Anger, Wrath, Revenge, and God

LastDay3

Now.. do you think it's wise for one to torture somebody for all eternity just because he or she doesn't like your book or wrote a bad review about your book?
or think that the story that you wrote were merely fiction and fantasy?

Salaam/Peace Jafar,

AL-LAH does not torture anybody;
because here, this is HIS Most Fair & Most Equitable Judgment

======================
160- Whoever comes with a good deed, he/she will receive ten times its worth;
and whoever comes with a sin, he/she will only be recompensed its like; they will not be wronged.

6/160

So, only if someone tortures or burns someone else,
and does never want to repent and reform himself/herself, thereafter,
he/she will have to taste the torture he/she himself/herself committed here (=85/4-10 & 40/17, 40).

Therefore, if someone reads AL-LAH's Scripture
and witnesses all such Most Superb and Matchless MIRACLES
which clearly and unmistakably proves that this is absolutely Not a fiction or fantasy, at all,
here

http//www.19covenant19.com/Forum.html

but he/she still doesn't like HIS Scripture and still writes a bad review about HIS Scripture,
and still unjustly calling it a fiction or fantasy,

even then he/she will Not be burned for eternity, --(unless he/she starts to burn the believers in HIS Scripture here
and never wants to repent thereafter for eternity =85/4-10 & 6/27-2--

but AL-LAH (and those who believe in HIM) will only do this,
as a Most Fair & Most Equitable Recompense

HE (and those who believe in HIM) will Not like his/her book (=i.e. atheistic or agnostic or deistic ideology, or whatever else he/she advocates for)
and write a bad review about his/her book and will think that the story that he/she wrote (=which contains atheistic or agnostic or deistic idiocies & atrocities,
.......) are merely their own fiction and fantasy, and utter idiocies.

And AL-LAH has no obligation to feed them, or to care for them or reward them by granting them another planet like our Earth,
but has every Right to put them into a barren planet and let them take care of themselves therein, as long as they want to stay away from HIM
and despise HIM for the sake of their own hedonistic and egotistic ideologies.

Even then AL-LAH keeps the Door open for those who will truly and sincerely repent and return to HIM,
because HE is The Best Forgiver & The Most Merciful. (=25/69-71 & 11/107)

I think this is Absolutely Most Equitable & Most Fair.
Who can blame AL-LAH for HIS Perfect Justice, here and in the hereafter, always and forever. (=6/160 & 40/17, 40 & 85/4-10 & .....)

So, we should immediately repent and return to HIM, and should wholeheartedly love and support HIM,
and should always stand by HIM Alone, always and forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=23/1-11 & 25/69-71)

Remain in peace/salaam.

Timotheus

And AL-LAH has no obligation to feed them, or to care for them or reward them by granting them another planet like our Earth,
but has every Right to put them into a barren planet and let them take care of themselves therein, as long as they want to stay away from HIM
and despise HIM for the sake of their own hedonistic and egotistic ideologies.

Alhamdullilah, What a great example!

truthseeker11

Peace Comrox,

You hit the mother lode with this one!

I see some more troubling verses in common between our lists! Are you sure you don't have spiritual powers and secretly copying from my list?

This is exactly the first thing that alerted me to the possibility of tampering with the original positive channeling to the Prophet and had my alarm bells going. The archeological discovery of Sanaa manuscripts dating to the time of the Prophet confirmed my growing suspicions and provided indisputable and unequivocal evidence of possible tampering. Using the quranic methodology of inner compass/conscience (3030), mind/reason (numerous signs), knowledge (1736), and real world evidence (4153), I am 100% certain that the original positive channeling did not have any negative messages. I am willing to bet my life on it. I am eagerly awaiting the discovery of the original text for confirmation, which I am pretty sure is preserved somewhere on this Earth (unless already discovered and placed under lock and key by the authorities ) Just like what they did to Sanaa manuscripts.

You are right. All those qualities indicate a god that is separate from the creation (which contradicts 2115 right away). A jealous, vengeful, wrathful, needy and insecure god. Not the MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST INFINITE CREATOR.

I have spent years reflecting on this, interpreting, re interpreting, discussing, using the quranic methodology, but doesn't make any sense no matter how you interpret the Arabic.

Please go through my following post in past which dissects this in great detail and focuses on the most powerful evidence based on conscience, mind and reasoning (what the quran itself recommends us to use for verification of its truth)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636

Let me give you an example. If your heart cell or nerve cell malfunctions, will you get angry and cut it off from your body and "burn" it or would you try to repair the damage, if you had unlimited powers of healing and regeneration? Your kidney not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your heart not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your liver not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your eye not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Not just cut them off and burn them but be angry at them and curse them. Nice solutions (sarcastic) especially when you have the power to regenerate and heal them completely.

Some verse examples below. There are more but I felt that this was a long enough list.

493 "And whoever kills a believer intentionally, then his recompense shall be Hell, abiding therein, and God will be angry with him, and curse him, and for him is prepared a great retribution."

Justice would have been to place that person in a similar situation in next life in order to experience the same that he/she did to the other person, i.e. be killed in similar circumstances.

560 "Say 'Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worse place and are more astray from the right path.'"

Did they conduct genetic engineering experiments and convert some humans to apes and pigs that such treatment was justified? Contradicts 4017.

4017 Today, every soul will be recompensed for what it had earned. There will be no injustice today. Truly, allah is swift in reckoning.

4728 "That is because they followed that which angered God, and they hated that which pleased Him. Thus, He nullified their works."

How do you explain the verses that seem to speak of nullification, then? Such as the following "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers." 3965

Very human emotions. Good deeds nullified? Doesn't make any sense. Contradicts 440 and 997.

440 Indeed, allah does not wrong the weight of an atom; and if it is good he will DOUBLE it. And he grants from himself a great recompense.

997 So whoever does the weight of an atom of good will see it.

2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a BETTER reward than it .........

