Have we given this script too much credit-made an idol of it
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God bless,
Ayman you said
Why do you think that unlike you The God can't say "Inna iddatushuhoori ithnaa ashara shahran wa sudus..."?
Because the count of months is not 12 and 1/6th. In our modern concept of math we say 1 1/2 days and 6 1/2 oranges. What I mean to say by that is that 6 days is in no way month, a month is 30 days. So why would the count of months be 12 and a sixth if we are counting whole months not parts of months? The count of months (30 day periods) is to be twelve. And even when taking into account 365 days the count of 30 day periods(months) is 12.
I can't make God coform to your sense of exactness. And why He didn't have stated ' A year is to be a count of 12 months and a sixth of a month', well I can't answer that for you. I can only read and analyze what is there. The words that I see in that passage are saying how many months(30 day periods) we are to count, supposedly in a year. If there are 5 days left over I don't see anything contradictory in that statement because 5 days is not a month. Nor do I see anything lacking in clarity because what was stated was how many months (30 day periods) are supposed to be calculated (in a year); and being that 5 days does not add up to a month it cannot be included a count geared towards counting months, not days. 6 days qualifies in a count of days but not in a count of months, if we want to be exact. It is a sixth of a month, true, but it is not a month and if we are counting months (&iddatushuhoor) it doesn't make the cut, nor does it need to make the cut.
I didn't say that all are lies. I said they are at best unverifiable and in many cases are verifiable as lies. They can never be verifiable as true unless you can wake the dead and ask them.
Recounting old wives tales is much sounder scientifically than a process that "builds off of Muslim efforts and methods but has advanced way beyond where Muslim scholarship left off" as you say. This is for the simple reason that old wives are old but at least they are not dead so one can at least go back to them and verify the tales. Your proposition doesn't even measure up to old wives tales.
I don't think you understood me well. The Historical Process that I was talking about that "builds off of Muslim efforts and methods but has advanced way beyond where Muslim scholarship left off" is the Modern Science of History, not Hadeethic History, the former is a whole lot sounder scientifically than recounting old wives tales. The Modern Science of History also deals with the History of the Ancients and in that case they are also dealing with hearsay and old anonymous texts. The most logical story that comes about from these hearsays and anonymous texts we have to consider as truth as these are the only evidences we have, despite all the possible doubt that can be brought up against them.
In the case of the Hadeeth Muslim scholarship did a half-ass job. Because of the culture and time frame that they were in they considered the reputation of narrators more important than content. It is simple thinking, "Good honest, respectable men speak and act in good, honest and respectable ways." They only took it that far. Whereas the next step would have been to compare it to every possible interpretation of the Koran to eliminate contradictory stories. For instance the gospels of the Bible are anonymous hearsays. Good scholarship judges the narrators if possible and then judges the content. From that they form a more credible story. In our case we know about Jesus' life God bless him from a provable divine source. Knowing that we can easily form a more credible and more realistic interpretation of the story of Jesus, using the original scripts and what we know of him from the Koran. I would love to be apart of a project like that. I see words like 'Lord' and 'seeing that the was dead' and I know that they can with just reason be translated as 'Noble or Sir' and 'Thinking that he was dead.' and more.
It is the same with the Hadeeth. If a Hadeeth says that God gave a man named Muhammad a scripture that declared him as a prophet and so he began to preach among the people what the scipture taught him, and that hadeeth has a sound chain there is no reason to reject that hadeeth as historically incorrect.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Ayman you said
Why do you think that unlike you The God can't say "Inna iddatushuhoori ithnaa ashara shahran wa sudus..."?
Because the count of months is not 12 and 1/6th. In our modern concept of math we say 1 1/2 days and 6 1/2 oranges.
So now you are blaming us for fractions and saying that they are OURS!
Instead of blaming "our modern concept" of fractions, please blame your faulty understanding of the word "shahr". Fractions is not a "modern concept of math" as you claim. In fact fractions are used in many instances of the great reading so the Arabs undubiously knew about fractions.
What I mean to say by that is that 6 days is in no way month, a month is 30 days. So why would the count of months be 12 and a sixth if we are counting whole months not parts of months?
Because 12 1/6 is the real count of your months in a year. I say your months because no calendar system in the world since the beginning of history has ever had constant 30 day periods.
The count of months (30 day periods) is to be twelve. And even when taking into account 365 days the count of 30 day periods(months) is 12.
No, if you take 365 then the count is 12 1/6 Anwar months/30 day periods. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the year had 360 days.
I can't make God coform to your sense of exactness.
You are giving me too much credit. I didn't invent fractions. In fact, I got the word "sudus" (1/6) from the great reading. This comment is based on the faulty assumption that The God doesn't know about fractions.
