Women "striking their feet"
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Well, to display ornaments sounds like to deliberately show off your beauty, e.g. flirting behavior, except what one can already see by their presence.
Why do you dislay your beard?
But wearing something or having something, like arms, eyes, etc., is not displaying "yubdina" it appears, simply.
It is incrdible the caacity to comlicatte things DISPLAYED by tose who are unhappy that women should have some peace.
Why males do not just mind their own business.
What is co comlicated about sacrificing a heifer? Oh I see, we want her to be so mahy centimetres tall and so many long, ok. and hen we want her to be x months and n days old, and then that it has a star on the right ankle...
?For God's sake!Women in the second art of aya 24.31 are being told no to fall into the trap of relaying on their beauty or their physical for success in any sense. They should not make a display of themselves (for their own good) since that will make them slaves to lot of things, not the least the money they would have to spend on "beauty" roducts and "ornaments". They shhould just rely on their normal appearance, not the appearance of the heifer but of themselves, whatever that themselves may be at any given time or place.
Written by Furqan
Salam
And say to the believing women (that) they should "lower their gaze" and they should guard their chastity, and "not (to) display their adornment except what is apparent" of it. And let them their covers over their bosoms,
Now the Question is how do we define apparent? What is apparent according to The Book, is thighs apparent, is belly apparent, is women's backs apparent, shoulders apparent.Talking of given time or given place, this aya which is very popular and cited amongs hijabers, had a tima and pplace during the revelation of Qur'an where believrs, parrticular believing women were being harassed by the hypocrites, so in order to fight that this injonction was given to rotect women.
Now when the hijabers claim it, wht they are actually doing wanting to put on women's life a new condition for acceptance is claiming tht they are hyocrites, since that is the reason why that advice was given in this aya of the Qur'an, to rotect believing women from hypocrytes and rioters, a measure which might have been apriate at that time, but which may not have the same effect in other occasions.
I do no tknow either what the connection between this aya and the striking of feet is.
salaam
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Of course women's bodies can be a problem, it depends on what kind of life you would wish to live. Solutions to the problem without removing the naked women is to simply not go to wherever you might see them. You cannot get rid of them unless the society begins to say no about the phenomenon by showing distaste and frowning upon it. But if the community encourages the mode of living then obviously you will not be rid of the behavior. In Western societies many or most men appreciate the undressing since they are not fighting their instincts. The dressing up is done in order to help people who wish to fight their instincts, but is useless in a society where no one bothers.
A woman is also revealing her body instinctively because she wishes to show her freshness and fertile body, and adds makeup to enhance it further. It is then also a compulsive act, she does it because she listens to her instinctive drive without combating it.
The same goes for a man that for similar reasons might desire to wear short-sleeved tight T-shirts in order to reveal his masculinity in order to show his capability and strength. And he chooses his clothes in order to enhance his bodily beauty.
No one can deny it is because of their instincts. But people seem to accept the instinctive drive as something meant to be listened to. A truth is nevertheless that the instincts make us quite enslaved to our own bodies and not really free to think independently. Perhaps you cannot evade the instinct to eat, but you can control it. Same goes for the sex drive, you can control it even if you cannot be rid of it for as long as you reside in the body. For such as me the drive is just a pain in the rear end and I feel I have to live with it, while others might enjoy it because they allow themselves to. I feel enslaved only, like an unwilling spirit that has to submit to something I do not want.
Be well
AmenuelVery well put. You explained the wisdom behind my simplistic interpretation of the verse as an "action" that necessarily leads to an "Unwanted reaction".
Brilliant answer. Thank you.I advise some people to read and re-read MOF's post with an open mind. yes
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Why do you dislay your beard?
But wearing something or having something, like arms, eyes, etc., is not displaying "yubdina" it appears, simply.
It is incrdible the caacity to comlicatte things DISPLAYED by tose who are unhappy that women should have some peace.
Why males do not just mind their own business.
What is co comlicated about sacrificing a heifer? Oh I see, we want her to be so mahy centimetres tall and so many long, ok. and hen we want her to be x months and n days old, and then that it has a star on the right ankle...
?For God's sake!They shhould just rely on their normal appearance, not the appearance of the heifer but of themselves, whatever that themselves may be at any given time or place.
It sounds like you did not really read the sentence I wrote as I had intended it to be read. I was referring to what one does with their body except the normal being about. I offered an interpretation of the sectarian interpretation, which might not always work.