As God calls Himself the Just, perhaps we can take the concept of God's revenge and simply put another name on it? Karma perhaps? https//www.thetreeofawakening.com/karma/

It is not the infinite Creator's revenge. It is just a karmic repercussion of your action CHOSEN BY YOURSELF!! In reality you and everyone else is a tiny part of the infinite Creator. When you die and your spirit (part of the infinite Creator) reaches the SITTER SPACE (between lives area), you yourself review all your actions in the life just passed (of course with help of spirit guides), and then you yourself acknowledge the mistakes you made, and then you yourself VOLUNTARILY choose to place yourself in a situation in your next life where you will experience the same wrongdoings done to yourself that you did to others, to restore the balance. YOU CHOOSE IT YOURSELF EXERCISING YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Because now in the 6th density spirit existence, free of the restraints of the 3rd density and having veil of forgetfulness lifted, you as part of the infinite Creator realize all your mistakes and ashamed of it and you yourself choose your own recompensation. YOU WILL REALIZE THAT BY HURTING OTHERS YOU ACTUALLY HURT YOURSELF BECAUSE IN REALITY WE ARE ALL ONE, A TINY PART OF THE INFINITE CREATOR.

Doesn't this make more sense than a wrathful, vengeful and objectified god (something like Zeus or Apollo or Enlil of the Annunaki), getting angry with you and cursing you and taking revenge on you?

How do you explain the verses that seem to speak of nullification, then? Such as the following "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your works, and you will be of the losers." 3965

EDIT I examined the verses surrounding 3965 and it seems that they are speaking of one (the rejecter) who has turned away in arrogance (3959), has not chosen a righteous path (3957), and has ordered to serve other than God (3964). And I think we all know, specifically, what the definition of righteousness is, as per 2177. Although it seems worth noting that God is only speaking of one aspect of a disbeliever, setting up partners, that equates to nullification of deeds (in 3965). Which then begs the question why did He single out setting up partners?

Exactly, the part of your quote that I emphasized doesn't make any sense whatsoever and is the most powerful evidence of possible tampering with the original positive channeling, and I have dissected this in great detail here. Please read my post carefully

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636

I do read only translations, and I'm aware that it is a problem. One day I hope to reach the understanding that you, and a lot of other people on this forum, have. I've tried looking at or downloading lane lexicons online but I got confused and couldn't understand how to access them once I downloaded them... I would prefer physical books but the ones I've seen on Amazon are so expensive. Excuses, I know.

I agree you have to be careful about translations because the translators DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY MISTRANSLATE to misguide you. Do your own research first and use the quranic methodology. The problem is, no matter how you interpret those verses, the issues you raised cannot be resolved. I have spent years learning and interpreting the verses in question every possible way, and still could not resolve those issues. In my opinion, the only possible hypothesis is that the original positive channeling has been possibly tampered with.

Be intellectually honest with yourself. Many members here are extremely learned and deep down they see the truth but then they become intellectually dishonest with themselves and let their emotions, presuppositions and dogmatic beliefs that they are brainwashed with, overrule the voice of the inner conscience. I know that because few years ago I was the same!

May the love and light of the Infinite Creator be with you and may the INFINITE, MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST CREATOR guide you towards the truth.

Peace

Bender

Peace, i believe you are incorrect.

God Forgives whomever he wills, whatever he wills. << full stop

read 272-4, it gives the example of when some from the children of israel killed someone, followed by an example how how God ressurected them, Followed by an example of how after that they hardened there hearts, but crucialy.. followed by an example of what can become of a hard heart..

That sign increased my faith, i used to be very hard hearted, because before i turned to God i was a huge transgressor, but i believe God has purified me alot since then, though surely i have a huge way to go, may my lord help me.

Moses killed a man, it may not have been murder, i do not know, it may have been manslaughter, but none the less, he did wrong, and his lord forgave him.

is there unforgivable sin?

yes indeed, 448,4116, but it is not murder.

also, in my understanding, God informs us that he will not forgive certain people, and theese people are

mushrikoon,kafiroon,munafiqeen -or-
assosciators with God, rejectors and Hypocrites.

Other than that, in my knowledge, of the quran at least, he does not say anyone else is unforgivable..

of course, there is more to it than that.. God also informs us that,

Killing an innocent is like killing all of mankind..

would God forgive someone who killed all of mankind?

That is HIS judgement, not mine, yours or anyone elses. God does what he wills, glorified is He. He forgives whoever he wills, and he punishes whoever he wills.

Am i justifying evil? no way, it is obviously a great transgression to murder, and one of the fundamental and clear laws of God.

There are great examples in the accounts of the gospels, for example

luke 13
Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, do you think that these were sinners beyond all men who lived in Jerusalem? No, I say to you; but if you do not repent, you will all perish in the same way.

matthew 5
`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

Peace.

EDIT of course this is only my understanding, i may be inccorrect, and probably am in parts, do not believe what i say, rather, what God has revealed.
also, the verses from gospel accounts i quoted are YLT (youngs literal translation)

Peace

Hi,

Indeed God does what He wills but Gods Word is true He does not change it. On murder there is punishment, so has He decided it.
That does not mean you will never be forgiven, it means you have to pay for what you have done. After you have payed, then there is hopefully/maybe forgiveness.

Of course this is also only my understanding.

Timotheus

Peace bender,

God turns sin into credits if he wills,

also

'oh ye my servants who have transgressed againt themselves, do not despair of the mercy of god, as god forgives the collected sin'

in reference to my example of moses, i did ponder this, and he did end up spending however many pilgrimages working in midian and 40 years wandering the wilderness, and underwent great tests, so i think this is a good example. he surely attoned for his sin, but he also did say after killing 'my lord because you have shown me mercy i will not help the wrongdoers'. if god wills he can blot out all sins and turn them into credits.

peace

Bender

How did you start learning if I may ask? )

I knew the alphabet since I was young.
There are a lot of courses on youtube where you can learn the alphabet, like this one.

