alcohol
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Peace,
no worries, it is just that calling salat prayer leads to misconceptions.. although we all make mistakes, i myself almost everything i do contains some mistake i am made aware of..
I am just saying that 'consuming alcahol' does not mean one cannot do salat. i.e my brother drinks this cheap horribly sweet wine, and on occasion, i have a mouthfull to soothe a sore throat, because its so horribly sweet, and because it is alcaholic, it is very sooting on the throat.
On the other hand, it is up to the individual to detirmine how they wish to follow Gods commands. as i mentioned earlier in a post, i have gotten to the point where i do not even like having 1 beer, so now i just avoid it, although a taste, as with the above case, i do enjoy on occasion.
We have to look at the original text to get a better definition (443)
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O you, those who have trusted, do not go near the connection while you are intoxicated untill you know what you are saying....
my own understanding, note i translate amanu as trust, not believe and salat as connection not prayer, as i think this most accurately reflects the words, in my understanding
It also seems, perfect example of the former, i have maken a mistake, i was under the opinion that intoxicated was of the root k f r but i was obviously wrong it is s k r.
in that case, it does seem to mean drunken, and not 'mind covered over' as i had previously thought, alhamdullilah
i have also been avoiding salat when i have not been able to focus properly, such as if extreamly tired, although, they say that it is the equivalent of being drunk. it seems my choice to translate all the quran i post myself instead of relying upon others is paying off, alhamdullilah, i will have to reconsider what else i may have inccorrect now.
in this case, it does seem to clearly mean drunk.
i think the key point is 'untill you know what you are saying', so if you know what you are saying.. as in truely can focus on your words, then it is ok.
although again, there are other points in the quran on alcahol, which leads me to wish to avoid it unless for uses such as i mentioned earlier. but this is my own choice.
Thank you for the explanation Timotheus.
I have highlighted some of the points you've raised.
What I am gathering from your point of view is the following- You're translating 443 as not approaching salat while drunk
- You're also pointing out that salat should not be performed until you don't know what you're saying, which can be as a result of being drunk or any other case (e.g being very tired and being able to focus)
-If I understand this correctly, for you intoxication and being drunk are two different things right, where the former means like having one beer and being able to know what you're saying during salat and the latter means drinking su much that you don't know what you're saying.
if they key point is until you know what you're saying and you can focus on your words then would you agree that it is ok for my friend to have 6 glasses of beer and then perform salat?
I have been out several times with him and he told me that he has built tolerance against alcohol, indeed I've noticed him drunk only twice and he had around 12 glasses of beer; however I never noticed him having any trouble focusing while having 6-7 glasses of beer.
NOTE I can understand that he might have had drinks with a very low percentage of alcohol and therefore 6 glasses of beer might be the equivalent of one glass of beer you're having(although I doubt it as I know he had shots of tequila and vodka,which I've told are strong) but my point here is that is it ok for a person to keep drinking, because they have built a tolerance, as long as they can focus on their words?
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Peace,
just follow what God
Thank you for the explanation Timotheus.
I have highlighted some of the points you've raised.
What I am gathering from your point of view is the following- You're translating 443 as not approaching salat while drunk
- You're also pointing out that salat should not be performed until you don't know what you're saying, which can be as a result of being drunk or any other case (e.g being very tired and being able to focus)
-If I understand this correctly, for you intoxication and being drunk are two different things right, where the former means like having one beer and being able to know what you're saying during salat and the latter means drinking su much that you don't know what you're saying.
if they key point is until you know what you're saying and you can focus on your words then would you agree that it is ok for my friend to have 6 glasses of beer and then perform salat?
I have been out several times with him and he told me that he has built tolerance against alcohol, indeed I've noticed him drunk only twice and he had around 12 glasses of beer; however I never noticed him having any trouble focusing while having 6-7 glasses of beer.
NOTE I can understand that he might have had drinks with a very low percentage of alcohol and therefore 6 glasses of beer might be the equivalent of one glass of beer you're having(although I doubt it as I know he had shots of tequila and vodka,which I've told are strong) but my point here is that is it ok for a person to keep drinking, because they have built a tolerance, as long as they can focus on their words?
Peace,
Drunk is what the dictionary says for that word.
'do not approach salat while drunk untill you know what you are saying' is my honest effort at translating.intoxication means having excess toxins in your body
drunk means being under the influence of alcahol, to the point where you have side effects.neither of theese words are in the quran, they are english words.
Personaly i would not approach salat if i dont know what i am saying or cannot focus properly under any circumstances. or else its just in vain.
however, i do not make the law, i just do my best to follow it. dont follow me, or my interpretation, follow God alone. research for yourself. if you cannot understand arabic then learn it, and ask God for guidance, because otherwise you are following human beings, and the quran tells us not to follow after that which we have no knowledge of. dont follow me, or anyone else, lest you be mislead.
regardless if its half a dozen or a dozen or two dozen, its obviously an excessive amount, and to me, in my understanding, is a clear sin. I do my best to advocate righteousness, so if you want my opinion, dont drink at all, dont go out, stay at home and study the quran! or go out serving your lord, not following the footsteps of satan, and consuming that which is tanted with his work. prehaps you may recieve mercy.
