Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
-
wow You should be ashamed.
becoz i m against homosex police
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
My attempts to clarify are in red. My previous posts are in purple.
Four points for Abdul Hadi
- Please clarify
Lot (Peace upon all Prophets) said that the people did an evil not seen before. Since he wasn?t addressed as being wrong, and homosexual acts in organized societies existed long before the people of Lot, this indicates that homosexual acts are not the main issue here.
If Prophets are addressed when they are wrong, because the Prophet Lot was not addressed when he said the people committed an immorality such as none of the worlds have ever done before, we can take his statement at face value. Sodom and Gomorrah (the towns of the people of Lot) were destroyed somewhere between 2067-1953 BCE. Homosexuality existed in organized society in Mesopotamia since at least 3000 BCE--around a thousand years before the destruction of the people of Lot. In less organized groups, homosexual acts occurred over 12,000 years ago. This is found in existing archaeological evidence. It follows that if Lot was correct, based on the existing archaeological evidence the immorality that he was addressing could not be homosexual acts.
- Please clarify
If one is being absolute in linking unrelated patterns, it could be argued that any society other than the people of Lot is a unique pattern and unrelated to the statements made by the Prophet Lot. It can be one way or the other, but not both at the same time.
You had stated that one cannot link an unrelated pattern. The people of Lot are unique and linking them (and what the Prophet Lot said to them) to any other people is linking an unrelated pattern.
- I intentionally used the word 'refuted' as the inclusion of males to "what is beyond that" cannot be linguistically proven. It would stand as a major rhetorical anomaly if we were to expand the scope of the verse to include males.
Cannot be linguistically proved is not ~quite~ the same as concretely disproved. How can a major anomaly disprove, when major anomalies exist within creation? Without discounting the major rhetorical anomaly, the inclusion or exclusion remains neither proven nor disproven.
- The retribution incurred by L's people was as a direct consequence of their enticing his guests. The fact that his wife was also punished is unrelated to this particular event. I should also point out that the marital status of those who enticed L's guests is unknown. As such, we cannot rule out?linguistically?the possibility of their being blinded purely on account of their homosexual tendencies.
The possibility exists. I was referring to the following ayat, where the people of Lot were destroyed. If the guests of Lot were women would the behavior of the people have been acceptable then? hmm
424 states ?beyond this category? in the same way that anything larger than a specified measurement is beyond a distance. If the specified measurement is one mile, then two miles is beyond this distance. Two million miles is beyond this distance. Two million light years is also beyond this distance. Way beyond is still beyond.
If one accepts the Prophet Lot's statement at face value, it flies in the face of physical evidence if he was talking about homosexual acts; in other words, he wasn't about homosexual acts. If one doesn't accept the Prophet Lot's statement at face value, then it is unclear what exactly/specifically he was condemning.
If one cannot link unrelated patterns, then what the Prophet Lot said to his people applied only to those people--it has no basis for other humans in other societies or times. If, on the other hand, one can link unrelated patterns, then homosexual relationships are clearly beyond the restrictions mentioned and thusly allowed.
http//www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_attitude_wenham.html
Excerpt From iconographic evidence dating from 3000 BC to the Christian era it is clear that homosexual practice was an accepted part of the Mesopotamian scene. This conclusion is confirmed by many literary and legal texts in which homosexual activity is mentioned.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
- Please clarify
-
In its original tongue, homosexuality is a definite no no in the Quran whether your broken moral compass likes it or not
Lot's argument -against homophiles- alone kicks butt.
The human is not designed for homosexual copulation, but it does not hurt someone else whether a person does engage in such unless it is forced upon them.
Homosexuality is not a crime or anything in particular, but it is a personal failure in engaging with something which is not productive. However thinking about the same, it is failure to have sex without doing it for reproduction purposes in a heterosexual relationship too, so the anatomical differences is just about such misfit.
Why someone is homosexual is caused because of something your sectarian interpretation of Quran overlooks. It signifies a strong attachment to the bodily in conjunction with a past body of the opposite sex which had a strong impact on the soul of this person.
A wise person who happens to be homosexual would have to learn to refrain from the vain bodily interaction at all.
But for the rest of us who are not homosexually inclined should just let these people be and they are not more lost than most other people. If you look to convince them you got a lot more to convince than being upset about those souls.