My beard is there because the hair on the skin insists on growing at a rapid rate, nearly as quick as that on top of my head. It is biologically programmed to do so. I could shave it off entirely but then I could be bald too as well. Right now I keep it as I would be keeping the hair on top of my head.
Women in the second art of aya 24.31 are being told no to fall into the trap of relaying on their beauty or their physical for success in any sense. They should not make a display of themselves (for their own good) since that will make them slaves to lot of things, not the least the money they would have to spend on "beauty" roducts and "ornaments".
I.e. they will be slaves to their own instinct that they wish to make themselves pretty for the sake of attraction, biologically programmed. It is in their bodily genes. That they waste money is just an addition to the problem. Men who buy expensive cars to impress on others also do the same and indirectly also waste money on vanity, and the core issue is that they use their instinct to buy these unnecessary cars and the secondary issue is that it causes them to have to labor harder in order to achieve their goal unless they are/were made rich in some way.
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Very well put. You explained the wisdom behind my simplistic interpretation of the verse as an "action" that necessarily leads to an "Unwanted reaction".
Brilliant answer. Thank you.I advise some people to read and re-read MOF's post with an open mind. yes
I would interpret "strike the feet to reveal ornaments" to be the typical feminine alluring walk in order to seem "sexy" which may cause people (primarily men) to pay attention to particularities in the female build. It is further increased if the female is wearing clothing that reveals a big proportion of skin, especially in locations of the body which is enhanced by the before-mentioned kind of walk. Revealed upper parts of legs (thighs), the private "middle parts", most of the torso including the cleft between the arm and breast could likely be seen as increasing the "revealed ornaments" by "striking the feet".
Not sure how much validity I give to the sectarian interpretation of Quran however. Every other word was chosen a wrongful definition to be used in the interpretation.
Be well
Amenuel -
Salam huruf
Q 6157
or you say, "If was revealed to us the Book surely we (would) have been better guided than them. "So verily has come to you clear proofs from your Lord and a Guidance and a Mercy". Then who (is) more unjust than (he) who denies (the) Verses (of) Allah, and turns away from them? We will recompense those who turn away from Our Signs (with) an evil punishment because they used to turn away. -
In 2431 Dharaba cannot mean "strike" either because the word does not mean to strike. The word means to "put forth" or "expose towards". "Be Khamira - henna" refers to the dress code outwards and obviously it refers to how one appears.
"and to be exposing with their dress..."
Daad-Ra-Ba = Propound as an example, put forth a parable, mention/declare/state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, set, impose, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, he made or caused to be or constituted.
To point or make a sign, mention or set forth (e.g. a parable/example), explain, make a way, excite/incite/urge/instigate, dispose/accommodate.
Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, becoming changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, something fermented/matured.
... on/in their traverse/openings/response"
Jiim-Waw-Ba = Make a hole in a thing, rend or tear a thing, perforate/pierce/bore, to cut a thing, hollow a thing out, traverse or cross, cut through by journeying, penetrate, reply or answer or respond, illuminate and render clear, to shield.
Jiim-Ya-Ba = to cut out a collar of a shirt, opening at the neck and bosom of a shirt, an opening in a shirt (e.g. where the head goes through or the sleeve), pocket (derived because Arabs often carry things within the bosom of a shirt), bosom, heart, place of entrance for a land/country, hollowed.
Could be walk concerning Jiim-Waw-Ba too. I would not trust the traditional pinpointing of roots but opt for a contextual search for what sounds more plausible in a rendition. Personally by no further analysis would say it speaks of the openings in a woman's dress, but not necessarily the cleavage but the revealing of skin overall wherever you have limbs coming out.
Obviously to be able to decipher the verse properly you would have to reinterpret the whole context surrounding the passage in order to understand more. Personally I have not focused on this chapter yet but I am unto another. But you can see how easy it is to expose the falsehood in interpretation because the sectarian interpretation does not hold water at all. It is easily exposed as false.
No matter how you interpret the phrase it refers to minimizing the attention you bring in the holes of your dress whether it is the collar or in the sleeves. I would say it refers to the "openings" in your clothing. As you can see today women as well as men minimize the amount of garment in order to reveal more of the "openings".
