Takes time to reach God?

[Bender]

+1 to that..

I heard the same argument from a Jewish Rabbi around 15 years ago...
He was trying to explain to me why God is "Echad" and not "Yachid" in Hebrew..

If a Jewish Rabbi said it then it must be true.

[truthseeker11]

Peace LastDay3,

This is called logical fallacy of strawman.

I did not assign to God a portion from its servants, but my concept is a portion of God was assigned to its servants (a portion of God became the creation, not that the creation became God). Nice try but failed miserably. Try as much as you can but you will not be able to falsify 2115. You will always fail miserably. If any verse claims that creation is not a part of God then it contradicts 2115 because God is everywhere. If creation is not part of God then God would be limited and finite because God will end somewhere and creation will begin somewhere. So God will not be everywhere which contradicts with 2115.

Nothing and No one was NEVER and is NEVER and can NEVER be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

Then God will be finite and limited because God will end somewhere and creation will begin somewhere and therefore God will not be everywhere and 2115 will be contradicted and falsified.

Keep trying. You will never, never, never, never, never............. (to infinity) be able to disprove 2115.

Peace

[LastDay3]

Peace LastDay3,

This is called logical fallacy of strawman.

I did not assign to God a portion from its servants, but my concept is
a portion of God was assigned to its servants (a portion of God became the creation, not that the creation became God).

.......................

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

But when/if a "portion" of God became the creation (according to your claim above)
then that whole creation would automatically be (nothing else but absolutely) a "portion" of God, from the very beginning!
I cannot see any other logical conclusion here.

And in QURAN TESTAMENT, it is clearly and unmistakably refuted, here again, thus

==========
15- And they even assigned to HIM a portion/fragment/piece/part (=juzan) of HIS own servants (=e.g.

by mistakenly or wrongfully claiming that
a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of God became the creation
and thereby that whole creation is indeed a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of God, from the very beginning!

Surely, the human being is profoundly unappreciative.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

Because according to QURAN TESTAMENT,

the whole Creation (i.e. =Heavens and Earth and everything between them)
was/is NEVER a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH;

but the whole Creation (i.e. =Heavens and Earth and everything between them)
was/is ABSOLUTELY and ONLY a "servant" of AL-LAH, from the very Beginning,
here again thus

==========
65- HE is the "LORD" (="RABB") of the Heavens and the Earth and everything between them.

(i.e. =the Heavens and the Earth and everything between them is
thus ABSOLUTELY and ONLY a "Servant" (="Abd") of HIM, from the very Beginning.)

So you shall serve HIM and be patient in HIS service.
Do you know anything/anyone that is like HIM? (i.e. =Can anything/anyone be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH?

NEVER and in NO WAY, at all = please, clearly and unmistakably see it again in Chapter/Verse No. 43/15 above,
in the first place.)

QURAN TESTAMENT 19/65

Try as much as you can but you will not be able to falsify 2115. You will always fail miserably.

If any verse claims that creation is not a part of God then it contradicts 2115 because God is everywhere.

If creation is not part of God then God would be limited and finite because God will end somewhere and creation will begin somewhere.

So God will not be everywhere which contradicts with 2115.
..............

Dear brother/friend, before hastily jumping into wrong/mistaken conclusions based on wrong/mistaken understandings of other Verses,
hear this

Yes, first of all, we can absolutely see that
this Verse above (=43/15) most clearly and unmistakably claims that

Creation was/is NEVER a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

and it does NOT contradict with this Verse (=2/115) at all,
because AL-LAH is absolutely Everywhere with HIS Limitless & Infinite Powers,
as clearly emphasized here

=================================
And the exact similar/same Understanding must absolutely be valid
for all of these Allegorical Terms in QURAN TESTAMENT, here

"Face of AL-LAH"
(=i.e. the Absolute/Infinite Seeing & Hearing & Controlling & Governing "Power of AL-LAH" =13/22 & ......

"Hands of AL-LAH"
(=i.e. the Absolute/Infinite Granting & Helping "Power of AL-LAH" =5/64 & ......

"Eyes of AL-LAH"
(=i.e. the Absolute/Infinite Watching & Guarding "Power of AL-LAH" =20/39 & ......

In any of these Allegorical Terms above
the Individual/Personal "Presence of AL-LAH" is Not indicated therein,

because again, HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s,
all Things whatsoever we can ever imagine above us, that only Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) and all those Angels with Him can reach there
in fifty-thousand years,
as we have clearly witnessed it in this Verse, in the first place =70/4
in my previous post above).

Finally, I believe, this is one of the most Critical and Important Issue in the whole Realm of Religion,
because how and in what manner we believe in AL-LAH
may change our whole perspective, and even our whole personality, inside and out,

because --(in my Understanding,
absolutely mistakenly and/or wrongfully)-- believing that

whole creation is a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of God, from the very beginning!

may cause all kind of ill, or sick, or even evil effects and consequences
that may eventually and eternally harm any human-being --in all physical and mental and intellectual aspects-- inside and out
because these "Messiah Dajjal" (="Anti Christ") ideologies
may totally deceive them and take them under their full control,
as I urgently explained and strongly emphasized in my previous post above

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393331#msg393331

So finally, I sincerely and wholeheartedly invite you, dear brother/friend TruthSeeker11,
and all honest and sincere TruthSeekers, worldwide,
to clearly and unmistakably see the Fact that

** the whole Creation, from the very beginning,
was NEVER and is NEVER and can NEVER be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

** because our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s,
all Things whatsoever we can ever imagine above us, that only Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) and all those Angels with Him can reach there
in fifty-thousand years,
as we have clearly witnessed it in this Verse, in the first place =70/4
in my previous post above).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393331#msg393331

** Our Lord AL-LAH (=HIS Individual/Personal Presence at HIS Highest Station above =70/4,
and HIS Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy) which shines absolutely unto Everywhere/Everything here (=24/35)
from HIS Highest Station above =70/4,

is absolutely Different/Separate/Distinct from all Things we can ever imagine,
and can Never be detected by Humans (with no technological devices whatsoever) here =6/103.

