What is the true Victory?
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Dear Imran can't you see the state of commotion? It didn't get established in one day. Objective is to dispel it with the truth not intimidation, force, threats or fatawas of apostasy.
lol my dear brother I did not threat you or declare any fatwa. its between you and God make sure what you are doing with the message of God its a act of something which is very serious ,,, you are on other words try to correct God , or try to correct Arabic or try to tell us the Arabic message of that time was infact what you are interpreting in English.. I have no idea..
it would be helpful for me if you tell me a little bit background(from the era of the reciver of quran) of all that work before sharing the revised versions,,, so that I easily understand it all..
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u make me remind of mr shabbir translations ,, he also have a style like this but his method was easy to understand and although message he interpreted in the form of explainations but it barely contradict with original meanings... but your message is bit hard to understand...
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Yes I read your signature.
What is it that you find gibberish? Be objective so we can have rationale discussion for mutual learning.
Dont take my subjective word for it. Read your translation to 5 different people (ideally ones not familiar with your translations) then ask them what are some of the main messages of this work? do you regard this work as clear?
For every variance or negative answer or confused response you get, give $10 to charity. Let us know how much money you end up donating, then we'll talk some more.
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Surah 110 1
Wakas used the word gibberish for this rendition
Whenever, ideology of one who doesn?t worship shall transpire as the conqueror. Let us see it.
Then it shall help in comprehending the state of commotion. Therefore, they shall enter in multitudes into customs and habits of one who doesn?t worship.
Surah 110 3
Then go to and fro, accomplishing the merit and value of your foundation (Rabb); as well seeking it as a covering. Indeed, this is how deep remorse and regret is always expressed.
To which word in the earlier sentence "it" is referent?
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I also did not get " THE ONE WHO DOSENT WORSHIP"
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Surah 110 1
Wakas used the word gibberish for this rendition
Whenever, ideology of one who doesn?t worship shall transpire as the conqueror. Let us see it.
Then it shall help in comprehending the state of commotion. Therefore, they shall enter in multitudes into customs and habits of one who doesn?t worship.
Surah 110 3
Then go to and fro, accomplishing the merit and value of your foundation (Rabb); as well seeking it as a covering. Indeed, this is how deep remorse and regret is always expressed.
To which word in the earlier sentence "it" is referent?
Mazhar, "it" doesn't need to refer to a single word, it can as a pronoun refer to a concept already introduced to listeners. Here, it is referring to a concept of ideology of one who doesn't worship, in previous verse. This concept once widespread and understood well, shall help multitude of people to comprehend that concept of deity/deities for worship and concept of worship itself are the eternal causes for the state of commotion in humans.
Just think about it and look at realities of today and you shall find out that this claim is a fact and reality.
Imran you are not understanding it, because you have either not read following at all, or not read with care.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599853.0
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peace.
Prehaps it is some problem with my logic, but i fail to understand what your translations are talking about. i actualy had to read the arabic to be able to understand it.
God says he made the Quran clear, and this seems to be anything but clear.
I would seriously consider what you are doing with the quran, as God does not approve of people distorting his words.. i am not saying you are, God knows and i do not, but that is what it seems like to me. i find it very hard to follow.
Peace
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peace.
Prehaps it is some problem with my logic, but i fail to understand what your translations are talking about. i actualy had to read the arabic to be able to understand it.
God says he made the Quran clear, and this seems to be anything but clear.
I would seriously consider what you are doing with the quran, as God does not approve of people distorting his words.. i am not saying you are, God knows and i do not, but that is what it seems like to me. i find it very hard to follow.
Peace
Timotheus, which god you are talking about. The one who might have created the text of Quran, or the one who translated its text some 250 years after its supposed advent? One who created the text is saying there is no deity for worship and we shouldn't be worshiping at all.
Just ask yourself do you really know and understand that Arabic text yourself first hand with intermediaries of translation? Certainly, your answer is going to a resounding NO. Then pound what are you doing and what shall you be doing?
Regards,
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Timotheus, which god you are talking about. The one who might have created the text of Quran, or the one who translated its text some 250 years after its supposed advent? One who created the text is saying there is no deity for worship and we shouldn't be worshiping at all.
Just ask yourself do you really know and understand that Arabic text yourself first hand with intermediaries of translation? Certainly, your answer is going to a resounding NO. Then pound what are you doing and what shall you be doing?
Regards,
Peace
I believe in the One who revealed the Quran, who promised to protect it from corruption, the One who says..la ilaha ila hu
No object of worship EXCEPT HIMi know enough arabic to know this, and more, so please dont presume to know anything about me, when in fact, you do not i learned this WITHOUT anyone elses help except Gods, how? because..
al-rahman Alam-al-quran
The Most Gracious, taught the Quran"Just ask yourself do you really know and understand that Arabic text yourself first hand with intermediaries of translation? "
So.. you want me to make you my intermediary???
