Do you have an explanation for this? Poll
-
According to Traditional Islamic history (and believed by many students of Quran), revelation of Quran took place over a period of many years (said to be ~23 years), and during most of this time, the believers were allegedly praying inside The Sacred Mosque (at Makkah) towards the cuboid called Kaabah, the sacred/inviolable months and the Hajj were apparently occurring regularly (perhaps yearly), but ALL these things are ONLY mentioned in the last few years of revelation according to traditional ordering of revelation (and independent academic studies of order of revelation), and assigns much significance to them.
WHY - do you have an explanation?
As a side note, if someone knows how Traditional Muslim "scholars" have explained this, please let me know.
-
According to Traditional Islamic history (and believed by many students of Quran), revelation of Quran took place over a period of many years (said to be ~23 years), and during most of this time, the believers were allegedly praying inside The Sacred Mosque (at Makkah) towards the cuboid called Kaabah, the sacred/inviolable months and the Hajj were apparently occurring regularly (perhaps yearly), but ALL these things are ONLY mentioned in the last few years of revelation according to traditional ordering of revelation (and independent academic studies of order of revelation), and assigns much significance to them.
WHY - do you have an explanation?
As a side note, if someone knows how Traditional Muslim "scholars" have explained this, please let me know.
If you coming up with something ,Wakas ,then it should be interesting and it will create an opportunity to gain knowledge .so i am for discussion
-
I like to think that if God is the author of Quran then it would explain the significant issues. To me, this issue seems significant, i.e. no mention of certain subjects (al hajj, al masjid al haram, al bayt al atiq, al kaabah, al masjid al aqsa, al bayt al haram, al ashur al haram etc) until much later in the revelation, and suddenly they seem to have much significance. Few seemed to have noticed this, and even fewer pondered why.
When I studied the subjects mentioned above in Quran I made a very interesting discovery
The first mention of "al masjid al haram" in Quran (according to the traditional order of revelation AND independent academic studies of order)* is in 171. In this verse, nothing special is mentioned about it and it is simply used as a reference point - in my view, for a future prophecy, see here.
The second mention of "al masjid al haram" in Quran (according to the traditional order of revelation AND independent academic studies of order)* is in the famous "change of qiblah" verses 2142-150. Is it a big coincidence that Quran tells us of a change in qiblah/focus, then suddenly all of those things I mentioned previously take centre stage in Quran and become the focus for the believers, leading to triumph (in fulfilment of prophecy)?
Quran seems self-explanatory to me.
Of course, if this finding is true, then this would be a significant discovery.
*please note different studies vary regarding the order of revelation, although most are similar.
-
peace mmkhan,
According to me these are all made up stories. Nothing else.
The question remains.
Even if that is the case, the main point is that these terms (al hajj, al masjid al haram, al bayt al atiq, al kaabah, al masjid al aqsa, al bayt al haram, al ashur al haram etc) are only mentioned in the latter revealed chapters - why?
Unless you hold the view the contents of Quran has always been known to mankind, so "order revelation" does not exist. I have no idea how such a view works, but if that is your view, fair enough, each to their own.
-
According to Traditional Islamic history (and believed by many students of Quran), revelation of Quran took place over a period of many years (said to be ~23 years), and during most of this time, the believers were allegedly praying inside The Sacred Mosque (at Makkah) towards the cuboid called Kaabah, the sacred/inviolable months and the Hajj were apparently occurring regularly (perhaps yearly), but ALL these things are ONLY mentioned in the last few years of revelation according to traditional ordering of revelation (and independent academic studies of order of revelation), and assigns much significance to them.
WHY - do you have an explanation?
Not sure about the bold part however, why I think that these things are only mentioned in the last few years of revelation is because
1 - monotheism and the creed of being a muslim was a bigger priority.
2 - the muslim movement developed further, people upheld practises prior to islam. apparently hajj was implemented pre-islam - read P.E Peters, the hajj page 31-33 about it. so it seems to have islamified.What's your point of change of qibla? that their direction is to these rituals? i'm not sure what you think you have discovered.
-
Quite interesting. Although it's very hard to answer the WHY question.
I am not sure I understand correctly, but are you asking the question assuming the revelation over 23 years and its order is correct?
I'd say the time factors involved in the Quranic revelations does matter in answering and pondering over why those elements come much later and not earlier. I'll explain what I mean.It's important to establish whether(i am speculating of course)
A) The Quran was revealed over a period of years, each snippet relayed to the audience as it came?
Or
B) The Quran was revealed all at once over a small period of time (a month?) written down and was then relayed over many years on a case by case basis? (This theory has its issues, but then it would lend to the Quran being a miracle i.e. the messenger already informed of if else cases - responses and actions, thoughts and accusations on the prophet on the part of the audience before they happened).