(*even that universal "dark energy" ---which can never be compared to our LORD's Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy)---
cannot be detected up to now (with no technological devices whatsoever) here yet, ..............

Only those who commemorate AL-LAH wholeheartedly and constantly may be granted by AL-LAH
with HIS Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy) to shine upon them and absolutely surround/permeate them
(=24/35) from HIS Highest Station above =70/4

to give them absolute Happiness & Serenity & Joy & Security (=10/62-64),
Constantly, here and in the Hereafter, forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=24/35-3

Remain in peace/salaam.

[imrankhawaja]

about 2 115 . lets have clear look into it... and after very next verse there is something more to ponder about... lets play guys...

2115 To God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence./there is God's countenance/there is the face(mathphorically) of God ...God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

2116 But they say, ?God has begotten a son!? Glorified is He! Never! Unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and earth. All things and beings in the Universe are subservient/humble/dutiful to Him.

its like a crystal clear for the people who possess intelligence what quran is talking about here...

clearly in summary to God belong whatever is in the heaven and earth.. he did not begot a son of any inherent as a part ... annd all things to him are submitted according to the laws he design for them...

but again for people who can claim siruis star was inhabited with human aliens they can understand this verse whatever they like to !

peace and God bless you all...

[truthseeker11]

Peace all,

LastDay3's post has logical fallacies of false premise and unwarranted assumption. It is futile discussing with someone who deliberately misinterprets and lies about the book ("wajh" misinterpreted as "power&quot and then bases discussion on the misinterpretation and lie.

Anyone can see that LastDay3 failed miserably to disprove 2115 yet again despite such a long post. I thank him though for drawing attention to 6103 which also proves the Creator is infinite and proves all creation has to be a part of the infinite Creator.

He can keep trying to cover up the truth, but he will fail miserably again and again.No one will ever be able to prove the Creator is finite and limited.

Per 2115 the Creator is everywhere so the Creator is infinite. The creation has to be a part of the infinite Creator because if creation is separate from the Creator then the Creator will end somewhere and creation will begin somewhere and the Creator will not be everywhere and 2115 will be falsified. Per 2115 the Creator is everywhere so the creation is a part of the infinite Creator.

6103 also proves the Creator is infinite so creation has to be a part of the infinite Creator.

2435 also proves all creation is made up of noor of the infinite Creator.

A part can never be comparable to the whole and the whole can never be comparable to its part.

Anything that contradicts with the fact that the Creator is infinite and everywhere as per 2115 cannot be the truth. So either it is mistranslation or misinterpretation or is evidence of possible tampering. Sanaa manuscripts are indisputable archeological evidence of possible tampering with the original text of the quran.

THERE IS NO ESCAPE FROM THE REALITY OF INFINITE CREATOR.

There is nothing other than the one infinite Creator in reality. Claiming the creation is separate from the Creator is accepting there is something other than the Creator in reality, which is setting up partners with the Creator, which contradicts with 1121. It also makes the Creator finite and limited which contradicts with 2115 and 6103. It also goes against 2435.

I will disregard those who deliberately misinterpret quranic words to lie about the infinite Creator to deceive, mislead and misguide others.

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

I refuse to take part in circular discussions so no further posts from me on this topic. Feel free to discard my understanding if it does not resonate with you.

Peace

[hawk99]

Peace

For those who say Allah is everywhere do you mean physically,
as physically a part of everything?

pr

[imrankhawaja]

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

exactly.... i m 100 agree...

pr

[imrankhawaja]

Peace

For those who say Allah is everywhere do you mean physically,
as physically a part of everything?

pr

nope they have no idea what God is , lol

God is not a thing

infact whatever understanding anybody can get is nothinng more than material based idea... even in the sense of methaphorical idea , it will b jjust and idea nothing reality.... moses try to see reality but God clearly told to him moses u cannot see me... and he understnd after that...lol

i hope people will get understand too... no image can grasp the image of God, nothinng can be compared to God... nothing is equal/similar to God...

hail

[LastDay3]

.............

Anything that contradicts with the fact that the Creator is infinite and everywhere as per 2115 cannot be the truth.

So either it is mistranslation or misinterpretation or is evidence of possible tampering.

Sanaa manuscripts are indisputable archeological evidence of possible tampering with the original text of the quran.

THERE IS NO ESCAPE FROM THE REALITY OF INFINITE CREATOR.

.............

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

Your statements above is an enough evidence
and sincerely should also be a good "wake up call" for you, dear Brother/Friend,
because it seems to me that you got yourself (emotionally/mentally/fanatically) deeply plunged
in this utterly mistaken/wrongful idea

"the whole creation Must be a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD!"

to the point that even when/if you clearly see with your own eyes that
QURAN TESTAMENT conclusively and unmistakably refutes that utterly mistaken/wrongful idea above,
and teaches us The Absolute Truth, also in this respect, Perfectly,
here

====================================
** the whole Creation, from the very beginning,
was NEVER and is NEVER and can NEVER be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

** because our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s,
all Things whatsoever we can ever imagine above us,
as we have clearly witnessed it in this Verse, in the first place

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

in my previous post above).

you still cannot refute such baseless satanic speculations & fantasies
(i.e. =galactic federation, reptilian race, 3rd density human aliens in sirius, etc.)
I am a little bit familiar with such speculations & fantasies
because I have beloved --but unfortunately, also pretty "naive" in this respect hypno-- friends
who are deeply plunged into it,

---

*Honestly, I can clearly see that such satanic speculations and fantasies
are perfectly foretold in QURAN TESTAMENT here (=6/112-113)
and our Lord AL-LAH also perfectly teaches us how to clearly and
decisively refute it, again here (=6/114).