No thanks.God is sufficient for me.
for you are your deeds and for me are mine.Peace
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Did I ask you to follow me?
If you think you already know enough Arabic, you likely know nothing and will never know anything. However, if you are sincere about learning it. Keep striving on and you would know the truth one day.
Regards,
Peace,
now you are distorting my words!!!i said this
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la ilaha ila hu
No object of worship EXCEPT HIMi know enough arabic to know this, and more
"anyway, i do not desire to argue with you, i simply wished to remind you, prehaps the reminder would benefit.
I choose to place my trust in God, and he is sufficient to gaurd his revelation.. one point of note.."whether arabic or non arabic it is, for those who believe, a guidance and a mercy"
Language is irrilevent. God guides whomever he wills, and leaves to stray whomever he wills
May God guide us all. Peace
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@ bkanwar , if you revised the chapter 112 how you will revise it.. I just want to know the idealogy behind the understanding you have..
peace
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@ bkanwar , if you revised the chapter 112 how you will revise it.. I just want to know the idealogy behind the understanding you have..
peace
Imran, hope you realize there is a difference between the meanings of words ideology and methodology? Did you mean my methodology? I have no ideology of my own. I am just a student of the text of Quran.
Regards,
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Imran, hope you realize there is a difference between the meanings of words ideology and methodology? Did you mean my methodology? I have no ideology of my own. I am just a student of the text of Quran.
Regards,
actually I wanted to know is there is something wrong with other translations or their meanings are different from what you learn from text.. what I understand you just interpreting in hard way .. or using some substitute words sometimes it works sometime it cause confusion may be I still did not get .. just let me know what is it then it will be easy for me to understand ..
peace
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Peace,
brother i do appologize, as my conduct yesterday, was less than what God expects of us as believers. and i do hope my lord will forgive me.i was quite confronting and rude, and the way i went about it was not ok.
what i was trying to say is that, I find it quite hard to follow your translation. Prehaps i am missing context, and you could, god willing, explain somewhat the context of some concepts i dont understand?
Peace
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If you do really consider me your brother. Then there is no need for apology, brothers don't apologizes. They love each other.
I by no means claim to know all Quran. I am trying to understand. I know with reasonable certainty that Allah means "one who doesn't engage in worship", based upon understanding the spellings. Which is the only method to understand any text.
This understanding not only nullifies entire religion Islam, but also all other religions of the world.
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If you do really consider me your brother. Then there is no need for apology, brothers don't apologizes. They love each other.
I by no means claim to know all Quran. I am trying to understand. I know with reasonable certainty that Allah means "one who doesn't engage in worship", based upon understanding the spellings. Which is the only method to understand any text.
This understanding not only nullifies entire religion Islam, but also all other religions of the world.
Peace, do you have supporting evidence for this view, or could point me in the direction of it? also i am curious how it nullifies the entire religions of the world? as It seems logical that God does not worship, as worship itself is something which only his creation does.. in my understanding. Unless you are proposing that al-llah is an entirely different concept than 'God', i am also curious how you fit this view in with the quran, and its context of God, with all his descriptions and attributes, and the concept of 'la ilaha ila allah'
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Please read the following. Once you have done this, we can discuss further if you have questions.
I am making few corrections in this write up based upon my discussion with an inquisitive soul. He kept asking me repeated questions. This led me to re-look my write up again. Now with increased understanding of the language. I have spotted few issues that I overlooked previously.
Main point of correction is word ?illah? or in Arabic script . This component of Allah can?t be as if it was the case this would add one more ?Alif? to spelling and hence making the linguistic analysis flawed. The word here is a verb from same three letter root. This means ?He worshiped or adored?.
Now let us substitute this word and its meanings in rest of the write up.
We are lead through, with a careful linguistic analysis, to a conclusion that the word from Al-Qu'ran is not the proper noun (name) of our Rabb. It actually stands for allathe = he who, La = not and finally, . This would mean ?He who doesn?t do Alah?.
If one were to incorporate the real meanings of the word ?alah? into the translation; this word which actually is a sentence would mean ?He who doesn?t at all worship or adore?.
This sounds so radically different. Who am I to say this? What are my credentials?
Why should we trust this non-sense?
These are all defensive of held belief, so valid and legitimate questions.
Let us instead of worrying about the credentials of the informer of this information; just explore the language of the Qur'an that is presented from the Qur'an itself.
First of all let us analyze what traditionalists interpret this word to be?
