About Ex-Muslims
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Peace Anoushirvan.
What I say, what you say ,what Islamophobics say,what anyone else say will never change what Qoran says,regardless of who interprets the verses ,Qoran agrees with the following1.Maximum freedom for the people - freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom to travel, and freedom of economy (2256, 1099, 8821-22).
2.Guaranteed human rights for all the people, regardless of their race, colour, creed, social status, financial situation, or political affiliation (58, 4913).
3.Prosperity for all the people. God's economic system is based on constant circulation of wealth, no usury, and productive investment. Non-productive economy such as gambling, lottery, and high interest loans are not permitted (2275-7, 597).
4.Social justice for all. Because of the obligatory charity , no one will go hungry or un-sheltered (2215, 7024-25, 1071-7).
5.A political system that is based on unanimous consensus. Through mutual consultation and freedom of expression, one side of any given issue convinces all participants in the discussion. The end result is a unanimous agreement, not the opinion of a 51% majority rammed down the throat of the 49% minority (423.
6.A society that upholds and maintains the highest standards of moral behaviour. There will be a strong family, no alcoholism, no illicit drugs, no illegitimate pregnancies, no abortions, and practically no divorce.
7.Maximum regard for people's lives and properties. Therefore, there will be no crime against the people's lives or properties.8.Prevalence of love, courtesy, peace, and mutual respect among the people, and between believers and other world communities (3110, 608-9).
9.Environmental protection is guaranteed through conservation and prohibition of wasteful practices (3041).
Those who pick and choose verses to suit their agenda are not going to change what Qoran really says when every word is given the value it deserves.
Qoran does not need defending and will withstand all the criticism thrown at it from all walks of life and generations.
GO on study it and find out, do not rely on hearsay .
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace Anoushirvan,
And Islam is really a violent religion, not only because of djihad, contrary to people here tend to think. It is violent because of the burden it imposes on society even in daily life, like rituals, social gaze forcing people e.g. to fast, very strong sexual morals, prohibition to change religion, corporal punishments...
With respect to those reasons, I am not so convinced that a Quran-alone society would really make people free, and I suspect that most ex-Muslims are not convinced either.
Huh. Interesting. I don't think the "rituals" mentioned in Qur'an, if they are at all, are mandatory. I wouldn't think at all that in a Qur'anic society, that anyone would be forced to fast or participate in a traditional prayer ritual. Lowering one's gaze is also subjective to the situation I think. But perhaps this is a discussion for another topic.
Quranists tend to believe that rejection of Islam is just because of hadiths that lead to a wrong understanding of Quran. But this is not so true. Islam rejectors I have talked to are so because of what is written in Quran, and they often quote quranic verses, not hadiths.
And when quranists say that violent verses in Quran are only for self-defense, those islamophobes say that these verses have never been interpreted in that sense by Muslims since 1400 years and that it is only when Muslims became dominated by Western countries that they have tried to make that point.
I believe that most Muslims or even Quranists tend to naive or blind on the reasons why some Muslims turn Islamophobic. Their reaction is a bit like this one we are perfect, our Book is perfect and if you disagree, it is only because you didn't understand that we or our Book are perfect, since you are not perfect yourselves. yuck
I agree with you that people will and do leave Islam because of what Qur'an says, whether it's true or not. We've had such members on this forum before; and they've made posts about it.
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Actually salat is quite mandatory according to the sectarian interpretation of Quran, at least to avoid the alleged Hellfire. It seems worth killing for in the beginning of chapter 9 as you are told to kill idolators until they observe salat and zakat.
And the above is not an exaggeration, just plain realistically, at least as the sectarian versions goes (it is not the correct one and no hellfire nor rituals exist).
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Anoushirvan.
What I say, what you say ,what Islamophobics say,what anyone else say will never change what Qoran says,regardless of who interprets the verses ,Qoran agrees with the following1.Maximum freedom for the people - freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom to travel, and freedom of economy (2256, 1099, 8821-22).
2.Guaranteed human rights for all the people, regardless of their race, colour, creed, social status, financial situation, or political affiliation (58, 4913).
3.Prosperity for all the people. God's economic system is based on constant circulation of wealth, no usury, and productive investment. Non-productive economy such as gambling, lottery, and high interest loans are not permitted (2275-7, 597).
4.Social justice for all. Because of the obligatory charity , no one will go hungry or un-sheltered (2215, 7024-25, 1071-7).
5.A political system that is based on unanimous consensus. Through mutual consultation and freedom of expression, one side of any given issue convinces all participants in the discussion. The end result is a unanimous agreement, not the opinion of a 51% majority rammed down the throat of the 49% minority (423.
6.A society that upholds and maintains the highest standards of moral behaviour. There will be a strong family, no alcoholism, no illicit drugs, no illegitimate pregnancies, no abortions, and practically no divorce.
7.Maximum regard for people's lives and properties. Therefore, there will be no crime against the people's lives or properties.8.Prevalence of love, courtesy, peace, and mutual respect among the people, and between believers and other world communities (3110, 608-9).
9.Environmental protection is guaranteed through conservation and prohibition of wasteful practices (3041).
Those who pick and choose verses to suit their agenda are not going to change what Qoran really says when every word is given the value it deserves.
Qoran does not need defending and will withstand all the criticism thrown at it from all walks of life and generations.
GO on study it and find out, do not rely on hearsay .
GOD bless you.
PeaceGreat post bro, but Tina is too attractive.
I would say sometimes it is good to let go of people for protection purpose. -
Peace Anoushirvan.
What I say, what you say ,what Islamophobics say,what anyone else say will never change what Qoran says,regardless of who interprets the verses ,Qoran agrees with the followingPeace Good Logic,
Most of the measures you advocate below as coming from Qur'an are not going to lead to a better society.