---

but you think that QURAN may have been tampered with, because it does Not support
but fundamentally and totally Refutes this satanic idea/agenda above

"the whole creation Must be a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD!"

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

So, I sincerely and wholeheartedly recommend you, my dear Fellow/Friend, TruthSeeker11,
to clearly see all of these MAGNIFICENT EVIDENCE & PROOFS here, first of all

Perfectly "114" Chapters & "6346" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (1)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf042.html

Perfectly "114" Chapters & "6346" Verses in total in QURAN TESTAMENT =78/29 (2)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf043.html

Precisely "112" + "2" Basmalahs in/of QURAN TESTAMENT =7829 (1)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf045.html

Precisely "112" + "2" Basmalahs in/of QURAN TESTAMENT =7829 (2)
http//www.19covenant19.com/mucize_detay_idf046.html

to clearly understand that
we thus absolutely have a GOLDEN TEXT (=QURAN TESTAMENT) above, in this Final Age/Millennium now,
which can clearly be witnessed by all Humanity, generation after generation, to the End of the World,
to clearly and unmistakably understand that

Absolutely and Only AL-LAH can be its Author and Protector (=17/88 & 85/21-22), for all Eternity.

Thereby, when/if we wholeheartedly repent and return to our Lord AL-LAH,
HE may Guide us into HIS Perfect Way by HIS

Most Superb and Matchless Heavenly TEXT (=QURAN TESTAMENT) above, (=5/16)

and can grant unto each and everyone of us, my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11,
Eternal Salvation and Everlasting Joy & Happiness, forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=7/42-43)

Remain in peace/salaam.

[LastDay3]

Salaam/Peace to All,

finally, here we should absolutely see and clearly understand the Great Wisdom of AL-LAH
in Creating everything

absolutely Not as a Partner (=Shareek) to HIMSELF (=6/163),

and

absolutely Not as a Portion/Fragment/Piece/Part (=Juzan) of HIMSELF (=43/15).

Therefore, I strongly believe that
our Lord AL-LAH thus creates everything

--(not "inside" but)-- absolutely "outside" of HIS Individual/Personal Presence (=HE is, of course,
Absolutely Capable of Creating whatever HE wills "outside" of HIS Individual/Personal Presence =36/79, 82-83)---
in order Not to make them as

Partner (=Shareek) to HIMSELF (=6/163),

and

Portion/Fragment/Piece/Part (=Juzan) of HIMSELF (=43/15).

And again, also and especially for this reason, when HE creates the Heavens and the Earth and everything between them,
HE also creates, in the first place, that immense absolute void (in which there is absolutely no matter/energy,
even no quantum fluctuations, etc. = absolute nothingness therein)
and places this immense absolute void between HIS Individual/Personal Presence and HIS creation (=i.e. all Heavens
and the Earth and everything between them),
that no one can NEVER claim that

"the whole creation Must be a partner (=Shareek) of GOD!" (=6/163)

"the whole creation Must be a portion/fragment/piece/part (=Juzan) of GOD!" (=43/15)

====================
4- the Angels and the Spirit (=i.e. Gabriel, =16/102) ascend to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a day whose length/measure is fifty thousand years.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

So, all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) perfectly leading them above
--(ascending unimaginably much faster than speed of Light)--

thus after passing beyond all boundaries (=i.e. boundaries of all Heavens and the Earth and everything between them)
must continue thereafter to go (through that immense absolute void above wherein there is absolutely no matter/energy,
even no quantum fluctuations, etc. = absolute nothingness therein)
at least for a fifty thousand years more (in our calculation here)
--(again ascending unimaginably much faster than speed of Light therein)--

finally, to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH at the end of their magnificent Ascent above.

So that we may clearly and unmistakably understand that
our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence is
absolutely above and beyond all Heavens and the Earth and everything between them,
above us,

(=i.e. HE is Individually/Personally thus absolutely Separate/Distinct above and beyond all HIS Creation);

and thereby, most importantly, it means
No one and Nothing was never and is never and can never be a "portion/share/part/piece" of our Lord AL-LAH,
because HE was-is Individually/Personally thus absolutely Separate/Distinct above and beyond all HIS Creation,
from the very Beginning, here

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4 & 43/15)

And at the same time, our Lord AL-LAH clearly and unmistakably informs us about

HIS Limitless & Infinite Powers over all of HIS Creation (=i.e. all Heavens and the Earth and everything between them),
at any moment, at any place, (=2/115 & 57/4 & 58/7 & ......),

and so, when/if HE wills to annihilate all of HIS Creation (=i.e. all Heavens and the Earth and everything between them),
HE Himself does Not lose a thing of HIS Individual/Personal Presence & Existence, (=28/88)
because all of HIS Creation (=i.e. all Heavens and the Earth and everything between them),

was not and is not and can not be a "portion/share/part/piece" of our Lord AL-LAH,

because HE was-is Individually/Personally thus absolutely Separate/Distinct above and beyond all HIS Creation,
from the very Beginning, again here

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4 & 43/15) (=28/88)

But when Iblees and those Jinn Satans under his Command thus deceive the people
with such baseless speculations and fantasies, as clearly explained here (=6/112-113),
and thus made them --mistakenly/wrongfully-- believe that

"the whole creation Must be a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD,
from the very Beginnning!"

then all kinds of ill, or sick, or evil effects and consequences
follow it, and it may eventually and eternally harm any human-being --in all physical and mental and intellectual aspects-- inside and out
because these "Messiah Dajjal" (="Anti Christ") ideologies
may totally deceive them and take them under their full control,
as I urgently explained and strongly emphasized in my previous post above

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393331#msg393331

because after making people --mistakenly/wrongfully-- believe that

"the whole creation Must be a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD,
from the very Beginning!"

then Iblees and those Jinn Satans under his Command (=6/112-113),
in the second step,

=can make them easily prostrate before idols/statues (=claiming that it is a totally "innocent & perfect" form of worship
because "those idols/statues are not foreigners
but they are already a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD HIMSELF!" So, "They are perfect Manifestations of GOD HIMSELF!"
(*how many generations have been deceived in this way, in the history of Humankind =36/60-62)

=can make them easily prostrate before birds/animals (=claiming that it is a totally "innocent & perfect" form of worship
because "those birds/animals are not foreigners
but they are already a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD HIMSELF!" So, "They are perfect Manifestations of GOD HIMSELF!"
(*how many generations have been deceived in this way, in the history of Humankind =36/60-62
how about numerous Hindus in present time?)

