To Layth - About the 19 and Smoke Articles
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Peace
Example is the Bahaii faith. Their "scriptures" are no doubt good, but how do we know they are from God if God never mentions anything about a new Book coming?
5.3
...Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you...Do we need new a book from Allah?
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This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. -
Do we need new a book from Allah?
Of course not tux. My point with that quote was that I think I misunderstood idolfree1, because if there are going to be more prophets, then there are going to be more Books. I think the Quran is complete and we need nothing else.
Idolfree1, you certainly have an interesting position on the 'seal'. Perhaps sometime we can discuss it further.
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Peace be upon you Green Leaves,
Of course not tux. My point with that quote was that I think I misunderstood idolfree1, because if there are going to be more prophets, then there are going to be more Books. I think the Quran is complete and we need nothing else.
It is not this reading(quran) that is complete, it is the God's Word that is complete.
(6115) And your Lord's word (is) completed truthfully and justly, (there is) no change to His words, and He is the hearing/listening, the knowledgeable.
Please look at this verse carefully. If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic.
The God's Word is His Law that permeates the entire UNI-VERSE (One Word). The reading is a guide to the God's laws(His pattern/fitra).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's Laws.
DIdolfree1, you certainly have an interesting position on the 'seal'.
Thank you. Reflect on it and let me know your thoughts.
Perhaps sometime we can discuss it further.
Anytime.
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Idolfree Salaam,
Seal means final, it do not mean that there will be prophets and messangers coming after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) carrying his seal as claimed by all false prophets. The sales deed is sealed mean the sales deed is final and there will be no further amendments.
You tried to explain 6115 according to your understanding which unfortunately is not correct. Qur'an are the final words of God in Arabic. Noah message must be given to them in their own language, Psalms given to David, Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus were in the language which they understand. Psalms, Torah and Gospel message was only for people limited for Jews and their tribes, the message was not universal message. The three previous books help people to develop a more civilized social system with the introduction of monothism One God concept. Finally Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was selected as the prophet for whole humanity with the final message Qur'an in Arabic. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Rahmat Al Aalameen (Mercy of God Almighty to mankind).
Allah (SWT) All Knowing given his message to the people in their own languages. How could Noah would be preaching his message in Arabic when people do not understand the language.
Philosophy can't resolve all issues, Qur'an can as it is the final words of God Almighty unchanged protected promised to be true and complete by our Creator Lord Himself.
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Salaam kGB,
You tried to explain 6115 according to your understanding which unfortunately is not correct. Qur'an are the final words of God in Arabic. Noah message must be given to them in their own language, Psalms given to David, Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus were in the language which they understand. Psalms, Torah and Gospel message was only for people limited for Jews and their tribes, the message was not universal message. The three previous books help people to develop a more civilized social system with the introduction of monothism One God concept. Finally Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was selected as the prophet for whole humanity with the final message Qur'an in Arabic. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Rahmat Al Aalameen (Mercy of God Almighty to mankind).
Allah (SWT) All Knowing given his message to the people in their own languages. How could Noah would be preaching his message in Arabic when people do not understand the language.
I believe that that was presicely Kyle's point! Take a look again!
Please look at this verse carefully. If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic.
The God's Word is His Law that permeates the entire UNI-VERSE (One Word). The reading is a guide to the God's laws(His pattern/fitra).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's Laws.
Kyle was not assuming that the Word of Allah has always been in Arabic.
Taj
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Thanks Marie.
Taj my post to Idolfree is not on linguist grounds. My only intention is stick to the message of Qur'an without destroying Deen of Allah (SWT) in the name of liberalism, monothism, in the name of God Alone sectarian group formation with American last prophet.
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Peace be upon you KGB,
Seal means final
Where's your PROOF? D I know that is what you were taught to beleive, just as I was, but where is the PROOF?
it do not mean that there will be prophets and messangers coming after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) carrying his seal as claimed by all false prophets.
