Quran and Pedophilia
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Interpretation by Dr. Shabbir Ahmed
To my humble understanding this verse gives us the meaning of salat and tasbeeh. It starts with "Do you not realize..." Can anyone realize how the birds and other creations do salat and tasbeeh if these terms are understood as contact prayer and glorification? I dont know if any creation other than "Muslims" have a hadith corpus to find out details of contact prayer and glorification. What Dr.Shabbir Ahmed has interpreted makes a better sense of the term salat and tasbeeh (mission and strife) in this verse. And of course it is my view and everyone has the right to have their own view.Than you so much for the instructive note. I share this view of salat as mission / contribution to the creation's balance, but mostly I agree with your last point peace
In conclusion, maturity is not an absolute condition for girl to marry. Therefore, there is no prohibition to marry immature girl according to the Quran per se.
Here we go again with the same....
According to you the woman's / girl's agreement is not needed either.... We have superior men's who will look after our lives and destinies. And if you are a little girls, what can I say? You can perfectly know by then if you want someone for marriage or not...
So lucky you are, men/boys, you have a Quran full of rights only for yourselves giveup
I know D, though thats not what I meant.
Salam
Sorry rotfl First I thought you were jocking and you said i misunderstood and then I tought oh maybe he actually does not know and i misunderstood again brickwall Not your fault, i am not in my best moment brickwall
peace
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As I stated before, for girl who doesn't yet reach maturity age can be married by her guardian that in most cases is her father.
What I bold at verse below is guardian of the woman. Relevance of guardian in this case of course because the woman hasn't reach age of maturity (or in some cases because she has weak understanding).
In conclusion, maturity is not an absolute condition for girl to marry. Therefore, there is no prohibition to marry immature girl according to the Quran per se.
Whaaaaaaaaaaat
There is not an ?age for marriage? in Quran?
Maybe Quran wants you to use COMMON SENSE. brickwall
The following are from QURAN
2458 O you who believe, let those among you who are committed to by your oath, and those who have not attained puberty (hulum), request your permission regarding three times before the dawn contact prayer, and when you put off your garments from the noon time, and after the evening contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
2459 And when your children reach puberty (hulum), then let them seek your permission like it was sought by those before them. God thus clarifies His revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.If there is an age for asking permission in these cases, why there is not an age for marriage? Is marriage less serious?
There is also an age for maturity and finantial independence of the indivual, and it is not even equal to puberty as you have to "determine their comprehension". Puberty is not the only requirement
46 And test the orphans when they reach puberty, then, if you have determined from them comprehension, then give them their money, and do not deliberately consume it wastefully or quickly before they grow up.
But there is not for marriage?
But actually Wakas wrote it better with great quotes and Quran references in the following
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm
But the most important
6140 Losers are those who have killed their children foolishly, without knowledge, and they forbade what God had granted them by lying about God. They have strayed and they were not guided.
And marrying a child you are killing a child's soul.
peace
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And if you divorce them before you have touched them, and you have already appointed for them a marriage-portion, then one-half of what you have appointed, unless it be they make remission, or he makes remission in whose hand is the knot of marriage; yet that you should remit is nearer to godfearing. Forget not to be bountiful one towards another. Surely God sees the things you do. Q 2237
own accord; I do not desire to' press hard 'upon thee. Thou shalt assuredly find me, if God wills, one of the righteous.' Q 2827No guardian of any woman, woman not child, can arrange a marriage without her consent. No man can marry a woman without her consent. It is upon him to make sure that she consents. And in the aya you quoted where does it say that it is her guardian? It does no say that. He may merely be an attorney or some other commissionned. And even if he is a guardan he cannot contrat a marriage for the woman without her consent.
Muhsana is a woman who has de legal capacity of consent. And the Qur'an tells clearly that men should marry anybody acknowledging and abiding by the capacity of cosent of the woman. No man can legally marry any woman according to the Qur'an except by her legal consent and to be able to give legal consent you do have to actully have such capacity.
The Qur'an is nto a free for all to catch whatever you can get away with.Salaam
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peace quranflea,
Note your baseless claims/assumptions (bold and red)
As I stated before, for girl who doesn't yet reach maturity age can be married by her guardian that in most cases is her father.