=can make them easily prostrate before Sun/Stars/Moon (=claiming that it is a totally "innocent & perfect" form of worship
because "those Sun/Stars/Moon are not foreigners
but they are already a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD HIMSELF!" So, "They are perfect Manifestations of GOD HIMSELF!"
(*how many generations have been deceived in this way, in the history of Humankind =36/60-62)

and finally, --(as the Worst Thing, which could potentially destroy all humanity,
because it caused in the past and may always cause again
"bloody wars" and "utter persecution and murder" of millions of innocent human-beings)--

=can make them easily prostrate before Humans (=claiming that it is a totally "innocent & perfect" form of worship
because "those Humans are not foreigners
but they are already a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD HIMSELF!" So, "They are perfect Manifestations of GOD HIMSELF!"
(*how many generations have been deceived in this way, in the history of Humankind =36/60-62
how about numerous Crusaders in the past, and numerous Radical Evangelical Christians in present time?
how about all kinds of Sects in all Religions, worldwide,
who see their --psychologically/mentally/intellectually-- deranged Human Leaders/Priests/Imams
as "perfect Manifestations of GOD HIMSELF!" (=i.e. in reality they are "false Mahdis" & "false Messiahs") of/in present time!

So, these are the "Messiah Dajjal" (="Anti Christ") ideologies & armies
that are utterly condemned and absolutely refuted by our Lord AL-LAH

in QURAN TESTAMENT here (43/15 = 5/72-74 = 9/30-31 = 5/17-18 = .............)

---

So finally, again, a Truthful Reminder for each and every
Dear "Truth-Seeker" Brothers/Sisters & Fellows/Friends with us,
here

Thereby, when/if we clearly see and absolutely and decisively refute
these "Messiah Dajjal" (="Anti Christ") ideologies above,

which is always based on this fundamentally mistaken/wrongful idea

"the whole creation (=i.e. also and especially "humans" in this respect) Must be a portion/fragment/piece/part of GOD,
from the very Beginning!"

which is absolutely, clearly and unmistakably refuted

in QURAN TESTAMENT =(43/15),

and thus wholeheartedly repent and return to our One and Only Lord AL-LAH, (=25/68-69-70-71)
HE may Guide us into HIS Perfect Way by HIS

Most Superb and Matchless Heavenly MESSAGE (=QURAN TESTAMENT) above, (=5/16)

and can grant unto each and every one of us
Eternal Salvation and Everlasting Joy & Happiness, forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=7/42-43 & 36/54-58)

Remain in peace/salaam.

[truthseeker11]

Peace all,

I had to point out this important issue to the general reader.

Per 2115 the Creator is everywhere, therefore infinite, so all creation has to be a part of the infinite Creator, otherwise if all creation is not part of the infinite Creator then the Creator will end somewhere and creation will begin somewhere and therefore the Creator will be finite and limited and will not be everywhere. 6103 also proves an infinite Creator.

2435 clearly tells us the infinite Creator is the noor of the creation which indicates creation is made of the noor of the infinite Creator.

Nothing other than the infinite Creator exists in reality. If one accepts the Creator being finite and limited and creation being separate, then something other than the infinite Creator exists in reality, which will be setting up partners with the infinite Creator.

This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the Creator is infinite thus all creation is part of the infinite Creator.

LastDay3 is creating contradiction with 2115, 6103, and 2435 by trying to prove that the Creator is not everywhere and is not infinite using other verses. Since that causes contradiction in the quran, he is obviously misinterpreting the other verses thereby basing his conclusion on false and fabricated premises. This is called the logical fallacy of either unwarranted assumption or false premise.

One can use the same logic against me but then he/she will have to prove the Creator is finite and limited according to 2115.

The only way LastDay3 tried to overcome this glaring contradiction with 2115 is by deliberately misinterpreting "wajh" as "power" in 2115, thereby PROPAGATING FALSEHOOD TO OTHERS AND DECEIVING, MISLEADING AND MISGUIDING OTHERS.

He has already shown that he will go to any length to misinterpret a quranic word (by deliberately misinterpreting "wajh" as "power&quot to confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth, so he cannot be trusted about any other interpretations. As far as I am concerned, he has lot all credibility by this tactic.

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

371 "O people of the Book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

1781 And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Actually, the ancient interpretation has some clear inconsistencies, but like you say they are also most probably interpretation errors.

But brother, please be milder in your approach and highlight the points in a constructive and confident manner that does not include strong emotion (instinctive "bite&quot. I have failed myself in the past to counter people in a controlled manner, especially under sarcastic provocation, but it is something to consider. It is true for all of us. No offense, brother. General advice in order to pass to the ethereal state of being.

If your discussion with them has come to circular reasoning (repeating the same arguments with neither part accepting the other's testimony) it tends to be better to leave it at that. You can end it with clearly highlighting the flaw in their logic and why it is illogical, much as you often do. But remember to employ perfect logic to make your Developer (Rabb or insert own descriptive label yourself, e.g infinite creator?) exceed expectations.

Be well
Amenuel

[LastDay3]

Peace all,

I had to point out this important issue to the general reader.

Per 2115 the Creator is everywhere, therefore infinite, so all creation has to be a "part" of the infinite Creator,

otherwise if all creation is not "part" of the infinite Creator then the Creator will end somewhere and creation will begin somewhere

and therefore the Creator will be finite and limited and will not be everywhere.