Ill admit my knowledge is limited on this matter but these are a couple of things that come to my mind before delving into the WHY question. Your thoughts Wakas?
-
@ wakas
interesting post and excellent finding, its not discovery though , i was researching on the topic of masjid al haram, focal points, all these issues as well as night journey,
you know what , the night journey in 171 may be pointing towards the migration with one of prophets friend abubakar.
Allah knows best,
but night journney is not the topic now, brother wakas trust me i research so much on the topics and the articles in free minds regarding the location of mecca and they totally denied the existence of makkah, but whatever they claimed in articles its alll on ideas and histories , as far i concern the prophet of quran lives in the same makkah and medina that we know today. so i was bit double minded about that issue.
but today i look at your post and what i understand by all this you are trying to say the things mention in last order of quran revelation period which is totally comaptible with the wording of quran as (self explainary)regarding focal length, kabba, rituals of hajj, masjid alharam, and hence makkah is not fake makkah,
yeh i can also think like that when they introduce new qibla it was a test for all the beleivers why beacuse in this way the changing of focal point from jerusalem to mecca was due to a reason ,
interesting actually, and convincing of heart
peace bro.
No doubt, Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) affiliation with the site at Makkah was historic, possibly since childhood (2144 - "...So We shall surely turn you to a direction of devotion / prayer (Arabic Qiblatan) that you will be pleased with...". This site was chosen to become the direction and Holy sanctuary for the new Muslims.
-
Does the Qur'an itself say something about it? Like changing the order of comosition of the Qur'an ith respect to the order in which it was revealed.
Like everybody else I started by accepting without thinking of questioning what has been handed out as the occasion of revelation of somany things. But with time and observing I havee come to have the sense that order of revelation and occasions of revelation are not needed at all and on the other hand are pernicious in the sense that they restrict and put shackles on the Qur'an which in itself is clear enough en things that do concern us now or at any time.
So I really do not care one way or the other. I think the Qur'an we have now can could only be changed for worse. I do not miss it being comosed in the order it was revealed or supposeed to have been revealed.
For instance, we have been told that some ayas of Surat An Nur were revealed because Aixa lost a necklace and so remained behind with a boy to look for it. The Qur'an does not say a word about such a thing, but it does say there was some occasion to to which slander was attached.
However, reading he Qur'an, without having to resort to any particular event, we have a very clear icture of what slander, and particularly slander of women is, how it is produced, the limitless harm it does to the persons ad the socieeties and the we to cut it short. It is way mmore effective that way, because we can identify the may times we hve seene or lived through that kind of thing in whatever capacity. We do not need to be given names or dates to knnow what it is talking about. Wherea giving name an dates divests the quetion of the basic traits of slander and eevel to make a particular question between a and B and c...
Fro a historical poit of viw, of course, I am all for research and finding out as much as possible about anything. Fromthee poit of view of the value of the Qur'an, I really feel I can do perfectly without order of revelation, occasion (beyond what the Qur'an itself states) or place or time.
Salaam
-
I strongly believe that the Book is available since Adam.
May my Sustainer guides us to the truth prI am with you on this. I see the answer in 546-48.
As for hajj, I haven't quite made up my mind on what is the truth about it. I have been looking for more info from other religions. One of the biggest problems is that we neither have the Injeel nor the Torah intact. Even Zoroastrianism went through modification.However, some 5 years ago, I bookmarked a freemason forum in which the admin had a long essay on the comparison between Bermuda and surprisingly, Kaaba. He was talking about some negative energy flowing from Bermuda and then he went onto saying that positive energy flew from Kaaba. I didn't think much of it. My Sunni mind convinced me of feeling proud P I had no idea about its occult significance. I am still not sure fully about what it is because of the conflicting info I received about hajj from Muslims and among them was my grandpa.
However, if we look at the terms like "God's House" it really does not make sense, for God is much bigger than that...he is everywhere.
-
peace all,
SarahY,
If I understand you correctly, it's possible the only somewhat plausible reason Traditionalists could give to explain part of their story is to say that the followers of the messenger of Quran utilised pre-existing practices in order to triumph later on, and in the process modified them from pagan/polytheist to monotheist. For their story however, this still does not adequately explain why all those things are only mentioned in the latter period when all those things allegedly existed for many years without mention and they were allegedly praying in the so-called sacred mosque, towards kaabah etc. This is probably discussed by some Traditionalists somewhere but I haven't came across it.