What I bold at verse below is guardian of the woman. Relevance of guardian in this case of course because the woman hasn't reach age of maturity (or in some cases because she has weak understanding).
And if you divorce them before you have touched them, and you have already appointed for them a marriage-portion, then one-half of what you have appointed, unless it be they make remission, or he makes remission in whose hand is the knot of marriage; yet that you should remit is nearer to godfearing. Forget not to be bountiful one towards another. Surely God sees the things you do. Q 2237
You can also read in the Quran a story when Musa's father in law married his daughter to Musa. From the narration of the story we know that the bond is just made between them two.
He said, 'I desire to marry thee to one of these my two daughters, on condition that thou hirest thyself to me for eight years. If thou completest ten, that shall be of thy own accord; I do not desire to' press hard 'upon thee. Thou shalt assuredly find me, if God wills, one of the righteous.' Q 2827
See what Nun pointed out also.
Compare your above interpretation to the irrefutable evidenced conclusion of
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htmThe only good thing about your post is it perfectly demonstrates the baseless claims/assumptions (and at best, indirect reasoning) one has to make in order to justify such a view.
Me? I prefer solid reasoning/evidence.
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As I stated before, for girl who doesn't yet reach maturity age can be married by her guardian that in most cases is her father.
What I bold at verse below is guardian of the woman. Relevance of guardian in this case of course because the woman hasn't reach age of maturity (or in some cases because she has weak understanding).
And if you divorce them before you have touched them, and you have already appointed for them a marriage-portion, then one-half of what you have appointed, unless it be they make remission, or he makes remission in whose hand is the knot of marriage; yet that you should remit is nearer to godfearing. Forget not to be bountiful one towards another. Surely God sees the things you do. Q 2237
You can also read in the Quran a story when Musa's father in law married his daughter to Musa. From the narration of the story we know that the bond is just made between them two.
He said, 'I desire to marry thee to one of these my two daughters, on condition that thou hirest thyself to me for eight years. If thou completest ten, that shall be of thy own accord; I do not desire to' press hard 'upon thee. Thou shalt assuredly find me, if God wills, one of the righteous.' Q 2827
In conclusion, maturity is not an absolute condition for girl to marry. Therefore, there is no prohibition to marry immature girl according to the Quran per se.
I have a genuine question. I hope you don't mind. Are you here to troll Quran followers? It seems you joined this place somewhere around 2013, but you are not studying the Book. I certainly haven't seen any Quran followers who live by it skipping contemplation to stick to the sectarians' interpreted verses.
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They were women of marriageable age not underage girls
I don't think that word "mar'at" itself indicating that the female is in marriageable age or not. Anyway, my point by quoted verse 2827 and also 2237 was to show that there are two possible person who will act as party of marriage contract on female side, i.e. the woman itself, or her guardian (wali).
46 and test ye of the bereaved until when attained they of the marriage so if perceive you from them right way of/rational so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs and not thou eat/consume ye it wastefully and hastily of lest/that grow up they of and who be ample of so should refrain and who be poor of so let eat/consume in the fair manner so when deliver you to them wealth theirs so witnesses ye of upon them and sufficient in/by the god reckoner of
46 indicates that Quran recognize marriageable age which merely a social concept. God didn't create it, He only show us that He know there is such concept in society. As I stated before, determining the minimum age of marry is just common in most societies/countries. Our common sense agree that marriage is not for too low age person, thus its requirement need to be regulated.
However, if let's say a society believes that the lowest age for a girl to marry is 13, then when a man marries a 12 y/o girl through her father, he and the girl father are broke social consensus (or maybe state law), but we can't say that they broke Quran 46. It's just unrelated. God didn't state that one who under certain age is forbidden from marriage in that verse, even the "marriageable age" itself is not His creation, it's just a social concept!
621 and whom more unjust than whom has fabricated about the god lie of or deny in signs his surely he not succeeds the wrongdoing
If you impose saying that God prohibit girl under certain age for marry, which in fact there is no verse that solidly supports such opinion, therefore the verse above is for you.