Carrying what seal? I did not say anything about anyone carrying anything. I am stating that the seal prevents access to a certain level, while covering those who cannot reach that level. A mental picture might help, imagine the sun being the light of prophecy, and there is a big screen blocking the light causing darkness to cover those beneath it. The screen/SEAL is the message itself(messenger).
The sales deed is sealed mean the sales deed is final and there will be no further amendments.
I'm sure for the right amount of money, that sales deed can be made to disappear in this wordly life, but lets stick to this message. Does a seal imply final in its usage throughout the message? When the heart of rejectors is sealed, does it mean that there is no hope for rejectors? If that is the case, why do we bother spreading the message?
You tried to explain 6115 according to your understanding which unfortunately is not correct. Qur'an are the final words of God in Arabic.
Is that your proof? I don't mind you saying I am incorrect, but I expect a counter argument with proof, not just an answer based on desire.
Noah message must be given to them in their own language, Psalms given to David, Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus were in the language which they understand.
Yes, all people must get the message in thier own language. While we are on this point, it is your argument that "Muhammad" came with the final message to all humanity, so this means that since it is for all humanity, it should be in all languages, but he only left us the Arabic version, does that make sense according to you reasoning?
I will repeat what I said in my previous post, If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic. DO you think Noah got a physical book with the VERY SAME WORDINGS? I do not, I think Noah was inspired by life around him with the very same message that al prophets are inspired with, not a physical book.
Psalms, Torah and Gospel message was only for people limited for Jews and their tribes, the message was not universal message. The three previous books help people to develop a more civilized social system with the introduction of monothism One God concept. Finally Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was selected as the prophet for whole humanity with the final message Qur'an in Arabic. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Rahmat Al Aalameen (Mercy of God Almighty to mankind).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's words. You are saying that the previous "books" were speacialized, why do you feel differently about this book since it obviously came down in Arabic?
Allah (SWT) All Knowing given his message to the people in their own languages. How could Noah would be preaching his message in Arabic when people do not understand the language.
EXACTLY! Thats what I am asking you D
Philosophy can't resolve all issues, Qur'an can as it is the final words of God Almighty unchanged protected promised to be true and complete by our Creator Lord Himself.
This reading(quran) IS a philosophy. It is the God's argument.
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Salaam Layth,
As for the 2 verses, I find that based on faulty research and reject such conclusions...Similarly I find Mohammed (the person) made human mistakes just as severe when he stated that something was forbidden when it was lawful (see 661)...Moses commited manslaughter and hid the facts from everyone...Lot gave up his daughters for the sexual desires of hsi people out of fear for his guests...Jonah ran away from his mission and until he repented...The list goes on.
#1
Muhammad (P&PBUH) didn't sin when he forbade himself from doing something, which nobody knows what it was, for the sake of his wives. He wanted to satisfy his wives by giving up something that was completely Halah, yet he chose to give it up, for the sake of peace. He did not mess up with Allah's Massege. Muhammad was sacrifying that which was rightfully his in order to keep peace. In Allah was disapproving that Muhammad submit totally to his wives, seeking their satisfaction, reminding him that there is a limit (for the wives's satisfaction).#2
Moses (PBUH) didn't commit manslaughter. What happened was an ACCIDENT. Moses DID NOT intend to kill. He had to run away out of fear of misunderstanding, that people would think of him as what you, Layth, think of him! So Allah sent Moses a man to urge him to leave the village to save his life.#3
Lot (PBUH) did not give up his daughters for the sexual desires of his people.
Lot told those menHere are my daughters they are purer for you.
Could Lot be suggesting something Haram when he said that his daughters are a way for purity for those men? To me it is very clear he was offering his daughters as WIVES for those sinning men. And that was a big sacrifice on Lot's part, NOT A MISTAKE!#4
Jonah (PBUH) did not run away from his mission wanting to disobey Allah. Jonah doubted himself and his people. He feared the burden of the Massege and thought that they would never listen. Jonah threw himslef willingly in the sea asking for Allah's forgiveness and Allah saved Jonah by sending the whale. The whale was a mercy, not a punishment.And that is the way with many Messengers. They feared their people, so they were always in need for Allah's support.
