Takes time to reach God?

[Man_of_Faith]

Actually, the ancient interpretation has some clear inconsistencies, but like you say they are also most probably interpretation errors.

But brother, please be milder in your approach and highlight the points in a constructive and confident manner that does not include strong emotion (instinctive "bite&quot. I have failed myself in the past to counter people in a controlled manner, especially under sarcastic provocation, but it is something to consider. It is true for all of us. No offense, brother. General advice in order to pass to the ethereal state of being.

If your discussion with them has come to circular reasoning (repeating the same arguments with neither part accepting the other's testimony) it tends to be better to leave it at that. You can end it with clearly highlighting the flaw in their logic and why it is illogical, much as you often do. But remember to employ perfect logic to make your Developer (Rabb or insert own descriptive label yourself, e.g infinite creator?) exceed expectations.

Be well
Amenuel

[LastDay3]

Peace all,

I had to point out this important issue to the general reader.

Per 2115 the Creator is everywhere, therefore infinite, so all creation has to be a "part" of the infinite Creator,

otherwise if all creation is not "part" of the infinite Creator then the Creator will end somewhere and creation will begin somewhere

and therefore the Creator will be finite and limited and will not be everywhere.

...............

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

unless you can get rid of your fundamentally mistaken/wrongful reasoning above --(which may be stemming from the fact that
you may have gotten yourself --psychologically/mentally/emotionally-- deeply plunged into this
utterly mistaken/wrongful Assumptions above--

(and I guess, probably due to the influence of your such bad friends above (=6/112-113) from Galactic Federation
and 3rd density human aliens in Sirius therein above >D hypno >D =6/112-113)

unfortunately, you may not be able to SEE this Perfectly Clear and Solid FACT --(no matter how many times I clearly emphasized it above,
in all of those Crystal Clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT, in all of those previous posts).

But here is the Summary specially for you
(because I still and will always truly love you and deeply care for you,
and will remain patient, inshaAL-LAH, till you clearly get it
no matter how much longer it may take for you), my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

So please, absolutely hear this

=The Creator (=AL-LAH) is Everywhere
with HIS Limitless & Infinite --(Knowing and Seeing and Hearing and Controlling and Governing and Judging)-- Powers

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 2/115 = 6/59 & 57/4 & 58/7 & ............)

but HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s and
all Things we can ever imagine, above us,
And for this reason,

====================
4- the Angels and the Spirit (=i.e. Gabriel, =16/102) ascend to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a day whose length/measure is fifty thousand years.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) perfectly leading them above
MUST make this Magnificent Ascent above in 50.000 Years (*please, absolutely see it again in my previous post above)
finally, to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above.

But
"If the Creator were everywhere with His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence
and so everything were "part" of the Creator in His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence"
(according to your mistaken/wrongful assumption that you keep on repeating above, blindly, again and again, ......)

then why all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) above
should bother themselves with such a Huge Task of such a Magnificent Ascent
which takes 50.000 Years for them --(it must be unimaginably enormous/immense Journey & Phenomenon for us)--
to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above?

So, even just this one Verse alone above
clearly and unmistakably proves that all your assumptions (in that quote at the very beginning above)
are fundamentally wrongful/mistaken, from the very beginning!

And all of your other (basically similar/same type of) mistaken/wrongful assumptions above have already clearly been addressed,
and they have most decisively and unmistakably been refuted
in all of these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT

(70/4 = 43/15 & 42/11 & 28/88 & 112/1-4 & ...........)

they are clearly presented here
in each of these previous posts above

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393331#msg393331

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393391#msg393391

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393592#msg393592

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393671#msg393671

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393723#msg393723

Your only enthusiastic supporter/friend here --(who may be in a much worse condition than you, in this respect),
because you still --mistakenly/wrongfully-- imply that

