SJD is the sajda !

parvez_mushtaq

This is my response to Wakas and mmkhan

As per Wiki, The Language is the ability to acquire and use complex systems of communication, particularly the human ability to do so, and a language is any specific example of such a system. The scientific study of language is called linguistics.
We use language to express ourselves through speech or to write. the only media through which we express the pictures we get in our mind is through speech or by writing. In the same way, when we hear or read something we get those pictures in our mind. For example, when we hear the word ?fun?, automatically we get a picture of some beach, party or some hill top with our family or friends .these study of sound- imaging is called semiology
Now let me take the verse 234

And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

The image we get in our mind when we hear the word ?prostration ?or "sajda" is this
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Mosque.jpg
So obviously the meaning of the word is physical prostration without any dispute as we get this picture in our mind

However, these images get confused or linguistically the meaning of sajda gets ambiguous when it comes in the following context

Verse 1204
When Yusuf said to his father, "O my father, indeed I have seen eleven stars and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating to me."

Firstly it was a dream .we don?t get the direct meanings from the dreams . if Yousuf alaisallam dreamed like sun ,the moon and the planets were prostrating in front of him can mean anything .only yousuf alaisalam know how they did .since ALLAH subahnatala has not addressed it to us then we don?t have to bother about that sajda .

Another Verse 2218
Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.

Here also there is a ambiguity for the word ?sajda ?because we don?t get that magical picture in our minds regarding the sajda of non living things

Does Quran answers this, the answer is ?yes?
Verse 17.44
The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts by His praise, but you do not understand their exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.

So we dont have to bother about the sajda of nonliving things because we cannot understand it as it implies form the above verse

Now let me check what a logical fallacy is?
Let me take an example
If it is a cat then it is an animal. Jimmy is an animal so jimmy is a cat
Is the above statement is correct .it is not and this is called logical fallacy

Let me take the view point of Wakas and mmkhan
Since the sajda of nonliving things cannot be the physical sajda so SJD is not physical sajda
Is it not logical fallacy?

So as conclusion the sajda means the sajda which we get in our mind after hearing the word ?sajda? that is the human physical prostration.

Wakas

Unfortunately you seem to confuse one point in my article (the analysis of 124) into meaning that is my whole argument.

In my analysis of 124 I'm simply pointing out another instance in Quran wherein it's not a physical prostration.

In any case I have made it real simple for people who hold the sujud=physical prostration understanding
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html

Bender

Verse 1204
When Yusuf said to his father, "O my father, indeed I have seen eleven stars and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating to me."

Firstly it was a dream .

Salaam,

So? Dream or no dream, he still saw them prostating, so how did that look like?

only yousuf alaisalam know how they did .since ALLAH subahnatala has not addressed it to us then we don?t have to bother about that sajda .

RED I think this is the wrong approach. From stories like Yusuf, Musa, etc we can learn the meaning of the words.

Another Verse 2218
Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.

Here also there is a ambiguity for the word ?sajda ?because we don?t get that magical picture in our minds regarding the sajda of non living things

RED How does a dog, cat, snake, bird, etc do this prostation?

Does Quran answers this, the answer is ?yes?
Verse 17.44
The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts by His praise, but you do not understand their exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.

So we dont have to bother about the sajda of nonliving things because we cannot understand it as it implies form the above verse

tasbih is different from sujood

So as conclusion the sajda means the sajda which we get in our mind after hearing the word ?sajda? that is the human physical prostration.

9619
So you are always physically prostating?

btw also pay attention to "waktarib" does this also mean a physical "come closer"?

parvez_mushtaq

Unfortunately you seem to confuse one point in my article (the analysis of 124) into meaning that is my whole argument.

In my analysis of 124 I'm simply pointing out another instance in Quran wherein it's not a physical prostration.

In any case I have made it real simple for people who hold the sujud=physical prostration understanding
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html

I think i don't have to tell you about logical fallacy ,Wakas
Let me take few of your points
From your summary

Re SJD to/for adam/mankind - 234, 711-12, 1529-32, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3872-76
Issue if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire&#039 could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?

Here your are comparing the human sajda with the things which no one can prove ,that is angels .....The unseen beings ...is it not a logical fallacy ,Wakas

Re 2218, 556 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
1315 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?
Re 1648-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD?