You also see that Jiim-Waw-Ba and Jiim-Ya-Ba are not so far away from each other considered the similar definitions. This is actually because these are not two different roots but one and the same but in different grammatical forms. This is the way you need to think when you decipher ancient Arabic. The references to definitions and roots in lexicons are not necessarily right.
Be well
Amenuel -
Salam huruf
Q 6157
or you say, "If was revealed to us the Book surely we (would) have been better guided than them. "So verily has come to you clear proofs from your Lord and a Guidance and a Mercy". Then who (is) more unjust than (he) who denies (the) Verses (of) Allah, and turns away from them? We will recompense those who turn away from Our Signs (with) an evil punishment because they used to turn away.Whom do you tke yourself for?
What does not agree with your clever and unfallible understanding or misunderstanding you threaten tking words of the Qur'an for your own profit?
That is no kind of useful debate.
Salaam
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Continuing on 2431 it says about the striking of feet
But if we refer to my previous post then Dharab does not mean "to strike" but to expose, i.e. it speaks of exposing their feet. Now exposing their feet does not make any sense to me. However, the word Ra-Ji-La does also refer to the act of walking. It means the passage might say "be exposing with their walk" which is pretty obvious to me and refers to in a woman's case to a female's alluring walk in order to be attractive in the eyes of a man. When you exaggerate your walk then you may be waggling in a way that could be attractive. It is usually a way for a woman to increase her beauty in our normal lives too if we observe the daily living.
Ra-Jiim-Lam = to go on foot, urge with foot, walk, tie by the feet, let (a female) suckle her young, be curly (hair), set free with his mother. rajjala - to comfort anyone, comb the hair, grant a respite. tarajjala - to go down without rope. rijlatun - vigour in walking. rijlun - foot, soldiers, good walker, tramp. arajil - hunters, pedestrian. rajulun - male human being, man, a person with heir. rajilun - foot, footmen (slow walkers). rijlain - two feet. arjul (pl.) - feet.
But like I said before, a serious person would reinterpret the whole segment of text without the sectarian bias included, because it might surely speak of many different things not apparent in the common rendition, not to mention and do not mean what the ancient clerics claimed causing quite many problems with their interpretation. If the interpretation still holds in some cases it is because the word is also in them and is the actual negator, such as in . The whole language of Arabic needs a complete reevaluation and I never claimed that I necessarily need to be the person doing it. Help is appreciated.
Be well
Amenuel -
It sounds like you did not really read the sentence I wrote as I had intended it to be read. I was referring to what one does with their body except the normal being about. I offered an interpretation of the sectarian interpretation, which might not always work.
My beard is there because the hair on the skin insists on growing at a rapid rate, nearly as quick as that on top of my head. It is biologically programmed to do so. I could shave it off entirely but then I could be bald too as well. Right now I keep it as I would be keeping the hair on top of my head.
I.e. they will be slaves to their own instinct that they wish to make themselves pretty for the sake of attraction, biologically programmed. It is in their bodily genes. That they waste money is just an addition to the problem. Men who buy expensive cars to impress on others also do the same and indirectly also waste money on vanity, and the core issue is that they use their instinct to buy these unnecessary cars and the secondary issue is that it causes them to have to labor harder in order to achieve their goal unless they are/were made rich in some way.
Women do not hve tht instinct, women are taught to behave like that, becaue they are under a society in which raw force rules in last instnce, so they resort to something that might avert force from them, in general terms. But that is no instinct, I should know. That is just a survival tacticwhich is available to them but which in a society with some moral values should not be necessary.
Then once taught that women re under the obligation to attract or die (put in a slogan) they do it automatically. Some more ansiouxly tha others, but I reject that that is an instinct. Many women hate it and submit to it out of need, pure need. Besides those demands of society on women to be attractive are usually unhealthy in the most hysical way, like awful shoes ad other things.
It is an appeal to independence and to not be used what the Qur'an does, not against insctinct because that is no instinct. May be mating is an instinct but be attractive no matter what is no instinct at all y is an overwhelming social pressure. Yes even today, very much so.
As to the beard right, just likehis, bosson buttocks etc. it is there it is not a shame nor is it an exhibition item.
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Salam
It's an aya of Allah to ME and all mankind and jinn. Allah is eternal his Word is eternal. According to His/Allah book, this/that is The book/al-kitab no doubt in it GUIDANCE to mutaqeen/defensive/fear. Regarding Rasool Allah he was/is not send except to be obeyed and WHOME ever it reaches.He was/is sent to ALAMEEN/the worlds of all time. We are given the stories of the yore, so we take guidance.