=vibrating strings of energy (and the whole creation and so automatically you yourself) are "part" of God!
*probably, because of such bad "inspirations" of your such bad friends above (=6/112-113) from Galactic Federation and
3 rd density human/jinn aliens >D >D >D therein, (=6/112-113)

and he may still be --mistakenly/wrongfully-- implying that

=vibrating strings of energy (and the whole creation and so automatically he himself) is God!
*probably, because of such bad "inspirations" of his such bad friends above (=6/112-113) from Galactic Federation and
6 th density human/jinn aliens >D >D >D >D >D >D therein. (=6/112-113)

But I still and will always truly love both of you and deeply care for both of you,
as my dear Fellow/Friends,
and will again wholeheartedly recommend you to read

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 6/114)

to completely get rid of that satanic influence & intoxication of those
3 rd density or 6 th density human/jinn aliens above (=6/112-113),

and all of us immediately and wholeheartedly repent and return to our Lord AL-LAH

here (=QURAN TESTAMENT 6/114),

that we may all together be perfectly Guided and abundantly Blessed by our One and Only Lord AL-LAH,
forever, inshaAL-LAH,

as it is sincerely and wholeheartedly recommended
for each and every one of us, here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393722#msg393722

Remain in peace/salaam.

[truthseeker11]

Peace everyone,

LastDay3 fails miserably yet again in his attempt to prove the Creator is finite and limited and that creation is not a part of the infinite Creator.

First he commits logical fallacy of red herring by babbling about irrelevant things which reveals his ignorance.

Then he commits deductive fallacy (false conclusion). 4315 says "they appointed a share to him from his servants" which does not disprove that creation is part of God. It would have opposed that premise only if it had instead said "they appointed a share from him to his servants". My premise is that a share is appointed from God to his creation. I never claimed that God is a part of the creation.

Then LastDay3 commits logical fallacy of unwarranted assumption by misinterpreting 704 to try to make the Creator finite and limited. This sign talks about the lifespan of angels and spirit, that they return to God in a long time. The same word has been used in 228 to mean return to God after death, so it cannot be the time taken to ascend to God in 704, but can only imply return of angels and spirit to God (after taking some time to complete their tasks).

Then he blatantly lies yet again and deliberately misinterprets "wajh" as "power" in 2115 to deceive, mislead and misguide others by his fabrication in a futile attempt to show the Creator is finite and limited. This is logical fallacy of false premise.

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

2115 and 6103 clearly indicate the Creator is infinite and everywhere, thus creation has to be a part of the infinite Creator. 2435 clearly indicates creation is made of noor of the Creator thereby being a part of the Creator. There is no way around this.

371 "O people of the Book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

1781 And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"

Peace

[imrankhawaja]

some more verses to ponder about and hint for those who really afraid of God and associating anything with God in any level...

1988 And they said the Almighty has taken a son!
1989 You have come with a gross blasphemy.
1990 The heavens are about to shatter from it, and the earth crack open, and the mountains fall and crumble.
1991 That they claimed that the Almighty had a son!
1992 And what need does the Almighty have to take a son?
1993 When all there is in the heavens and the earth will come to the Almighty as servants.
1994 He has encompassed them, and counted them one by one.
1995 and every one of them will appear before Him on Resurrection Day in a lonely state

after all i have advice for people who are forcefully claiming agaisnt God what they actually have no knowledge off... understanding the nature of God = impossible...

being a part of God= impossible

connection with a God its all about what we really need to ponder...

connecting my laptop with iphone does not really mean iphone is the part of laptop....

observenace controlling of God does not mean God must be a part of it to controlling it.. are you making laws for God is not a blashphemy itself to limit the conditions with God... who gave this authority to creation of God to apply laws for God ... and draw a conclusion if God is not a part of creation then it is limted... really its unacceptable.. specially for the one who is over all things competenat....

[LastDay3]

Peace everyone,

LastDay3 fails miserably yet again in his attempt to prove the Creator is finite and limited and that
creation is not a "part" of the infinite Creator.

First he commits logical fallacy of red herring by babbling about irrelevant things which reveals his ignorance.