Taj
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Salaam Taj,
Just an observation I'd like for you to go through with me. In #3 you said that lut offered his daughters as wives for sinning men. Was lut a muslim and if so is it not true that for a muslim marrying rejectors is not encouraged? What is meant to be accomplished by this?
In #4, we know not what his true intentions were, but he did run. This is in itself not acceptable. I'm not sure if Allah saved Jonah by sending a whale when he called out afterwards . I think Allah actually saved him in giving him freedom from this gloomy disposition.
In #2 you say the intention of musa was not to kill. I believe the lesson therein is not to come forward with preconcieved notions. What I believe happened was that musa was generalizing and sought to help when he was not helping at all. It could indeed be manslaughter, even though it was not the intention. He was wrong.
In #1 this man forbade a thing not forbidden. How do you define a sin? I say that doing something wrong according to a criterion falls under a sin. A blatant crossing of the lines which was done for his wives.
Joe
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Where's your PROOF? D I know that is what you were taught to beleive, just as I was, but where is the PROOF?
Proof is in Qur'an which you understand better than me. Seal in this verse is the stamp of finality of prophethood. Qur'an is the proof that there is no need of new or already dead prophet to come and give final touches to already perfected deen of Allah (SWT). The proof is that Allah (SWT) has confirmed that Muhammad has delivered the message excatly what was given to him. Seal in this verse is not the shield.
I'm sure for the right amount of money, that sales deed can be made to disappear in this wordly life, but lets stick to this message. Does a seal imply final in its usage throughout the message? When the heart of rejectors is sealed, does it mean that there is no hope for rejectors? If that is the case, why do we bother spreading the message?
Yes. But still sealed legal and business documents means that they are final.
Yes, all people must get the message in thier own language. While we are on this point, it is your argument that "Muhammad" came with the final message to all humanity, so this means that since it is for all humanity, it should be in all languages, but he only left us the Arabic version, does that make sense according to you reasoning?
The very simple answer to your question is that at the time of Qur'an revelation the languages were in very primitive stages or did not exists at all where Arabic language was very developed rich spoken and written language. Was the spoken or written English was developed like it is today, or take my first language Urdu which did not at all existed at the time of Qur'an revelations. How you expect Allah (SWT) deliver message in non existant language?
I will repeat what I said in my previous post, If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic. DO you think Noah got a physical book with the VERY SAME WORDINGS? I do not, I think Noah was inspired by life around him with the very same message that al prophets are inspired with, not a physical book.
Yes I believe Qur'an are the exact words of Allah (SWT).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's words. You are saying that the previous "books" were speacialized, why do you feel differently about this book since it obviously came down in Arabic?
Again proof is in Qur'an. You are more intelligent person and I am and certainly have the knowledge better than me. Please refer to verses which talk about previous scriptures also please read the verse where Allah (SWT) has said that he never let his message get deleted instead he replaces it with the better one. Psalms replaced by Torah, Torah replaced by Gospel, Qur'an replaces all the previous scripture still exists. Please also read the verse where Allah (SWT) says that if we read the previous scriptures we will still be able to the proof that it was His message.
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Salaamun alaikum KGB,
Seal means final, it do not mean that there will be prophets and messangers coming after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) carrying his seal as claimed by all false prophets
Seal means final, yes. But does 'muhammad' means 'prophet muhammad ibn abdullah ibn abi mutalib al-quraisy' ? THAT is the question
If nubuwwat/prophethood is finished, why does 65/1 use 'you' in plural ? See word 'talaqTUM' ?