...............

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

unless you can get rid of your fundamentally mistaken/wrongful reasoning above --(which may be stemming from the fact that
you may have gotten yourself --psychologically/mentally/emotionally-- deeply plunged into this
utterly mistaken/wrongful Assumptions above--

(and I guess, probably due to the influence of your such bad friends above (=6/112-113) from Galactic Federation
and 3rd density human aliens in Sirius therein above >D hypno >D =6/112-113)

unfortunately, you may not be able to SEE this Perfectly Clear and Solid FACT --(no matter how many times I clearly emphasized it above,
in all of those Crystal Clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT, in all of those previous posts).

But here is the Summary specially for you
(because I still and will always truly love you and deeply care for you,
and will remain patient, inshaAL-LAH, till you clearly get it
no matter how much longer it may take for you), my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

So please, absolutely hear this

=The Creator (=AL-LAH) is Everywhere
with HIS Limitless & Infinite --(Knowing and Seeing and Hearing and Controlling and Governing and Judging)-- Powers

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 2/115 = 6/59 & 57/4 & 58/7 & ............)

but HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s and
all Things we can ever imagine, above us,
And for this reason,

====================
4- the Angels and the Spirit (=i.e. Gabriel, =16/102) ascend to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a day whose length/measure is fifty thousand years.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) perfectly leading them above
MUST make this Magnificent Ascent above in 50.000 Years (*please, absolutely see it again in my previous post above)
finally, to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above.

But
"If the Creator were everywhere with His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence
and so everything were "part" of the Creator in His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence"
(according to your mistaken/wrongful assumption that you keep on repeating above, blindly, again and again, ......)

then why all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) above
should bother themselves with such a Huge Task of such a Magnificent Ascent
which takes 50.000 Years for them --(it must be unimaginably enormous/immense Journey & Phenomenon for us)--
to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above?

So, even just this one Verse alone above
clearly and unmistakably proves that all your assumptions (in that quote at the very beginning above)
are fundamentally wrongful/mistaken, from the very beginning!

And all of your other (basically similar/same type of) mistaken/wrongful assumptions above have already clearly been addressed,
and they have most decisively and unmistakably been refuted
in all of these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT

(70/4 = 43/15 & 42/11 & 28/88 & 112/1-4 & ...........)

they are clearly presented here
in each of these previous posts above

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393331#msg393331

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393391#msg393391

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393592#msg393592

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393671#msg393671

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393723#msg393723

Your only enthusiastic supporter/friend here --(who may be in a much worse condition than you, in this respect),
because you still --mistakenly/wrongfully-- imply that

=vibrating strings of energy (and the whole creation and so automatically you yourself) are "part" of God!
*probably, because of such bad "inspirations" of your such bad friends above (=6/112-113) from Galactic Federation and
3 rd density human/jinn aliens >D >D >D therein, (=6/112-113)

and he may still be --mistakenly/wrongfully-- implying that

=vibrating strings of energy (and the whole creation and so automatically he himself) is God!
*probably, because of such bad "inspirations" of his such bad friends above (=6/112-113) from Galactic Federation and
6 th density human/jinn aliens >D >D >D >D >D >D therein. (=6/112-113)

But I still and will always truly love both of you and deeply care for both of you,
as my dear Fellow/Friends,
and will again wholeheartedly recommend you to read

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 6/114)

to completely get rid of that satanic influence & intoxication of those
3 rd density or 6 th density human/jinn aliens above (=6/112-113),

and all of us immediately and wholeheartedly repent and return to our Lord AL-LAH

here (=QURAN TESTAMENT 6/114),

that we may all together be perfectly Guided and abundantly Blessed by our One and Only Lord AL-LAH,
forever, inshaAL-LAH,

as it is sincerely and wholeheartedly recommended
for each and every one of us, here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393722#msg393722

Remain in peace/salaam.

[truthseeker11]

Peace everyone,

LastDay3 fails miserably yet again in his attempt to prove the Creator is finite and limited and that creation is not a part of the infinite Creator.

First he commits logical fallacy of red herring by babbling about irrelevant things which reveals his ignorance.

Then he commits deductive fallacy (false conclusion). 4315 says "they appointed a share to him from his servants" which does not disprove that creation is part of God. It would have opposed that premise only if it had instead said "they appointed a share from him to his servants". My premise is that a share is appointed from God to his creation. I never claimed that God is a part of the creation.

Then LastDay3 commits logical fallacy of unwarranted assumption by misinterpreting 704 to try to make the Creator finite and limited. This sign talks about the lifespan of angels and spirit, that they return to God in a long time. The same word has been used in 228 to mean return to God after death, so it cannot be the time taken to ascend to God in 704, but can only imply return of angels and spirit to God (after taking some time to complete their tasks).

Then he blatantly lies yet again and deliberately misinterprets "wajh" as "power" in 2115 to deceive, mislead and misguide others by his fabrication in a futile attempt to show the Creator is finite and limited. This is logical fallacy of false premise.

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

2115 and 6103 clearly indicate the Creator is infinite and everywhere, thus creation has to be a part of the infinite Creator. 2435 clearly indicates creation is made of noor of the Creator thereby being a part of the Creator. There is no way around this.

371 "O people of the Book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

1781 And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"

Peace

[imrankhawaja]

some more verses to ponder about and hint for those who really afraid of God and associating anything with God in any level...

1988 And they said the Almighty has taken a son!
1989 You have come with a gross blasphemy.
1990 The heavens are about to shatter from it, and the earth crack open, and the mountains fall and crumble.
1991 That they claimed that the Almighty had a son!
1992 And what need does the Almighty have to take a son?
1993 When all there is in the heavens and the earth will come to the Almighty as servants.
1994 He has encompassed them, and counted them one by one.
1995 and every one of them will appear before Him on Resurrection Day in a lonely state

after all i have advice for people who are forcefully claiming agaisnt God what they actually have no knowledge off... understanding the nature of God = impossible...

being a part of God= impossible

connection with a God its all about what we really need to ponder...

connecting my laptop with iphone does not really mean iphone is the part of laptop....

observenace controlling of God does not mean God must be a part of it to controlling it.. are you making laws for God is not a blashphemy itself to limit the conditions with God... who gave this authority to creation of God to apply laws for God ... and draw a conclusion if God is not a part of creation then it is limted... really its unacceptable.. specially for the one who is over all things competenat....