Anyways, since I already knew how to read, I just started to examine the words, sentences and the structures of the verses.
I did this with the available translations, every time I saw some weird things in the translations it was for me a hint to take a closer look at the Arabic text.
One of the things I also did and is very helpful, was trying to solve the contradictions presented in those anti quran sites, like this one
If you like solving puzzles then it's for sure not a waste of time.

Actually your question in this topic would have been a reason for me to examine the arabic text.
From your intuition God does not seek revenge etc.
Your intuition is the real quran, you should trust on that as that is what God inspires you, the written scripture we call the quran should be just a confirmation of what God is inspiring to you IF the book is indeed what I think it is.
What I do is, I seek for the arabic word that is translated as revenge and look how it is used in other verses, I compare the verses how they are build and then make an assumption and test if my assumption holds in all verses, if not I try to figure out why not, and try to make a better theory etc etc etc

Oh 1 tip, don't read more then there is, it will make it only harder.

?

Does it make sense to you?
When I read such translations I know for sure something is wrong with the translation.

Bender

truthseeker11, when you can not solve something it does not mean it can't be solved. Sometimes it's a good idea to question our understanding, it may open new doors.

truthseeker11

Peace Bender,

Your intuition is the real quran, you should trust on that as that is what God inspires you, the written scripture we call the quran should be just a confirmation of what God is inspiring to you IF the book is indeed what I think it is.

bravo bravo bravo

3030, 4153

Peace

Bender

Peace bender,

God turns sin into credits if he wills,

also

'oh ye my servants who have transgressed againt themselves, do not despair of the mercy of god, as god forgives the collected sin'

Peace,

Murder is not transgressing against ourselves, murder is transgressing against others.

in reference to my example of moses, i did ponder this, and he did end up spending however many pilgrimages working in midian and 40 years wandering the wilderness, and underwent great tests, so i think this is a good example. he surely attoned for his sin, but he also did say after killing 'my lord because you have shown me mercy i will not help the wrongdoers'. if god wills he can blot out all sins and turn them into credits.

peace

I have a different view on Moses story in the quran. But even if you take the traditional view then he did not murder but killed someone by accident.

Timotheus

Peace,

Murder is not transgressing against ourselves, murder is transgressing against others.

I have a different view on Moses story in the quran. But even if you take the traditional view then he did not murder but killed someone by accident.

Peace.

I agree. and i do not follow traditions. The point i emphasized is that God does what he wills, he forgives whoever he wills. I have met many murderers, i still share the message with them, i still hope that they will soften there heart to God. The righteous do not need salvation, the transgressors do.

Comrox

Peace all,

Suppose you write a letter to order a blanket, suppose you send it to a shop for books. The order may beompletely correct, with all the specifications and everything. but you sent it to the wrong address. You receive no answer or you receive an answer which tells you that they cannot erve that. YOu have to sed it to correct address and when you do you will get your blanket.

Of course, it is not the same, but it is not the sameon many counts. Le tus change to another supposition you are in lve with a boy who is good, patient, charming, wise, but you do not know him visually nd somehow you get oncufse and look at a young which through confusion you think it is him, you peak with him but sort of you are nnot getting the wisdom, the patient listeing, the kindness and understndig and the enerosity which you were expecting... Till you do not go to the right person it will be like that

Of course God is not a nice boy, nor a shop for books and is above ll that and inn fact controls shops of all kids and all kinds of boys, that the fact is that there is something wrong with you because you do not give enough attention to what you do or you are gullible and si a good lookig face and think that that will go with a good heart. There may be something that makes yous see what you fncy rather tha reality, if it is lack of maturity or concentration, not somethig you do out of contumacy, I think eventully you will get it right and Godwill guido you, but what if it is just because you are too lazy and can0tbe bothered or becaue you want o humilliate others and God's demands exaspeprate you and who is He to order you around, and lo, you are your own God, it nullifies everything, because if you choose to be out reality, you will be out of reality and nobody can helpp you except your will to return to your senses. It is not that God feel so insulted that he needs to punish you, no it is you who needs to be punished so that you tone down and come back to reality. When you do, you will gt all your points back if you recover from your dellusion.

Let us say that you know your daughter or your son is befriending a person who might be in affairs which are dishonest or dangerous. You may be sure, the inn that case of course you will protect your people to the best of your ability. But still unless it is necessary to protect others yu will not shout it around. If all you have is suspicion, you will state so to your people and ak them to be very carefulnd watch out nd if they see any signs of it being true get out of the way or if they don't but stillthere is suspicion to be very careful and don't tak any steps that could ot be undone.

But of course, less still than in the prvious case, you ar not going to spread it all around.

Salaam

Thanks for providing the analogies.

What you said here "I think eventully you will get it right and Godwill guido you, but what if it is just because you are too lazy and can0tbe bothered or becaue you want o humilliate others and God's demands exaspeprate you and who is He to order you around, and lo, you are your own God, it nullifies everything, because if you choose to be out reality, you will be out of reality and nobody can helpp you except your will to return to your senses."

A lot of atheists say that in a sense. Even some monotheists here have said that, in a sense, also, when speaking of God and also describing Him to be anthropomorphic.

Also calls into question what is reality, really; how do each of us shape our own realities, how are our perceptions and interpretations measured by the one "reality"; etc. Makes me thing of the Matrix.

I feel like I have to study the concept of shirk more as it relates to people in the Qur'an. That's something I haven't looked into that much. Perhaps understanding more about this idea that seems to do harm will help me further. Although I still don't see what the point is with singling out "setting up partners" specifically, as if there is something inherently and morally wrong with every form of polytheism in the world that I am lacking understanding of.

Peace Comrox,

You hit the mother lode with this one!

I see some more troubling verses in common between our lists! Are you sure you don't have spiritual powers and secretly copying from my list?