According to you the woman's / girl's agreement is not needed either.... We have superior men's who will look after our lives and destinies. And if you are a little girls, what can I say? You can perfectly know by then if you want someone for marriage or not...
So lucky you are, men/boys, you have a Quran full of rights only for yourselves giveup
Woman consent is needed when she act as party in the marriage contract. But when her father or her guardian (wali) who act as party in the marriage contract (because she hasn't reach her adulthood) then it is her father/guardian consent that is legally needed. That is just simple legal thought. Nevertheless, a wise father/guardian surely will figure out whether his daughter agree with his plan or not.
Actually it's not about gender, but about involving immature person in a contract. The same apply in case of a 19 y/o girl and 7 y/o girl making legal contract to be a movie star. The first one will signed the contract by herself, and for the second one it is her father/guardian who will signed the contract.
Whaaaaaaaaaaat o
There is not an ?age for marriage? in Quran?
Maybe Quran wants you to use COMMON SENSE. brickwall
The following are from QURAN
If there is an age for asking permission in these cases, why there is not an age for marriage? Is marriage less serious?
What maybe will make you jump out of your seat is there is no prohibition to smoke next to nuclear reactor in Quran! rotfl
It's so easy to pick example of some issues out there that is more serious than some of what is written in Quran. Please don't think like that anymore. God rules on His book whatever He want to rule, not whatever we might think important.
No guardian of any woman, woman not child, can arrange a marriage without her consent. No man can marry a woman without her consent. It is upon him to make sure that she consents. And in the aya you quoted where does it say that it is her guardian? It does no say that. He may merely be an attorney or some other commissionned. And even if he is a guardan he cannot contrat a marriage for the woman without her consent.
See my answer above.
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I see some people here still trapped in error way of thinking which I think should be eliminated completely when we choose to become a "Quran only" muslim.
Imagine a conversation between a non-muslim with a muslim like this
Non-muslim Do we allow to give coke to a baby according to Quran?
Muslim I don't find specific verse about that
Non-muslim OMG! so muslims are allowed to give coke to they baby? how can Quran doesn't forbid such dangerous practice? We know it can harm a baby badly right? Quran is so evil!
Muslim (in his mind) It so awful! it's a shame! There should be a verse that ban such thing. I have to find one! or... maybe I can force a verse as if it support the opinion of not letting a baby drink coke.You can find error way of thinking on conversation above right? You may change "give coke to a baby" with "texting while driving" etc, etc. The same error way of thinking seems happened here hmm
Ladies and gentlemen, you don't need verse of Quran to claim that something is wrong
Maybe some of us react defensively regarding pedophilia issue because this issue is often used to attack Islam by saying that prophet Muhammad did it. For me pedophilia is unwise practice and for some extent could be banned. If one ask my opinion regarding story about prophet Muhammad I will simply answer that I can't comment on it because (hi)story is easy to fabricated.
Peace peace
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.........
Muslim (in his mind) It so awful! it's a shame! There should be a verse that ban such thing. I have to find one! or... maybe I can force a verse as if it support the opinion of not letting a baby drink coke.i agree with you , flea
As on today i am yet to find a single direct hadith to support child marriage except in tafsirs .in 2009 ,i had the same feeling ,when i went to the salafi scholars ,they pursued me that there is a provision in Islam to marry as well as divorce a child before puberty.of course they roped in the life of prophet into their argument .the only analogy that salafis give is the life of the prophet .any hadith will never get its weightage unless it is attributed to our prophet .practically speaking , child marriage was very common around world till 20th century .when child marriage was acceptable in the society how can we ignore the laws related to it .Quran is a book which suits all ages .if missionaries wants to defame Islam with this issue , we cannot get ashamed and settle down in a apologetic manner .
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I see some people here still trapped in error way of thinking which I think should be eliminated completely when we choose to become a "Quran only" muslim.
Imagine a conversation between a non-muslim with a muslim like this
Non-muslim Do we allow to give coke to a baby according to Quran?
Muslim I don't find specific verse about that
Non-muslim OMG! so muslims are allowed to give coke to they baby? how can Quran doesn't forbid such dangerous practice? We know it can harm a baby badly right? Quran is so evil!