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

I believe these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT perfectly and absolutely proves that

=The Creator (=AL-LAH) is Everywhere
with HIS Limitless & Infinite --(Knowing and Seeing and Hearing and Controlling and Governing and Judging)-- Powers

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 2/115 = 6/59 & 57/4 & 58/7 & ............)

but HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s and
all Things we can ever imagine, above us,
that all of these Angels and Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) can ascend (=ta'ruju) there
in fifty-thousand years

====================
4- the Angels and the Spirit (=i.e. Gabriel, =16/102) ascend (=ta'ruju) to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a day whose length/measure is fifty thousand years.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

And then

I believe these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT perfectly and absolutely proves that

Nothing and No one was Never and is Never and can Never be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

==========
15- And they even assigned to HIM a portion/fragment/piece/part (=juzan) of HIS own servants (=for example
by mistakenly or wrongfully claiming that
"the whole creation (=universe; all matter/energy therein) were-are a "portion/share/piece/part" of HIM)!"

Surely, the human being is profoundly unappreciative.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

And then, those irrelevant things I am babbling about --(according to your claim above)--
(in my opinion), are the Most Relevant things that clearly show your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and
captivity to such 3 rd density human/jinn aliens in Sirius above > > > (=6/112-113)
who communicates these satanic speculations & fantasies

="the whole creation Must be a "portion/share/piece/part" of AL-LAH,
from the very beginning!"

so that in the second step they can also automatically claim that

="they themselves (as part of) that whole creation Must be a "portion/share/piece/part" of AL-LAH
from the very beginning!"

in order to commit this unforgivable gross Sin (=i.e. "Shirk" = to elevate the whole creation
and then automatically themselves as "partners" (="shurakaa") and as "juzan" (="portion/share/piece/part&quot of AL-LAH!

(*these human/jinn satans and their such satanic speculations & blasphemies above
are clearly foretold in QURAN TESTAMENT here =6/112-113

and they are decisively and absolutely refuted

throughout the whole QURAN TESTAMENT, again and again,
here 70/4 = 43/15 & 5/72-74 & 5/17-18 & .........);

but because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above > > > (=6/112-113)

they can still cause you to remain in such a total darkness, ignorance and blindness, in this respect above,
despite such crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

..........
This sign talks about the lifespan of angels and spirit, that they return to God in a long time.

The same word has been used in 228 to mean return to God after death,

so it cannot be the time taken to ascend to God in 704,

but can only imply return of angels and spirit to God (after taking some time to complete their tasks).

thus even to the point that
in your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity to such aliens above > > > (=6/112-113),
you can hastily go and take

this verb (=ra-ja-a = return of human beings to AL-LAH after their death here =2/2

and hastily confuse it with

this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend of Angels and Gabriel to AL-LAH here =70/4)!

Because this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) above, in QURAN TESTAMENT,
--(has nothing to do with this totally different verb (=ra-ja-a = return),
as you hastily and wrongfully assume above)--

but is always referring to "physical ascent" to a higher place/altitude

throughout the QURAN TESTAMENT
here =15/14 & 32/5 & 34/2 & 43/33 & 57/4 & 70/3-4

So, let's clearly see a perfect example here
--(like in the case of those "Angels" above,
now with regard to "Human-Beings" here)

====================
14- And if We opened for them (=Human-Beings) a gate in the Sky
and they were to continue ascending through it (into the Sky),
...........
(QURAN TESTAMENT 15/14)

So, this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) thus clearly and unmistakably refer to
"physical ascent" to Sky in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

But you still continue to misunderstand and misinterpret and misuse all crystal clear Verses above,
you even fabricate a "lifespan" for Angels, that you might have distort those crystal clear Verses above
and fit them into your utterly mistaken/wrongful agenda,
because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such 3rd density human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above > > > (=6/112-113)

but it does Not work and will Never work against The TRUTH perfectly taught by AL-LAH,
so, you can only deceive yourself and the naive and gullible who would follow in your footsteps,
and then you may regret it, forever,
if you do not immediately repent and truthfully return to AL-LAH in this best manner here (=25/70-71),
my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

And finally, let us clearly see here
those other most Essential and important Verses, in this respect,
now here

====================
11- ........ There is nothing like HIM. And HE is the Hearer, the Seer.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 42/11)

• Thus our Lord AL-LAH can Never be likened and Never be compared to "anything" we know of,
  because HE is totally Different/Separate/Distinct above and beyond all things we can ever imagine.