The author is ALLAH subhanvatal .We cannot explore about his secrets .Again you are demanding proofs from the impossible .again a logical fallacy

Re 2724 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
2725 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 2724, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to?

Here the sujud is very clear .it is about the sujud we get in our mind that is physical prostration .now your biasing with sujud of sun and the moon ...again a logical fallacy

I think the remaining points we have already dealt

parvez_mushtaq

Salaam,

So? Dream or no dream, he still saw them prostating, so how did that look like?

................
RED How does a dog, cat, snake, bird, etc do this prostation?

This what they call it False analogy a division of logical fallacy .You are asking about things which cannot be answered .wakas argument is based on false analogy because when we are talking about human sajda we should stick to humans .we cannot expect proofs from the things which no one can prove except ALLAH subhnavtala .note that the author is ALLAH subhanvatala .So we don't have many choices expect to say sammena wa ataana

tasbih is different from sujood

And sujood is a part of tasbhia

9619
So you are always physically prostating?

btw also pay attention to "waktarib" does this also mean a physical "come closer"?

Sujood is not always physical sujood but at the same time it is not always submissive, to honour, to pay respect.(as per Wakas view point) .it is both .
for example .in salah ,for those who could not perform physical sujood then it is enough to make a sign by just bowing their heads which comes under the meaning which Wakas is highlighting .Similarly , if i hear the above verse it is enough to just make a sign but when i read Quran or i am reading it in my salah, which are the acts of getting nearness to ALLAH subhanavatal ,then physical sujood it must

Bender

This what they call it False analogy a division of logical fallacy .You are asking about things which cannot be answered .wakas argument is based on false analogy because when we are talking about human sajda we should stick to humans .we cannot expect proofs from the things which no one can prove except ALLAH subhnavtala .note that the author is ALLAH subhanvatala .So we don't have many choices expect to say sammena wa ataana

RED From claims that do not exists comes questions which can not be answered.
BLUE I did not read Wakas argument.
And why should we stick to humans? This word sajda is used for humans and for non-humans, so to fully understand it's meaning we have to take ALL verses into examination. If we stick to humans or birds or whatever then we will almost for sure get a wrong interpretation of the word as can be witnessed here in this thread.
GREEN nope It's the word of a messenger of Allah.

And sujood is a part of tasbhia

No this is simply not true, at least not per quran.

Sujood is not always physical sujood but at the same time it is not always submissive, to honour, to pay respect.(as per Wakas view point) .it is both .
for example .in salah ,for those who could not perform physical sujood then it is enough to make a sign by just bowing their heads which comes under the meaning which Wakas is highlighting .Similarly , if i hear the above verse it is enough to just make a sign but when i read Quran or i am reading it in my salah, which are the acts of getting nearness to ALLAH subhanavatal ,then physical sujood it must

RED Allah is more powerful then you think. He knows when I am in sujood without any ritual.
BLUE nope nearness to Allah can only be reached by surrendering yourself to Him. Yourself is not your body but the one who lives in that body.

parvez_mushtaq

GREEN nope It's the word of a messenger of Allah.

you must be having proof for your claim ,Ben .Can you prove it

BLUE I did not read Wakas argument.

Read it , its a beautiful argument

RED From claims that do not exists comes questions which can not be answered.
....
And why should we stick to humans? This word sajda is used for humans and for non-humans, so to fully understand it's meaning we have to take ALL verses into examination. If we stick to humans or birds or whatever then we will almost for sure get a wrong interpretation of the word as can be witnessed here in this thread.

From my point of view ,unless you prove to me ,beyond any doubt ,that Quran is not the word of ALLAH subhanvatal , Quran is the word of ALLAH subahnavtal and our prophet was the mouth piece .So ,if Quran claims inanimate and other living things also does sujud then we don't have to bother about the sujud of other things for the simplest reason is that we "don't know" and we cannot figure out their sujud
Let me give you another similar verse
Verse 2441
Do you not see that Allah is exalted by whomever is within the heavens and the earth and the birds with wings spread ? Each has known his prayer and exalting , and Allah is Knowing of what they do.

No this is simply not true, at least not per quran.

BTW ,i glorify ALLAH subhnavtala in my sujud

RED Allah is more powerful then you think.

Let me put this way ,We cannot even think how much powerful ALLAH subhnavtala is .He is beyond the limitations of thinking

He knows when I am in sujood without any ritual.
BLUE nope nearness to Allah can only be reached by surrendering yourself to Him. Yourself is not your body but the one who lives in that body.