Muslim (in his mind) It so awful! it's a shame! There should be a verse that ban such thing. I have to find one! or... maybe I can force a verse as if it support the opinion of not letting a baby drink coke.You can find error way of thinking on conversation above right? You may change "give coke to a baby" with "texting while driving" etc, etc. The same error way of thinking seems happened here hmm
Ladies and gentlemen, you don't need verse of Quran to claim that something is wrong
Maybe some of us react defensively regarding pedophilia issue because this issue is often used to attack Islam by saying that prophet Muhammad did it. For me pedophilia is unwise practice and for some extent could be banned. If one ask my opinion regarding story about prophet Muhammad I will simply answer that I can't comment on it because (hi)story is easy to fabricated.
Peace peace
If from these 2 verses it's not clear to people that pedophilia is forbidden in the book then they have a different quran than the one I have.
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i agree with you , flea
As on today i am yet to find a single direct hadith to support child marriage except in tafsirs .in 2009 ,i had the same feeling ,when i went to the salafi scholars ,they pursued me that there is a provision in Islam to marry as well as divorce a child before puberty.of course they roped in the life of prophet into their argument .the only analogy that salafis give is the life of the prophet .any hadith will never get its weightage unless it is attributed to our prophet .practically speaking , child marriage was very common around world till 20th century .when child marriage was acceptable in the society how can we ignore the laws related to it .Quran is a book which suits all ages .if missionaries wants to defame Islam with this issue , we cannot get ashamed and settle down in a apologetic manner .
In old times you were also not considered a child for as long as today.
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In old times you were also not considered a child for as long as today.
Did you just let your instincts take control of you?! giveup
On a serious note, let's calm down peace
Salam
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Woman consent is needed when she act as party in the marriage contract. But when her father or her guardian (wali) who act as party in the marriage contract (because she hasn't reach her adulthood) then it is her father/guardian consent that is legally needed. That is just simple legal thought. Nevertheless, a wise father/guardian surely will figure out whether his daughter agree with his plan or not.
Actually it's not about gender, but about involving immature person in a contract. The same apply in case of a 19 y/o girl and 7 y/o girl making legal contract to be a movie star. The first one will signed the contract by herself, and for the second one it is her father/guardian who will signed the contract.
What maybe will make you jump out of your seat is there is no prohibition to smoke next to nuclear reactor in Quran! rotfl
It's so easy to pick example of some issues out there that is more serious than some of what is written in Quran. Please don't think like that anymore. God rules on His book whatever He want to rule, not whatever we might think important.
According to you a girl who has not menstruated yet and can't go to the grocery because she has not even the skills to do the correct mathematics can get married because she can decide on that matter. And in case she is inmature someone (a male who can get sure of her consent) will be mature enough to decide for her and about her life. Because you know? How do you understand if a girl non already menstruating wants to get married to a specific individual? Asking her? brickwall And this is all God has to say about and whoever thinks otherwise is forcing interpretations. No, that is not my God and surely that is not the book I am reading.
God is the Merciful, the Forgiver, the Comprehensive. He is the rahmani and the Lord of human kind, and it is people with your thinking and reading that created billions of unhappy subjugated sisters's souls condemned to be stoned to death one day just because they dared to take their lives in their hands. Paradise is full of those sisters
So no, I am not going to jump out of my seat, because you are not even worthy the jumping. Spread oppression somewhere else.
I have a genuine question. I hope you don't mind. Are you here to troll Quran followers? It seems you joined this place somewhere around 2013, but you are not studying the Book. I certainly haven't seen any Quran followers who live by it skipping contemplation to stick to the sectarians' interpreted verses.
welcome
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The consent of the woman is always needed and she always acts as a party. That a guardin or whatever figment of western law is present in qur'an is a falsehood, there is no such a thing. nd a woman to marry must be acknowledged as capable of consent. Anything else is invention and not Qur'an.
Salaam
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ahhh....this is deplorable...many obviously have no idea of other people's lives.