====================
103- The eyesight cannot reach/perceive HIM, yet HE can reach/perceive all eyesight;
for HE is the Expert, the Cognizant.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 6/103)

• Thus even if we were able to ascend and reach --(together with those honorable "Angels" above)
  to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence in those fifty-thousand years above --(as we have clearly witnessed it
  in the above Verse =70/4),
  even then our eyesight could not reach/perceive HIM even there,
  (*only in Hereafter when/if HE grants us, inshaAL-LAH, most sophisticated and advanced eyesight,
  then we may be able to look at and clearly see our Lord AL-LAH's Magnificent Individual/Personal Presence therein =75/22-23),

but our Lord AL-LAH can reach/perceive all eyesight at any moment, at any place here (=20/46 & 57/4 & 58/7 & .....)
from HIS Majestic Station that is fifty-thousand years above --(as we have clearly witnessed it
in this above Verse again, in the first place =70/4).

====================
35- AL-LAH is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
The allegory of HIS Light is
like a niche within which there is a lamp, the lamp is encased in a glass, the glass is like a radiant star,
which is lit from a blessed olive tree that is neither of the east nor of the west,
its oil nearly gives off light even if not touched by fire. Light upon light,

AL-LAH guides to HIS Light whoever wishes (to be guided to it).
And AL-LAH (thus) sets forth allegories for the people; for AL-LAH is Knower of all things.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 24/35)

In this specific allegory above,
I believe the most important thing we should clearly see and absolutely understand
is the Fact that

our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Light --(that shines unto all heavens and the earth above)--
can Never be likened and Never be compared to "no other Light" we may know of here,

because HIS Individual/Personal Light
---(which is neither of the east nor of the west, as clearly emphasized in the above Verse)---
is thus totally Different/Separate/Distinct above and beyond all other Lights we may know of here!

Therefore, no one can Never claim that

="vibrating strings of light/energy were-are a "portion/share/piece/part" of AL-LAH,
from the very beginning, here!"
or
="vibrating strings of light/energy were-are AL-LAH,
from the very beginning, here!"

because these would again be miserable blasphemies
and unforgivable gross Sin (=i.e. "Shirk" = to elevate the whole creation
(="vibrating strings of light/energy here in this case) as "juzan" (="portion/share/piece/part&quot of AL-LAH,
or even
as if it were AL-LAH Himself!

---

(*your only enthusiastic friend/supporter here would definitely go for the second option above, I guess.
As I said before, I still and will always truly love both of you and deeply care for both of you,
for both of you are intelligent and articulate dear Fellow/Friends who may have
also some wonderful/credible/beneficial information in other Topics --(when/if it is approved by QURAN TESTAMENT therein,)--
but unfortunately, I see both of you are still
in this deeply mistaken/blasphemous/wrongful/disastrous two-assumptions,
in this most critical and fundamental Issue above.)

---

because I believe our Lord AL-LAH perfectly, clearly and unmistakably teaches us that

nothing (=i.e. no matter-light-energy in/of universe) can Never be likened and Never be compared to
our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Light that shines --(from HIS Majestic Station above =70/4)--
unto all heavens and the earth here,

as it is perfectly, clearly and unmistakably indicated and emphasized above (=QURAN TESTAMENT 24/35 = 42/11)!

==========
15- And they even assigned to HIM a portion/fragment/piece/part (=juzan) of HIS own servants (=for example
by mistakenly or wrongfully claiming that
"vibrating strings of light/energy were-are a "portion/share/piece/part" of HIM)!"