If you want Gods guidance, and his commandment, if you are a truster in him, then follow what he has revealed, follow his guidance, purify yourself and do righteousness, believe in him and his revelations, that you may recieve mercy, strive in his cause with the striving due to him. seek the hereafter, not the pleasures of this world.
In saying that God did not forbid alcahol. he did not forbid pleasure, but first and foremost, seek his pleasure, prehaps there will be a reward in there hereafter.
Peace
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Peace,
The only thing I am following is your logic so I can get a better understanding on how you're reasoning, I can assure you that this conversation it's not about following someone or finding a justification to drink as I don't drink anyway.
I was just pointing out what you said, which I find it to be contradictory in my opinion
if you can approach salat as long as you can focus and know what you're saying, therefore if having one glass of beer is ok and not a sin, so should be having 6 glasses of beer and the following statement is null
regardless if its half a dozen or a dozen or two dozen, its obviously an excessive amount, and to me, in my understanding, is a clear sin.
because that might be an excess for you but not for the person who's tolerant to half a dozer,dozer or two dozer, who is still capable of focusing, know what he's saying under those circumstances.
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Peace,
The only thing I am following is your logic so I can get a better understanding on how you're reasoning, I can assure you that this conversation it's not about following someone or finding a justification to drink as I don't drink anyway.
I was just pointing out what you said, which I find it to be contradictory in my opinion
if you can approach salat as long as you can focus and know what you're saying, therefore if having one glass of beer is ok and not a sin, so should be having 6 glasses of beer and the following statement is null
because that might be an excess for you but not for the person who's tolerant to half a dozer,dozer or two dozer, who is still capable of focusing, know what he's saying under those circumstances.
Peace,
for each to their own, i do not desire to be a part of such a pointless vain argument. do what you will, so will I.
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I am saddened to see such a childish reaction. At no point my my comments were intended to be offensive and at no point I've asked you to change your mind or do as I am.
I guess, any argument that goes against your way of thinking is pointless.
Have a good day.
Peace
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I am saddened to see such a childish reaction. At no point my my comments were intended to be offensive and at no point I've asked you to change your mind or do as I am.
I guess, any argument that goes against your way of thinking is pointless.
Have a good day.
Peace
Peace
I already told you not to follow me! i am a human being. follow God.
I am not going to debate on how many drinks is enough or too much or tolerable. it is vanity
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2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering Godand from the Salat. Will you be deterred?
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tainted by the work of the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
more harm than benefit, causing strife, repeling from remembering God and salat, and tainted by the devil
seems like a loosing deal to me..
Peace
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Sometimes we (human beings) engage in debates for the purpose of being convinced. It's a bit like playing devil's advocate. I'm not saying this is what happened in this thread, but it happens every now and then.
Cheers
the clans of devil see you from where you cannot see them,,
he use the same old trick due to which our ansestors once pay a price... and we have a burden of this body due to which we do everything ,, sometimes take a wrong way for fullfulling the need of body,, we are still in illusion , the real self is inside the body..
and alcohal also affect the real self when our conscience is unable to judge between right and wrong...
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The translation of 443 you propose is weak. You ignore a conjunction but change it for "while". It says "...wa antum..." It should be "...and if you are..." The 'wa' in the phrase is strongly indicating conjunction there, new clause.
The true story is that the whole passage needs revision.
Be well
Amenuel -
The translation of 443 you propose is weak. You ignore a conjunction but change it for "while". It says "...wa antum..." It should be "...and if you are..." The 'wa' in the phrase is strongly indicating conjunction there, new clause.
The true story is that the whole passage needs revision.
Be well
AmenuelPeace,
the whole quran more likely. much of it anyway.
are you refering to my interpretations?
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When the subject relates to to alcohol, sex, drugs, gambling, polygamy, wealth, basically all the world's enjoyments the forum becomes alive! a common theme here folks, we love to enjoy our lives soooooo much. And then problem starts, ppl tend to impose laws, boundaries thus creating factions, first the faction is small then it becomes a sect just because ideas and perceptions differ from one another - clearly this is inconsistent with quranic teachings.
The Quran is a personal guidance from the Lord of all things. We can share knowledge but never impose on another one's own beliefs or understanding. If one were to imposed inferred rules and own understanding rather than clear ones in the Quran it is just repeating the mistakes referred to in Al-Baqarah.
Nobody can save another person, no preaching is required as the Lord says "Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe - 26".
Wisdom and knowledge comes from the Lord if one follows the inherent guide within the Quran. Even if we share knowledge, it is likely that we choose opinions that are closer to ours, rarely do we become objective in our search for truth - again knowledge and wisdom comes from the Lord not with age or the amount of reading and research done.
