarily at the same period, which is ramadan (and here, we go back to the first issue I raised earlier, namely, 1) The ramadan time-frame issue).
The particle al in al shahr ("the full moon" is, to me, a normal expression when it comes to the full moon don't we usually say, for example, "look ! the full moon !" or "Did you see the full moon ?" rather than "look! a full moon !" or "Did you see a full moon ?" ? Maybe because the full moon is a known event in itself (more known than the forum of free-minds that I used in a previous example) ?... like here I just said "the full moon is a known event", not "a full moon is a known event", even if the later form is, of course, acceptable. After all, doesn't the Qur'an say "aqimu al-salat" while talking about the salat in general, not a specific salat ? Could it be the same case here, as the salat and the shahr are supposed to be well known things ?
Besides, why hasn't God said "this" instead of "the" if He wanted to mean "the full moon of scorching heat" ("so/then whoever witnesses this shahr" ? Or even "shahr ramadan" instead of "the shahr" (I know, it would be redundant, but still) ? Wouldn't it be clearer then that it refers to the particular "full moon of scorching heat" ? But yet again, even if it is just "the", and it is the case here, to me it does not necessarily means "the" full moon of scorching heat like I explained earlier.
I don't know if I am being clear here with what I am saying, because sometimes I do confuse people when I try to explain something to them (not that it is their fault, but rather mine)...
I am not saying I am right about this interpretation of 2185, maybe am I wrong, but I'd just like to have your opinions (and not just Wakas's or Study's opinions, who I thank very much for trying to help me here, but anybody else who has one (obviously lol)) about the 2 issues I raised in this very post...... Peace ^^
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Peace everyone !
@Wakas
I agree about the particle fa, yet could it be used here as a particle of cause rather than a resumption particle ?
And even apart from this particle, the two statements a) and b) can be unrelated when it comes to the term shahr, don't you think ?
What I mean here is it is possible that the it in the command "let him fast in it" relates to shahr (i.e. any shahr) of statement b), and not shahr ramadan of statement a).
What do you think ?Peace bro,
There is no "IN" in "let him fast in it" which you wrote above.
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Peace to you all and sorry for the late answer,
@mmkhan
I agree, but the translation I gave was from Sam Gerrans, who by the way explains himself, in his book (page 117, footnote #447) why he uses "let him fast in it" rather than "let him fast it". But I am not a linguist and I am not so good in Arabic grammar, so I can't say if what he says is good or not.@Bender
The whole thing does make sense to me, I am just asking if the "common" understanding of this verse on this forum is as solid as it seems ?
To make it simple, I see two "interpretations"• God has revealed the Qur'an during a full moon of scorching heat, and therefore asks us to fast that very moon if we witness it. (How to fast that specific moon, as we don't know when exactly it happened ? And even if we did know, full moons never occur at the same date each year.)
• God has revealed the Qur'an during a full moon of scorching heat, and therefore asks us to fast every full moon we witness.
See, I am not trying to fix anything by force, it is just that the second proposition does make sense to me, but somehow, the first one does too.
The question is, which one is the good one ? -
peace Ezio,
Perhaps I can help a little
And even if we did know, full moons never occur at the same date each year.)
Does it not occurring on the same date in a made-up Gregorian calendar mean that one cannot identify which moon it was?
I haven't studied the Quranic calendar system that much, but let's say al quran was revealed during the 7th full moon of the year - is it possible to identify the 7th full moon of the year? Yes/No.
If no, then you may have a point.
If yes, then abstinence during it (or whatever) is possible.
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Peace Wakas,
I agree with the fact that, following your example, we can, indeed, identify the 7th full moon of the year, each year.
However, and even if we do not use the Gregorian or any existing calendar, we see that, if we count the number of days from the first full moon till the 7th, the count of days will not be the same each year that means that the 7th full moon of the year of the Revelation does not necessarily occur the same day (or night) than the 7th full moon of this year for instance.
Does it make sense ?
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Peace Wakas,
peace,
Yes, but Quran does not say Day X.Well, it does say that shahr ramadhan was the night of the Revelation and unless I am mistaken, the Qur'an was revealed as a book in one single night (shahr ramadhan, a.k.a. here, laylatou l-qadr) so in a way, the Reading does say "day X", more specifically, the day of the Revelation.
Now if you just read the verse 2185 without a priori, and multiple times if need be, maybe you'll understand what I understand, that the full moon mentioned in the second statement can refer to any full moon of the year
"A full moon of scorching heat was that in which the Reading was sent down, as guidance for mankind, and clear evidence of the guidance and the division So Whoever among you witnesses the full moon, let him fast in it "
Peace
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Peace everyone !
I see nobody else seems to have an opinion on this fasting thing.
Anyway, I was looking for something else when I found some ahadith about the fact of fasting 3 days in a row each month.
Keep in mind that I do not give any authority whatsoever to the ahadith corpus but only to the Qur'an, the only hadith that needs to be followed when it comes to islam. However, I consider this to be a "funny fact" pertaining to the very issue of this thread; maybe is it a "vestige" if I may say, of how fasting was truly practised at the times of the revelation...Here are the concerned ahadith (the bold parts are from me)
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Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported My friend (the Messenger of Allah) (PBUH) directed me to observe fast for three days in every month, to perform two Rak`ah (optional) Duha prayer at forenoon and to perform the Witr prayer before going to bed.
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Abud-Darda (May Allah be pleased with him) reported My friend (the Messenger of Allah) (PBUH) directed me to observe Saum (fasting) for three days in every month, to perform two Rak`ah (optional) Duha prayer at forenoon, and to perform the Witr prayer before going to bed.