Surely, the human being is profoundly unappreciative.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

So finally, I earnestly and wholeheartedly invite you, dear fellow/friend TruthSeeker11,
and all other honest and sincere TruthSeeker fellow/friends, here,
to clearly and unmistakably see the Fact that

** the whole Creation, from the very beginning,
was Never and is Never and can Never be a "portion/fragment/piece/part" of AL-LAH, period.

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15)

** because our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s,
all Things whatsoever we can ever imagine above us, that only Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) and all those Angels with Him can reach there
in fifty-thousand years,
as we have clearly witnessed it in this Verse, above =70/4

** Our Lord AL-LAH (=HIS Individual/Personal Presence at HIS Majestic Station above =70/4,
and HIS Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy) which shines absolutely unto Everywhere/Everything here (=24/35)
from HIS Highest Station above =70/4,

is absolutely Different/Separate/Distinct from all Things we can ever imagine,

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 42/11 = 24/35)

and can Never be detected by Humans (with no technological devices whatsoever) here =6/103.

(*even that universal "dark energy" ---which can never be compared to our LORD's Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy)---
cannot be detected up to now (with no technological devices whatsoever) here yet, ..............

Only those who commemorate AL-LAH wholeheartedly and constantly may be granted by our Lord AL-LAH
with HIS Individual/Personal Noor (=Light/Energy) to shine upon them and absolutely surround/permeate them
(=24/35) from HIS Majestic Station above =70/4

to give them absolute Happiness & Serenity & Joy & Security (=10/62-64),
Constantly, here and in the Hereafter, forever, inshaAL-LAH. (=24/35-3

Remain in peace/salaam.

[truthseeker11]

Peace everyone,

LastDay3 continues to blatantly lie and misinterpret to deceive, mislead, and misguide others as already shown. He continues to commit logical fallacies as outlined before and he has been unable to disprove the reality of an infinite Creator. 2115, 6103 and 2435 indicate beyond a shadow of doubt that the Creator is infinite and all creation is a part of the infinite Creator. His lie has drawn the attention of everyone to the undeniable reality of an infinite Creator who is present wherever we turn. There is nothing other than the one infinite Creator in reality.

The triliteral root ww jm h ( &#1607 occurs 78 times in the Quran, in five derived forms. Nowhere can it be interpreted as "power" for which the quran uses the the triliteral root qf ww y ( &#1610. Neither is that interpretation of "power" given in any classical Arabic dictionary. So interpreting it as "power" is nothing but a blatant lie and fabrication.

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wjh
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qwy

Everyone can see that LastDay3 blatantly lies in his discussions to propagate falsehood. If he continues to lie and propagate falsehood without backing it with evidence, and continues to repeat posts, I will have no choice but to report him for violating forum rules #2 and #9. This is my first and final warning to him (just as a courtesy otherwise there is already enough evidence of his violations and I could have reported him already). I will not post any further replies to him in this thread, but just file a formal complaint and report him if he violates those forum rules again.

Anxiously waiting for another violation by LastDay3.

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Actually, truthseeker.

I think LastDay3 actually honestly believes in what he is arguing and therefore it is not a lie. You must just proper terms and in that case LastDay3 is deluded rather than lying and he is probably honest in his conviction. If he goes for inconsistencies then he is arguing in an illogical and nonsensical way. You are right that he is making Rabb immensely finite and primitive, much like most people who believe in the sectarian interpretation of Quran

Be well
Amenuel

[LastDay3]

Everyone can see that LastDay3 blatantly lies in his discussions to propagate falsehood.
If he continues to lie and propagate falsehood without backing it with evidence, and continues to repeat posts,
I will have no choice but to report him for violating forum rules #2 and #9.

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,
.........
but because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above >D >D >D (=6/112-113)

they can still cause you to remain in such a total darkness, ignorance and blindness, in this respect above,
despite such crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

thus even to the point that
in your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity to such aliens above >D >D >D (=6/112-113),
you can hastily go and take

this verb (=ra-ja-a = return of human beings to AL-LAH after their death here =2/28)

and hastily confuse it with

this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend of Angels and Gabriel to AL-LAH here =70/4)!