Proof is in Qur'an which you understand better than me. Seal in this verse is the stamp of finality of prophethood. Qur'an is the proof that there is no need of new or already dead prophet to come and give final touches to already perfected deen of Allah (SWT). The proof is that Allah (SWT) has confirmed that Muhammad has delivered the message excatly what was given to him. Seal in this verse is not the shield.
Al-Quraan never says that Prophets bring NEW books. 6/84-89 mentions Prophets who were never associated historically with NEW books.
NEW books arent our concern. We should be concerned with what is told to us.
thanks and salaam.
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Salaam Joe,
Just an observation I'd like for you to go through with me. In #3 you said that lut offered his daughters as wives for sinning men. Was lut a muslim and if so is it not true that for a muslim marrying rejectors is not encouraged? What is meant to be accomplished by this?
Are you telling me, Joe, that once a rejecter, is always a rejecter!? Is that your final judgment on sinners!? shock
Clearly to me, Lot (or Lut) was helping his people to repent and was being extra helpful when he was giving them the right alternative Marriage as a way for purity. And Lot was even more helpful when he suggested his own daughters as wives for them.
In #4, we know not what his true intentions were, but he did run. This is in itself not acceptable. I'm not sure if Allah saved Jonah by sending a whale when he called out afterwards . I think Allah actually saved him in giving him freedom from this gloomy disposition.
Where do you find in the Quran that Jonah ran away? No where! Jonah DID NOT run away, and certainly not from Allah! A Messenger is certainly the last one to think that he can run away from Allah. Don't you think, Joe?
Jonah lost faith IN HIS PEOPLE and not in Allah. Jonah became mad at the disobedience of his people to Allah?s Message.
Allah saved Jonah twice. When Allah first sent the whale to swallow Jonah and didn't leave Jonah to drown. And that was one special honor that no other Prophet or Messenger ever had. Jonah was the only one who was given the opportunity to worship Allah in the belly of a whale. Have you, Joe, heard of another Messenger who had the same honor? Allah saved Jonah again when Allah allowed the whale to breath out Jonah on the land.
In #2 you say the intention of musa was not to kill. I believe the lesson therein is not to come forward with preconcieved notions. What I believe happened was that musa was generalizing and sought to help when he was not helping at all. It could indeed be manslaughter, even though it was not the intention. He was wrong.
A "wrong" is when you intend it, not when something wrong happens as a result of something that was good-intended. Moses' mistake was when he at face value believed his fellow man and tried to defend him. What did Moses exactly do? He slightly pushed the other man away from the crying man. The death of the other man was bound to happen because Allah clearly says
which refers to death as inMeaning that the life of that person was decided by Allah to end at that particular moment, when Moses pushed him with his hand
Allah did not say so Moses killed the man!The words
means that Moses' hand-push SIGNALED the end of that man's life.
The word characterizes DEATH not killing.Of course, to Moses IT DID look like he killed him. The man died instantly! So Moses thought that it was because of his hand.
Moses was terrified of what had resulted from his intervention and immediately repented. How did Allah receive Moses regrets? Allah immediately forgave him. Why? Because the death was intended (as a fate) to come to that man at that particular moment. So the man's death had nothing to do with Moses' hand-push.I want to ask you, Joe, do you see in the Quran that Allah has punished Moses for that accident? If Moses' action was intentional, I am sure that Allah, The All Fair, will see that Moses gets his proper punishment. Don't you think? Please point out an Ayah that condemns Moses for the death of that person!
What I clearly see in the Quran is quite the contrary! Allah has sent a special Messenger to Moses urging him to get out of town warning him of the people who were after him in revenge.In #1 this man forbade a thing not forbidden. How do you define a sin? I say that doing something wrong according to a criterion falls under a sin. A blatant crossing of the lines which was done for his wives.***
To forbid yourself of something that is not Haram is not a sin. Prophet Israel (PBUH) in did forbid himself (only himself) of things and Allah did not condemn that. In a modern example, Muslim vegetarians forbid themselves from eating animal products and that is not Haram. That is their choice. A doctor can forbid his patients from Halal food if by consuming such foods a damage to their health could result. The doctor has the full right to forbid and it is the patient?s duty to obey and follow the doctor?s orders religiously.
