Discussion/Question about muslim divorce
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What people do and what God told them to do are two completely different things. And it i plain that the world ha been a male world formost of the historical times. God was recruited to do the job for power addicted males. So it would be naive to pretend at this stage that we are surprised that we see things like this or that. Nothing new under the sun.
Whatmatters is that people who have neought lights to do it, stand for the true teachings we get form our own innate conscience (fitra) and from the teachings of the prophets.
Hisotry is not science but a weapon, and so is religion inthe hands of those in power.
So, yes societies are unfair, at times more at times less, and in somethingsmore and in somethings less. It is up to each person and each society to struggle for justice and compassion in its middle. And to call the blufs that they use to trump God's teachings.
For muslims as well as for anybody else.
Salaam
I know that ...but I don't understand. Why are some of the countries with the worst human rights and women rights violations muslim? I've lived in many muslim countries....I've seen it with my own eyes. It's been so painful for me and it's made me distant from faith because of all the unfairness to women. Why are they so patriarchal when thats not what Allah wanted?Why aren't muslims doing anything to help their women and the people around them?
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Peace sister Baitachal.
Traditional Islam is a made up religion. The so called "Muslims" have abandoned Qoran ( 2530). They follow their "Saadatuhum wakubaraahum" -Their scholars and elders-.They do not believe the words of GOD and only give lip service to Qoran,they follow their hadiths and made up rules!!!
How can anyone here make them see sense and return to Qoran Alone?
They are set in their ways and will keep oppressing women for as long as they will hold to their hadiths and fables.
Sister, GOD will help. Please seek GOD s help for these 3 things( GOD is closer to you than them)
1- To understand and apply Qoran to your life.
2- To help you against oppression and protect you from the oppressors.
3-To give you confidence and the knowledge to fight your corner with wisdom and Qoran ( 2552).
We can only strive against them with this Qoran if we study it and understand it better than they do, with GOD s help.
May the Lord bless you and guide you.
Peace. -
I think you are generalising too much,and muslims, prticularly in middle east have been targetted to destroy from inside socially.
Societies vary through time. Go back to two centuries ago in very civilised and advanced Wurope with miions of children dying and working in the worst conceivable conditions. And we are not going to be judged in groups when we die but individually.
We are at a moment in the world where circumstances are what they are, they are not eternal, in fact things change very rapidly andwe may be on the brink of a new world war whichmight be nuclear.
What I wonder is why should you feel that youhave to be contaminated by the bad example of some or many no matter. Ig the Qur'an does nto teach that you do not need to be many but to be true and that if you are guided by the majority you will be sorry, what else do you want. Do your best to improve whatever you can improve.Tehre is nothign else you can do.
And also, do not worry, everything is in God's hands nothing lasts one single second more than what God wants it to last.
Don't feel depressed. Just trust God and your own heart. And do not be afraid of not been many who are this way or that. Time has a way to take revenge for those who feel as if they are the odd ones. I can tell you. I have been that all my life and now that I am old I feel so vindicated and happy to never have surrendered to "numbers"... Take courage, everything is for good.
Salaam
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I think you are generalising too much,and muslims, prticularly in middle east have been targetted to destroy from inside socially.
Societies vary through time. Go back to two centuries ago in very civilised and advanced Wurope with miions of children dying and working in the worst conceivable conditions. And we are not going to be judged in groups when we die but individually.
We are at a moment in the world where circumstances are what they are, they are not eternal, in fact things change very rapidly andwe may be on the brink of a new world war whichmight be nuclear.
What I wonder is why should you feel that youhave to be contaminated by the bad example of some or many no matter. Ig the Qur'an does nto teach that you do not need to be many but to be true and that if you are guided by the majority you will be sorry, what else do you want. Do your best to improve whatever you can improve.Tehre is nothign else you can do.
And also, do not worry, everything is in God's hands nothing lasts one single second more than what God wants it to last.
Don't feel depressed. Just trust God and your own heart. And do not be afraid of not been many who are this way or that. Time has a way to take revenge for those who feel as if they are the odd ones. I can tell you. I have been that all my life and now that I am old I feel so vindicated and happy to never have surrendered to "numbers"... Take courage, everything is for good.
Salaam
Thank you. I hope so truly things will change. But we must also change ourselves. Allah said He will not help a nation unless they help themselves. Thank you. This is one of the very few websites I can find comfort in.