The only difference between you and me is that ,you have surrendered to him inwardly and i have surrendered to him inwardly as well as outwardly .I am for him ,both physically and mentally
in other words
Verse 6.162
Say, "Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah, Lord of the worlds.

Bender

you must be having proof for your claim ,Ben .Can you prove it

The book starts with Bismi Allahi, that is already enough proof.

Read it , its a beautiful argument

Wakas wrote a lot, can you give me a link please.

From my point of view ,unless you prove to me ,beyond any doubt ,that Quran is not the word of ALLAH subhanvatal, Quran is the word of ALLAH subahnavtal and our prophet was the mouth piece .

What has this to do with the what we are discussing?

So ,if Quran claims inanimate and other living things also does sujud then we don't have to bother about the sujud of other things for the simplest reason is that we "don't know" and we cannot figure out their sujud
Let me give you another similar verse
Verse 2441
Do you not see that Allah is exalted by whomever is within the heavens and the earth and the birds with wings spread ? Each has known his prayer and exalting , and Allah is Knowing of what they do.

But we like to know the meaning of the word, and to know the meaning of the word we have to examine ALL occurrences.

BTW ,i glorify ALLAH subhnavtala in my sujud Let me put this way ,We cannot even think how much powerful ALLAH subhnavtala is .He is beyond the limitations of thinking The only difference between you and me is that ,you have surrendered to him inwardly and i have surrendered to him inwardly as well as outwardly .I am for him ,both physically and mentally
in other words
Verse 6.162
Say, "Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah, Lord of the worlds.

RED What about a jew who is praying at the Western Wall with his rituals?

parvez_mushtaq

Sorry Ben .i was bit busy in ramadan
Taqabbal Allaahu minna wa minkum
http//66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcg77zyT1b1rcpca6o1_1280.png

The book starts with Bismi Allahi, that is already enough proof.

it is clear cut example for revelation .he was thought to say so .you will come up only with few such verses but for me almost the entire Quran is the proof

Wakas wrote a lot, can you give me a link please.

It is unfortunate that you did not read my OP or at least you did not followed the links that i have posted there
anyway ,here is the link
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

What has this to do with the what we are discussing?

But we like to know the meaning of the word, and to know the meaning of the word we have to examine ALL occurrences.

If it is from human like us ,then we would have knew about the sajda of all other things ,since Quran is from ALLAH subhanavtala , we have limitations in our imagination .we cannot imagine how inanimate and other living things will do sajda

RED What about a jew who is praying at the Western Wall with his rituals?

How could i know .rituals are physical submission and intentions are the inward.only ALLAH subhanavatal knew about the intentions

Bender

Sorry Ben .i was bit busy in ramadan

Sorry not accepted Parv

I don't care, you can not go away like this, very unquranic!
whats the matter with you? whats the matter with you?
I saw De Niro doing this 2 times thing and when he does that he means business so you are warned!!!

I will not respond to you for at least 4 weeks, so that you can feel what I have been through.

parvez_mushtaq

Sorry not accepted Parv

Wow ,Very angry .even i used to feel like the way

I don't care, you can not go away like this, very unquranic!

I understand ,it is very unQuranic
I am here only because of these ayahs and nothing else .
Verse 7175 And recite to them, , the news of him to whom we gave Our signs, but he detached himself from them; so Satan pursued him, and he became of the deviators.
Verse 7176 And if We had willed, we could have elevated him thereby, but he adhered to the earth and followed his own desire. So his example is like that of the dog if you chase him, he pants, or if you leave him, he pants. That is the example of the people who denied Our signs. So relate the stories that perhaps they will give thought.

sometimes i feel very hard to give time for these things. what to do this is not my bread and butter .Insha ALLAH, i hope one day it will became my bread and butter .

whats the matter with you? whats the matter with you?

My first priority in ramadan is completing Quran within 30 days .the bliss i get after completing Quran within 25 or 26 days is like i am getting the man of the match award in a match which my team has won .Have you ever chased hafiz in taraweeh .it is very thrilling to chase him ,some times overtaking him and sometimes lacking behind with him in Quran (juz) in taraweeh and rolling tears in few verses ,wow it is very emotional,Ben .you should try the physical submission ,Ben .believe me it helps more in making my intentions pure only for ALLAH subhanavatal

I saw De Niro doing this 2 times thing and when he does that he means business so you are warned!!!

i have checked his filmography ,Ben ,he was very much active and he never got absconded like me

I will not respond to you for at least 4 weeks, so that you can feel what I have been through.