Thus for true knowledge to come to us, we must keep true to the guide inherent in the Quran, and be mindful of every statements therein - that is why the commandment is to read and write, there is no preaching but sharing of information and in creating man made laws for mankind in general the sharing of information leads to discussion to draw out the wisdom from our Lord.
For example the Quran gave a criterion to evidence zina calling for witnesses seeing the actual act of fornication. What should the man made laws be? Unfortunately some lawmakers have resorted to creating a peeping squad to provide the required witnesses - so everywhere this squad goes they are on the lookout for sex acts that they can punish.
Thus for alcohol, the ban on alcohol is so widespread, sunni muslims can't even tell that alcohol in perfumes are ok. Maybe too much alcohol in perfumes will lead one to lose his mind and commits murder....could happen.
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/ - is a good site without the unnecessary preaching
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The translation of 443 you propose is weak. You ignore a conjunction but change it for "while". It says "...wa antum..." It should be "...and if you are..." The 'wa' in the phrase is strongly indicating conjunction there, new clause.
The true story is that the whole passage needs revision.
Be well
AmenuelPeace,
prehaps you would remember that everything has a context, i see that you are a great fan of taking words out of their context and distorting them, but prehaps you should look in the quran what God has to say about that. though surely unless you are sincere you will be blind to it anyway. You cant take words that suit you, and reject the rest which does not.
this from haywoods arabic grammer pg 437
'wa' between two sentances, of which the second is a nominal sentance, often means 'while', such a sentance introduced by wa is called a 'jumlah halyah', 'sentance of condition, e.g .(arabic). 'Zaid stood while he wept' also with a change of subject, e.g .(arabic.) 'Zaid went away and Amr remained'
The wa is usualy dropped, when a verbal Hal sentance follows....
the wa of Hal (waw-ul-Haal) is sometimes used before a nominal senatce which has no participle or inperfect.... eg. 'zaid came and in his hand is a sword'......
I have no idea if this applies here, it seems to, but i dont make much effort to follow grammar books.. why? because..
551-4,
some of my favourite ayah, and some of the first God taught me, literaly and figuratively.He taught the quran.
not arabic grammar, ourselves, or anyone elsePeace.
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He taught the quran.
not arabic grammar, ourselves, or anyone elseSorry for being philosophical, but...
what does that mean? Of course I understand that all teachings and insights are due to the grace, mercy and laws of God, but...
how do we get to know what the quran says if we don't use those media that you mentioned... grammar, ourselves, anyone else?Cheers
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he taught quran means, he taught everything to understand quran..
peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
732 Say "Who has made unlawful the nice things that God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make strong drink and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.
4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of intoxicants that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Sorry for being philosophical, but...
what does that mean? Of course I understand that all teachings and insights are due to the grace, mercy and laws of God, but...
how do we get to know what the quran says if we don't use those media that you mentioned... grammar, ourselves, anyone else?Cheers
THE GRACIOUS
HE taught the qur'an
HE created the human beings
HE taught him the 'bayaan'
so then when we have recited it, then follow its recitation
then indeed upon US is its 'bayaan'
I put my trust in GOD, as he says 'HE taught him the 'bayaan' , 'indeed upon US is its 'bayaan' , i credit him with all the true knowledge i have attained, and any guidance i may have. GOD is the one who explains the quran, to those who he chooses to guide.
What is the quran anyway?
It is signs in the hearts of those established in knowledgeand 'arabic or not arabic, for those who trust firmly it is a guidace and a mercy'
language is no barrier. language is universal anyway, even animals recognize the words of GOD when they hear them. and many of them seem to have more understanding than many humans.
bayaan
explanation/distinguishing/clarification/proving/manifest proofs= Ba-Ya-Nun =
Becoming separated, severed, disunited, cut off or distinct
Apparent, manifest, plain, clear, known, distinguished from another
Disunion and union
Coming forth
Separation or division between two things (e.g. land)
An evidence, an indication, demonstration, proof, argument that is clear, manifest (intellectual or perceptive/perceived by sense), testimony of a witness
how does a child learn?
how else could one be guided to understand the quran? clearly we see so many people who know so much of the quran yet fail to understand anything of it. or who read it and are completely blind to the message....
how was the quran learnt by prophet muhammad?
bismillahi-r-raHmani-r-raHeem
Iqra bismi rabbik aladthee khalaq.
khalaq al-insana minalaq. Iqra, wa rabbuka al-'akram. aladtheealama bil-qalam
alama l-insana ma lam ya`alamRead! in the name of your LORD who created
HE created the human being from an clinging clot
Read! and your LORD is THE GENEROUS
HE who taught with the pen
HE taught the human being what he did not know
Peace be upon you.
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ponnder the word taught with pen,
read and write and there are always rules of correct and incorrect in everything..