And why they are wrong?
Traditionally, the word is thought to be a combination of a definite article Al = in English ?The? and illah , meaning ?God? but in reality ?a deity for adoration and worship?.
Although, in actuality this "Al" here is a contraction of the word and legitimately could be written as "Al" . Can we trust this assertion despite clear references from the Lexicon of Lane 1 and Grammar of William Wright 2.
Let us turn to Qur'an itself for more evidence. In Arabic script as well in the Qur'an, where a preposition ?Lee? is added in to a word beginning with a definite article ?Al? . Alif is dropped and so Lam of the definite article ?Al? joins with ?Lam? of preposition. Let us illustrate this point with some word examples from Qur'an itself.
- 21 Alif of ?Al? gone, lam is present and preposition ?Lee? added.
2.. 47 and 432, is the word same concept.
However, for the word when the same preposition is added. We find that the ?Lam? of the supposed definite article ?Al? also disappears. However, following the examples above it should have been written as (in reality one cannot type this so called word using an Arabic type writer).
Example, 12 and 115 more places 222, 298 and on and on, in total 116 occurrences.
Whereas, allathi being a different word its whole contraction disappears. This also proves that this word by no means is a proper name as there is no definite article "Al". As if there would have been an "Al", it should look like this in script and not
Furthermore, although both Lane and Wright cite the contraction of as . Can we find an example in the current translation of Quran for such a contraction? Of course, we can, not one time, but multiple times.677
Yousuf Ali When he saw the moon rising in splendor, he said "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said "unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."
799
Yousuf Ali Did they then feel secure against the plan of Allah?- but no one can feel secure from the Plan of Allah, except those (doomed) to ruin!
Other examples are at 62 different places, 526, 25, 567. Any place word is used, it is at most places translated in meaning of "allathi".
Let us, continue to analyses this word further. In the middle there is "alif" like mark (highlighted in red) with a Shadda mark and another alif above . In newer, print version the "alif" above Shadda is taken a fatha shape instead of 'alif" like in this example as well. The ?alif? above Shadda, is called a ?dagger alif? and is written over many other words instead being included in these words in the text of Quran. Since here it is written over Shadda, implying there are two ?alifs?.
Shadda has several uses in script. We will only discuss the relevant ones here. One use is to indicate the doubling of a consonant. It is also used to indicate such a doubling only to facilitate pronunciation in the ?Sun letters of the Arabic alphabets?. This would be an apparently plausible defensive case for the traditionalist.
Let us analysis why it is wrong? If it were to be correctly understood, then there would be no reason to keep this Shadda in place once the ?Al?, if it were really ?Al? of definite article. As in the phrase is gone , as in the example above of . However, we find in the Qur'an that this is not the case. Hence, this Shadda is not due to ?Al? of a definite article coming before the word to make it a proper noun, but contraction of allathi. Although, even if it were to be the case, as illah has already ?alif? at the start which is not considered a ?Sun letter?. Hence no Shadda would be have been added as cited above.
Let us, further show in Arabic script, how this concept could be explained? First, all three words are written separately, then allathi written as contracted and finally two sequential, Alifs 4+5 can be combined and written as one. However, these combined alifs are written above Shadda. This make two remaining ?Lams? 3+6 sequential and hence could be combined and are written as one below Shadda, to make apparently one looking word Allah.
= Let us do a consonant count, of words on left side of equation see if it matches with word on right side of equation.
Right side, Alif 1 + Lam 2 + Lam 3 + Alif 4 + Alif 5 + Lam 6 + Ha 7. There are total of 7 consonants on right side.
Left side, Alif 1 + Lam 2 + (in the middle due to Shadda there should be 4 consonants, two below two ?dager Alifs above it). If one were to pay attention to red consonants in right side of equation. Two lams 3 +6 are below Shadda and two Alifs 4+5 are written above Shadda), 7 Ha is written at the end combined with two ?Lam? combined together in the middle and below Shadda, to formThis clearly, further shows that the persistence of this Shadda is due, not to the Shadda of ?Al?; but in reality it indicates a real doubling of the consonants.
This means inescapably, that one was to follow the order of pronunciation of, this word. It actually is a sequence of words, a phrase, not just a word. Allathe (written as a contraction in script as "Al", La and alah. This would further imply that the middle Shadda is suggesting ?two lams? and two alifs?.
Hence, if translated word for word, this word or more accurately sentence would mean ?He who doesn?t at all worship or adore?.
- Lexicon of Arabic Language; Edward W Lane; 1968, Vol. 1, page 74.
- A Grammar of the Arabic Language; William Wright. Revised 3RD Edition, Dover Edition 2005 Vol. 1 page 269 D.