Pure homosexuality is also not inclined to spread because some people are accepted to publicly display their gender preference because if one has a body functioning according to its hormones it would naturally be aroused by the opposite sex due to its features. The homosexual preference will not change during a person's lifetime as you cannot change the body in which you are.
There is in common society today "professionals" who argue gender roles are learned by the environment rather than their physical body and its hormones and those people are equally lost in their minds as someone who accepts their homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a test to overcome, but you or anyone else is not allowed to beat down on those people or otherwise you are showing your weak spiritual development yourselves.
I am not approving of homosexuality at all, but I am not a bully and I respect people born with an inherent problem. There are many homosexuals who have a lot of mental problems due to their gender identity and they honestly wish they were not like that. There are people calling themselves honest Muslims who call out saying they recognize themselves as homosexual. Will you unrighteously freeze those people out because of their confession of a condition they would not like themselves?
The root of the problem is not arousal to the same gender but vain sexual relations. The soul is asexual and it does not have a sex and you are therefore neither male or female in your spirit but the imprint on your being can make a conflicting gender identity to arise. Normally the gender identity is given by the actual sex of your current body.
Be well
Amenuel -
And one thing I wished to convey was is it is equally wrong to gain a strong gender identity matching the one of your body as it is to have a mismatching one. It would not matter much. If you accept your beastly impulses you are not better than the other one.
My suggestion is that you focus on improving yourself than whining about the problems of others and how immoral it is.
In it raising your emotions and you become angered in yourself due to them being homosexual you have "sinned" more than they are doing. You seeking to defeat them is just according to your instinct. Your entire reaction smells of instinctive behavior.
Their homosexual relations goes under the directive not to engage in illicit sex, but how many of those directives are you not breaking on a daily basis?
Your aggression towards those sinners is equally sinful and you do nothing to help them. Perhaps you would treat them poorly because of that. I have a feeling you would not treat them as yourself and therefore you would even break two of "God's" directives so far in our discussion here. It means you are more sinful than them who break one directive and that in your bullying.
Please think about things before you act. Use your brain.
Be well
Amenuel -
The human is not designed for homosexual copulation,
BUT IT DOES NOT HURT someone else whether a person does ENGAGE IN SUCH
unless it is forced upon them. Homosexuality is NOT A CRIME or anything in particular ....I don't think that sanity gives a duck what conjecture has to say
The Quran explicitly disgraces sexual perversion; and that's what matters here.
If you have faith that such a sodomy-based praxis is not a punishable misconduct, then go ahead and practice what you preach.
-
when original verses i posted , in which you really had chance to prove your said claim u also failed to carry on discussion i think when a player of chess have no more moves he better try to do a stalmate draw what you try to do it here... but a author of quran seems to make checkmate here to anyboody who is claiming homosex with the lens of quran...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609009.msg399199#msg399199
Do you mean that "26165 Of all the creatures in the worlds, you approach males." is an original verse?
If so than you have a good point, even approaching animals would be no problem as long as they are female animals.But I would also have a very good point with this translation
5320 What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?I really like to discuss quran verses but not with somebody who thinks he is playing a game of chess and certainly not with somebody who does not even know the rules of the game.
FYI when a chessplayer does not have any legal moves left then he/she is not trying to get stalemated but he/she already is (or mated).screaming like a loser... that what clearly show someone defeat when they start screaming or giving up on anything...
you've lost your dignity, pathetic yuck
-
Homosexuality is defined as attraction to the same sex. It doesn't matter if the attraction is acted upon or not.
ALL known species that are capable of sexual reproduction also engage in homosexuality. This includes gnats and mosquitoes as well as larger and more complex animals.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
I don't know if you're homosexual or you have some other reasons, but I thought that this topic is clear.
Anyways, I won't reply to all what you wrote, just a few things I saw, when I started to read your post. And I don't have time to read 30 pages, so I won't argue with others either. But, hear what I'll tell about quoted...- We cannot use definitions outside the Qur'an and then come to the Qur'an for answers about them. For example, if some scientist define something as "black hole", we cannot expect to find his definition in the Qur'an, because
a) he has to use haqq (reality) in his definition
b) his definition has to include all about defined
c) his definition has to connect all of the haqq about it
d) his definition has to be haqq as whole - We cannot follow rules for animals, otherwise ahadith like one according to which is allowed to people to follow behaviour of monkeys about stonning adulter. The other question is if this "scientific claim" is real (haqq).
- There is no word "compulsion" in that ayet. And about "deen" is this...
The People of Loot a.s. had their own deen, which was different from Loot's deen. Proof for this is in ayet 1567 where the word "El-Medina", as in all other ayets, means "time and place of deen". This is also a proof that his people was in several places (ie. towns, cities), if we wanna think.
The other, very important thing, is that all of this was about males from Loot's people (qawm is used for males only, and another proof is "Loot's brothers" in 5013). The question is why his wife was punished?
Allah swt is sending punishment only on those who're rejecting (kefere) His deen and accepting/making and following some other deen.
- We cannot use definitions outside the Qur'an and then come to the Qur'an for answers about them. For example, if some scientist define something as "black hole", we cannot expect to find his definition in the Qur'an, because
-
is not a valid argument !
Would you please explain taking into account PRONOUMS with no sexist grammatical prejudice? Excuse me but my logic has arrived to its limit.
I am a good listener, though
If you can't figure out why on your own, then I'm afraid this discussion is over.
What was this? &
Those who are anti-LGBT have provided good proof from Quran alone, that God is against homosexual acts,
while the pro-LGBT members haven't provided with one single solid proof from Quran alone, have distorted the verses to fit their desires (whether it be to fit their worldview or to please the rejecters to give Islam a "good image".), and have thousands of their own interpretations while they can't come to one conclusion.
what? when?
Was I reading another thread? brickwall
hmm
Relaaaaaaax and let's do something about tyranny and wars and poor and homeless and plutocracy and oppression because homosexual people is not the people bringing THE EVIL to our world. You don't even know if they are!!! We could learn much more from them.
And it is soooooooooooo important for God that those gays get punished that He forgot to reveal a chapter for their eternal punishment
Maybe it is then up to us to punish them... voodoo Of course they are so mean being born different elektro elektro elektro being the ones corrupting our perfect world jedi
Yes I am uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuusing sarcasm!
Have a great day!!!
group
-
Now I have a question for you, tell me how will you feel if you were a fish who had a son and that son was a lion and the lion raped a tree?
What kind of question is this? Are you questioning my logical reasoning, Mr. Bender? >
It is obvious how I would feel and what I would do!
It's all fault of those licentious trees there existing in the world showing their bark soooooo shameless and provoking my poor lion! elektro
And of course there is only one solution
CUT THE TREES OFF
TREES ARE EVIL
police
Note this could be fftopic or not...
-
Do you mean that "26165 Of all the creatures in the worlds, you approach males." is an original verse?
?Do ye come unto (ie. lie with) the males of the tellurians (ie. humans),
and forsake what your Lord has proportioned for ye to be your mates/spouses ?!
Nay, ye are a transgressive folk!? Said Lot, in the Quran.If so than you have a good point, even approaching animals would be no problem as long as they are female animals.
Straw man arguments are invalid.
But I would also have a very good point with this translation
5320 What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?Ignoratio elenchi with quote mining.
I really like to discuss quran verses but not with somebody who thinks he is playing a game of chess and certainly not with somebody who does not even know the rules of the game. FYI when a chessplayer does not have any legal moves left then he/she is not trying to get stalemated but he/she already is (or mated). you've lost your dignity, pathetic yuck
Interesting life story! More of that please.
-
What kind of question is this? Are you questioning my logical reasoning, Mr. Bender? >(
It is obvious how I would feel and what I would do!
It's all fault of those licentious trees there existing in the world showing their bark soooooo shameless and provoking my poor lion! elektro
And of course there is only one solution
CUT THE TREES OFF
TREES ARE EVIL
You would have a point if the incident takes place in the winter when they are shamelessly naked, but I am talking about a tree in the summer.
-
Do ye come unto (ie. lay with) the males of the tellurians (ie. humans), and forsake what your Lord has proportioned for ye to be your mates ?! Nay, ye are indeed an intrusive folk !
Straw man argument.
There are no brackets in the original, but you can put in brackets wherever you wish to make your point.
So "Rabbu al3alameen" means "The Rab of the tellurians (ie. humans)"? interesting.Ignoratio elenchi and quote mining.
I am just a simple human male of the tellurians who speaks only dutch, a little bit of broken english and some berber. If you do not mind then try to lower your level of geniusness so that I can also understand what you are saying.
But my feeling tells me (again) that your use of difficult language is nothing more than dodging.Interesting life story! More of that please.
Only if you make me again a nice piece of art. Do you have a latin speaking cow with glasses in your collection? Would love to see that.
-
Wisdom at its best, Bender.
-
Relaaaaaaax and let's do something about tyranny and wars and poor and homeless and plutocracy and oppression because homosexual people is not the people bringing THE EVIL to our world. You don't even know if they are!!! We could learn much more from them.
And it is soooooooooooo important for God that those gays get punished that He forgot to reveal a chapter for their eternal punishment
Finally alhamdullilah someone gets it! Allah (SWT) bless dear sister.
-
There are no brackets in the original,
It's a translation !
but you can put in brackets wherever you wish to make your point.
Duh! done so already ???
So "Rabbu al3alameen" means "The Rab of the tellurians (ie. humans)"? interesting.
Yes, and "rabbu" too you should translate to english.
I am just a simple human male of the tellurians who speaks only dutch, a little bit of broken english and some berber.
Good for you
If you do not mind then try to lower your level of geniusness so that I can also understand what you are saying.
I don't have to lower my IQ to teach you what a logical fallacy is !
But my feeling tells me (again) that your use of difficult language is nothing more than dodging.
What difficult language ?! You illiterate or something ?
Do you have a latin speaking cow with glasses in your collection? Would love to see that.
Latin no, but berber speaking cows are to be found. If you wish to buy one barato, try a flemish nightclub.
-
you've lost your dignity, pathetic yuck
hmm so here is the master piece of dignity by you... pathetic on its height .. ignore
-
Do you mean that "26165 Of all the creatures in the worlds, you approach males." is an original verse?
If so than you have a good point, even approaching animals would be no problem as long as they are female animals.yes you understand now... male human and female human
as well as male animals with female animals produce offsprings..atleast animals are more inline with nature compared to humans .. they know that lion dnt have to rape with tree, rotfl the lioness is there for lion and a lion dnt have to sex with lion rotfl
aww i think there is also a sex detrmination in plants if i can recall it correctly ...
your own reasonings of LGBT digging the grave of your said claim again and again and again...
I really like to discuss quran verses but not with somebody who thinks he is playing a game of chess and certainly not with somebody who does not even know the rules of the game.
FYI when a chessplayer does not have any legal moves left then he/she is not trying to get stalemated but he/she already is (or mated).thats what the quality of this game .. losing king have 21 moves when he left alone ... lets have some more moves ... even king is already cornered plantey of times but some kings like to get checkmate again and again.. jedi
(27551)
a-innakum
Why do you
(27552)
latatna
approach
(27553)
l-rijla
the men
(27554)
shahwatan
(with) lust
(27555)
min
instead of
(27556)
dni
instead of
(27557)
l-nisi
the women?Indeed, you are an ignorant people. (27/55)
you always welcome to bring your faulty interpreatation for this if you have any objection with this move...
-
And of course there is only one solution
CUT THE TREES OFF
hahahahaha rotfl rotfl the best solution... ...
ok what you will gona do with the animal who is is get raped by human... are we allowed to halal it then eat...?
like lamb or goat or cow..
-
Ignoratio elenchi with quote mining.
a superbia initium sumpsit omnis perditio nope
Sofisms are cool when properly used... Wisdom and knowledge are very different things.
hahahahaha rotfl rotfl the best solution... ...
ok what you will gona do with the animal who is is get raped by human... are we allowed to halal it then eat...?
like lamb or goat or cow..
Of course not! We cover the goat with burka and we are all fineeeeeeeeee peace
rotflFinally alhamdullilah someone gets it! Allah (SWT) bless dear sister.
Aw you group
God bless you! sun
-
It's a translation !
Duh! done so already ???
Yes, and "rabbu" too you should translate to english.
Good for you
I don't have to lower my IQ to teach you what a logical fallacy is !
What difficult language ?! You illiterate or something ?
Latin no, but berber speaking cows are to be found. If you wish to buy one barato, try a flemish nightclub.
The fact still remains that you have absolutely nothing to bring to the 3 verses, exept some expensive latin words, speaking animal pics, and insults to female forum members.