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I've heard of those...they are great. But how will muslim feminists ever get support when there are people like a Submitter who don't want to accept the unfairness probably because they have never faced it. I don't blame him....feminism has been warped. But that doesn't mean he ignores the real problems women face and not want to help them. I thought this forum would be different with open minded people....but sadly I see it's not. It's very depressing.
One can't be a muslim and a feminist. These are two different systems, one is truth, the other is falsehood.
Anyway, you seem to be confusing things. I'm not ignoring things. I dream of a nation of believers with the system of God, where all oppressive practices are ended, and where the laws of God govern the nation. But you speak as if I have any power, or even any money. If I could, why wouldn't I support those who are oppressed or mistreated, or those in need; if I didn't I would be a liar and a hypocrite.
First of all I'd like to say while Allah SWT did not mean to make divorce harsh unfortunately it is being very painfully used in muslim countries/communities. I have seen many women not leave abusive marriages because they either cannot obtain divorce or fear surviving after it. Let's look
Alimony. The Quran clearly states 2241 that divorce women shall be provided with. NOWHERE does it state that this can ONLY be for iddah. However muslim scholars have unjustly used this to only mean iddah eventhough no where does it say that. Alimony protects women and prevents them from staying in abusive marriages. It only makes sense that the amount and duration of alimony be dependable on the situation , it's extremely unfair to say that a wife only be provided for 3 months and then left on her own whim. That is why Allah put the verse, so women wouldn't fear starvation after leaving marriage, yet for some reason scholars thought they had the right to take this away from women.
Something more confusing is equalization and division of assets. Say if a woman has been a housewife for 30 years and then gets divorced. Will she have no right on the house she's lived in and taken care of for so long? Even if only her husband paid for it, I don't understand how any scholar can say a wife has no claim on the matrimonial home? What about when a husband and wife have both paid for it? I'm hoping someone can shed light into this. I don't like how it's done in the muslim world. Often a woman is ousted despite spending years in that home, protecting and taking care of it. I don't think that's what Allah has wanted. However I don't see many verses dealing with something like this. I can imagine in tribal world like 1400 years ago it would make sense for each to keep their own property, however in today's day where a family lives in one home equalization makes sense and helps to make sure a divorced women has claim over her home and is protected.
I also read that if a wife is disobedient the husband can stop supporting her or send her away? Please tell me this isn't true. It doesn't make sense .I hope you all can shed some light. Please view this through a feminist perspective, as it's very sad how divorced women are dealt with in muslim countries. Often they are left with no rights/money/property at all. Please tell me that's not what Allah has actually wanted.
You asked regarding divorce and assets and money. And I told you repeatedly, what is agreed upon is what she should get. A dowry could include property, money, gold, whatever they agree.
But then you continue telling me what if she won't receive it. I don't really know, she should ask that God only increase the wicked in destruction, and implore Him for something better.
Feminism is not the answer, but a nation governed by the system of God is. So I advice you to begin spread the message, submission to God alone, and introduce the system of God.
Also, if you're rich, create a charity aimed at helping abandoned poor women.Lastly, don't confuse the hypocrites that call themselves muslims with those who have truly submitted to God alone. Don't exepct much from those who follow hadiths when it comes to the system of God.
Salam
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Peace A Submitter.
I disagree with you about the naming of surahs. It is a system to know how verses will be collected and ordered.
As you know in Qoran there are many similar verses,nearly word for word. Instructions must have been given to the prophet on how Qoran will be ordered. GOD has made sure Qoran will be preserved for all generations and follows that promise throughout the existence of Qoran.
I suppose ,some think the numbering is also man-made, I see enough evidence that the ordering and numbering of Qoran can only be from the Author of Qoran irrespective of the names.I will also tell you that no person would have chosen the name of "Baquara"(cow) for surah 2.It describes the human perfectly(always asking irrelevant details instead of "hearing and obeying the Lord s instructions).Anyway ,back on the subject of women, please study surah 4 properly brother.
May GOD bless you and help you with the task.
PeaceSalam,
You said God has sent down a whole chapter entitled "Women".
I said the naming of the chapters are not from God. They are man-made names given to chapters.
I was simply telling you that God didn't name the chapters while you claimed it's from God.
Surat Baqarah, An-Nisa and all other 112 names, these are man-made names, and not from God. Some of them have hadith origins.Salam
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Peace A Submitter.