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Abdullah binAmr bin Al-`As (May Allah be pleased with them) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Observing Saum (fasting) on three days of every month is equivalent to a full month's fasting.''
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Mu
adhah Al-Adawiyah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported I asked `Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her). Did the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) use to observe three days of Saum (fasting) in every month?'' She replied, "Yes.'' I asked, "On which days in the month did he observed fast?'' She replied that he did not mind on which days of the month he observed fast.
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Commentary This Hadith makes it clear that one can observe Saum on any three days of the month, and it is not necessary to fix these days. However, it is more meritorious to observe Saum on 13th, 14th and 15th of each lunar month because the Prophet (PBUH) has so ordained it. He himself also used to take special care of these dates and observe Saum on them, as is evident from the forthcoming Ahadith.
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Abu Dharr (May Allah be pleased with him) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "If you want to observe Saum on three days in a month, then fast on the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth of the (lunar) month.''
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Qatadah bin Milhan (May Allah be pleased with him) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) directed us to observe Saum (fasting) on the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth of the (lunar) month.
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Ibn
Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) reported It was the practice of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to not to omit fast onbright days' whether he was staying at a place or on a journey.
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Commentary "Beed'' is the plural of "Abyad'' which means white. Three days of 13, 14 and 15 of lunar month are called "Al-Ayyam-ul-Beed'' for the reason that their nights are bright because of the moonlight. The moon begins to diminish gradually after these days. In any case, it is evident from the Ahadith mentioned here that observance of Saum on these days is more meritorious but one can do so with benefit on other days also.
Source http//www.muslimguide.se/Prophet_Muhammad/All-Hadith/R_S/vil/hadeeth/riyad/08/chap230.htm
Again, those are ahadith, so not to be taken as God-given commands, but I don't think I need to remind you of that now, do I ? ^^
Peace
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Selam,
does anybody know for sure how many days we should fast? Should we fast whole month? or just a few days?
And what about festival of the sacrifice, is this from Quran?
And what about festival of breaking of the fast, Eid al Fitr? Is this from Quran?
I would really like to know this.
Peace
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Peace,
Selam,
does anybody know for sure how many days we should fast? Should we fast whole month? or just a few days?
I would advise you to look through the other debates and forum threads on this section, and research yourself to come up with your own conclusion. No, I doubt anyone knows "for sure", as everyone has different opinions and conclusions from their research. )
What about the festival of the sacrifice, is this from Quran?
Not sure. Haven't looked into it.
And what about festival of breaking of the fast, Eid al Fitr? Is this from Quran?
Don't believe so. I'm almost 99% sure that "Eid" isn't even mentioned by name.I would really like to know this.
Peace
peace
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Peace,
I would advise you to look through the other debates and forum threads on this section, and research yourself to come up with your own conclusion. No, I doubt anyone knows "for sure", as everyone has different opinions and conclusions from their research. )
Not sure. Haven't looked into it.
Don't believe so. I'm almost 99% sure that "Eid" isn't even mentioned by name.peace
Selam sister,
This is very difficult, i know qadr night is mentioned, i wish someone with a lot of knowledge would come and explain everything. Why Quran only Muslims do not have a scholar to ask such questions? And i am reading many posts, but i am not even sure if ramadan is this month, because some say it is in winter. And there is another tread with 252 pages, so it will take me days to read all of that.
If it is not from Quran The Festivals, where did it come from?
Peace
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Selam sister,
This is very difficult, i know qadr night is mentioned, i wish someone with a lot of knowledge would come and explain everything. Why Quran only Muslims do not have a scholar to ask such questions? And i am reading many posts, but i am not even sure if ramadan is this month, because some say it is in winter. And there is another tread with 252 pages, so it will take me days to read all of that.
If it is not from Quran The Festivals, where did it come from?
Peace
Salaam,
Wishing someone with a lot of knowledge would come along is nice, but if someone here comes and claims that they are a scholar, would you just believe anything they said, blindly? I, personally, don't want to fall into that. I would check and double check their sources of knowledge at least, if they were claiming that they possessed the absolute truth.
We don't have scholars who follow this "ideology" because (1) perhaps they haven't entertained the idea, (2) are too convinced in the authenticity of their hadith scholars and hadith science before them, and (3) it's dangerous for them to be open about it.
Where did the festivals come from? I don't know, cultural tradition? Hadith?
You don't have to read all the posts in a thread. There will always be posts of varying quality within a single thread. You can skim through and still find the information you're looking for, I'm sure. You only have to devote a little bit of time of reading or studying per day, so this doesn't have to be something that you rush through, or something that you find one answer for and then you're done. Take your time learning and don't rush yourself. It's about the journey, not the destination. ) If you are in doubt, just follow tradition. I really doubt following tradition is going to hurt you, because after all you are still upholding God's commandment to fast.
Peace. )
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Fasting is originally done to balance our body, mind helpful for the individual and society. Time and duration depends on the convenience and environment that induces to fast. Astronomical events involving the moon sun and climate helps in deciding the repeating patterns in life of our ancestors.
I do not have much idea about Arabian climate but here in India most festivals has astronomical significance like full moon day of a particular month, even monsoon(seasonal rainfall) decides the festivals which brings goodness along with it, like end of winter, end of the rainy season etc.
Environment plays a major role in life style of people, One of the way people's react to those is fasting. People too should have fasted to ward of certain insects, animals and also hidden mocrobes that forms only in certain environmental conditions or seasons.