What I learned from Rasool Allah The Book of Allah is for All times
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Women do not hve tht instinct, women are taught to behave like that, becaue they are under a society in which raw force rules in last instnce, so they resort to something that might avert force from them, in general terms. But that is no instinct, I should know. That is just a survival tacticwhich is available to them but which in a society with some moral values should not be necessary.
Then once taught that women re under the obligation to attract or die (put in a slogan) they do it automatically. Some more ansiouxly tha others, but I reject that that is an instinct. Many women hate it and submit to it out of need, pure need. Besides those demands of society on women to be attractive are usually unhealthy in the most hysical way, like awful shoes ad other things.
It is an appeal to independence and to not be used what the Qur'an does, not against insctinct because that is no instinct. May be mating is an instinct but be attractive no matter what is no instinct at all y is an overwhelming social pressure. Yes even today, very much so.
As to the beard right, just likehis, bosson buttocks etc. it is there it is not a shame nor is it an exhibition item.
Come on huruf. You cannot deny that we have instincts in order to express ourselves in various advantageous ways? It is not only about sex appeal but also through our possessions etc. These are all of this world's vanities.
If you do not see it as "an exhibition item" then do not make it into such item.
Then once taught that women re under the obligation to attract or die (put in a slogan) they do it automatically. Some more ansiouxly tha others, but I reject that that is an instinct. Many women hate it and submit to it out of need, pure need. Besides those demands of society on women to be attractive are usually unhealthy in the most hysical way, like awful shoes ad other things.
You are yourselves seeking to be attractive, you do it instinctively even if no one obliges you to. You are doing it so you are socially accepted, but then the question is whether you actually need to do it.
If it is not instinctive then why does many women who let loose completely enjoy presenting themselves in an alluring way, with an alluring walk?
Do not be blind to the world in which you reside.
And of course its all about instincts, you reside within an animal body and will act like one, if you are not seriously considering to distance yourself from it.
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Man of reason what am I making an exhibition item of, your beard? What are you talking about now?
You say
"You cannot deny that we have instincts in order to express ourselves in various advantageous ways?"
You are moving the osts, I have not denied that our pecies hs instincts, what is more, I have mentionned, mating. But I amdenying that in women the ush to be attractive is an instinct. And I continue to deny it. Somewomen may be more conscious of their looks, but that would be an individual thing, and if heyare ambitious and want to get somethig and thik that by being very atractive they may attain it may do so, but the instinct would not be to be attractive, but the assion to possess that you have mentionned and that I have not said it does not exist, but I was saying the copulsion to be ttractive in women is not instinct. Any woman can attract what she needs without doing anything for it, it is not like if it was some instinct for the species to carry on. The social pressur to be beautiful to do something to attract is unbearable. and is only endured because since the very befinning we are fed it, everywhere all the time. The miracle is that there are women who can manage to shake it off. That is miracle and I only can exlain it because they may have an instinct that keeps them from that.
But I know there are around many conceptions of what women are which some people are very fond of and they will see them whether they exist or not. Was it an instinct of chinese women to put on shoes much smaller than their feet to be pretty. Was it an instinc to put on corsets which hindered breath and made them fainta century ago?
No suffering on account of attracting is no instinct but masochistic strain very purposefully instilled on women (and other people) so that they feelguilty for everything.
And pplease clear tht about what was I making an exhibition of.
Salaam
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You deny women strive to look attractive? Well, I am not exactly saying you have scientific research and studies to back you up. Your gender does instinctively seek to gain confirmation of your appeal. Men has it too, but it works differently.
Societal pressure is another parameter and it enhances the whole thing. It is what has led Western societies to extreme bodily fixation. But it is not like you can blame men alone for this. Women had their liberation a few decades ago and this is how they expressed their liberation to do whatever they liked with their bodies. Congratulations I say.
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Why do you change what I say and why do you have to push so that sombody is blamed for something. I couldn't care less about who is to blame, what I want and I think anybody wants is to fix whatever there is to fix.
I said that craving and exhibiting for attention is not an instinct of women. You think otherwise, fine, that is your business, but I see that it is not so and that you do not understnd womenor at least many of them. Why should you look for some science studies when there are plenty of peole around you can study firs hand starting with yourself.