And why He didn't have stated ' A year is to be a count of 12 months and a sixth of a month', well I can't answer that for you.
You can't answer it because you don't have a logical answer.
I can only read and analyze what is there. The words that I see in that passage are saying how many months(30 day periods) we are to count, supposedly in a year. If there are 5 days left over I don't see anything contradictory in that statement because 5 days is not a month. Nor do I see anything lacking in clarity because what was stated was how many months (30 day periods) are supposed to be calculated (in a year); and being that 5 days does not add up to a month it cannot be included a count geared towards counting months, not days. 6 days qualifies in a count of days but not in a count of months, if we want to be exact. It is a sixth of a month, true, but it is not a month and if we are counting months (&iddatushuhoor) it doesn't make the cut, nor does it need to make the cut.
Your entire hypothesis is based on a number of extraordinary claims for which you have no proof
- A month is 30 days. There is no calendar system nor has ever been one that has constant 30 day months.
- Fractions are not to be counted.
The Modern Science of History also deals with the History of the Ancients and in that case they are also dealing with hearsay and old anonymous texts. The most logical story that comes about from these hearsays and anonymous texts we have to consider as truth as these are the only evidences we have, despite all the possible doubt that can be brought up against them.
Anonymous texts are evidence that can be carbon dated and analyzed. Hearsay is not evidence. It is unverifiable.
In the case of the Hadeeth Muslim scholarship did a half-ass job. Because of the culture and time frame that they were in they considered the reputation of narrators more important than content. It is simple thinking, "Good honest, respectable men speak and act in good, honest and respectable ways." They only took it that far. Whereas the next step would have been to compare it to every possible interpretation of the Koran to eliminate contradictory stories. For instance the gospels of the Bible are anonymous hearsays. Good scholarship judges the narrators if possible and then judges the content. From that they form a more credible story. In our case we know about Jesus' life God bless him from a provable divine source. Knowing that we can easily form a more credible and more realistic interpretation of the story of Jesus, using the original scripts and what we know of him from the Koran. I would love to be apart of a project like that. I see words like 'Lord' and 'seeing that the was dead' and I know that they can with just reason be translated as 'Noble or Sir' and 'Thinking that he was dead.' and more.
It is the same with the Hadeeth. If a Hadeeth says that God gave a man named Muhammad a scripture that declared him as a prophet and so he began to preach among the people what the scipture taught him, and that hadeeth has a sound chain there is no reason to reject that hadeeth as historically incorrect.
It is historically incorrect no matter what it says. It doesn't reflect the thinking of people at the time it was gathered nor does it reflect the thinking of people at the time it claims it was said. It is simply unverifiable hearsay. If it didn't have the chain of narration then it would have at least reflected the thinking of people at the time it was gathered.
The fact is that no single hearsay account can be accepted as historically correct or true because all hearsay by definition is unverifiable. Even if the content of the hearsay is confirmed by the great reading, it is still unverifiable. The content could have well been copied much later from the great reading and then a chain of transmission was attached to make it appear as if it is contemporaneous to it. Thus, it is useless as far as analyzing history.
Peace,
Ayman
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i am studying this scripture 10 years now and i know arabic better than maybe 90% participants of this forum and it still doesnt help... still theres no answers to many questions...are we sure this scripture is complete....of course maybe we or me are blind....maybe my heart is zealed cause of some misbehaviour??!!
Hello Zlatan,
Just a quick question are you a native Arabic speaker? (pardon my ignorance)
Regards,
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Godbless,
So now you are blaming us for fractions and saying that they are OURS!
Instead of blaming "our modern concept" of fractions, please blame your faulty understanding of the word "shahr". Fractions is not a "modern concept of math" as you claim. In fact fractions are used in many instances of the great reading so the Arabs undubiously knew about fractions.
Wow Ayman, your extreme thinking definitely clouds your ability to understand what I am saying, as well as us coming to any common understanding.
I never said that fractions are ours. All that I said is that a half of a month or a sixth of a month doesn't count as a month. It never has and it never will. I know that you are caught up in the way that we express the quantities that include fractions instead of what these quantities really are.
We say 6 and a half months but there is really no such thing if you think hard about it. There are six months and a half of a month. A fraction of a month is not a month. We express it in the way that we do because it makes it simpler for us to reckon exactly. However if we are literally counting days we cannot count hours, which can be expressed as a half of a day or a sixth of a day. And if we are counting months we cannot count days, which can be expressed using terms like a half of a month or a sixth of a month. If the Koran didn't say 'and 5 days' after it said that the count of months is 12 there is nothing wrong with that because 5 days isn't a month, whether you say 'sixth of a month' or '5 days.' If God wanted to add 'and a sixth' or 'and five days' that would have been fine also, but it is an addition onto the count of months, which is twelve. But we can figure that our on our own and see that the count of months is and always will be twelve, twelve 30 day periods, and that deducing through the Koran that Ramadan begins when Sirius rises with the sun which coincides with the summer sostice, there are 5 days left that do not belong to any particular month, and nor do they have to.When we say 12 1/6 months that is just a form of expressing the real reality of 12 months and 5 days. The fraction is real but the expression is ours and the reality is that there are only 12 months and that a sixth of a month is not really a month no matter how we phrase it.