My point about the change in "qiblah/focus" is that it seems Quran is clearly telling us about a change - all we need to do is connect the dots.Bender,
I believe Quran was revealed over a period of time, as stated by Quran e.g. 2532, 17106, and therefore in some order. This makes perfect sense to me. I have studied the traditional order and independent academic studies of order of revelation, and my own studies, and found they are very similar. They may not be 100% correct, but for a rough guide they are useable.A.W
I hold the view of (A), and I don't see how (B) is workable. The length (e.g. ~23 yrs) or exact order of revelation is not important, as long as one believes it was over some years and therefore in some order - the question remains.Imran,
I am not that interested in the meanings of the words I highlighted in red (although it is important of course), I am asking about why they suddenly gain prominence in the latter revelation period. I am interested in finding a Quran based explanation, and from my studies I think there is one.huruf,
I am primarily interested in making sense of The Quran, ideally with a self-contained explanation, hence the question raised herein. If one believes in an order of revelation, then making sense of that order is very helpful.reel,
It seems mmkhan is referring to kitab/book, not Quran.As I said before, Quran seems pretty self-explanatory to me
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.htmlMy view may complement or conflict with the view you hold - and that's ok. This is a complicated subject and very few have studied it and tried to find an explanation from Quran, so our research is in the early days. I like to make people think, hence the question in this thread.
-
huruf,
I am primarily interested in making sense of The Quran, ideally with a self-contained explanation, hence the question raised herein. If one believes in an order of revelation, then making sense of that order is very helpful.Salaam wakas,
If I were to find a reasonn to have something handed out in a way and then composed some other way, I would say that the purpose would be to attain some goal. May be at agiven time it is easier place some stuff. For instance, if you sell refreshments, it would be self defeating to choose a polar lace in the most severe part of winter.
So with the Qur'an, going back to the An-Nur ayas I mentionned, the fact that some event comes to pass which is in everybody's tongue is very effetive if you want to introduce and make known how peoleshould best behave under such circumstance. But doing it in such a way tht they realise that that isnot a matter of A versus B or C, but rather that that is a kind of situation and behaviour that should be sunned no matter who it is that is involved.
Concerning hajj, qibla and th other questions, right now I am in a kind of limbo. May be because of the present circumstance I can't warm my heart for a hajj to Macca, i fact my heart is may be closer to some American (south more than north) spirituality.
I should study approppriately those questions and the ayas concerning them, but right now my mind is not in that so to all thoseof you who are now working on them I wish all success. May be you will do all the work and I will get all the benefit, hehe.
Salaam
-
Dear All,
If u talk to any aged traditional Quranic scholar ,he will say very firmly,that most of the quran was downloaded on Mohammad during the last six months of his life.Ayat regarding "interest" or in arabic called Riba were also just before His death,On the other hand there are also reports that Quran was editted in the early days of islam.
The first quran written under instructions from Khalifa Abu Bakar, was later given to one of Mohammad's wives,Khalifa Marwan told her to give the quran to Him,She refused,being Prophet;s wife Marwan kept cool,and appointed some soldiers that after Her death Quran should be brought to His Capital city,soldiers did so,when Marwan got the quran he burnt it,to justify the changes made in quran,there was no other quran to tally or compare the new version with old anly first version of quran.there are some some ayats of quran that prove editting,for example,the famous Ayat that said,"Mohammad was not father of any men of you" Now read this ayat 2 or three times,you will realize that this ayat was inserted in quran after the death of Mohammad,further the Arabic word "kana" means "was" for proof see use of this word kana about Prophet Ibrahim, Ibrahim was already dead when quran landed, so quran uses word kana as Ibrahim was,but the close minded translators are still translating kana as "is" but quran proves its meaning are "was".I will feel happy if any one needs a further clarification,thank all.
s
-
According to Traditional Islamic history (and believed by many students of Quran), revelation of Quran took place over a period of many years (said to be ~23 years), and during most of this time, the believers were allegedly praying inside The Sacred Mosque (at Makkah) towards the cuboid called Kaabah, the sacred/inviolable months and the Hajj were apparently occurring regularly (perhaps yearly), but ALL these things are ONLY mentioned in the last few years of revelation according to traditional ordering of revelation (and independent academic studies of order of revelation), and assigns much significance to them.
WHY - do you have an explanation?
As a side note, if someone knows how Traditional Muslim "scholars" have explained this, please let me know.
Seems to me Hizbullah is basing his understanding on disputing/contradicting sources.
Quran 3929
GOD cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners, compared to a man who deals with only one. Are they the same? Praise be to GOD; most of them do not know.Why did you, Wakas, basing your understanding on disputing/contradicting sources. Did you not know that the History of the Traditional Islam including what their so called scholars said are full of conjectures? Did you not know that from the Quranic perspective Islam is much older than the Traditional Islamic sources.
-
Why did you, Wakas, basing your understanding on disputing/contradicting sources.
If you bothered to read the quote of mine you highlighted you would see I never said I believe those things, and used words like "according to", "allegedly".