Please open a new thread if you want to speak about surahs and chapters.
It is off topic here.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Baitachal, you must reflect on what Islam is and what it means to be Muslim.
The atrocities that you describe are not Islam. Muslims do not oppress, nor are we unjust,
we are not unappreciative, but culture is entrenched so deeply in our societies
that what Allah instructs us to do with his directives and laws are ignored. Many adhere to
"what we found our fathers doing" refusing to obey Allah due to ignorance or coercion.
Thereby giving rise to those injustices you mention.peace
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Peace Baitachal, you must reflect on what Islam is and what it means to be Muslim.
The atrocities that you describe are not Islam. Muslims do not oppress, nor are we unjust,
we are not unappreciative, but culture is entrenched so deeply in our societies
that what Allah instructs us to do with his directives and laws are ignored. Many adhere to
"what we found our fathers doing" refusing to obey Allah due to ignorance or coercion.
Thereby giving rise to those injustices you mention.peace
I know islam does not mean to oppress however muslims misuse it to oppress. To say muslims do not oppress is just denial. And when everyones in denial we can hardly expect change. What about western born muslims who still do bad things? They are away from a bad culture but they still do bad things....its not all cultures fault. muslims use islam to do bad things. we have to accept that and fight it and not turn a blind eye because sometimes i feel muslims are not doing anything to help themselves and just blame everything on the west/jews and it depresses me and makes me frustrated,
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've heard of those...they are great. But how will muslim feminists ever get support when there are people like a Submitter who don't want to accept the unfairness probably because they have never faced it. I don't blame him....feminism has been warped. But that doesn't mean he ignores the real problems women face and not want to help them. I thought this forum would be different with open minded people....but sadly I see it's not. It's very depressing.
No one is ignoring any issues and A Submitter's opinions definently does not represent anyone else's opinions. If you read his posts you'll see that there are many who disagree with him on plenty of topics. And there's a lot of open minded people on the Forum and some that have written good articles that you might agree with.
I know that ...but I don't understand. Why are some of the countries with the worst human rights and women rights violations muslim? I've lived in many muslim countries....I've seen it with my own eyes. It's been so painful for me and it's made me distant from faith because of all the unfairness to women. Why are they so patriarchal when thats not what Allah wanted?Why aren't muslims doing anything to help their women and the people around them?
It's not religion that's behind it and every 'Muslim' country definently does not practise Islam at all. I don't know so much about other countries but in Syria there's a Ba'athist state that's known for oppressing women and doesn't really have any religion since it's actually considered secular. Point is you can't really judge Islam based on what the 'Muslim' countries since those countries don't really care about Islam at all nor do they have anything to do with the religion. They have a long list of human right violations and all of these human rights violations go against Islam. I agree with hawk99's response. It's not fair to take it out on Islam. Islam is about equality and Muslims definently don't oppress.
Feminism is a false system which can't go hand in hand with the system of God. Feminism is an oppressive system. While they say they strive for gender equality, it's not the truth. If it was, it would be called egalitarianism.
How about the system of God instead of man-made systems like feminism, democracy, dictatorship, egalitarianism, the Right, the Left?
This is throughout the Quran; the system of God! Yet we seek other systems...
The system of God does NOT allow oppression of any gender. It's the other systems that are false, and believe me, feminism is another oppressive system full of lies and promises.The problem?
No nation today exists with the system of God. All are corrupt.Salam
You should really read up on the definition of feminism because it's pretty clear that you don't even seem to know what it means.
http//www.dictionary.com/browse/feminism
"the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."
Are you saying that one cannot be a Muslim and advocate for equal rights for women? Instead of saying this and that is false, evil etc etc you really need to argue why, it's pretty much like the majority of your posts were you tend to state certain things are wrong or evil without any actual arguments. You might want to read this afterwards https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_effects_on_society
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One can't be a muslim and a feminist. These are two different systems, one is truth, the other is falsehood.
Anyway, you seem to be confusing things. I'm not ignoring things. I dream of a nation of believers with the system of God, where all oppressive practices are ended, and where the laws of God govern the nation. But you speak as if I have any power, or even any money. If I could, why wouldn't I support those who are oppressed or mistreated, or those in need; if I didn't I would be a liar and a hypocrite.