Oh come on Ben, it is like shah rukh khan telling " baada baada deshon mein aise choti choti se kahl ti ya hoti rehti hai"
i know how you might have felt ,i understand and i assure you i will not repeat this

imrankhawaja

ok guys come to the topic now,

i have question from the people who do research on sajda, physical prostration.

as far i know this physical prostration is in the nations from ages the start of this thing happened early before the modern civilisation,

even though we are also doing in our salat to make our mind understand this is submission, is it really submission.. is it practise introduce by God .. to hunanity.if it was the practise of God then why the people on earth who claim to be God want to get physcial prostrations from public,? these are important questions not to be ignored..

so what if all mslims are on the same path to represent physical prostration copy cat like previous nations and infact it was not there at all,

real thing is obviously innside , if the truth is inside , action not required to make God happy, he is God and he is telling us i know your secrets so if somebody really loves God from inside and already submitted his will to god from inside and God is aware about it its done from the side of beleiver...

what he need to do he /she just need to spend his/her life in righteous way .

the logic of physical prostration may be pleased kings or pharohs but true God is high above whatever anything can associate with him,

human God dnt know that people who are doing sajda to them if they get a chance they will surely kill that king who making them humilate,
but in the case of God if our innerself is inclined towards commandments with truly heart then i think our job is already done..

pervaiz and bender both what you guys view bout it...

parvez_mushtaq

.......................

even though we are also doing in our salat to make our mind understand this is submission, is it really submission.. is it practise introduce by God .. to hunanity.if it was the practise of God then why the people on earth who claim to be God want to get physcial prostrations from public,? these are important questions not to be ignored..

You mean to say that their claim of being god is correct and you have problem only with prostrate .

so what if all mslims are on the same path to represent physical prostration copy cat like previous nations and infact it was not there at all,

You mean to say Muslim are the only monotheist in the world .if so , what about the people before Quran

imrankhawaja

the difference between the real creator and the kings of world is huge...

i m also confused about the sajda after reading wakas article.. becoz he got some nice points to ponder.

and i think the real sajda/humble/prostrate should be from inside. the body is a garment. real self is a actual character..

but anyway i m still doing sajda in my contact prayer but i think i will revise it soon after studying more , from his article i m convinced God dnt need outer thing, he need to serve him from truthful heart. the "niyaat" again whether somebody do sajda or not do it if real self is submitted to God . then duty accomplished i think...

i still think the act of sajda is human invention... about the sajda in contact prayer is there is any thing from sources which make us clear any prophet did physical sajda in their contact prayers..

peace

Timotheus

the difference between the real creator and the kings of world is huge...

i m also confused about the sajda after reading wakas article.. becoz he got some nice points to ponder.

and i think the real sajda/humble/prostrate should be from inside. the body is a garment. real self is a actual character..

but anyway i m still doing sajda in my contact prayer but i think i will revise it soon after studying more , from his article i m convinced God dnt need outer thing, he need to serve him from truthful heart. the "niyaat" again whether somebody do sajda or not do it if real self is submitted to God . then duty accomplished i think...

i still think the act of sajda is human invention... about the sajda in contact prayer is there is any thing from sources which make us clear any prophet did physical sajda in their contact prayers..

peace

Peace,

what about ruku`? the two are closely tied together in descriptions of those who seek God, i think that we should kneel/bow down before god, and to prostrate to him, but both theese concepts should start or be in the heart, the physical act is just that. there are plenty of physical symbols in this world, but they just represent the deeper concept, i think that human beings are helped by physical symbols of concepts like this though, i think that is the reason for things like ablution, sujuud etc, they are just actions, what realy matters is what is in ther heart, but often, as humans that physical connection to something helps us to focus on it, or to feel it better, etc.

Peace.

imrankhawaja

Peace,

what about ruku`? the two are closely tied together in descriptions of those who seek God, i think that we should kneel/bow down before god, and to prostrate to him, but both theese concepts should start or be in the heart, the physical act is just that. there are plenty of physical symbols in this world, but they just represent the deeper concept, i think that human beings are helped by physical symbols of concepts like this though, i think that is the reason for things like ablution, sujuud etc, they are just actions, what realy matters is what is in ther heart, but often, as humans that physical connection to something helps us to focus on it, or to feel it better, etc.