If you go to many villages, in many countries, you'll see that a young male or female becomes a productive individual in his or her family at an early age. Depending on his/her family's needs, boys and girls start to work. There are no schools in such places, and no playgrounds, no shopping malls etc... so these people have a different view of life. Everyday they struggle and work hard for a piece of bread. the young boys and girls work in farms or any other simplistic job opportunity (that's all there is anyways) but some of them get to travel to cities, alone. very brave kids travelling alone at a young age to a city for a job opportunity, girls usually work as maids in houses and boys work at stores. Ironically the abuse begin only at the city, where the employer usually gets too violent or even sexual.
Back to the village now, when someone comes to the family and wants to take their 12 years old full-time worker country-traveler little girl, they see it as an opportunity of someone helping them with their living and with the living and well being of their daughter, while also growing their family, so they make a huge family meeting to get to know the family they are going to relate with, is it a respectable one, is it a financially capable one, so in most cases the marriage happens between people of the tribe since parents know each other and trust each other. What does the 12 years old full-time worker country-traveler little girl have to say about this ? Nothing, she steps into this as she stepped in every situation she's been in life, with her head low and doing whatever it takes to help her family. Such event are met by these families with great enthusiasm, they make the biggest celebration of their lives at such events.
Very brave people I'd say, very humble people too, they live with less and are content with it. They are uneducated but they have their way of living.
That's what you call , in one word, "pedophilia".
Now in the other hand you have 12 years old girls from modern countries losing their virginity to their boyfriends at their school's bathrooms while living one hell of a comfy life.
Now I don't defend child marriage at all, but I do realize the struggle of such people and their way of living, make sure you realize it too. And if you can help them to live a more comfy life like yours. Maybe then they'll have the luxury to live life before having to marry, just like you did.
P.S Governments in such countries are building schools and playgrounds and building roads to open up these villages to the cities and to "freedom", while also encouraging the parents to send their kids to school instead.
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P.S Governments in such countries are building schools and playgrounds and building roads to open up these villages to the cities and to "freedom", while also encouraging the parents to send their kids to school instead.
Why is freedom in quotation marks?
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ahhh....this is deplorable...many obviously have no idea of other people's lives.
If you go to many villages, in many countries, you'll see that a young male or female becomes a productive individual in his or her family at an early age. Depending on his/her family's needs, boys and girls abuse begin only at the city, where the employer usually gets tont or even sexual.
I did not know that just because other people now or in older times did something, that something is accepted / acceptable. What a nice criterio! Let's go back to slavery or let's join politheism! We found our fathers/ neiborgs doing it, right?
(Yes, sarcasm)
The point is to stand for the children of this world, not just accept the cultural Oppresion. Not to accept child marrage is even a good solution for their lives!!!
And yes, child abusers are a kind of transcultural evil, no culture has the copyright.
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Did you read what I wrote ? Or did the idea of "not because they do it that it's acceptable" crossed your mind so you based your reply on it ? Also the quote of me you provided is messed up, one sentence from the beginning, one sentence from the end and a horrible link between the two.
They didn't do anything, my friend. Life put them in such situation, in which a young male or female are believed to be a productive individuals in their families at a young age. They do what they have to do. And unless you are gonna help them to live a luxurious life to change it, calling their way of life "pedophilia" is a fuckin insult to these humble hard working people that DO NOT KNOW any criteria of living beside the one of being able to feed yourself and your family in dignity and while preserving your values. That is the definition of a hard working person. They didn't choose that, do you get it ?
Is it acceptable that they live a miserable life like that ? Of course no,but do they still live their life like that ? Yes they do, and calling it "pedophilia" and then linking it to "quran" and then mixing everything with your modern-society garbage criteria doesn't help it either.
Please reread the story I provided.
Do you see any "philia" in it ? Then where is "pedophilia" in it ? It is misery. Those who came up with "pedophilia" meant the sexual desire to children, in a luxurious life style, of course, not the fact that some children are considered adult in some societies, and therefore live a shitty childhood to survive but they're still content with it because they don't perceive childhood as you perceive it. -
ahhh....this is deplorable...many obviously have no idea of other people's lives.
I have an idea, I grew up in such a society and have even family members who engaged in such sick nonsense.