You asked regarding divorce and assets and money. And I told you repeatedly, what is agreed upon is what she should get. A dowry could include property, money, gold, whatever they agree.But then you continue telling me what if she won't receive it. I don't really know, she should ask that God only increase the wicked in destruction, and implore Him for something better.
Feminism is not the answer, but a nation governed by the system of God is. So I advice you to begin spread the message, submission to God alone, and introduce the system of God.
Also, if you're rich, create a charity aimed at helping abandoned poor women.Lastly, don't confuse the hypocrites that call themselves muslims with those who have truly submitted to God alone. Don't exepct much from those who follow hadiths when it comes to the system of God.
Salam
For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale).This is a duty on the righteous. (Surah Al-Baqara, 241)
This is not referring to the dowry/mehr as you can see, its the addition to that. Although alot of male scholars like to conveniently mistranslate this spelling into gift/kindness so that they can wrongfully free themselves from what Allah ordained them. They also conveniently like to add in just for the iddah period although NOWHERE does it say this is just for iddah. Something like this should be determined by a shariah court, depending on how long they've been married etc. This is what makes me mad, is that Allah ordered these things to protect divorced women and encourage them from leaving abusive marriages yet for some reason muslims have abandoned this practice and the western world holds them on. Alimony, welfare, child benefit, its muslims (umarRA started child benefit and welfare) who introduced these yet for some reason this has all vanished from the muslim world. I dont care if you call yourself a feminist or not but please dont be blind to cruelties happening. The only reason i come on this sub is because i feel as if the muslims here are alot more compassionate and understanding and open minded so please lets all be true to that elektro elektro elektro
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No one is ignoring any issues and A Submitter's opinions definently does not represent anyone else's opinions. If you read his posts you'll see that there are many who disagree with him on plenty of topics. And there's a lot of open minded people on the Forum and some that have written good articles that you might agree with.
It's not religion that's behind it and every 'Muslim' country definently does not practise Islam at all. I don't know so much about other countries but in Syria there's a Ba'athist state that's known for oppressing women and doesn't really have any religion since it's actually considered secular. Point is you can't really judge Islam based on what the 'Muslim' countries since those countries don't really care about Islam at all nor do they have anything to do with the religion. They have a long list of human right violations and all of these human rights violations go against Islam. I agree with hawk99's response. It's not fair to take it out on Islam. Islam is about equality and Muslims definently don't oppress.
You should really read up on the definition of feminism because it's pretty clear that you don't even seem to know what it means.
http//www.dictionary.com/browse/feminism
"the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."
Are you saying that one cannot be a Muslim and advocate for equal rights for women? Instead of saying this and that is false, evil etc etc you really need to argue why, it's pretty much like the majority of your posts were you tend to state certain things are wrong or evil without any actual arguments. You might want to read this afterwards https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_effects_on_society
Anything that isn't the system of God is evil and false.
Let's take a look at how feminism is the work of the devil
-Promises same rights but women end up sad and lonely because their belief lead them to it.
-Hatred of opposite gender.
-Hatred against what God teaches in Quran because it's hyper offensive to woman, according to feminists.
-Destruction of families. Mentally ill children.
-Abortion of what is in the wombs.
-Self-entitlement which is dangerous for the feminist and the people around.
-Flat ego.
-Disgusting behaviors.
-Hates marriage and prefers short relationships.
-Hypocrisy.
-An advocate of transgenderism and homosexuality; LGBT.
-Oppressive manners; such as a school with feminist teachers giving lower grades to opposite gender.
-Oppressive system. A divorce ends in the feminist getting all children with the help of feminist. This feminist can decide if her children can see their father or not. The father, if he fights long enough, may meet them 2 day each week. But if the feminist moves, it's more likely to be 1 week a year. After that, there's a fixed price for child support which disregards his means. Finally, she gets half of what he owns even if they agreed on something else prior to divorce.This is what feminism brought the world.
Anyone who says they want to fight so women aren't oppressed and get their rights as God has prescribed in the Quran, using the lens of Quran, should do it with the system of God, and not a false system called "feminism".
Salam
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Anything that isn't the system of God is evil and false.
Let's take a look at how feminism is the work of the devil
-Promises same rights but women end up sad and lonely because their belief lead them to it.
-Hatred of opposite gender.
-Hatred against what God teaches in Quran because it's hyper offensive to woman, according to feminists.
-Destruction of families. Mentally ill children.