As for your bias about the hadeeth it seems to be a sickness to me, or maybe more a long the lines of an unjust hatred and bias. From my classes at the University of Penn I learned that there are alot of histories based on hearsay or oral stories. As well, anonymous texts whether they can be carbon dated or not are still anonymous and could have been written by anyone making them more unreliable that oral stories that at least profess their origins step by step.
I know the faults of the Hadeeth but they are not as drastic as you would like to make them. The Koran says don't let your hatred of others, in this case the hadeeth compilers and narrators, keep you from being just (5. I think you should heed these words.
Your are letting your hatred carry you away from being just.Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Wow Ayman, your extreme thinking definitely clouds your ability to understand what I am saying, as well as us coming to any common understanding.
I am not interested in a common understanding that is based on falsehood. I am only interested in the truth. The truth of the matter is that there are 12 1/6 Anwar months in a year NEVER 12. It is not my problem that you can't grasp this simple fact.
I never said that fractions are ours.
Yes you did my friend. Here is what you said "In our modern concept of math we say 1 1/2 days and 6 1/2 oranges."
All that I said is that a half of a month or a sixth of a month doesn't count as a month.
You are stating the obvious fact that all elementary school students know. Yet you are unable to apply this simple fact to the count of Anwar months in a year. The count will be 12 1/6 Anwar months NEVER will it be 12 Anwar months.
It never has and it never will. I know that you are caught up in the way that we express the quantities that include fractions instead of what these quantities really are.
According to you we should all forget about fractions because they are not 'real'. Anwar, you are arguing about obvious facts for no reason other than to advance your Anwar months.
We say 6 and a half months but there is really no such thing if you think hard about it.
Wow there are really no fractions. This is news to me.
There are six months and a half of a month.
So let me get this straight you are saying "there is really no six and half months but there are six months and half a month". Next time someone asks me to meet him after a month and a half, I will tell him no I will meet him after a month and one half month because there is no such thing as a month and a half. )
I am sorry to dissapoint you Anwar but a month and a half and a month and a half of a month are EXACTLY the same thing. I can't believe that you are arguing this obvious fact that even a six year old elementary school student knows.
If your theory was correct then The God would have said
"Inna 3iddat al-shuhur 3inda Allah ithna 3ashr wa sudus shahr..."
"Indeed the count of "al-shuhur" at The God is twelve and a sixth "shahr"..."Or if it makes you feel better
"Inna 3iddat al-shuhur 3inda Allah ithna 3ashr shahr wa sudus shahr..."
"Indeed the count of "al-shuhur" at The God is twelve "shahr" and a sixth "shahr"..."A fraction of a month is not a month. We express it in the way that we do because it makes it simpler for us to reckon exactly. However if we are literally counting days we cannot count hours, which can be expressed as a half of a day or a sixth of a day. And if we are counting months we cannot count days, which can be expressed using terms like a half of a month or a sixth of a month.
So why are you saying "half a month' if such term is not "reality" as you said earlier? )
If the Koran didn't say 'and 5 days' after it said that the count of months is 12 there is nothing wrong with that because 5 days isn't a month, whether you say 'sixth of a month' or '5 days.' If God wanted to add 'and a sixth' or 'and five days' that would have been fine also, but it is an addition onto the count of months, which is twelve.
Yes it would have been fine because fractions are real. It is good that you finally acknowledge that.
But we can figure that our on our own and see that the count of months is and always will be twelve, twelve 30 day periods,
Obviously you can't figure it on your own. Since the year doesn't have 12 Anwar months/30 day periods. It has 12 1/6.
and that deducing through the Koran that Ramadan begins when Sirius rises with the sun which coincides with the summer sostice, there are 5 days left that do not belong to any particular month, and nor do they have to.
There is nothing that says that the year begins when Sirius rises. There is absolutely no relationship in the great reading between Sirius and Ramadan so this is baseless conjecture.
When we say 12 1/6 months that is just a form of expressing the real reality of 12 months and 5 days.
Wow 12 1/6 months is a way of expressing the "real reality". What happened to you not liking "the way that we express the quantities that include fractions instead of what these quantities really are?"
I am sorry but your arguments are not making much sense (even to you as evident from your inconsistencies).
