Cave Sleepers - Wondering Something

Anoushirvan

Peace free-minders,

Discussing with some Christian guy on a French forum, he gave me the example of the Seven Sleepers story (narrated in Surah 1 as why Quran cannot have divine origin.
According to him, this story was invented by Jacob of Serugh (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_of_Serugh), bishop of Batnan in 6th century CE in one of his homilies.
Since Quran tells it is a true story while it was actually invented by this bishop, then this proves Quran wasn't God's revelation.

I have made some researches, and I must admit that this guy seems to be right all references to this Sleepers story are later than 6th century.

But I praised God to give me some hints, and I found this

1822 They will say "Three, the fourth is their dog." And they say "Five, the sixth is their dog," guessing at what they do not know. And they say "Seven, and the eighth is their dog." Say "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few." So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.

These sentences are nearly word for word that one of the Mahabharata "The five brothers, with Draupadi forming the sixth, and a dog forming the seventh," see http//sacred-texts.com/hin/m17/m17001.htm

Mahabharata dates back to 7th century BC at least. It is fascinating to think how far Quran is from Mahabharata, while this sentence has been transmitted almost word for word.

You will notice some elements here

Draupadi is the common wife of the five brothers, who are the Pandavas brothers.
Nowhere in Surah 18 it is said that the sleepers were men only.
Six persons in Mahabharata is the only count that the Quran doesn't mention. For all mentionned counts in Surah 18, Quran implies people may be wrong
The Mahabharata story is not exactly the same story as in Surah 18.
But it is said that the Pandavas brothers and Draupadi hide themselves 12 or 13 years in forest and caves to escape the Kauravas.
Pandavas strove for good in God's path.

I am now wondering why Quran points at Mahabharata.
And what is the common point between them ? Was a similar story known to Persians so that it was transmitted to Syriac people then to Arabs ?

imrankhawaja

through quran everything sould be filter,

u need to ponder about the things that match with mahbharta , vedas, kalkey awtar, anywhere there are some thins that match with quran, one need to understand only quran is in its original language and still stands its claims, a big hint is there for universal religions to filter their teaching through quran but people still headless,

question is why, because they didnt have time to read their actual teaching of books instead of listening from forefather and pandits and same with molvees scholoars , priests, pop,

let say in veda, its writter there is no image of God, still then hindus make statues of God,
its written in vedas God is one, eshwar is the one and only being, still they have 33 million gods including monkey god hunuman, there is something wrong with their teachhing .

so advise for all of the people filter your things through final testament quran, before its too late

hawk99

Peace Anoushirvan and welcome to the forum.

This is correct below.

through quran everything sould be filter,
so advise for all of the people filter your things through final testament quran, before its too late

Reason for the Quran

16/63 By Allah, most certainly We sent (messengers) to nations before you, but the Shaitan made their deeds
fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment.

16/64 And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them that about which they
differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

Ex. to the Jews Yes, Jesus is indeed the messiah, To the Christians No, Jesus is not Allah,
to the Christians will you reject Muhammad as the Jews rejected Jesus?

When this scripture came to them from GOD, and even though it agrees with, and confirms what
they have, and even though they used to prophesy its advent when they talked with the disbelievers,
when their own prophecy came to pass, they disbelieved therein. GOD's condemnation thus afflicts
the disbelievers.

Quran The Ultimate Reference

Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures,
and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations,
and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of
you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you
one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given
each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny?all of you?
then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

peace

Timotheus

through quran everything sould be filter,

u need to ponder about the things that match with mahbharta , vedas, kalkey awtar, anywhere there are some thins that match with quran, one need to understand only quran is in its original language and still stands its claims, a big hint is there for universal religions to filter their teaching through quran but people still headless,

question is why, because they didnt have time to read their actual teaching of books instead of listening from forefather and pandits and same with molvees scholoars , priests, pop,

let say in veda, its writter there is no image of God, still then hindus make statues of God,
its written in vedas God is one, eshwar is the one and only being, still they have 33 million gods including monkey god hunuman, there is something wrong with their teachhing .

so advise for all of the people filter your things through final testament quran, before its too late

very good advice, the quran is al-furqan or the criterion, a standard by which we can judge something against. and gods revelation should be the only criterion

sadly though many people 'like cattle, or even further astray' dont want to think for themselves or just have defuct logical comprehension and like to be told what to do by their scholars/preists/religious leaders.

NielsJacob

Peace Anoushirvan

According to him, this story was invented by Jacob of Serugh (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_of_Serugh), bishop of Batnan in 6th century CE in one of his homilies.
Since Quran tells it is a true story while it was actually invented by this bishop, then this proves Quran wasn't God's revelation.

I have made some researches, and I must admit that this guy seems to be right all references to this Sleepers story are later than 6th century.

How do we know that the story should be an invention by the Bishop?

I couldn?t find anything in your two links. The first I couldnt find anything about that story. The second Was about some Hindu religion I think..

God bless

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.

You say, quote

I have made some researches, and I must admit that this guy seems to be right all references to this Sleepers story are later than 6th century.