[LastDay3]

Peace everyone,

LastDay3 fails miserably yet again in his attempt to prove the Creator is finite and limited and that
creation is not a "part" of the infinite Creator.

First he commits logical fallacy of red herring by babbling about irrelevant things which reveals his ignorance.

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

I believe these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT perfectly and absolutely proves that

=The Creator (=AL-LAH) is Everywhere
with HIS Limitless & Infinite --(Knowing and Seeing and Hearing and Controlling and Governing and Judging)-- Powers

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 2/115 = 6/59 & 57/4 & 58/7 & ............)

but HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s and
all Things we can ever imagine, above us,
that all of these Angels and Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) can ascend (=ta'ruju) there
in fifty-thousand years

====================
4- the Angels and the Spirit (=i.e. Gabriel, =16/102) ascend (=ta'ruju) to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a day whose length/measure is fifty thousand years.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

And then

I believe these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT perfectly and absolutely proves that

Nothing and No one was Never and is Never and can Never be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

==========
15- And they even assigned to HIM a portion/fragment/piece/part (=juzan) of HIS own servants (=for example
by mistakenly or wrongfully claiming that
"the whole creation (=universe; all matter/energy therein) were-are a "portion/share/piece/part" of HIM)!"

Surely, the human being is profoundly unappreciative.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

And then, those irrelevant things I am babbling about --(according to your claim above)--
(in my opinion), are the Most Relevant things that clearly show your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and
captivity to such 3 rd density human/jinn aliens in Sirius above > > > (=6/112-113)
who communicates these satanic speculations & fantasies

="the whole creation Must be a "portion/share/piece/part" of AL-LAH,
from the very beginning!"

so that in the second step they can also automatically claim that

="they themselves (as part of) that whole creation Must be a "portion/share/piece/part" of AL-LAH
from the very beginning!"

in order to commit this unforgivable gross Sin (=i.e. "Shirk" = to elevate the whole creation
and then automatically themselves as "partners" (="shurakaa") and as "juzan" (="portion/share/piece/part&quot of AL-LAH!

(*these human/jinn satans and their such satanic speculations & blasphemies above
are clearly foretold in QURAN TESTAMENT here =6/112-113

and they are decisively and absolutely refuted

throughout the whole QURAN TESTAMENT, again and again,
here 70/4 = 43/15 & 5/72-74 & 5/17-18 & .........);

but because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above > > > (=6/112-113)

they can still cause you to remain in such a total darkness, ignorance and blindness, in this respect above,
despite such crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

..........
This sign talks about the lifespan of angels and spirit, that they return to God in a long time.

The same word has been used in 228 to mean return to God after death,

so it cannot be the time taken to ascend to God in 704,

but can only imply return of angels and spirit to God (after taking some time to complete their tasks).

thus even to the point that
in your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity to such aliens above > > > (=6/112-113),
you can hastily go and take

this verb (=ra-ja-a = return of human beings to AL-LAH after their death here =2/2

and hastily confuse it with

this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend of Angels and Gabriel to AL-LAH here =70/4)!

Because this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) above, in QURAN TESTAMENT,
--(has nothing to do with this totally different verb (=ra-ja-a = return),
as you hastily and wrongfully assume above)--

but is always referring to "physical ascent" to a higher place/altitude

throughout the QURAN TESTAMENT
here =15/14 & 32/5 & 34/2 & 43/33 & 57/4 & 70/3-4

So, let's clearly see a perfect example here
--(like in the case of those "Angels" above,
now with regard to "Human-Beings" here)

====================
14- And if We opened for them (=Human-Beings) a gate in the Sky
and they were to continue ascending through it (into the Sky),
...........
(QURAN TESTAMENT 15/14)

So, this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) thus clearly and unmistakably refer to
"physical ascent" to Sky in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

But you still continue to misunderstand and misinterpret and misuse all crystal clear Verses above,
you even fabricate a "lifespan" for Angels, that you might have distort those crystal clear Verses above
and fit them into your utterly mistaken/wrongful agenda,
because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such 3rd density human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above > > > (=6/112-113)

but it does Not work and will Never work against The TRUTH perfectly taught by AL-LAH,
so, you can only deceive yourself and the naive and gullible who would follow in your footsteps,
and then you may regret it, forever,
if you do not immediately repent and truthfully return to AL-LAH in this best manner here (=25/70-71),
my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

And finally, let us clearly see here
those other most Essential and important Verses, in this respect,
now here

====================
11- ........ There is nothing like HIM. And HE is the Hearer, the Seer.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 42/11)

• Thus our Lord AL-LAH can Never be likened and Never be compared to "anything" we know of,
  because HE is totally Different/Separate/Distinct above and beyond all things we can ever imagine.

====================
103- The eyesight cannot reach/perceive HIM, yet HE can reach/perceive all eyesight;
for HE is the Expert, the Cognizant.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 6/103)

• Thus even if we were able to ascend and reach --(together with those honorable "Angels" above)
  to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence in those fifty-thousand years above --(as we have clearly witnessed it
  in the above Verse =70/4),
  even then our eyesight could not reach/perceive HIM even there,
  (*only in Hereafter when/if HE grants us, inshaAL-LAH, most sophisticated and advanced eyesight,
  then we may be able to look at and clearly see our Lord AL-LAH's Magnificent Individual/Personal Presence therein =75/22-23),

but our Lord AL-LAH can reach/perceive all eyesight at any moment, at any place here (=20/46 & 57/4 & 58/7 & .....)
from HIS Majestic Station that is fifty-thousand years above --(as we have clearly witnessed it
in this above Verse again, in the first place =70/4).

====================
35- AL-LAH is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
The allegory of HIS Light is
like a niche within which there is a lamp, the lamp is encased in a glass, the glass is like a radiant star,
which is lit from a blessed olive tree that is neither of the east nor of the west,
its oil nearly gives off light even if not touched by fire. Light upon light,

AL-LAH guides to HIS Light whoever wishes (to be guided to it).
And AL-LAH (thus) sets forth allegories for the people; for AL-LAH is Knower of all things.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 24/35)

In this specific allegory above,
I believe the most important thing we should clearly see and absolutely understand
is the Fact that

our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Light --(that shines unto all heavens and the earth above)--
can Never be likened and Never be compared to "no other Light" we may know of here,

because HIS Individual/Personal Light
---(which is neither of the east nor of the west, as clearly emphasized in the above Verse)---
is thus totally Different/Separate/Distinct above and beyond all other Lights we may know of here!

Therefore, no one can Never claim that

="vibrating strings of light/energy were-are a "portion/share/piece/part" of AL-LAH,
from the very beginning, here!"
or
="vibrating strings of light/energy were-are AL-LAH,
from the very beginning, here!"

because these would again be miserable blasphemies
and unforgivable gross Sin (=i.e. "Shirk" = to elevate the whole creation
(="vibrating strings of light/energy here in this case) as "juzan" (="portion/share/piece/part&quot of AL-LAH,
or even
as if it were AL-LAH Himself!

---

(*your only enthusiastic friend/supporter here would definitely go for the second option above, I guess.
As I said before, I still and will always truly love both of you and deeply care for both of you,
for both of you are intelligent and articulate dear Fellow/Friends who may have
also some wonderful/credible/beneficial information in other Topics --(when/if it is approved by QURAN TESTAMENT therein,)--
but unfortunately, I see both of you are still
in this deeply mistaken/blasphemous/wrongful/disastrous two-assumptions,
in this most critical and fundamental Issue above.)

---

because I believe our Lord AL-LAH perfectly, clearly and unmistakably teaches us that

nothing (=i.e. no matter-light-energy in/of universe) can Never be likened and Never be compared to
our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Light that shines --(from HIS Majestic Station above =70/4)--
unto all heavens and the earth here,

as it is perfectly, clearly and unmistakably indicated and emphasized above (=QURAN TESTAMENT 24/35 = 42/11)!

==========
15- And they even assigned to HIM a portion/fragment/piece/part (=juzan) of HIS own servants (=for example
by mistakenly or wrongfully claiming that
"vibrating strings of light/energy were-are a "portion/share/piece/part" of HIM)!"

Surely, the human being is profoundly unappreciative.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

So finally, I earnestly and wholeheartedly invite you, dear fellow/friend TruthSeeker11,
and all other honest and sincere TruthSeeker fellow/friends, here,
to clearly and unmistakably see the Fact that

** the whole Creation, from the very beginning,
was Never and is Never and can Never be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

** because our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s,
all Things whatsoever we can ever imagine above us, that only Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) and all those Angels with Him can reach there
in fifty-thousand years,
as we have clearly witnessed it in this Verse, above =70/4

** Our Lord AL-LAH (=HIS Individual/Personal Presence at HIS Majestic Station above =70/4,
and HIS Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy) which shines absolutely unto Everywhere/Everything here (=24/35)
from HIS Highest Station above =70/4,

is absolutely Different/Separate/Distinct from all Things we can ever imagine,

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 42/11 = 24/35)

and can Never be detected by Humans (with no technological devices whatsoever) here =6/103.

(*even that universal "dark energy" ---which can never be compared to our LORD's Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy)---
cannot be detected up to now (with no technological devices whatsoever) here yet, ..............

Only those who commemorate AL-LAH wholeheartedly and constantly may be granted by our Lord AL-LAH
with HIS Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy) to shine upon them and absolutely surround/permeate them
(=24/35) from HIS Majestic Station above =70/4

to give them absolute Happiness & Serenity & Joy & Security (=10/62-64),
Constantly, here and in the Hereafter, forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=24/35-3

Remain in peace/salaam.

[truthseeker11]

Peace everyone,

LastDay3 continues to blatantly lie and misinterpret to deceive, mislead, and misguide others as already shown. He continues to commit logical fallacies as outlined before and he has been unable to disprove the reality of an infinite Creator. 2115, 6103 and 2435 indicate beyond a shadow of doubt that the Creator is infinite and all creation is a part of the infinite Creator. His lie has drawn the attention of everyone to the undeniable reality of an infinite Creator who is present wherever we turn. There is nothing other than the one infinite Creator in reality.

The triliteral root ww jm h ( &#1607 occurs 78 times in the Quran, in five derived forms. Nowhere can it be interpreted as "power" for which the quran uses the the triliteral root qf ww y ( &#1610. Neither is that interpretation of "power" given in any classical Arabic dictionary. So interpreting it as "power" is nothing but a blatant lie and fabrication.

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wjh
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qwy

Everyone can see that LastDay3 blatantly lies in his discussions to propagate falsehood. If he continues to lie and propagate falsehood without backing it with evidence, and continues to repeat posts, I will have no choice but to report him for violating forum rules #2 and #9. This is my first and final warning to him (just as a courtesy otherwise there is already enough evidence of his violations and I could have reported him already). I will not post any further replies to him in this thread, but just file a formal complaint and report him if he violates those forum rules again.

Anxiously waiting for another violation by LastDay3.

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Actually, truthseeker.