The fraction is real but the expression is ours and the reality is that there are only 12 months and that a sixth of a month is not really a month no matter how we phrase it.
I am gald that you acknowledge again that the fraction is real after you earlier nonsense of it not being real.
Everybody knows that one month is not 6 months in the same exact way that a sixth of a month is not a month. This is no reason not to count it.
If you want to talk seriously about phrasing and communication then if you tell anyone in the world to meet you in 12 Anwar months and you use your logic, you would miss each other by a sixth of an Anwar month. This is the reality of phrasing and communication.
As for your bias about the hadeeth it seems to be a sickness to me, or maybe more a long the lines of an unjust hatred and bias. From my classes at the University of Penn I learned that there are alot of histories based on hearsay or oral stories. As well, anonymous texts whether they can be carbon dated or not are still anonymous and could have been written by anyone making them more unreliable that oral stories that at least profess their origins step by step.
Not everything that they teach at the University of Penn is true. If they didn't teach you about the difference between evidence and hearsay then perhaps you should consider bringing it up to your instructor.
I know the faults of the Hadeeth but they are not as drastic as you would like to make them. The Koran says don't let your hatred of others, in this case the hadeeth compilers and narrators, keep you from being just (5. I think you should heed these words.
Your are letting your hatred carry you away from being just.Don't get all fuzzy feely on me. This is not about love and hate. It is about the truth. Here is the truth
- There are 12 1/6 Anwar months/30 day periods in a year
- Even according to the hearsay reports "shahr" doesn't mean 30 day period
- No calendar system ever existed or will ever exist that has constant 30 day periods
You can research this at Penn or ask your instructor if you don't believe me that the above is true.
Peace,
Ayman
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Wow, Ayman. I read your posts and I see how you try to make what i say inconsistent, how you refuse to understand what I am saying and how your tone is hostile and overly rejective.
It seems that it doesn't matter how I say it you will refuse to acknowledge what I am saying.
progod wrote
I never said that fractions are ours.Yes you did my friend. Here is what you said "In our modern concept of math we say 1 1/2 days and 6 1/2 oranges."
Is that me saying that fractions are our inventions? Or is that me saying that our modern concept of math says 1 1/2 days when really there is only one day and a half of a day. The fact that we express the half a day as a day is our way of expressing 1 day and a half a day. I never said the fractions were our inventions. If you can't see that then you should seriously question the way you are reading and understanding my posts. Maybe you should read them twice, carefully and without bias before you respond.
progod wrote
All that I said is that a half of a month or a sixth of a month doesn't count as a month.You are stating the obvious fact that all elementary school students know. Yet you are unable to apply this simple fact to the count of Anwar months in a year. The count will be 12 1/6 Anwar months NEVER will it be 12 Anwar months.
If that is elemetary than why can't you acknowledge that there is really no such thing as 12 1/6 months, but really 12 months and a sixth of a month. The fraction is real, it is 1/6 and it is not a month and in a count of months it should not be included. You stated that this is a fact that elementary school students know make you look stupid because you don't understand the concept when it is applied.
progod wrote
There are six months and a half of a month.So let me get this straight you are saying "there is really no six and half months but there are six months and half a month". Next time someone asks me to meet him after a month and a half, I will tell him no I will meet him after a month and one half month because there is no such thing as a month and a half.
Again you are demonstrating how you don't understand what I am saying. I specifically said that saying 6 1/2 months is an EXPRESSION, like an IDIOM. It communicates a reality but that way that it is said does not reflect reality. If you don't get this I will understand, even though I will be dissapointed. It's like when you say when the 'stuff hits the fan' you don't literally mean that, it is an expression, that means 'when there is trouble.' Equally saying 6 1/2 months doesn't mean that there is actually a count of 6 1/2 months, it communicating a count of 6 months and a half a month. It is an EXPRESSION an IDIOM. Do you understand that? So you don't have to say it in a more literal way necessarily, just understand that it is an expression that is not literal.
I am sorry to dissapoint you Anwar but a month and a half and a month and a half of a month are EXACTLY the same thing. I can't believe that you are arguing this obvious fact that even a six year old elementary school student knows.
I am sorry that you understand the concept but not the application. OF course they are the same. I never said they are not. I hope you understood what I am saying in the above.
If your theory was correct then The God would have said
"Inna 3iddat al-shuhur 3inda Allah ithna 3ashr wa sudus shahr..."
"Indeed the count of "al-shuhur" at The God is twelve and a sixth "shahr"..."Or if it makes you feel better
"Inna 3iddat al-shuhur 3inda Allah ithna 3ashr shahr wa sudus shahr..."