Because this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) above, in QURAN TESTAMENT,
--(has nothing to do with this totally different verb (=ra-ja-a = return),
as you hastily and wrongfully assume above)--

but is always referring to "physical ascent" to a higher place/altitude

throughout the QURAN TESTAMENT
here =15/14 & 32/5 & 34/2 & 43/33 & 57/4 & 70/3-4

So, let's clearly see a perfect example here
--(like in the case of those "Angels" above,
now with regard to "Human-Beings" here)

====================
14- And if We opened for them (=Human-Beings) a gate in the Sky
and they were to continue ascending through it (into the Sky),
...........
(QURAN TESTAMENT 15/14)

So, this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend) thus clearly and unmistakably refer to
"physical ascent" to Sky in QURAN TESTAMENT above.

But you still continue to misunderstand and misinterpret and misuse all crystal clear Verses above,
you even fabricate a "lifespan" for Angels, that you might have distort those crystal clear Verses above
and fit them into your utterly mistaken/wrongful agenda,
because of your psychological/mental/emotional attachment and captivity
to such 3rd density human/jinn aliens and their news channels in Sirius above >D >D >D (=6/112-113)

but it does Not work and will Never work against The TRUTH perfectly taught by AL-LAH,
so, you can only deceive yourself and the naive and gullible who would follow in your footsteps,
and then you may regret it, forever,
if you do not immediately repent and truthfully return to AL-LAH in this best manner here (=25/70-71),
my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

So, if you are truly a decent, honest and moral Human-Being, --(and I truly believe and sincerely hope you still can be),
my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11,
in your next reply please, start in the very beginning

with a Manifest and Sincere APOLOGY, and truthful REPENTANCE, first of all,

about why you have propagated such a Blatant LIE above?

(=i.e. you confused this verb (=ra-ja-a = return) with this verb (=a-ra-ja = ascend),
and then you even fabricated a "lifespan" for Angels,
in order to (mistakenly/wrongfully) distort crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT,
that you might have fit them into that satanic agenda,

because you absolutely know that

even just this one Verse (=70/4) is Perfectly Sufficient

to completely destroy all your --mistaken/wrongful-- claims above,
as it is already emphasized in this previous post above

Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,

........

But here is the Summary specially for you
(because I still and will always truly love you and deeply care for you,
and will remain patient, inshaAL-LAH, till you clearly get it
no matter how much longer it may take for you), my dear Fellow/Friend TruthSeeker11.

So please, absolutely hear this

=The Creator (=AL-LAH) is Everywhere
with HIS Limitless & Infinite --(Knowing and Seeing and Hearing and Controlling and Governing and Judging)-- Powers

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 2/115 = 6/59 & 57/4 & 58/7 & ............)

but HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s and
all Things we can ever imagine, above us,
And for this reason,

====================
4- the Angels and the Spirit (=i.e. Gabriel, =16/102) ascend to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a day whose length/measure is fifty thousand years.

(QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4)

all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) perfectly leading them above
MUST make this Magnificent Ascent above in 50.000 Years (*please, absolutely see it again in my previous post above)
finally, to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above.

But
"If the Creator were everywhere with His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence
and so everything were "part" of the Creator in His Individual/Personal/Physical Presence"
(according to your mistaken/wrongful assumption that you keep on repeating above, blindly, again and again, ......)

---

then why all of these Angels together with Gabriel (Peace be upon Him) above
should bother themselves with such a Huge Task of such a Magnificent Ascent
which takes 50.000 Years for them --(it must be unimaginably enormous/immense Journey & Phenomenon for us)--
to be able to ascend to our Lord AL-LAH's Individual/Personal Presence at the end of their Magnificent Ascent above?

---

So, even just this one Verse alone above
clearly and unmistakably proves that all your assumptions above
are fundamentally wrongful/mistaken, from the very beginning!

And all of your other (basically similar/same type of) mistaken/wrongful assumptions above
have already clearly been addressed,

and they have most decisively and unmistakably been refuted
in all of these crystal clear Verses in QURAN TESTAMENT

(70/4 = 43/15 & 42/11 & 28/88 & 112/1-4 & ...........)

they are clearly presented here
in each of these previous posts above

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393331#msg393331

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393391#msg393391

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393592#msg393592

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393671#msg393671

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.msg393723#msg393723

Remain in peace/salaam.

[LastDay3]

Actually, truthseeker.

I think LastDay3 actually honestly believes in what he is arguing and therefore it is not a lie.
You must just proper terms and in that case LastDay3 is "deluded" rather than lying and he is probably honest in his conviction.
............

..........
But the "vibrating strings of energy" are Rabb,
..........

Salaam/Peace Man of Faith,

I sincerely and wholeheartedly recommend you, my dear Fellow/Friend, to study and learn
what is a "delusion" and who can rightfully be called as "deluded",
according to QURAN TESTAMENT.

Your clear statement in that second quote above (=but the "vibrating strings of energy" are Rabb,)
may be a perfect example to help you clearly understand

=what "delusion" is,

=and who can rightfully be called as "deluded",

according to QURAN TESTAMENT (68/6 = 43/15 & 52/43).

So I sincerely and wholeheartedly recommend you, my dear Fellow/Friend, Man of Faith,
to decisively renounce your such clear and deep "delusions" above,
and immediately repent and return to AL-LAH, in this best manner here (=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/70-71),
for your Eternal Salvation and Everlasting Benefits, forever.

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71-72-73-74-75-76)

Remain in peace/salaam.

[good_logic]

Peace Truthseeker11,Man Of Faith, LastDay3.

Please allow me to quote few verses as a reminder to all of us here, and as advise of how we learn from Qoran and the qualities we should seek for our salvation
1319
Is one who recognizes that your Lord's revelations to you are the truth equal to one who is blind? Only "Oul-AlAlbab"will take heed.

Brothers, you are debating the words of GOD. GOD clearly says here ,"Ouli-AlAlbab" should take heed. Ponder that word and let us continue
1320
They are the ones who fulfill their pledge to God, and do not violate the covenant.

GOD s instructions to us are to "fulfil the pledge" i.e follow Qoran instructions/code of conduct...etc Look below
1321
They join what God has commanded to be joined, reverence their Lord, and fear the dreadful reckoning.

Truthseeker , using "liar" and Man Of faith using "deluded" in their posts are not justified according to what I am reading in this thread so far.

Even if there was justification in using strong words, we should counter "evil with good" as Qoran advise us
1322
They steadfastly persevere in seeking their Lord, observe the Salat, spend from our provisions to them secretly and publicly, and counter evil with good. These have deserved the best abode.

What is wrong with countering with "good words" and using verses from Qoran?
Just because we understand differently, if one is sincerely trying to uncover the truth, does not mean "lying" or "deluded" if we disagree?
Sorry for going off topic.
Now coming back to topic, I will give a couple of examples of how Qoran does not follow lexicon definitions or man s grammar
Example 1- In my last verse above( 1322) "Wajh" in the verse does not mean real "face". It forms an expression.
So if I am saying "Ibtighaa wajh Rabbihim" means "seeking their Lord" am I "lying" or "deluded"? It makes sense to me unless someone shows me/evidence to me a better explanation that does not contradict other verses?
Example 2 In my first verse above ( 1319)"Aama" does not mean real"blind" .etc.

LastDay3 I have found your posts respectful so far. I am surprised at brothers Truthseeker and Man Of Faith as I found them to be trusworthy and sincere in the past.

May the Lord bless you all and guide you to His truth.
Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

Good logic,

I actually reprimanded truthseeker for his harsh use of words. I told him that deluded is at least feasible.

Deluded I have used as the kindest kind of way saying someone is confused into believing something to be true while it is not. It is not of mean intention with how I use it.

One cannot be censor oneself utterly just because it might be sensitive to some readers. If the case is someone is deluded into believing something it is but fair to the one being deluded to be informed. I am offering help to avoid the delusion too.

If you have a better and gentler word of talking about someone's confusion into believing in disinformation then please tell me.

Be well
Amenuel

[Man_of_Faith]

And will you criticize Quran for using the Arabic word "kafar" then seeing it means what I am saying in English, i.e. deluded?

Be well
Amenuel

[good_logic]

Peace Man Of Faith.

Thank you for explaining.
Of course you should give your opinion as strongly as you feel justified by your "evidence".
The readers can then scrutinise that "evidence " .
Can claiming someone is "deluded" be done by a better evidenced argument?

God bless you.
Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

If you can render someone's argument as clearly flawed and illogical it is highly probable that the person is deluded. Certainly it is better then if you have your own alternative too which is logically more sound.

And I can agree that it is easy to be deluded in this world and I have been it myself too, and it is nothing to be ashamed of but only to seek to be better informed and less biased. Often you are so certain about your conviction that you do not realize yourself how deluded you are.

Be well
Amenuel

[imrankhawaja]

sorry for joining the discussion again,,,

infact saying lastday deleude will not be fair becoz what he actually reject is ....

But the "vibrating strings of energy" are Rabb,

and he is true in it becoz thats what quran also telling us according to the interpretation which some of the people not accepted...

if we look in that angle than surely deleuded is one who reject the very clear message... but we dnt have a right to say anybody disbeleiver or deleuded becoz God knows well who is on right path,, everybody wil judged according to the knowledge they gain .. on the condition if they are loyal to God...

threating somebody like this is not a act of Godly person...

i hope everybpdy understand now

peace and God bless you all group

[good_logic]

Peace Man Of Faith.

When you say,quote
If you can render someone's argument as clearly flawed and illogical it is highly probable that the person is deluded

How did you come to such a conclusion? Or is it according to you?

I have not seen it in any of your posts in this thread.

Also ,when two people(A and B) disagree,there are 3 possibilities brother
1- A is right.
2- B is right.
3- Both A and B are wrong.
Therefore I disagree with you here,quote
Often you are so certain about your conviction that you do not realize yourself how deluded you are.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace Man Of Faith.

When you say,quote
If you can render someone's argument as clearly flawed and illogical it is highly probable that the person is deluded

How did you come to such a conclusion? Or is it according to you?

I have not seen it in any of your posts in this thread.

Also ,when two people(A and B) disagree,there are 3 possibilities brother
1- A is right.
2- B is right.
3- Both A and B are wrong.
Therefore I disagree with you here,quote
Often you are so certain about your conviction that you do not realize yourself how deluded you are.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

I said what I said. If you have sufficient input to nullify someone's claims and they still do not accept it then they are very likely deluded. My statement was coherent with what I continued to say.

I do not see the connection between your conclusion that there are three possibilities and my statement?

I said generally, that often people are so confident on what they believe that they have a hard time perceiving that they are wrong even if clearly proved to be wrong.

Be well
Amenuel

[good_logic]

Peace Man Of Faith.

If one is" certain" it should mean they have strong evidence.Therefore I would say
"Often if one "thinks" they are certain about their conviction...

That is what I meant.

Then I agree with you..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[imrankhawaja]

If one is" certain" it should mean they have strong evidence.Therefore I would say
"Often if one "thinks" they are certain about their conviction...

and when somebody certain about his findings that based on quran... then totally its unfair to adress him deleuded...

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace Man Of Faith.

If one is" certain" it should mean they have strong evidence.Therefore I would say
"Often if one "thinks" they are certain about their conviction...

That is what I meant.

Then I agree with you..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

If you say so. Perhaps your formulation was better and I thank you for your contribution. Yet I meant basically exactly what you told now.