Plus they are based on fairly traditional interpretation of Qur'an one can disagree with.1.Maximum freedom for the people - freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom to travel, and freedom of economy (2256, 1099, 8821-22).
2.Guaranteed human rights for all the people, regardless of their race, colour, creed, social status, financial situation, or political affiliation (58, 4913).
OK.
3.Prosperity for all the people. God's economic system is based on constant circulation of wealth, no usury, and productive investment. Non-productive economy such as gambling, lottery, and high interest loans are not permitted (2275-7, 597).
Sounds utopia. Loan at interest is necessary for any successfull economic system. Islamic finance advocating no interest is actually only loan at interest in disguise.
4.Social justice for all. Because of the obligatory charity , no one will go hungry or un-sheltered (2215, 7024-25, 1071-7).
Obligatory charity is no charity at all. It is either racket or tax (well, actually tax is a bit legal racket).
And how would it work with religious freedom ?
You have two choices
a) Other religions and atheists are not subject to this tax, then you create a kind of advantage towards them. It would be financially advantageous to not believe.
b) Other religions are subject to this tax, then you have recreated jizya as in Islam.5.A political system that is based on unanimous consensus. Through mutual consultation and freedom of expression, one side of any given issue convinces all participants in the discussion. The end result is a unanimous agreement, not the opinion of a 51% majority rammed down the throat of the 49% minority (423.
Consensus is a very very bad thing. It is actually the major engine of traditional Islam. It leads truth to compromise with falsehood.
Please take a moment to ponder the story of the Samiri in Qur'an that actually denounces consensus.6.A society that upholds and maintains the highest standards of moral behaviour. There will be a strong family, no alcoholism, no illicit drugs, no illegitimate pregnancies, no abortions, and practically no divorce.
Exactly the kind of moral heaviness on sex and marriage that prevents current muslim societies to move forward.
7.Maximum regard for people's lives and properties. Therefore, there will be no crime against the people's lives or properties.
8.Prevalence of love, courtesy, peace, and mutual respect among the people, and between believers and other world communities (3110, 608-9).
9.Environmental protection is guaranteed through conservation and prohibition of wasteful practices (3041).
Maybe. People are very quick to make promises to God, without realizing that God will put them under test (fitna).
Then, principles and foundations of the new society that have defined in haste, in a consensus mixing truth with falsehood will reveal their true nature.Those who pick and choose verses to suit their agenda are not going to change what Qoran really says when every word is given the value it deserves.
Qoran does not need defending and will withstand all the criticism thrown at it from all walks of life and generations.What is the added value of Qur'an over the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) ?
If none, then why keep Qur'an ?And is using Qur'an going to put some restrictions on the way to enforce UDHR, like current muslim countries do ? If yes, then islamophobic ex-Muslims have still a point in their criticism of Qur'an.
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Peace Anoushirvan.
As it happens I do not agree with the views of Traditional Islam.
You misunderstand me, for example you say ,QuoteSounds utopia. Loan at interest is necessary for any successfull economic system. Islamic finance advocating no interest is actually only loan at interest in disguise.
I have clearly said "High interest" i.e loan sharks!! I did not say no interest.
It seems to me we are reading two different Qoran. Mine does not have issues or contradictions. It is also simple , clear and carries a solid proof it is from the Lord of the universe.
I suppose you are entitled to your views also,and so are others.
I am only stating my opinion , the way I understand the Qoran I am studying.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
As a side note
We see what we want to see. Someone who has decided quran is bad and wrong, will not accept even an interpretation that otherwise would have been accepted.
I know people who say quran advocates cutting of hands of thieves. When they are told that it mean cutting of means, then they don't accept this. Or when they are told drb women is same as leave the women, then they don't accept that. The reason is that in their minds (due to emotional reasons), quran can by definition never be correct, even when sensible interpretations are given that in other contexts would be viewed favorably. Such people will insist that the worst interpretation is the accurate one, even though they still don't believe it is from God (so what does accurate really mean here?). As usual, emotions are at the bottom of this kind of reasoning malfunction.
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As a side note
We see what we want to see. Someone who has decided quran is bad and wrong, will not accept even an interpretation that otherwise would have been accepted.
I know people who say quran advocates cutting of hands of thieves. When they are told that it mean cutting of means, then they don't accept this. Or when they are told drb women is same as leave the women, then they don't accept that. The reason is that in their minds (due to emotional reasons), quran can by definition never be correct, even when sensible interpretations are given that in other contexts would be viewed favorably. Such people will insist that the worst interpretation is the accurate one, even though they still don't believe it is from God (so what does accurate really mean here?). As usual, emotions are at the bottom of this kind of reasoning malfunction.
You are dead right.
Salaam
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As a side note
We see what we want to see. Someone who has decided quran is bad and wrong, will not accept even an interpretation that otherwise would have been accepted.
I know people who say quran advocates cutting of hands of thieves. When they are told that it mean cutting of means, then they don't accept this. Or when they are told drb women is same as leave the women, then they don't accept that. The reason is that in their minds (due to emotional reasons), quran can by definition never be correct, even when sensible interpretations are given that in other contexts would be viewed favorably. Such people will insist that the worst interpretation is the accurate one, even though they still don't believe it is from God (so what does accurate really mean here?). As usual, emotions are at the bottom of this kind of reasoning malfunction.
i remeber this verse for the people who already decided to reject the truth...
2440 Or like the darkness out in a deep ocean in the midst of violent waves, with waves upon waves and dark clouds. Darkness upon darkness, if he brings out his own hand, he could barely see it. And for whoever God does not make a light, he will have no light.