"Indeed the count of "al-shuhur" at The God is twelve "shahr" and a sixth "shahr"..."Not true. Because like I said what is said is 'the count of months . . ' And the count of months is 12 whether a half of a month comes after that or or it is 12 months exactly. The statement is still true. I know you have an idea that the Koran has to map out every single thing and has to go beyond exactness, but the statement is still true. The count of months is 12 even in 360 days. Count the months, count the 30 day periods in a period of 365 days and tell me how many there are.
There are 12 30 day periods, 12 months. And 5 days left, which is a sixth of a month but can't be counted in 'the count of months' 'iddatusha-hr' because it is not a month. Saying that the count of months is 12 1/6 is an algorithm, an expression for expressing everying in months even if 1/6 of a month is not a month. That is a human form of expression, the fractions are not our invention, and I never said that they were.
So why are you saying "half a month' if such term is not "reality" as you said earlier?
I never said that fractions are not reality. I said that our expressions such as '2 and a half MONTHS' are idioms not reflective of reality, although they communicate a reality.
Obviously you can't figure it on your own. Since the year doesn't have 12 Anwar months/30 day periods. It has 12 1/6.
I have figured it out. The year does have a count 12 Anwar month. If you can count more than 12 30 day periods in a period of 365 days please inform me of your count. The 1/6 of a month is not a month so you can't count that in A COUNT OF MONTHS. Do you get it yet?
Look at Chpt 53. It begins by mentioning 'the star.' The only star that is mentioned in the chapter is Sirius. That is the star that is meant in the beginning if one considers that the Koran doesn't follow all of the modern rules of literature but includes rules of literature that are NOW classified and used only in poetry. Whereas rules that separate poetry from other literature is a recent, modern phenomenon.
What happened to you not liking "the way that we express the quantities that include fractions instead of what these quantities really are?"
When did I say that I didn't like it. I never talked about liking it or not liking it. I'm just stating what it is. There are no value judgements being made here. So please don't put them in my mouth or assume that I"m making them.
Not everything that they teach at the University of Penn is true. If they didn't teach you about the difference between evidence and hearsay then perhaps you should consider bringing it up to your instructor.
Thank you for reminding me of that. I've experienced that personally. Have you had the same experience there? Maybe we can relate on some issues about the content of the lectures given by professors that we have both had there. You know, classes that we have shared. roll
Don't get all fuzzy feely on me. This is not about love and hate. It is about the truth. Here is the truth
- There are 12 1/6 Anwar months/30 day periods in a year
- Even according to the hearsay reports "shahr" doesn't mean 30 day period
- No calendar system ever existed or will ever exist that has constant 30 day periods
You can research this at Penn or ask your instructor if you don't believe me that the above is true.
Peace,
Ayman
Hmmmm. Fuzzy feely?
Well, I think I demonstrated to you that implication of the Koran that a month is 30 days. And I'm sure that you can find this in Lane's lexicon as well. But the implication of the Koran is enough. The Koran is full of passages that can contradict if that is what the reader WANTS to read. But the consistency is there. You have two options and you choose to look at the possible inconsistency despite the fact that the consistency is offered to you.As for your last comment. . . Please!!!
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Wow, Ayman. I read your posts and I see how you try to make what i say inconsistent, how you refuse to understand what I am saying and how your tone is hostile and overly rejective.
I simply quoted what you said. If it comes across as inconsistent then don't blame me.
It seems that it doesn't matter how I say it you will refuse to acknowledge what I am saying.
Yes, I refuse to acknowledge that fractions are not to be counted.
I also refuse to acknowledge that a year has, has ever had, or will ever have 12 Anwar months/30 day periods. If you disagree then please do your homework and show me a single calendar in history that had constant 30 day periods.
Also, you are conveniently silent on what you are doing with the extra 5 days. Do you take a vacation ang go to Florida and pretend that they don't exist? )
Is that me saying that fractions are our inventions? Or is that me saying that our modern concept of math says 1 1/2 days when really there is only one day and a half of a day.
OK. If expressing it this way makes you feel better then there is 12 Anwar months and a sixth Anwar month in a year. There is NEVER just 12 Anwar months.
The fact that we express the half a day as a day is our way of expressing 1 day and a half a day. I never said the fractions were our inventions. If you can't see that then you should seriously question the way you are reading and understanding my posts. Maybe you should read them twice, carefully and without bias before you respond.
So why do you act as if pre-quranic Arabs didn't know about fractions and hence The God didn't count them?
If that is elemetary than why can't you acknowledge that there is really no such thing as 12 1/6 months, but really 12 months and a sixth of a month.
OK. As I said, if expressing it this way makes you feel better then there is 12 Anwar months and a sixth Anwar month in a year. There is NEVER just 12 Anwar months. So Anwar months cannot be what 936 is talking about. This is obvious.