If you choose o believe that that is genetically imbued in women, again you may believe whatever you like, but th facts is that the Qur'an does not seak about such an instinct and even while advising women on the behaviour does not say or hint at anything of the kind, quite the opposity seems rather confident that it is not so.
Salaam
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I said that craving and exhibiting for attention is not an instinct of women.
Salam. I can agree with Huruf from observation of different cultures and even children from babies to adulthood. I myself have daughters that have grown to adulthood. Craving and exhibiting for attention is something learn or absorbed from the environment. In toddlers you hardly see the instinct to be sexual and the exaggeration of movement is absent. When they become teenagers this is where things mostly change because of peer pressure and the environment is what force them into their behaviors which one may mistook as instinct.
You can see from national geographic videos, even those naked folks in the jungle do not necessarily walk in a sexual way, they only do so when there is an event where there could be specific activities that ends up in sexual activities. Otherwise both sexes appears very boring on television although they are naked - and I admittedly sat tru more than hrs waiting patiently for any exciting events to happen. Being primitive is as near to instincts can be and it appears the female are a boring lot just like the males.
Salam
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Why do you change what I say and why do you have to push so that sombody is blamed for something. I couldn't care less about who is to blame, what I want and I think anybody wants is to fix whatever there is to fix.
I said that craving and exhibiting for attention is not an instinct of women. You think otherwise, fine, that is your business, but I see that it is not so and that you do not understnd womenor at least many of them. Why should you look for some science studies when there are plenty of peole around you can study firs hand starting with yourself.
If you choose o believe that that is genetically imbued in women, again you may believe whatever you like, but th facts is that the Qur'an does not seak about such an instinct and even while advising women on the behaviour does not say or hint at anything of the kind, quite the opposity seems rather confident that it is not so.
Salaam
I wrote of what studies show and not belief. Women do have certain drives which affect their behavior. What you take as shame is your statement.
Humans have a drive to be recognized and to use appearance is included in that instinct. It is not so damned hard to see.
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Much is about the instinct of imitation. Humans are driven to imitate others. And they wish to be accepted socially so they will conform to what is standard and imitate behavior.
We do have hormones and they will affect our behavior.
In the end we are in no more than instinctive beasts controlled by a more advanced spirit.
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Quran chapter 24 verse 31 contains this
Yusuf Ali interpretation
While common interpretation state that the striking is about the old "bracelets" that women used to wear on their feets and made sounds.....Others think it's "separate" their feet/thighs (whatever) while sitting, or catwalking....I think the meaning is nearer to something that would actually make the action of "striking the feets" related to drawing attention specifically to their "ornaments".
Looking at this arabic-arabic dictionnary , "dharb" can easily refer to "movement". i.e "dharaba" in the sea would be moved in the sea / swimmed.
Now it would make sense, that some sort of movements made by women that would automatically draw attention to their "ornaments".
Obvious thing would be some bracelet, separate their feet, erotical dancing, belly dancing, and any miley cyrus kind of movement.
What do you guys think ?
A thought about this verse. I have always been of the opinion that behaving in a sensual manner is forbidden as this attracts attention, creates lust and it becomes the reason that leads to worse/sinful situations.
Everyone seems to have a different opinion about the meaning "striking their feet", something to do with body movements(moving some body parts), which will create lust.
What I am trying to understand is that how do we come to the conclusion that such actions are the cause of lust and not an ill mentality of the society. Just to give you a few examples
-Showing the belly in western countries creates lust in people that see it, we can agree this happens in general.
-Showing bell in south indian countries (wearing sari) it's not cause of lust
-Having a big butt it's considered a women is fertile/good for babies in south african(and many other countries),in western countries it's a cause for lust.
-Nudity it's considered a cause for lust in most countries yet in several tribes nudity does not cause lust whatsoever.How do we know where to set the bar then?
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The question of lust is handled in the first part of ths aya and in aya 24.30.
One thing is to guard private parts and the other thing is to guard our look.
it is not for others to guard our looks or our private parts it is for each person for his or her own benefit.
The laas and longest part of 24.31 is for women not to become entrapped in their possible physical charms, either natural or contrived, as a social tool.
Salaam
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So, technically, a girl in a swimsuit is following the Quran as she's guarding the necessary private parts (breast, hip).