We cannot comment unless you provide us with this work/story that you checked., so that we will also have a look and scrutinise/analyse this work?

Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Peace NielsJacob,

Peace Anoushirvan
How do we know that the story should be an invention by the Bishop?

I couldn?t find anything in your two links. The first I couldnt find anything about that story. The second Was about some Hindu religion I think..

God bless

I didn't say at all the links I gave explain the story is an invention of the bishop.

I said that to my knowledge there is no written record of that story prior to the homily of this bishop Jacob of Serugh.
I couldn't find anything older than than 6th CE. If you are aware of something older than 6th CE, I will be glad to hear of it.

The problem is that Quran says it is a true story, so we have a choice to do

find some prior records of that story or at least a variation of it, so that there is a chance for it to convey some truth.
or, acknowledge that the author of the Quran didn't actually receive divine revelation, at least about the Cave Sleepers. He just recorded that story, believing it was true.

So I was on the verge to acknowledge that that story was indeed an invention of Jacob of Serugh and to choose option 2 above.

But I found this Hindu text (Mahabharata) that changes a lot of things for me.

While the Hindu story is not the same as Serugh's story, the mere fact that Quran reuses one nearly indentical sentence and a story that bears similarities means that there is something important to consider here.

Quran doesn't narrate old tales just for people enjoyment. There is some teaching associated to stories in the Quran.

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.

I get you now.

As far as I am concerned, I see some consistency about the stories of the seven sleepers of Ephesus. And like many other stories in Qoran, you find all sorts of versions going around, from legends to semi factual ,to...

For me, I believe Qoran. I have solid proof that Qoran is the word of GOD. therefore the Qoran version is the true one
.Actually Qoran tells us we do not need other sources, but it also tells we are never satisfied with GOD s version and it challenges us to investigate all possibilities.
I am absolutely certain if the challenge is done right and investigated with honesty, GOD s version will always prove to be the right one.

It is simply my understanding and I trust and believe GOD.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Peace Good Logic,

Peace Anoushirvan.

You say, quote

I have made some researches, and I must admit that this guy seems to be right all references to this Sleepers story are later than 6th century.

We cannot comment unless you provide us with this work/story that you checked., so that we will also have a look and scrutinise/analyse this work?

Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.

You can find some summary here http//czasopisma.upjp2.edu.pl/orientalia/article/download/1011/894
and a translation of Serugh's original homily in appendix.

.Actually Qoran tells us we do not need other sources, but it also tells we are never satisfied with GOD s version and it challenges us to investigate all possibilities.

Quran says we do not need other sources than Quran to establish deen, it does not say not to read other sources. There are some ayats in Quran that tell us to ask people who know if we don't.

I am absolutely certain if the challenge is done right and investigated with honesty, GOD s version will always prove to be the right one.

Yes, and for me it means that I must be ready to get rid of what I used to believe about the story of the Cave Sleepers.

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.

Thank you for your reply and the link.

I also agree that we can read/study/analyse anything we want.
I happen to believe that the truth does not give a different and opposite view/contradicts Qoran, .

What Qoran leaves out can sometimes be interesting to find out about it in other sources

For example it will be nice to find out in detail the true story of the cave sleepers, but what Qoran has is also the truth, even though other details have been left out for a reason.
If anyone claims otherwise ,they will have to come up with clear evidence-Qoran encourages everyone to prove all things/information anyway-.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

hawk99

Peace free-minders,

Discussing with some Christian guy on a French forum, he gave me the example of the Seven Sleepers story (narrated in Surah 1 as why Quran cannot have divine origin.
According to him, this story was invented by Jacob of Serugh (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_of_Serugh), bishop of Batnan in 6th century CE in one of his homilies.
Since Quran tells it is a true story while it was actually invented by this bishop, then this proves Quran wasn't God's revelation.

I have made some researches, and I must admit that this guy seems to be right all references to this Sleepers story are later than 6th century.

Peace Anoushirvan the Christian guy has given you "doubt".
Here is an important ayat for you if you are a believer

4/140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's
communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter
into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will
gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.;

peace

good_logic

Peace All.

What I wanted to say as well was the fact that the story would have not been important until after the cave sleepers woke up. i.e 300 years later than it is expected. So 450 to 550 AD at the earliest?

That is another reason why nothing will be written about it earlier?

GOD bless.
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Peace hawk99,

Peace Anoushirvan the Christian guy has given you "doubt".
Here is an important ayat for you if you are a believer

Actually the biggest doubt to me was given by traditionnal Islam to the point that I have apostatized and rejected Quran for several years.
It is only since some weeks that I can accept Quran again, but with a complete different understanding than Islam, (and also than most of quranists).

And I am not a believer yet. Believer in Quran is a grade. You cannot claim that grade at first place, you have to go step by step.

4/140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's
communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter
into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will
gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.;

True, but the conditions are different nowadays.

First, the so-called "official translation" in French of Quran (King Fahd translation) is really really bad. Most of prejudices of non-Muslims against Quran in France are linked to this bad translation.
So it is fair to tell people that Quran doesn't actually say so and so.