The fraction is real, it is 1/6 and it is not a month and in a count of months it should not be included.
No it should be included as 1/6 of a month. If we apply your logic then fractions will never be included in any count of anything. roll
Again you are demonstrating how you don't understand what I am saying. I specifically said that saying 6 1/2 months is an EXPRESSION, like an IDIOM. It communicates a reality but that way that it is said does not reflect reality. If you don't get this I will understand, even though I will be dissapointed. It's like when you say when the 'stuff hits the fan' you don't literally mean that, it is an expression, that means 'when there is trouble.' Equally saying 6 1/2 months doesn't mean that there is actually a count of 6 1/2 months, it communicating a count of 6 months and a half a month. It is an EXPRESSION an IDIOM. Do you understand that? So you don't have to say it in a more literal way necessarily, just understand that it is an expression that is not literal.
By your standard all of mathematics is idioms. We don't really pile "months" on top of each other and add them up like we do with physical apples and oranges. If we use your same logic then adding months is an idiom exactly like adding a sixth of a month.
Not true. Because like I said what is said is 'the count of months . . ' And the count of months is 12 whether a half of a month comes after that or or it is 12 months exactly.
What is logically or gramatically not true with saying
"Indeed the count of "al-shuhur" at The God is twelve "shahr" and a sixth "shahr"..."
If like you we wrongly assume that "shahr" means "30 day period" then at least this is more true then your musings.
The statement is still true. I know you have an idea that the Koran has to map out every single thing and has to go beyond exactness, but the statement is still true.
So now stating the simple facts is "going beyond exactness". I must say that your standards for exactness are pretty dismal.
I am sure that The God has higher standards than what you believe.
The count of months is 12 even in 360 days. Count the months, count the 30 day periods in a period of 365 days and tell me how many there are.
There are 12 1/6 months. Or if you prefer 12 months and 1/6 month and that is a fact.
There are 12 30 day periods, 12 months. And 5 days left, which is a sixth of a month but can't be counted in 'the count of months' 'iddatusha-hr' because it is not a month.
Again, you are making the nonsensical argument that fractions are not supposed to be counted. This is of course ridiculous to say the least.
What are you doing with those 5 days? Of course you never say.
I have figured it out. The year does have a count 12 Anwar month. If you can count more than 12 30 day periods in a period of 365 days please inform me of your count. The 1/6 of a month is not a month so you can't count that in A COUNT OF MONTHS. Do you get it yet?
The count is 12 Anwar months and a sixth Anwar months because I know about fractions. If I know about fractions then The God certainly knows about them. It seems that you are the only one in the world who thinks that fractions are not to be counted.
Look at Chpt 53. It begins by mentioning 'the star.' The only star that is mentioned in the chapter is Sirius.
Firstly, some sources say that al-shaara is a mountain. Other sources say that it is Venus and not Sirius. Yet other evidence shows that it is the sun. So saying that it is Sirius is not sure to begin with.
Secondly, even assuming that shaara is Sirius this doesn't answer my question. You are evading it because you know that you don't have an answer.
Where does it say in the great reading that Ramadan starts with Sirius?
Where does it say that the year starts with Sirius?
That is the star that is meant in the beginning if one considers that the Koran doesn't follow all of the modern rules of literature but includes rules of literature that are NOW classified and used only in poetry. Whereas rules that separate poetry from other literature is a recent, modern phenomenon.
What rule did you use to read Chapter 53 and conclude that shaara is the start of the year? The words year or month don't even occur in Chapter 53.
I don't think that you can answer because I think that you made that up and you really have no rule that leads you to conclude that shaara denotes the start of the year or the start of ramadan.
Thank you for reminding me of that. I've experienced that personally. Have you had the same experience there? Maybe we can relate on some issues about the content of the lectures given by professors that we have both had there. You know, classes that we have shared. roll
My experience is on both sides of the fence, as a student long time ago and as a teacher more recently. As for Penn, I am sure it is a fine university and I personally have a close colleage who teaches there. I can say that what any good university teaches is critical thinking and focusing more on the "how" (the process) rather than the "what" (the story). If they teach you in any course that hearsay stories is evidence then I am afraid that you are not getting your money's worth for that course.
Hmmmm. Fuzzy feely?
Well, I think I demonstrated to you that implication of the Koran that a month is 30 days.No you never did. You only demosntrated that you will ignore the obvious facts such as that fasting for three days is equivalent to feeding 10 poor (3.33 per day) in 589. Don't you wish that 589 said to feed 3 poor ). You are also ignoring the obvious fact that the year has 12 Anwar monhs and a sixth Anwar month.
And I'm sure that you can find this in Lane's lexicon as well.