Umm... Maybe we're twins who were separated at birth? >D -X

This is exactly the first thing that alerted me to the possibility of tampering with the original positive channeling to the Prophet and had my alarm bells going. The archeological discovery of Sanaa manuscripts dating to the time of the Prophet confirmed my growing suspicions and provided indisputable and unequivocal evidence of possible tampering. Using the quranic methodology of inner compass/conscience (3030), mind/reason (numerous signs), knowledge (1736), and real world evidence (4153), I am 100% certain that the original positive channeling did not have any negative messages. I am willing to bet my life on it. I am eagerly awaiting the discovery of the original text for confirmation, which I am pretty sure is preserved somewhere on this Earth (unless already discovered and placed under lock and key by the authorities ) Just like what they did to Sanaa manuscripts.

I would love to see an "original text" found as well, and to see the Sanaa manuscripts looked into, if they are indeed under lock and key (not that I don't trust you, just haven't researched the topic myself and have never heard anything about such an event occurring).

You are right. All those qualities indicate a god that is separate from the creation (which contradicts 2115 right away). A jealous, vengeful, wrathful, needy and insecure god. Not the MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST INFINITE CREATOR.

I've read in one of the later chapters of Qur'an that God is also called the Innermost, or something similar to it (Innermost using the translation, not sure what the actual Arabic says for it).

I have spent years reflecting on this, interpreting, re interpreting, discussing, using the quranic methodology, but doesn't make any sense no matter how you interpret the Arabic.

Huh. You've gone through all of these verses, or similar, or just focused on the words in question that suggest such qualities of God?

Please go through my following post in past which dissects this in great detail and focuses on the most powerful evidence based on conscience, mind and reasoning (what the quran itself recommends us to use for verification of its truth)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636

Let me give you an example. If your heart cell or nerve cell malfunctions, will you get angry and cut it off from your body and "burn" it or would you try to repair the damage, if you had unlimited powers of healing and regeneration? Your kidney not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your heart not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your liver not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Your eye not working properly, cut it off and burn it. Not just cut them off and burn them but be angry at them and curse them. Nice solutions (sarcastic) especially when you have the power to regenerate and heal them completely.

So your belief is that God and humankind is One?

I read through the post that you kindly linked above. I know I need to study more deeply the concept of Hell as well. I don't think people are going to reside in Hell eternity, no, you are right that this is not justice. I also know some have said here that the time spent in Hell is eternal but Hell itself as a creation is not eternal.

The way you worded your answer, it sounds like you understand the "picture" of Hell as described in Qur'an must be taken quite literally.

Justice would have been to place that person in a similar situation in next life in order to experience the same that he/she did to the other person, i.e. be killed in similar circumstances.

Did they conduct genetic engineering experiments and convert some humans to apes and pigs that such treatment was justified? Contradicts 4017.

4017 Today, every soul will be recompensed for what it had earned. There will be no injustice today. Truly, allah is swift in reckoning.

Very human emotions. Good deeds nullified? Doesn't make any sense. Contradicts 440 and 997.

440 Indeed, allah does not wrong the weight of an atom; and if it is good he will DOUBLE it. And he grants from himself a great recompense.

997 So whoever does the weight of an atom of good will see it.

2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a BETTER reward than it .........

Beautiful verses, thank you for reminding me of them.

It is not the infinite Creator's revenge. It is just a karmic repercussion of your action CHOSEN BY YOURSELF!! In reality you and everyone else is a tiny part of the infinite Creator. When you die and your spirit (part of the infinite Creator) reaches the SITTER SPACE (between lives area), you yourself review all your actions in the life just passed (of course with help of spirit guides), and then you yourself acknowledge the mistakes you made, and then you yourself VOLUNTARILY choose to place yourself in a situation in your next life where you will experience the same wrongdoings done to yourself that you did to others, to restore the balance. YOU CHOOSE IT YOURSELF EXERCISING YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Because now in the 6th density spirit existence, free of the restraints of the 3rd density and having veil of forgetfulness lifted, you as part of the infinite Creator realize all your mistakes and ashamed of it and you yourself choose your own recompensation. YOU WILL REALIZE THAT BY HURTING OTHERS YOU ACTUALLY HURT YOURSELF BECAUSE IN REALITY WE ARE ALL ONE, A TINY PART OF THE INFINITE CREATOR.

Doesn't this make more sense than a wrathful, vengeful and objectified god (something like Zeus or Apollo or Enlil of the Annunaki), getting angry with you and cursing you and taking revenge on you?

Basically what I meant, but you included much more detail. I was thinking of karma in the very general concept that everyone seems to know, such as when you do something wrong to another person and then something happens to you and someone says it's karma.

Exactly, the part of your quote that I emphasized doesn't make any sense whatsoever and is the most powerful evidence of possible tampering with the original positive channeling, and I have dissected this in great detail here. Please read my post carefully

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607220.msg363636#msg363636

Couldn't 228 be speaking of the Last Day, where people are brought to life again and returned to "stand" before God for his or her deeds?

4011 sounds more convincing to be speaking of another life, although I suppose the two deaths could be when we were with God before, and then when we died in this life; and the two lives could be when we were born in this world, and when we were brought back to life on the Last Day. Just some speculation.

I agree you have to be careful about translations because the translators DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY MISTRANSLATE to misguide you.

All of them? ??? -\

Do your own research first and use the quranic methodology. The problem is, no matter how you interpret those verses, the issues you raised cannot be resolved. I have spent years learning and interpreting the verses in question every possible way, and still could not resolve those issues. In my opinion, the only possible hypothesis is that the original positive channeling has been possibly tampered with.

Be intellectually honest with yourself. Many members here are extremely learned and deep down they see the truth but then they become intellectually dishonest with themselves and let their emotions, presuppositions and dogmatic beliefs that they are brainwashed with, overrule the voice of the inner conscience. I know that because few years ago I was the same!