I think LastDay3 actually honestly believes in what he is arguing and therefore it is not a lie. You must just proper terms and in that case LastDay3 is deluded rather than lying and he is probably honest in his conviction. If he goes for inconsistencies then he is arguing in an illogical and nonsensical way. You are right that he is making Rabb immensely finite and primitive, much like most people who believe in the sectarian interpretation of Quran

Be well
Amenuel

[LastDay3]

Everyone can see that LastDay3 blatantly lies in his discussions to propagate falsehood.
If he continues to lie and propagate falsehood without backing it with evidence, and continues to repeat posts,
I will have no choice but to report him for violating forum rules #2 and #9.

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,
.........
but because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above >D >D >D (=6/112-113)

they can still cause you to remain in such a total darkness, ignorance and blindness, in this respect above,
despite such crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

thus even to the point that
in your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity to such aliens above >D >D >D (=6/112-113),
you can hastily go and take

this verb (=ra-ja-a = return of human beings to AL-LAH after their death here =2/28)

and hastily confuse it with

this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend of Angels and Gabriel to AL-LAH here =70/4)!

Because this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) above, in QURAN TESTAMENT,
--(has nothing to do with this totally different verb (=ra-ja-a = return),
as you hastily and wrongfully assume above)--

but is always referring to "physical ascent" to a higher place/altitude

throughout the QURAN TESTAMENT
here =15/14 & 32/5 & 34/2 & 43/33 & 57/4 & 70/3-4

So, let's clearly see a perfect example here
--(like in the case of those "Angels" above,
now with regard to "Human-Beings" here)

====================
14- And if We opened for them (=Human-Beings) a gate in the Sky
and they were to continue ascending through it (into the Sky),
...........
(QURAN TESTAMENT 15/14)

So, this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) thus clearly and unmistakably refer to
"physical ascent" to Sky in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

But you still continue to misunderstand and misinterpret and misuse all crystal clear Verses above,
you even fabricate a "lifespan" for Angels, that you might have distort those crystal clear Verses above
and fit them into your utterly mistaken/wrongful agenda,
because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such 3rd density human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above >D >D >D (=6/112-113)

but it does Not work and will Never work against The TRUTH perfectly taught by AL-LAH,
so, you can only deceive yourself and the naive and gullible who would follow in your footsteps,
and then you may regret it, forever,
if you do not immediately repent and truthfully return to AL-LAH in this best manner here (=25/70-71),
my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

So, if you are truly a decent, honest and moral Human-Being, --(and I truly believe and sincerely hope you still can be),
my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11,
in your next reply please, start in the very beginning

with a Manifest and Sincere APOLOGY, and truthful REPENTANCE, first of all,

about why you have propagated such a Blatant LIE above?

(=i.e. you confused this verb (=ra-ja-a = return) with this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend),
and then you even fabricated a "lifespan" for Angels,
in order to (mistakenly/wrongfully) distort crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT,
that you might have fit them into that satanic agenda,

because you absolutely know that

even just this one Verse (=70/4) is Perfectly Sufficient

to completely destroy all your --mistaken/wrongful-- claims above,
as it is already emphasized in this previous post above

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

........

But here is the Summary specially for you
(because I still and will always truly love you and deeply care for you,
and will remain patient, inshaAL-LAH, till you clearly get it
no matter how much longer it may take for you), my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

So please, absolutely hear this

=The Creator (=AL-LAH) is Everywhere
with HIS Limitless & Infinite --(Knowing and Seeing and Hearing and Controlling and Governing and Judging)-- Powers

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 2/115 = 6/59 & 57/4 & 58/7 & ............)

but HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s and
all Things we can ever imagine, above us,
And for this reason,

====================
4- the Angels and the Spirit (=i.e. Gabriel, =16/102) ascend to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a day whose length/measure is fifty thousand years.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) perfectly leading them above
MUST make this Magnificent Ascent above in 50.000 Years (*please, absolutely see it again in my previous post above)
finally, to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above.

But
"If the Creator were everywhere with His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence
and so everything were "part" of the Creator in His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence"
(according to your mistaken/wrongful assumption that you keep on repeating above, blindly, again and again, ......)

---

then why all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) above
should bother themselves with such a Huge Task of such a Magnificent Ascent
which takes 50.000 Years for them --(it must be unimaginably enormous/immense Journey & Phenomenon for us)--
to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above?

---

So, even just this one Verse alone above
clearly and unmistakably proves that all your assumptions above
are fundamentally wrongful/mistaken, from the very beginning!

And all of your other (basically similar/same type of) mistaken/wrongful assumptions above
have already clearly been addressed,

and they have most decisively and unmistakably been refuted
in all of these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT

(70/4 = 43/15 & 42/11 & 28/88 & 112/1-4 & ...........)

they are clearly presented here
in each of these previous posts above

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393331#msg393331

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393391#msg393391

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393592#msg393592

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393671#msg393671

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393723#msg393723

Remain in peace/salaam.

[LastDay3]

Actually, truthseeker.

I think LastDay3 actually honestly believes in what he is arguing and therefore it is not a lie.
You must just proper terms and in that case LastDay3 is "deluded" rather than lying and he is probably honest in his conviction.
............

..........
But the "vibrating strings of energy" are Rabb,
..........

Salaam/Peace Man of Faith,

I sincerely and wholeheartedly recommend you, my dear Fellow/Friend, to study and learn
what is a "delusion" and who can rightfully be called as "deluded",
according to QURAN TESTAMENT.

Your clear statement in that second quote above (=but the "vibrating strings of energy" are Rabb,)
may be a perfect example to help you clearly understand

=what "delusion" is,

=and who can rightfully be called as "deluded",

according to QURAN TESTAMENT (68/6 = 43/15 & 52/43).

So I sincerely and wholeheartedly recommend you, my dear Fellow/Friend, Man of Faith,
to decisively renounce your such clear and deep "delusions" above,
and immediately repent and return to AL-LAH, in this best manner here (=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/70-71),
for your Eternal Salvation and Everlasting Benefits, forever.

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71-72-73-74-75-76)

Remain in peace/salaam.