I didn't see it in Lane. Nor did I see any Classical Arabic dicitionary claim that "month" means 30 day period. This is just more of your wishful thinking.
But the implication of the Koran is enough. The Koran is full of passages that can contradict if that is what the reader WANTS to read.
There is no contradiction. The contradictions are created by your faulty understanding.
But the consistency is there. You have two options and you choose to look at the possible inconsistency despite the fact that the consistency is offered to you.
I know that the consistency is there. No one was ever able to find any inconsistency in "shahr" meaning "full moon". Even you despite all your rambling never found any inconsistencies. The same cannot be said about "shahr" meaning your imaginary "30 days" month.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam,
Just a remainder from the previous discussions on the meaning of the word shahr
As explained by brother Ayman in Hot/"ramadan" Answer the equivalence between arbaAAati ashhurin/four shahr traditionally translated by four "month" (2226) and three menstruation periods (222 is clear.
If four shahr means four periods, then we should read four menstruation periods in 228.
Three menstruation periods correponds exactly to four shahrshahr1------------shahr2------------shahr3-----------shahr4
----------period 1--------period 2-----------period 3It is logic and without ambiguity
Shahr ramadan in which the Reading was sent down ...(2185) and particularlly during the night of alqadr.
Shahr ramadan = the night of alqadr; a blessed night (443)
It is not a coincidence when the God compares the night of alqadr with one thousand shahr (973).
Thousand shahr are nothing but one thousand night.-
The Night of Destiny is better than one thousand sahr.
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin -
O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola yaskhar qawmun min qawmin AAasa an yakoonoo khayran minhum wala nisaon min nisa-in AAasaan yakunna khayran minhunna wala talmizoo anfusakum walatanabazoo bial-alqabi bi/sa al-ismualfusooqu baAAda al-eemani waman lam yatub faola-ikahumu alththalimoona
The Reading explains itself
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Peace sister Marie,
Thank you for your valuable insight.
Just a remainder from the previous discussions on the meaning of the word shahr
As explained by brother Ayman in Hot/"ramadan" Answer the equivalence between arbaAAati ashhurin/four shahr traditionally translated by four "month" (2226) and three menstruation periods (222 is clear.
If four shahr means four periods, then we should read four menstruation periods in 228.
Three menstruation periods correponds exactly to four shahrshahr1------------shahr2------------shahr3-----------shahr4
----------period 1--------period 2-----------period 3It is logic and without ambiguity )
I agree that it is logic and without ambiguity. However, it is in the way of counting not in the equivalence. 2226 prescribes a waiting period before divorce. 2228 prescribes a waiting period after the divorce. So they don't overlap and correspond to each other as the diagram shows. However, 2226 coveys to us logically and without ambiguity that the way we count "shahr" is like the way we count "mensturation". They are both cyclical events (not a continuous time period).
Shahr ramadan in which the Reading was sent down ...(2185) and particularlly during the night of alqadr.
Shahr ramadan = the night of alqadr; a blessed night (443)
It is not a coincidence when the God compares the night of alqadr with one thousand shahr (973).
Thousand shahr are nothing but one thousand night.-
The Night of Destiny is better than one thousand sahr.
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin -
O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola yaskhar qawmun min qawmin AAasa an yakoonoo khayran minhum wala nisaon min nisa-in AAasaan yakunna khayran minhunna wala talmizoo anfusakum walatanabazoo bial-alqabi bi/sa al-ismualfusooqu baAAda al-eemani waman lam yatub faola-ikahumu alththalimoona
The Reading explains itself )
This is brilliant sister. Thank you for sharing this additional evidence and logical explanation. I look forward for us to witness the scorching full-moon/night of measure, which is only a few weeks away from now. )
Paix and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman
2226 prescribes a waiting period before divorce. 2228 prescribes a waiting period after the divorce.
You are right.
Is it a coincidence that we are command to wait four full moon and three menstruation periods before and after the divorce respectively?Ideed two full moons don't overlap one menstruation period, in my last postI spoke about the equivalence only because during three menstruation periods, one can observe four full moon.
I look forward for us to witness the scorching full-moon/night of measure, which is only a few weeks away from now. )
I'm waiting too to observe it Inchallah )
PS
This is a confidence Since my childhood until 3 years ago I always speak about the shahr when the moon is full in the sky. When I discover the genuine islam, I changed my mind ? about this after a discussion with a freind of mine.
Now, praise to the God, my first understanding seems logic )Paix
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Peace all,
Another detail which can bring some idea
After witnessing the full moon, it withdraws itself progressively from the the sun light and the moon becomes like an old curved sheath (3639), in other word the moon is in darkness.