If you are actually interested in reading my view
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html -
Bender,
I believe Quran was revealed over a period of time, as stated by Quran e.g. 2532, 17106, and therefore in some order. This makes perfect sense to me. I have studied the traditional order and independent academic studies of order of revelation, and my own studies, and found they are very similar. They may not be 100% correct, but for a rough guide they are useable.Hi,
Quite surprising.
I always found it weird that according to the traditional view 1 chapter can have different time of revelation.A couple of examples (source)
Order Sura Name Number Type Note
53 Yusuf 12 Meccan Except 1, 2, 3, 7, from Medina
9 Al-Qasas 28 Meccan Except 52-55 from Medina and 85 from Juhfa at the time of the Hijra
34 Qaaf 50 Meccan Except 38, from Medina -
Peach Wakas,
I believe Quran was revealed over a period of time, as stated by Quran e.g. 2532, 17106, and therefore in some order.
Looking at
17106 And the Quran We have divided, that you might recite it to the people at intervals. And We have revealed it (in) stages.
Here it makes it clear that there were parts (as chapters/sections/subject types? I can't say for sure but nevertheless there were divisions of it as per the verse itself and therefore must have been in some order) yet it does not allude to any time-scale of the revelations themselves - not really.
2532 And said those who disbelieve, "Why not was revealed to him the Quran all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen thereby your heart, and We have recited it (with) recitation.
I interpret this verse to be referring to disbelievers asking why the whole of the Quran was not revealed in one single revelation as opposed to in parts. Again, it does make it very clear that the Quran was revealed in parts/stages but it does not allude to any sort of time scale (short or long).
Then coming to
A.W
I hold the view of (A), and I don't see how (B) is workable. The length (e.g. ~23 yrs) or exact order of revelation is not important, as long as one believes it was over some years and therefore in some order - the question remains.B) The Quran was revealed all at once over a small period of time (a month?) written down and was then relayed over many years on a case by case basis? (This theory has its issues, but then it would lend to the Quran being a miracle i.e. the messenger already informed of if else cases - responses and actions, thoughts and accusations on the prophet on the part of the audience before they happened).
I should have phrased my post properly (all at once over a small period of time̶ i.e. I think the Quran was revealed over a shorter period of time perhaps a season? perhaps a month? I don't know. But the book is not terribly vast as far as quantity is concerned. Nonetheless revealed in a shorter span of time because these verses come to mind
254 And say those who disbelieve, "Not this but a lie, he invented it and helped him at it people other." But verily, they produced an injustice and a lie.
255 And they say, "Tales (of) the former people which he has copied in writing, dictated to him morning and evening."
971 Indeed, We revealed it in (the) Night (of) Power.
2185 Shahru Ramadhaan that was revealed therein the Quran, a Guidance for mankind and clear proofs of Guidance and the Criterion. So whoever witnesses among you the shahra, falyasumhu, and from who is sick or on a journey then from other days. Intends Allah for you ease and not intends for you hardship, so that you complete count and that you magnify Allah for He guided you so that you may (be) grateful.
I suppose it's open to interpretation without any hard evidence. This verse may refer to the revelations merely starting in Shahru Ramadhaan OR that the whole of the Quran was revealed in Shahru Ramadhaan.
So it is possible that the Quran was revealed in a month or a season instead of the traditional period of many years. Add to the fact that in the current compilation, it appears that the Quranic verses every few groups of passages jump from topic to topic, event to event in a lot of it's text which indicates that they are a collection of verses out of their original order or chapter (perhaps they were arranged by topic originally?). Of course I could have it utterly and completely wrong. Why? because the same phenomenon can also explain that revelations came over time on a case by case basis. But it can work either way.
I am open to changing my views, but this is what makes sense to me for now (i.e. we can't say for sure what the time-scale of revelation was). And I agree with you and huruf on the order not being a concern. But I am of the view currently, that the Quranic verses are a collection and not an ordered/indexed book in its current form in the real sense (though of course it has an order and index in its present form). For the sake of history it's entirely plausible that the actual order was very different.
So...regarding the WHY question that is the subject of this topic...still difficult to answer http//www.ds3spirit.com/images/smilies/smileys-mrgreen.gif
-
It is clear that Quran came in stages, but it does not seem to agree with that whole traditional explanation of verses of Surah being revealed here and there.
And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter (sratun) like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.223
The hypocrites fear that a chapter (sratun)will be sent down which will expose what is in their hearts. Say "Mock, for God will bring out what you fear."964
A chapter (sratun)which We have sent down and imposed, and We have sent down in it clear revelations (ytin) that you may remember.241
And those who believe say If only a chapter (sratun)is sent down! But when a firm chapter (sratun) is sent down, and fighting is mentioned in it, you see those who have a disease in their hearts look at you, as if death had already come to them. It thus revealed them.4720