May the love and light of the Infinite Creator be with you and may the INFINITE, MOST MERCIFUL, WISE, LOVING AND JUST CREATOR guide you towards the truth.

Peace

Thank you, very good advice that I will try my best to stick to, God willing.

May the love and light be with you as well, and everyone here. group

I knew the alphabet since I was young.
There are a lot of courses on youtube where you can learn the alphabet, like this one.

Thanks for the link! I'll look into it.

My partner said he would be willing to pay for some online classes for me to help me learn more, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of classes he would like for me to take. If I can learn some Arabic though, that would be great.

Anyways, since I already knew how to read, I just started to examine the words, sentences and the structures of the verses.
I did this with the available translations, every time I saw some weird things in the translations it was for me a hint to take a closer look at the Arabic text.
One of the things I also did and is very helpful, was trying to solve the contradictions presented in those anti quran sites, like this one
If you like solving puzzles then it's for sure not a waste of time.

Funny, I've done the same thing. A while back I bought a book that claimed it had some serious questions and issues concerning Islam. I sectioned off the part that focused on the Qur'an (was only about one third of the book) and read through it. Most of the "problems" addressed I found I was able to resolve on my own through examining the verses and reasoning. Some were historical, others I couldn't think my way out of completely or I got confused so I sticky-noted them and vowed to come back (hint I never did). The book is sitting on my shelf right now, and although I went through the whole section, I'm not sure if I feel compelled enough to pick it up again and go through. Honestly since I already went through it I just think I'm being lazy. Now that I've told you that, I must hide from myself. & nope

Actually your question in this topic would have been a reason for me to examine the arabic text.
From your intuition God does not seek revenge etc.
Your intuition is the real quran, you should trust on that as that is what God inspires you, the written scripture we call the quran should be just a confirmation of what God is inspiring to you IF the book is indeed what I think it is.
What I do is, I seek for the arabic word that is translated as revenge and look how it is used in other verses, I compare the verses how they are build and then make an assumption and test if my assumption holds in all verses, if not I try to figure out why not, and try to make a better theory etc etc etc

Sounds like a really good idea! Thanks, I'll try to give it a shot when I have time.

Yesterday I watched a video on YouTube called "False Prophets." Basically explained that there's no such thing, we're all messengers, and we all have our own perspectives and interpretations that add to or color the understanding of the message.

Oh 1 tip, don't read more then there is, it will make it only harder.

Can be hard to do for me, if you haven't already been able to tell. giveup

All these ideas and images pop up in my head...

Does it make sense to you?
When I read such translations I know for sure something is wrong with the translation.

Literally, no, it doesn't make sense. Figuratively... possibly? But I never take such verses in a literal light, so maybe that's why I find it "easy" per se to read past theses verses.

good_logic

Peace huruf,comrox,all.

I like your examples huruf.

You mentioned "shirk" comrox, please allow me to give the following example/analogy

Imagine a mother that gave birth to a child,cared ,loved,shaped the early years and developed that child. Imagine ,for some rebellious /other factors,the child completely cuts off the ties with the mother and takes on other "mothers" for advice, relationship, support, friendship,help ...etc.
Because the mother loves the child ,she is always waiting patiently and hopes the child returns to her, but it hurts and saddens her deeply that her own child has chosen others and cut off all ties with his natural mother.
How does this feel? The mums and dads of this world will understand clearly what it means!
That is what "shirk" means to me.
Of course the words anger,wrath,revenge may cross the mind of such heartless act of "shirk",but deep down love,care,forgiveness and compassion are the ultimate feelings that will prevail if the child returns to the "mother".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

link=topic=9608689.msg391884#msg391884 date=1468746169]
Peace all,

Thanks for providing the analogies. )

What you said here "I think eventully you will get it right and Godwill guido you, but what if it is just because you are too lazy and can0tbe bothered or becaue you want o humilliate others and God's demands exaspeprate you and who is He to order you around, and lo, you are your own God, it nullifies everything, because if you choose to be out reality, you will be out of reality and nobody can helpp you except your will to return to your senses."

A lot of atheists say that in a sense. Even some monotheists here have said that, in a sense, also, when speaking of God and also describing Him to be anthropomorphic.

Also calls into question what is reality, really; how do each of us shape our own realities, how are our perceptions and interpretations measured by the one "reality"; etc. Makes me thing of the Matrix.

I feel like I have to study the concept of shirk more as it relates to people in the Qur'an. That's something I haven't looked into that much. Perhaps understanding more about this idea that seems to do harm will help me further. Although I still don't see what the point is with singling out "setting up partners" specifically, as if there is something inherently and morally wrong with every form of polytheism in the world that I am lacking understanding of.

We tend to think of God and His acts as thing of magic, as something arbitrary that He does out whim or reckless feeling of allpowerfullness.

But it is not so. Everything is, as He affirms, according to truth, He is truth, AlHaqq. If He says associating something to Him has consequences, it is not mere a matter of bilieving so because He says so, He tells us something which is in agreement with the Reallity that we know and as we know it.

It is a fact that we do know that we are not allpowerful, that in fact we are very umpowerful, when we rely on something that is contingent and not allpowerful we are off completely. Our accounts will never square because we insist to remain in the realms of magic and not in the realms of truth, of AlHaqq,

44.39

We created them not except with truth but most of them do not understand.

Everything has been created with truth, not with magic. God is truth. What will we set up with truth? Nothing, we can't we can only delude ourselves.

As to politheists, politheism is not because we take an abstract concept and give it a name and call it a God, but because we do expect help from what is not allpowerful.

Many religions so called politheists are not such. They do not believe there are different realities allpowerful, they believe in a Single reality which is all powerful simply they give names and concepts under that allpowerful that is. Like Isis, Isis is a concept of mercy of perseverance in mercy and courage for goodness and Unity. It is beautiful parable, really beautiful and moving and inspiring.

On the other hand shirk is available under any religion or lack of it. We set up partners to inevitability to allpowerfullnnes by claiming for the help of some delusional allpowerfullness that might bemore amenable to do our bid, or to satisfy our anguishes or our cravings. Those partners are to our undoing by the very simple fact that they aren't. But our need may push us to call them to our help.

Of course we are all needy wretches many times in our lives and need, need, need comfort, relief, hope, rescue... And God tries us very acutely, so we may end up calling others for help.

Also we may bring to help us along some crutches in the form of relief, but without however hoping from them, just to asuage our suffering, that would not be settingup partners but some discharge of our stress...

On the other hand we may not need help but have craving for this or that, things that will make us important inthe world or to ourselves, and set up partners that we think may push us up in our careers or seekings. We feel that God may not be interested inn helping us with that and we seek somebody or somethinng more "reliable". The point is that there are things we may crave that we feel that God not might like and therefore go somewhere else...

I think shirk is not necessarily a religious thing, although of course it may happen also in the religious environment, in fact it does happen, but it is a universal ailment, even with people who nnominally do not believe in "God". No unreality will deliver us from reality. We may get angry with God we may be desperate, but nothing will change a thing to our codition of creatures under the absolute power of God. Good that He has spoken to us, that he has spoken to us of his Mercy of his tendersness of his Unending... That is the greatest of reliefs.

Salaam

huruf

Peace huruf,comrox,all.

I like your examples huruf.

You mentioned "shirk" comrox, please allow me to give the following example/analogy

Imagine a mother that gave birth to a child,cared ,loved,shaped the early years and developed that child. Imagine ,for some rebellious /other factors,the child completely cuts off the ties with the mother and takes on other "mothers" for advice, relationship, support, friendship,help ...etc.
Because the mother loves the child ,she is always waiting patiently and hopes the child returns to her, but it hurts and saddens her deeply that her own child has chosen others and cut off all ties with his natural mother.
How does this feel? The mums and dads of this world will understand clearly what it means!
That is what "shirk" means to me.
Of course the words anger,wrath,revenge may cross the mind of such heartless act of "shirk",but deep down love,care,forgiveness and compassion are the ultimate feelings that will prevail if the child returns to the "mother".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

That is a very moving, eloquent, example.

Salaam

truthseeker11

Peace Comrox, all,

Umm... Maybe we're twins who were separated at birth? > -X

I knew it. Now I can finally stop calling the adoption agencies looking for my long lost twin

Actually all of us, the entire humanity are "twins". We are all a tiny part of the infinite Creator. Analogy is that of an infinite tree with a strong trunk with branches, sub branches and then finally leaves. The infinite Creator would be analogous to the whole tree. We are the individual leaves. The whole universe is a tiny part of the infinite Creator with the infinite Creator = all that exists + infinitely more. The entire creation is a tiny extension and manifestation of the infinite intelligent energy as sub quantum lower vibrations of strings of energy. Also the grand unification theory and interconvertibility of matter and energy (E=m x c squared). This creates an illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator. Meditate on 2115.

I would love to see an "original text" found as well, and to see the Sanaa manuscripts looked into, if they are indeed under lock and key (not that I don't trust you, just haven't researched the topic myself and have never heard anything about such an event occurring).

https//doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/will-the-ancient-quranic-manuscripts-be-the-downfall-of-islam/

Excerpts

"Yemeni authorities already debarred Puin and Bothmer from further examination of those manuscripts. In fact, now they do not allow anyone to see those manuscripts anymore except some very carefully selected non-Quranic parchments, which are at display at the ground floor of Dar al-Makhtutat Library."

"Ursula Dreibholz, a preservation expert, who worked on the Sana?a project for eight years as the chief conservator, is much frustrated by seeing the lack of concern of Yemeni authorities to protect those manuscripts by using modern technology (1983, p. 30-8 ). Neither the security devices are correct, nor is adequate attention being given to the manuscripts to avoid further deterioration (1996, p. 131?45). In fact, Dreibholz (1999, p. 21?5) said that it was her greatest concern to create a safe and reliable permanent storage system for the restored fragments. Also, the poor storage hardly has any protection from insects and water. Most importantly, there is a lack of fire prevention or detection system, keeping in mind the truly catastrophic fires that have destroyed important libraries and artworks around the world throughout history. The Yemeni authorities said they have neither money nor means to install fire protection systems. She does not understand the genuine reason behind the apathy of Yemeni authorities."

Some more links about Sanaa manuscripts

https//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.html

http//www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html

This also confirms Muslim historical evidence about existence of various codices of al-quran at the time of death of the messenger which reportedly had significant differences.

http//www.inthenameofallah.org/Codices%20of%20the%20Quran.html

Reportedly, caliph Usman arbitrarily chose one of the codices (Zaid's codex) as the standard text of al-quran and burned the remaining! (for example codices of Ibn Masud and Ubayy Ibn Ka'b). Question is, what was he trying to hide and who give him the authority to do what he did? Muhammad? Gabriel? The Infinite Creator? The sectarians own traditions say that Muhammad preferred the knowledge of quran of Ibn Masud over all others. Guess whose codex was conveniently destroyed - the codex of Ibn Masud!

Example of tampering with original text that makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in meaning (relevant to your thread). This example is from one of the above referenced links

"A. Several words are missing within a paragraph leading to a different meaning

Sahih International translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth (any protector or helper.)

Sana'a manuscript, ?DAM 0 1-27.1?, translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them in this world. And there will not be for them on earth (any protector or helper.)

The finishing letter, ?Alif?, in ?yatawallaw?, ?they turn away?, found in today?s standard text of the Quran is missing in the early manuscript under discussion, as indicated by the empty box with a black frame above. Moreover, in the the verb ?yu?addibhum?, ?he (Allah) will punish them?, found on ?Fol. 16r, Z.13?, is not explained with ?adaban aliman?, ?with a painful punishment?, as in the Standard Text (StT). There one finds ?fi?l-dunya wa-?l-ahirati?, ?in this world and in the Hereafter.? The Sana'a manuscript contains only ?in this world? and therefore fits better with the end of the verse in both versions ?And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.?"

There was no "painful punishment" and "hereafter" in the original text of 974. The original text just talked about punishment on Earth which is coherent with karmic repercussion and makes sense. The fabricators added "painful punishment" and "hereafter" in the current text to make it look like the infinite Creator will give severe punishment both in this world and the hereafter.

You can imagine how much more similar tampering could have been done with the original text, which would explain all the contradictions and discrepancies under discussion.

So your belief is that God and humankind is One?

2115 clearly indicates that the Creator is infinite, therefore all creation has to be part of the infinite Creator. If the Creator is not infinite and creation is separate from the creator then the creator must end somewhere and the creation begin somewhere. So there will be an area in space/time occupied only by creation and not creator. If you face that portion of space/time where creator doesn't exist and only creation exists then 2115 will become false.

My question to you if you and the infinite Creator are not one, and you are not a tiny part of the infinite Creator, then where does the infinite Creator end, and you begin? Think/reflect on what I just said.

I read through the post that you kindly linked above. I know I need to study more deeply the concept of Hell as well. I don't think people are going to reside in Hell eternity, no, you are right that this is not justice. I also know some have said here that the time spent in Hell is eternal but Hell itself as a creation is not eternal.

It doesn't matter. The verses clearly say that

A. MAJORITY of people will be mushrikeen (polytheists)

12106 And MOST of them will not believe in allah except while setting up partners.

B. Mushrikeen will be put in fire

572 ........... Whoever sets up partners with allah, then the god will restrict the paradise from him, and his destiny will be the fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."

C. Mushrikeen will NEVER be forgiven

448 allah does not forgive that partners be set up with him, and he forgives other than that for whom he pleases. Whoever sets up partners with the god has indeed invented a great sin.

4116 allah does not forgive that partners be set up with him, and he forgives other than that for whom he pleases. Whoever sets up partners with the god has indeed strayed a far straying.

Putting A, B, and C together, MAJORITY of people will be put in fire with NO CHANCE OF FORGIVENESS ------------> FOR ETERNITY

Secondly, the infinite Creator will never forgive MAJORITY of people and make them suffer forever and is also THE MERCIFUL?

This combined with 2115 which proves creation is part of the Infinite Creator indicates that the Infinite Creator will put a part of itself in fire for eternity with no chance of forgiveness.

THIS DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER.

The "punishment" should be proportional to the harm done by the "crime"

4017 Today, every soul will be recompensed for what it had earned. There will be no injustice today. Truly, allah is swift in reckoning.

Eternal punishment with no chance of forgiveness indicates permanent/irreversible harm. How can setting up partners with the infinite Creator cause permanent/irreversible harm to the infinite Creator which deserves an eternal suffering with no chance of forgiveness?

In actual reality, since all creation is a tiny part of the infinite Creator and the Creator is infinite, there is no partner possible of the infinite Creator. So the creation can set up all partners they want, in reality it does not make an iota of difference. Additionally, after death when the veil of forgetfulness is lifted, the creation will automatically realize that they are part of the infinite Creator and there is no partner and no partner is possible. They will realize that the illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator was temporary. Where is the permanent/irreversible harm to the infinite Creator?

The way you worded your answer, it sounds like you understand the "picture" of Hell as described in Qur'an must be taken quite literally.

Looks like you were taking my words "hellfire" literally

Metaphorical meanings are possible also in English language. Feel free to substitute "suffering" wherever you find "hellfire" in my post. Still doesn't make any sense, whether you take it literally or whether you take it metaphorically.

Couldn't 228 be speaking of the Last Day, where people are brought to life again and returned to "stand" before God for his or her deeds?

You missed the first death mentioned in beginning of 228 which automatically indicates a life before that death. That has to be a life previous to this life --------> reincarnation

4011 sounds more convincing to be speaking of another life, although I suppose the two deaths could be when we were with God before, and then when we died in this life; and the two lives could be when we were born in this world, and when we were brought back to life on the Last Day. Just some speculation.

Do you mean to say we are not with the infinite Creator in this life?

4126 And to allah is what is in the heavens and the earth; and allah is encompassing all things.

5016 And we have created the human being and we know what his soul whispers to him, and we are closer to him than his jugular vein.

All of them? ??? -\

Yes all of them have serious errors in translation of some verses including the free minds translation.

Yesterday I watched a video on YouTube called "False Prophets." Basically explained that there's no such thing, we're all messengers, and we all have our own perspectives and interpretations that add to or color the understanding of the message.

The infinite Creator channels us all the time since we are all a tiny part of the infinite Creator. It is we who don't listen to it. Some recommended ways to listen to that channeling and to carry a two way dialogue with the infinite Creator are the following

Salat (close connection, intimate communication with the infinite Creator at certain times of the day)
Transcendental Meditation (which could be part of salat)
Channeling the infinite Creator or positive higher dimensional entities like Gabriel (which could be part of salat)
Astral projection or out of body experience or remote viewing (which could be part of salat)

All of the above can be done while in this 3rd density existence. You just have to learn and keep practicing until you get it. This is the reason why salat is stressed so many times in the quran.

################

The positive channeling of the divine message in the 1980s to a group of people in USA (through a female) does not have any of the discrepancies or contradictions. It confirms the fundamental teachings of the quran, namely

Oneness of the Infinite Creator (the law of one)
The last day (the day of harvest)
Doing good deeds (service to others)

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in allah and the last day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in allah and the last day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

There is no mention of any hellfire or hell. All creation is divided only into two groups, the STO group (service to others, good deeds), and the STS group (service to self). It just talks about karmic repercussion of the STO or STS. If you are > 51% STO you will evolve into positive 4th density beings on the day of harvest (the last day) and live on a positive 4th density planet (what you might call heaven). Any negative actions will have equal karmic repercussions in next life.

5660 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop us,
5661 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.

The STS group will either remain on 3rd density planet in next life (Earth or some other similar 3rd density planet) or evolve into negative 4th density beings on a negative 4th density planet. Either way they will have karmic repercussions of their negative actions, whether in 3rd or 4th density. It tells us not to hate the STS since they are also part of the infinite Creator, who have chosen to walk the STS path in accordance with the law of free will, and eventually by early 6th density they will all have faced their karmic repercussions and will freely choose to come back to STO path. All it says is just do not let them use you or exploit you or control and manipulate you for their selfish purposes while at the same time sending love and light their way.

STO path = helping others without expecting anything in return, horizontal society structure in which there is no hierarchy, no human above another human, all live symbiotically.

STS path = selfish actions at the expense of others, or helping others while expecting something in return, hierarchical social structure (example corporations, governments, military etc.) with a pyramidal hierarchy, everyone trying to take advantage and exploit the other for their own selfish agenda, there is control and manipulation using fear based tactics.

If you think about it, every single bad deed is caused by STS mentality and selfishness.

This is just a very small summary. It also mentions Muhammad in a positive manner, as well as Moses and Jesus. It says that all messengers were initially sent this same positive message (that was sent in 1980s) which was corrupted later on by the negative higher dimensional entities to deceive people and entice them to the STS path, but the channeling of the positive message never stops and anyone can access it at any time.

6112 And as such, we have permitted the enemies of every prophet-devils of mankind and jinn-to inspire/channel each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

Using the quranic methodology of inner compass/intuition (3030), mind/reason (numerous verses), knowledge (1736), and real world evidence (4153), I couldn't find any major contradictions and discrepancies in it and it all makes perfect sense. When I started reading it I was up for 36 straight hours reading it, I was riveted. For the first time in my life I felt total peace and all my unanswered questions were answered.

May the infinite Creator guide us all towards the truth.

Peace

truthseeker11

Peace good logic,

Imagine a mother that gave birth to a child,cared ,loved,shaped the early years and developed that child. Imagine ,for some rebellious /other factors,the child completely cuts off the ties with the mother and takes on other "mothers" for advice, relationship, support, friendship,help ...etc.
Because the mother loves the child ,she is always waiting patiently and hopes the child returns to her,

The difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

but it hurts and saddens her deeply that her own child has chosen others and cut off all ties with his natural mother.

Why would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

How does this feel? The mums and dads of this world will understand clearly what it means!

Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

Of course the words anger,wrath,revenge may cross the mind of such heartless act of "shirk",but deep down love,care,forgiveness and compassion are the ultimate feelings that will prevail if the child returns to the "mother".

Firstly, anger, wrath, revenge will NEVER cross the mind of the "mother" because of reasons I just gave above.

Secondly, the feelings of love, care, forgiveness and compassion will ALWAYS be there.

According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Peace

good_logic

Peace truthseeker11.

Thank you for your attempt. Let us see

1- You say,quoteThe difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

You are wrong. The instinct is there since the child was born and the message to remind kept coming.

2- You say,quoteWhy would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

Wrong again ,who is being tested? Surely not the mother. Hence the child must be unaware of the fantasy!

3-You say,quote Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

What you showed me is simply wrong if you reflect and ponder the message again .

4- Finally you say, quote According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Forgiveness is for everything including "shirk" if one repents before they die. Do I need to give you the many verses that state this?
Please ponder the message again.
GOD bless you.
Peace

truthseeker11

Peace good logic,

Peace truthseeker11.

Thank you for your attempt. Let us see

1- You say,quoteThe difference is the child has been made to forget who the mother is (by the mother), and is being expected to remember who the mother is after losing memory.

You are wrong. The instinct is there since the child was born and the message to remind kept coming.

Losing memory is a huge disadvantage despite instinct and messages. This is indisputable and not the child's fault. Does not justify no forgiveness leading to eternal suffering.

2- You say,quoteWhy would it hurt and sadden if the mother knows no other mothers exist, that it is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and that the child will soon come around after regaining lost memory? It wouldn't make any sense for the mother to be hurt and saddened.

Wrong again ,who is being tested? Surely not the mother. Hence the child must be unaware of the fantasy!

Huh? Are you ok? Strawman fallacy.

3-You say,quote Sorry, the way you presented the analogy, it is a completely wrong/false analogy as I just showed. Especially when the mother knows this is just a temporary fantasy her child is indulging in, and soon the child will regain lost memory, remember who the mother is, realize that no other mothers actually exist, and come around.

What you showed me is simply wrong if you reflect and ponder the message again.

Logical fallacy of circular reasoning.

4- Finally you say, quote According to the quran, however, forgiveness will NEVER prevail even when the "child" returns (448, 4116), thus the child might be made to suffer for eternity.

Forgiveness is for everything including "shirk" if one repents before they die. Do I need to give you the many verses that state this?

Logical fallacy of red herring.

My humble advice, please learn about logical fallacies.

Peace

good_logic

Peace brother.

Logical fallacies, circular reasoning and strawman fallacies? Sorry not interested.
I will stick with Qoran, thank you.
May the Lord save us from all fallacies and guide us to the truth.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Timotheus

Peace brother.

Logical fallacies, circular reasoning and strawman fallacies? Sorry not interested.
I will stick with Qoran, thank you.
May the Lord save us from all fallacies and guide us to the truth.

GOD bless you.
Peace

Peace,

Alhamdullilah, well said. The greatest fallacy is following ones own ego instead of the truth revealed to them, the message preserved by God, an instrucion to those who revere there Lord, even when alone on their own. May our lord guide the sincere to his truth, and protect us from the evil of our own desires, and purify us according to his mercy,

Peace