In the same way for the daylight regarding the night..-
So when the restricted full moons are withdrawn, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun -
And a Sign for them is the night. We withdraw from it the day, and behold, they are in darkness.
Waayatun lahumu allaylu naslakhu minhu alnnahara fa-itha hum muthlimoona
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Greetings with peace,
Hmm... How are the full moons restricted? (And also restricted full moons imply that there are unrestricted full moons. What to make of this?)
Anwar Azim
Peace all,
95. So when the restricted full moons are withdrawn, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun -
Salam Anwar Azim,
Hmm... How are the full moons restricted? (And also restricted full moons imply that there are unrestricted full moons. What to make of this?)
I'm not sure if I get what you mean but 936 can answer your question
- The count of the full moons with God is twelve fullmoon in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
A. Shabir
936 Allah has ordained twelve months in one year. This has been Allah?s Ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of these Months are Sacred, forbidden for all warfare. (Mankind, through international treaties, must agree to shun all kind of warfare during these four months. This will give them a cooling off period that sense may prevail over emotions). This is the Firm Religion, the right way. So, do not wrong yourselves by fighting during the Sacred Months. However, you may fight the idolaters in any or all these months if they fight against you in any or all of them (2194). And know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (Four Sacred Months (2194), (91-5)).I understand that there is four restricted full moons and the other full moon there is no restriction about the warfare and the land hunt, IMO.
The God knows best
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Peace sister Marie,
Another detail which can bring some idea
After witnessing the full moon, it withdraws itself progressively from the the sun light and the moon becomes like an old curved sheath (3639), in other word the moon is in darkness.
In the same way for the daylight regarding the night..-
So when the restricted full moons are withdrawn, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun -
And a Sign for them is the night. We withdraw from it the day, and behold, they are in darkness.
Waayatun lahumu allaylu naslakhu minhu alnnahara fa-itha hum muthlimoona
This is great. Thank you for sharing this excellent observation.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Marie,
Thanks for your kind response. I think I got the sense.
Now, other questions pop up. By fullmoon, I suppose a period of time is implied, as can be sensed in "so do not wrong yourselves in them" (the key phrase is "in them"). How long is that precisely? And what about the period between one fullmoon to another? Is that restricted too?
Anwar Azim
Salam Anwar Azim,
Hmm... How are the full moons restricted? (And also restricted full moons imply that there are unrestricted full moons. What to make of this?)
I'm not sure if I get what you mean but 936 can answer your question
- The count of the full moons with God is twelve fullmoon in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
A. Shabir
936 Allah has ordained twelve months in one year. This has been Allah?s Ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of these Months are Sacred, forbidden for all warfare. (Mankind, through international treaties, must agree to shun all kind of warfare during these four months. This will give them a cooling off period that sense may prevail over emotions). This is the Firm Religion, the right way. So, do not wrong yourselves by fighting during the Sacred Months. However, you may fight the idolaters in any or all these months if they fight against you in any or all of them (2194). And know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (Four Sacred Months (2194), (91-5)).I understand that there is four restricted full moons and the other full moon there is no restriction about the warfare and the land hunt, IMO.
The God knows best
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Peace Anwar,
Now, other questions pop up. By fullmoon, I suppose a period of time is implied, as can be sensed in "so do not wrong yourselves in them" (the key phrase is "in them"). How long is that precisely? And what about the period between one fullmoon to another? Is that restricted too?
I think that the way mensturations and full-moons are counted is the same.
In 2228, divorced women are to wait for 3 menturations (they are "restricted" from marriage during that period). Each mensturation is going to last for a certain number of days that is a little different from one woman to another. Also the time between mensturations is going to be different from one woman to another. Let's take an example. Suppose a divorced woman's mensturation lasts for 5 days and it comes every 28 days. Does this mean that the divorced woman is only restricted to marry during the 5 days when she is having her mensturation or is she also restricted between mensturations until the count of three mensturations passes? Of course she is restricted from marriage the period of mensuration and the period between one mensturation to another. Now replace mensturation with full-moon and you will get the answer to your question.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salam,
- And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.
Walisulaymana alrreeha ghuduwwuha shahrun warawahuha shahrun waasalna lahu AAayna alqitri wamina aljinni manyaAAmalu bayna yadayhi bi-ithni rabbihi waman yazighminhum AAan amrina nuthiqhu min AAathabi alssaAAeeri
"ghuduw" can also mean morning (7205)
I think that "ghuduwwuha" in 3412 means its morning course.
"rawah" occurs after "ghuduw"; one can travel in the morning and comes bak in the evening or in the night (rawah), then we can translate "rawahuha" as its evening/night course."And for Solomon the wind was given, its morning course in a full moon and its evening/night course in a full moon"
It seems coherent regarding the meaning of the word shahr , what do you think?
- And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.