Peace.

peace

i m also researching on this prostration thing from last two months before that i honestly never look in to this particular issue,

but what make me think something is wrong in physical prostration becoz i just watch some ancient movies culture including pharoh and all those powerful kings who used to get physical prostrate from their people. and its kind a humilation for other perosn to do it, but they were helpless so they do it.. otheriwse their life is on risk..

but a real lord really dnt need body acts to represent his glory he is already great, whether we say it one time hundred times or million times , or whetehr we prostrate physically, or spirtually... does it really matter...

what matter is loyalty, and interesting thing regarding the matter of faith is God knows very well who is devoting him whole heartly. and truly..

as far we are honest with our lord , we are clear...

worldy kings may need physical prostration as a proof of submission and we know what happen to them , after wards..

case of moses repeated so much in quran ,, and pharaoh was unable to accept the truth why he listen to the slave . due to arrogance he wronged himself , whether he was very clear God is one ...he uses to make his slaves prostrate him and moses revised this thing , the clear defeats with magicians and on other occassions make him more transgress..instead of paying heed

moreover in the end he claim i beleive in the lord of moses,
but God replied too late now, when there was a time you was one of the wicked...? it dosent mean God is not merciful , its mean God knows he is just bluffing ... once a arrogant always a arrogant

peace.

hanslan

as far i know this physical prostration is in the nations from ages the start of this thing happened early before the modern civilisation,

Somehow I feel the old way is to show worship not submission. The Lord did not create humans for the purpose of worship, that is for the 'muqarrabin' created for worship. Humans were created to be servants, to serve the purpose of creation as been taught in the Quran.

Timotheus

peace

i m also researching on this prostration thing from last two months before that i honestly never look in to this particular issue,

but what make me think something is wrong in physical prostration becoz i just watch some ancient movies culture including pharoh and all those powerful kings who used to get physical prostrate from their people. and its kind a humilation for other perosn to do it, but they were helpless so they do it.. otheriwse their life is on risk..

but a real lord really dnt need body acts to represent his glory he is already great, whether we say it one time hundred times or million times , or whetehr we prostrate physically, or spirtually... does it really matter...

what matter is loyalty, and interesting thing regarding the matter of faith is God knows very well who is devoting him whole heartly. and truly..

as far we are honest with our lord , we are clear...

worldy kings may need physical prostration as a proof of submission and we know what happen to them , after wards..

case of moses repeated so much in quran ,, and pharaoh was unable to accept the truth why he listen to the slave . due to arrogance he wronged himself , whether he was very clear God is one ...he uses to make his slaves prostrate him and moses revised this thing , the clear defeats with magicians and on other occassions make him more transgress..instead of paying heed

moreover in the end he claim i beleive in the lord of moses,
but God replied too late now, when there was a time you was one of the wicked...? it dosent mean God is not merciful , its mean God knows he is just bluffing ... once a arrogant always a arrogant

peace.

Peace be with you, and Gods mercy,

God does not need us, that much is clear

"
and its kind a humilation for other perosn to do it, but they were helpless so they do it.. otheriwse their life is on risk..
"

not much difference here, it is humbling for a person to do it, hence why we should, and we are helpless our life is at risk if we dont!

peace be with you

truthseeker11

Peace Imran,

The infinite Creator is present wherever you turn (2115), so in which direction will you physically prostrate? When you physically prostrate in a specific direction, does that mean the infinite Creator is not behind you? Because while you are physically prostrating in a certain direction, you are showing your behind to the infinite Creator in the other direction. Wouldn't that be extremely rude?

2115 And to allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the presence of allah. Allah is infinite, knowledgeable.

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west,.........................

Peace

Timotheus

Peace Imran,

The infinite Creator is present wherever you turn (2115), so in which direction will you physically prostrate? When you physically prostrate in a specific direction, does that mean the infinite Creator is not behind you? Because while you are physically prostrating in a certain direction, you are showing your behind to the infinite Creator in the other direction. Wouldn't that be extremely rude?

2115 And to allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the presence of allah. Allah is infinite, knowledgeable.

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west,.........................

Peace

Exactly.

in any direction, it does not matter, as long as you humble yourself to your Lord

Peace be with you, and Gods mercy