Taj
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Salaamun alaikum mquran,
If nubuwwat/prophethood is finished, why does 65/1 use 'you' in plural ? See word 'talaqTUM' ?
Both the prophet and us are concerned by this verse. we read "O thou prophet" instead of "O YOU prophets" like in 2351
?O messengers, eat from what is good, and do righteous work. I am aware of what you do.?
Ya ayyuha alrrusulu kuloo mina alttayyibati waiAAmaloo salihaninnee bima taAAmaloona AAaleemun
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Peace brother Layth, sister Shams, all,
Was these numberings of the verses even revealed in this order ? Who did the numbering at the first place ?
The chapter/verses order was completed by divine instruction/will...With regards to the numbering of the order, that is merely a statement of fact (i.e. this is chapter 1, verse 1, etc.)
What evidence is there that the great reading says that it is in verse form, let alone that the verse separators are "divinely inspired"?
The early copies of the great reading did not have any separators (stars or asterisks or numbering). The separators were added much later and they were in different locations than now. The present alleged verse separation locations were not agreed on until as late as 1924. Early copies of the great reading are available on the internet and in museums for everybody to verify what I am saying. One can even find a picture of a page of the Tashkent copy on the submission.org web site and it confirms what I am saying.
For example, there are no verse separators between 786 and 787 and they had to be added in red to the picture by the writer of the article at submission.org to clarify where the verse begins
http//www.submission.org/images/7-86-87.jpg
One can easily see that in the Tashkent copy there is no separator between 768 and 769
http//www.submission.org/images/q-tash.gif
Even in later copies where there are some separators, the separators are in different locations
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/yem12a.html
As you can see above, there is a separator in 1720 but none at what is currently 1721 and 1722.
Below one can see that there is a separator where 5118 is today but there is no separator where 5117 and 5119 are today.
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/yem23a.html
Again, when the man-made separators were added later, their purpose was for ease of reading and reference. So that people for example can stop and take a breath at a certain location while reciting and can more easily refer to a certain passage. It is only now that people believe that the separators were divinely inspired.
In the following manuscript from the 2nd century there is a separator between Chapter 8/9 and Chapter 10, but no separators between alleged verses at all
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/yem2a.html
In fact, even in the some early copies of the great reading where there are a few separators, the spacing suggests that separators were squeezed in later. They were also done using a different type of ink and they exhibit different aging pattern to the rest of the text and hence cannot be dated to the same period as the original text but were added later.
The above are just some examples and there are plenty more.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
The "seperators" and other distinguishing marks and insertions as understood and injected by others could speak volumes in our current understanding, don't you think so? Not to mention that there are two versions. Besides, its seems extremely difficult to understand in the way its written and doesn't seem to match the current version, if one were to scrutinize. Now, how does then, make this Quran, as the absolute Word of GOD?
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Peace brother Danish,
The "seperators" and other distinguishing marks and insertions as understood and injected by others could speak volumes in our current understanding, don't you think so?
No I don't think so because I don't see the seperators as adding anything to our understanding. It does shake the understanding of those who built elaborate theories, including removing parts of the reading, based on man-made verse separators.
Not to mention that there are two versions. Besides, its seems extremely difficult to understand in the way its written and doesn't seem to match the current version, if one were to scrutinize. Now, how does then, make this Quran, as the absolute Word of GOD?
The versions differ in minor points such as a few "alif" here and there. They do not differ in meaning. Thus one can still get the reminder out of them. Remember that The God preserved the reminder and not the book or even the reading. Hence, things like vocalization marks, which were also added a few hundred years later, cannot be considered divinely inspired.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman