Women "striking their feet"
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Quran chapter 24 verse 31 contains this
Yusuf Ali interpretationand that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
While common interpretation state that the striking is about the old "bracelets" that women used to wear on their feets and made sounds.....Others think it's "separate" their feet/thighs (whatever) while sitting, or catwalking....
I think the meaning is nearer to something that would actually make the action of "striking the feets" related to drawing attention specifically to their "ornaments".
Looking at this arabic-arabic dictionnary , "dharb" can easily refer to "movement". i.e "dharaba" in the sea would be moved in the sea / swimmed.
Now it would make sense, that some sort of movements made by women that would automatically draw attention to their "ornaments".
Obvious thing would be some bracelet, separate their feet, erotical dancing, belly dancing, and any miley cyrus kind of movement.
What do you guys think ?
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Salam
Q Al-noor/the light sura 24
241 A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down CLEAR Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition/remember2431 Yusuf Ali And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their VEILS/ over their BOSOMS and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their HIDDEN ORNAMENTS . And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
It is the same word used for alcohol, a thing that conceals mind from what's apparent
Bosom on conceal
If a women strikes/jump/bounce the area/bosom they put veil/conceal gets attentive.
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The last, long part of he aya speakes of exibiting callinng attention to something. The legs and feet can me moved in such a way os to do just that.
It is a specific attitude not that this or tht is seen or not seen but the attitude to show off and call attention specifically.
I do not think it is about dancing, belly dancing or otherwise. By the way belly dancing, just like any othr dancing or action can be turned into something undue, but in itself what is call belly dancing is not lustful, it simly moves parts of the body that westerners and others are not used to see moved.
It is beautiful and joyful.Salaam
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Salam huruf
One may believe what ever way they desire, but regarding this subject the beginning of this sura/chapter stands for it self.
241 A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down CLEAR Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition/remember -
I think the meaning is nearer to something that would actually make the action of "striking the feets" related to drawing attention specifically to their "ornaments".
Looking at this arabic-arabic dictionnary , "dharb" can easily refer to "movement". i.e "dharaba" in the sea would be moved in the sea / swimmed.
Now it would make sense, that some sort of movements made by women that would automatically draw attention to their "ornaments".
Obvious thing would be some bracelet, separate their feet, erotical dancing, belly dancing, and any miley cyrus kind of movement.
What do you guys think ?
Personally to me this is an interesting description...
It shows the habits of the audience of the Quran during that time. And it shows cultural link / traceability between Arabia, Egypt and India/Indus Valley Civilizastion. Wearing a foot bracelet which produces sound is a 'unique' trait of such cultures.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnkletAs for recommendation of not to 'strike their feet and create sound', it's for 'safety' reason (to avoid of getting robbed / drawing attention from robber or thieves) given the 'peacefulness' situation of arabia during that time.
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the anklet is also a symbol of prositution who attracts men with dance that make beat of their anklets..with the movement of feet..
its called mujra ( dance with beats of anklets) in a place where the customers are sitting like a watch dogs .. rotfl
so in common cultural values in indo-pak the girl who wear anklet even as a fashion is not well encouraged by elders...
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Salam huruf
One may believe what ever way they desire, but regarding this subject the beginning of this sura/chapter stands for it self.
241 A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down CLEAR Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition/rememberYes, I know that aya very well, so what is your contention?
You say "One may believe what ever way they desire, but regarding this subject?"
Yes, I suppose you may be do that, but what I said was that what is being pointed at is the attitude of making a show of oneself, of calling attention to ones charms that normally should not be a matter for exhibition. That is what the verb "aBDaYa" means, which is repeated twice, and the opposite of aKHFYa, which is what the legs and feet do when women "la yadribna".
So whatever objections you have state them clearly.
Salaam
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Salam huruf
In My little understanding of the aya Women are commanded to conceal
Bosom on conceal
So if a Woman was to strike her feet that chest/bosom(she is cammanded to conceal) would become apparent or draw attention.
If I may encourage you to ponder on the word within The Book.
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Salam
As we know ayaat means signs, something one can verify. Being a Man my self, I testify for my self that if a woman's bosom bounces it gets noticed. Because it takes the covering/ off the mind.If you like to add in from The Book or YOUR thought please do.
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If a women strikes/jump/bounce the area/bosom they put veil/conceal gets attentive.
Yes, but the point isn't "which body part" that triggers the man and shouldn't be bounced...
It is a specific attitude not that this or tht is seen or not seen but the attitude to show off and call attention specifically.
Yes, an attitude that express itself by "Movement".
I do not think it is about dancing, belly dancing or otherwise. By the way belly dancing, just like any othr dancing or action can be turned into something undue, but in itself what is call belly dancing is not lustful, it simly moves parts of the body that westerners and others are not used to see moved.
It is beautiful and joyful.You didn't back up your claim though.
You don't think it's belly dancing ? Well belly dancing was only an example, but belly dancing is the definition of someone making moves to draw attention to certain parts.
It's not lustful ? Westerners ?
Only men with a nudity-free mind can judge.
Same men who were told to keep their look away from women's "assets".
It makes sense right ? The moment they start looking at them their mind will no longer be nudity-free..hence why things like belly dancing will no longer be "lustful" for a westerner. Reason why a westerner would watch belly dancing and pole dancing in a TV show with his westerner family, along with couple other things.I think the meaning is nearer to something that would actually make the action of "striking the feets" related to drawing attention specifically to their "ornaments".
Looking at this arabic-arabic dictionnary , "dharb" can easily refer to "movement". i.e "dharaba" in the sea would be moved in the sea / swimmed.
Now it would make sense, that some sort of movements made by women that would automatically draw attention to their "ornaments".
Obvious thing would be some bracelet, separate their feet, erotical dancing, belly dancing, and any miley cyrus kind of movement.
My point is that there is AN ACTION that leads to a REACTION.
The interpretation of the action, which is "Striking feet" (literally) leads to an "Unwanted reaction".
I was trying to address what sort of action would give such result. Not necessarily linked to a body part. -
What claim do I have to support if I say that belly dncing is beautiful?
Belly dancing is done in all egyptian houses mostly by women but also by men, there is nothing lustful in it. Tehre seems to be the idea that is something that is done in nightbclubs, but that is just an off shoot. Every woman an girl in Egypt does it in family gatherings and celbrations. It is the common dance.
It is who says that it is lustful who has to support his or her claim. Anything can be turned intosomething lustful, but not because it is necessarily lustful. In fact I think that even in night clubs the dancer has to do something besides dancing in order for it to be lustful, because in itself it is not.
Salaam
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What claim do I have to support if I say that belly dncing is beautiful?
No I clearly meant that you need to support the "isn't lusftul" part.
Belly dancing is done in all egyptian houses mostly by women but also by men, there is nothing lustful in it.
Okay so it's done in egypt on a regular basis as some tradition, how does that prove it isn't lustful ?
Every woman an girl in Egypt does it in family gatherings and celbrations. It is the common dance.
Some more details on the egyptian traditional dance. all right.
It is who says that it is lustful who has to support his or her claim. Anything can be turned intosomething lustful, but not because it is necessarily lustful.
It doesn't take an expert to figure out that a dance that is based on shaking the "belly" and everything around it is in a way or another Lustful. It also forces to watch the "shaky" area with all the decoration around it. Of course some will call that ART, other will call it Tradition.
It's not even about belly dancing itself. It was an example of a "MOVEMENT" that necessarily result in the drawing the attention to specific parts of the woman's body. Parts that a man shouldn't be looking at. Let alone watching a dance that consist of shaking them. rotfl
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It shows clearly you are speaking about something you know but about somethig that you imagine. I am not imagining anything, I know. It is not lustful. Men and women do it and watch it and enjoy it and they are not craving for lust at all. Those arts of the body exist, have or are muscles and it is very healthy to train them and keep in good shape. Beides it is very graceful, full of joy and sometimes, depending on the dancer, very elegant.
Hips are things of this word, so are bellies. They are not secrets, they re not sins, the are arts of the human body as noble as anything. And articularly in women, ghe muscles of he belly are very imortant a worth reverence as every person hs lived their first 9 months of their existence inside those bellies. here are not part of the body that are sinful, there are ayes that see sin everywhere, or only the possibility of sin and nothing else. Is ig more virtuous to have feet than to hve belly?
The worst part about "belly dancing", is tat for somebody who has not learnt since childhood it is hard to do it. And by the way it also moves the neck and other arts i ways that are very, for me, difficult. And by the way, the dancers do not sripbut maybe even wearing a nicab. It would be unthinkable that anybody in those gatherings should get lustful.
I am afraid, even with all the "progress", cetain type of "westerners" still have problems with women's bodies.
On the other hand, neither in Egypt nor anywhere else, nobody need to do any dancing or anything in particular for certain type of men to become lustful. The lust is in the persons not in the dance.
n the other hand what happens with polynesian women dances. To a lesser exent they also rely on the movement of hips and buttocks, are they also lustful? I do not think so.
Salaam
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Of course women's bodies can be a problem, it depends on what kind of life you would wish to live. Solutions to the problem without removing the naked women is to simply not go to wherever you might see them. You cannot get rid of them unless the society begins to say no about the phenomenon by showing distaste and frowning upon it. But if the community encourages the mode of living then obviously you will not be rid of the behavior. In Western societies many or most men appreciate the undressing since they are not fighting their instincts. The dressing up is done in order to help people who wish to fight their instincts, but is useless in a society where no one bothers.
A woman is also revealing her body instinctively because she wishes to show her freshness and fertile body, and adds makeup to enhance it further. It is then also a compulsive act, she does it because she listens to her instinctive drive without combating it.
The same goes for a man that for similar reasons might desire to wear short-sleeved tight T-shirts in order to reveal his masculinity in order to show his capability and strength. And he chooses his clothes in order to enhance his bodily beauty.
No one can deny it is because of their instincts. But people seem to accept the instinctive drive as something meant to be listened to. A truth is nevertheless that the instincts make us quite enslaved to our own bodies and not really free to think independently. Perhaps you cannot evade the instinct to eat, but you can control it. Same goes for the sex drive, you can control it even if you cannot be rid of it for as long as you reside in the body. For such as me the drive is just a pain in the rear end and I feel I have to live with it, while others might enjoy it because they allow themselves to. I feel enslaved only, like an unwilling spirit that has to submit to something I do not want.
Be well
Amenuel -
Salam
And say to the believing women (that) they should "lower their gaze" and they should guard their chastity, and "not (to) display their adornment except what is apparent" of it. And let them their covers over their bosoms,
Now the Question is how do we define apparent? What is apparent according to The Book, is thighs apparent, is belly apparent, is women's backs apparent, shoulders apparent. -
Everything is apparent, if you are in a body and that body is somewhere wher one can see it everything is aarent, only is not that which you make a determined effort to have exibited, to call attention to. "yubdina". If you go about your business without showing off nything in articular or showing off in general, that is it you are already doing what the Qur'an advises you.
Salaam
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Well, to display ornaments sounds like to deliberately show off your beauty, e.g. flirting behavior, except what one can already see by their presence.
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Salam
Q3359 Literal translation from islamawakenedO Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and (the) women (of) the believers to draw over themselves their outer garments. That (is) more suitable that they should be known and not harmed. And is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