If you go to many villages, in many countries, you'll see that a young male or female becomes a productive individual in his or her family at an early age. Depending on his/her family's needs, boys and girls start to work. There are no schools in such places, and no playgrounds, no shopping malls etc... so these people have a different view of life. Everyday they struggle and work hard for a piece of bread. the young boys and girls work in farms or any other simplistic job opportunity (that's all there is anyways) but some of them get to travel to cities, alone. very brave kids travelling alone at a young age to a city for a job opportunity, girls usually work as maids in houses and boys work at stores. Ironically the abuse begin only at the city, where the employer usually gets too violent or even sexual.
ok, so?
Back to the village now, when someone comes to the family and wants to take their 12 years old full-time worker country-traveler little girl, they see it as an opportunity of someone helping them with their living and with the living and well being of their daughter, while also growing their family, so they make a huge family meeting to get to know the family they are going to relate with, is it a respectable one, is it a financially capable one, so in most cases the marriage happens between people of the tribe since parents know each other and trust each other. What does the 12 years old full-time worker country-traveler little girl have to say about this ? Nothing, she steps into this as she stepped in every situation she's been in life, with her head low and doing whatever it takes to help her family. Such event are met by these families with great enthusiasm, they make the biggest celebration of their lives at such events.
Very brave people I'd say, very humble people too, they live with less and are content with it. They are uneducated but they have their way of living.
Very brave and humble people to sell their daughter for their their own luxery, and a very brave and humble person to marry a child.
btw what do you think happens with the girl when she is 35 with six kids and a deceased husband? Do you think she has any chance to remarry?What about you? When you were 12, would you have liked to marry a 50 years old woman?
That's what you call , in one word, "pedophilia".
Yes, pedophilia is when a grown up has a sexual relationship with a child, no matter what fairy tale you try to cover it.
Now in the other hand you have 12 years old girls from modern countries losing their virginity to their boyfriends at their school's bathrooms while living one hell of a comfy life.
apples and oranges
Now I don't defend child marriage at all, but I do realize the struggle of such people and their way of living, make sure you realize it too. And if you can help them to live a more comfy life like yours. Maybe then they'll have the luxury to live life before having to marry, just like you did.
selling their daughter is not the solution
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Did you read what I wrote ? Or did the idea of "not because they do it that it's acceptable" crossed your mind so you based your reply on it ? Also the quote of me you provided is messed up, one sentence from the beginning, one sentence from the end and a horrible link between the two.
I read alm of it and i reject all of it
They didn't do anything, my friend. Life put them in such situation, in which a young male or female are believed to be a productive individuals in their families at a young age. They do what they have to do. And unless you are gonna help them to live a luxurious life to change it, calling their way of life "pedophilia" is a fuckin insult to these humble hard working people that DO NOT KNOW any criteria of living beside the one of being able to feed yourself and your family in dignity and while preserving your values. That is the definition of a hard working person. They didn't choose that, do you get it ?
No one is blaming the child involved, they are innocent. But in case there is an adult, yes you can consider i insult that adult. If sending your little gorl to marriage to get rid of her expenses or to give her a better life is "hard working people", i just will never agree with that definnition.
Is it acceptable that they live a miserable life like that ? Of course no,but do they still live their life like that ? Yes they do, and calling it "pedophilia" and then linking it to "quran" and then mixing everything with your modern-society garbage criteria doesn't help it either.
It is paedophilia or a kind of child selling and Quran discourages it. The fact that that is their only way in life (which is not) is just an excuse, primitive excuse.
Please reread the story I provided.
Do you see any "philia" in it ? Then where is "pedophilia" in it ? It is misery. Those who came up with "pedophilia" meant the sexual desire to children, not the fact that some children are considered adult in some societies, and therefore live a shitty childhood but they're still content with it because they don't perceive childhood as you perceive it. Help them maybe ?Childhood is childhood. There are not different kinds of childhood according to different cultures. The story you provide is, for me, nothing but an excuse based on citcumstances/ situations.
Abraham found a society before him too, and he stood up for the right, no matter ehat others said and the others said "we just use to live like this".
Sorry bro, i will never agree not even with the misery/ poverty criteria. God will provide those who are patient and do right. And protecting a child is always Right, no excuses.