Second, there were recently terrorist plots in France, people fear Quran and what it says. They want to know, they want to be reassured. So it is not wise to escape dialog, even if that dialog is harsh.

Granted, at some point, when people don't want to be convinced, there is no much I can do.

peace

Anoushirvan

Peace good logic

Peace All.

What I wanted to say as well was the fact that the story would have not been important until after the cave sleepers woke up. i.e 300 years later than it is expected. So 450 to 550 AD at the earliest?

That is another reason why nothing will be written about it earlier?

GOD bless.
Peace.

450 to 550 AD at the earliest seems too late for me time for the story to spread, then put into written records...
For different reasons, I believe that sana in Quran does not mean year but month.
So they stayed in the cave 25 years, not 309 years.

And because of the link with Mahabharata, I am convinced that this story never happened under the reign of Decius but is much much older.
It must have happened in Persia something like 3000 or 4000 years ago, then spread to Middle East and India.

imrankhawaja

There was certainly in their stories a lesson for those of understanding. Never was the Qur'an a narration invented, but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things and guidance and mercy for a people who believe. 12, 111

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.

First time I heard this,quote

For different reasons, I believe that sana in Quran does not mean year but month.
So they stayed in the cave 25 years, not 309 years.

Also, I find the story in Qoran different to what you say here

And because of the link with Mahabharata, I am convinced that this story never happened under the reign of Decius but is much much older.
It must have happened in Persia something like 3000 or 4000 years ago, then spread to Middle East and India.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Peace Good Logic

First time I heard this,quote

For different reasons, I believe that sana in Quran does not mean year but month.
So they stayed in the cave 25 years, not 309 years.

You have this ayat

105 He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases; that you may know the number of the years sinina and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

So it says that the moon phases are used to count Sanas, therefore one sana is one lunar month.
Note that they are two plurals of Sana, one is sinin, the other one is sanatun. I am not really able to tell the difference.

Also, I find the story in Qoran different to what you say here

And because of the link with Mahabharata, I am convinced that this story never happened under the reign of Decius but is much much older.
It must have happened in Persia something like 3000 or 4000 years ago, then spread to Middle East and India.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

In the traditional account of the Cave Sleepers story that was narrated by Jacob of Serugh, there is no dog. Christians do not mention dog in their version.
In the Mahabharata story there is a dog, as well as in Quran.

In the Mahabharata story the dog is actually the god Brahma. Far from Quran apparently. Except that there may be a connection between Brahma and Abraham see this http//www.academia.edu/4540206/Brahma_and_Abraham_Divine_Covenants_of_Common_Origin

So this story may well be related to Abraham.

good_logic

peace Anoushirvan.

For me "sinin" in105 could mean to count the "years". What makes it clearer are

1- Beni Israel wondered the desert for " Arbaeen Sanatan".i.e 40 years?

2- When the human reaches " Ashuddahu wa balagha Arbaeena sanatan".i.e 40 years?

In 2 it cannot possibly mean 40 months,otherwise the human will be just over 3 years. Is that "balagha Ashuddahu"?

Some stories in different religions, reassemble each other, but differ in character and details. I tend to believe the Qoran versions.
Simply my understanding and certainty that Qoran ( according to my study/checking) can only be authored by the Lord of the universe.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

http//www.academia.edu/4540206/Brahma_and_Abraham_Divine_Covenants_of_Common_Origin

So this story may well be related to Abraham.

peace

i just read the comaparison between bibal and hindu religious text in that link honestly in some places it even mention celestial bodies as a father of kid, anyway i dnt want to comment on it,

after reading all other books and quran i prefer to rely on quran only, due to the manner that speaks itself , it is the truth from our lord, and these stories of abraham and all saints are suppose to be popular throughout the time of history so during reigns of different generations stories passed and change the shape in to tradition,some parts are true and similar some are fabrication, some characters are real some are ficticious.

but to confirming all these things , there is a final testament, and universal book for everybody that invites everybody to check what it claims.

Hizbullah

Peace good logic

450 to 550 AD at the earliest seems too late for me time for the story to spread, then put into written records...
For different reasons, I believe that sana in Quran does not mean year but month.
So they stayed in the cave 25 years, not 309 years.

And because of the link with Mahabharata, I am convinced that this story never happened under the reign of Decius but is much much older.
It must have happened in Persia something like 3000 or 4000 years ago, then spread to Middle East and India.

I concur with you to a certain extent....The Quran

AQ 1822 - THEY WILL SAY there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and THEY SAY there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and THEY SAY there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, , "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among from anyone."

Study the tenses carefully and you will find that the sentence is in Future / Present Tense. And so the Christian version of this story came from the Syrian bishop, Jacob of Sarugh (c. 450-521), with so much conjectures that they made up in the 6th-century CE! The above Quranic verse proves that this Quran that is in your hands, is not only older than the 6th Century CE but older than the Creed of Nicea! Please see link below....

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607488.0

peace