-Abortion of what is in the wombs.
-Self-entitlement which is dangerous for the feminist and the people around.
-Flat ego.
-Disgusting behaviors.
-Hates marriage and prefers short relationships.
-Hypocrisy.
-An advocate of transgenderism and homosexuality; LGBT.
-Oppressive manners; such as a school with feminist teachers giving lower grades to opposite gender.
-Oppressive system. A divorce ends in the feminist getting all children with the help of feminist. This feminist can decide if her children can see their father or not. The father, if he fights long enough, may meet them 2 day each week. But if the feminist moves, it's more likely to be 1 week a year. After that, there's a fixed price for child support which disregards his means. Finally, she gets half of what he owns even if they agreed on something else prior to divorce.This is what feminism brought the world.
Anyone who says they want to fight so women aren't oppressed and get their rights as God has prescribed in the Quran, using the lens of Quran, should do it with the system of God, and not a false system called "feminism".
Salam
Why don't you also use this energy to fight patriarchy , with your logic that isn't the system of God either yet it is still so prevalent especially in the our countries.
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Feminism is not asystem it is a struggle for justice to liberte women from the oppression of lies and serfdom brought upon them by the present system, which is force based,not justice based.
There are things said by antifeminists which they attribute to the Qur'an which are just an insult to womanhood and humankind. That women still have to put up with it, is in itself a veryvaid reason for feminism, particularly for islamic feminism. The betrayal of Qur'an's message of justice and compassion in society and between genders is shocking.
Of course there must be feminism. Islamic feminism. It is a struggle for the dignity of humanity. Humanity is made up of women and men, not just by men with women as guest speakers for little things so just they do not make trouble and spoil the fun.
Salaam
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Anything that isn't the system of God is evil and false.
Let's take a look at how feminism is the work of the devil
-Promises same rights but women end up sad and lonely because their belief lead them to it.oh yes, a woman without a man is condemned to be sad and lonely -X
-Hatred of opposite gender.
Not really, only oppressive male chauvinists from the other gender. Like those who say feminists are selfish for wanting a life with a substance and a meaning defined by themselves and not their family status or husband.
I have heard too stories of women divorcing because they got tired of a beating and abusive husband... what a shame! divorce for such a thing nope women are not what they used to be nope
-Hatred against what God teaches in Quran sectarian chauvinistic reading of Quran because it's hyper offensive to woman, according to feminists.
Edited
-Destruction of families. Mentally ill children.
Do you mean breaking out from an oppressive marriage in which a child is taught day by day how a relationship should never be?
-Abortion of what is in the womb
This has nothing to do with feminism, you are confusing things.
-Self-entitlement which is dangerous for the feminist and the people around.
I dont understand what you are talking about here
-Flat ego.
Do you call ego the right to be equal active part of society and fight for your rights?
-Disgusting behaviors.
like? hmm
-Hates marriage and prefers short relationships.
What are you talking about? You have met a couple of licentious women claiming that miniskirt is a way of revolution and since then you apply that label to any feminist?
Maybe you are confusing women trying to find the proper mate with licentious behavior? Or, taking your words by another angle, are you saying that any licentious woman is by definition a feminist? Far from feminist, that is more likely lack of self respect, nothing to do with feminism and equal rights.-Hypocrisy.
Miniskirt is indeed a cruel lier &
-An advocate of transgenderism and homosexuality; LGBT.
All queers burn in hell elektro
-Oppressive manners; such as a school with feminist teachers giving lower grades to opposite gender.
That teacher is to feminism as Wahhabism (for example) is to God system, according to you brickwall
-Oppressive system. A divorce ends in the feminist getting all children with the help of feminist. This feminist can decide if her children can see their father or not. The father, if he fights long enough, may meet them 2 day each week. But if the feminist moves, it's more likely to be 1 week a year. After that, there's a fixed price for child support which disregards his means. Finally, she gets half of what he owns even if they agreed on something else prior to divorce.
rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl
This is what feminism brought the world.
I am still laughing about the previous rotfl rotfl rotfl
Anyone who says they want to fight so women aren't oppressed and get their rights as God has prescribed in the Quran, using the lens of Quran, should do it with the system of God, and not a false system called "feminism".
"Feminism" is not a system, it is a qualifier, so they do not exclude one eachother.
I think you are mixing up things current materialistic and vanity system of values is not feminism. If you think a woman moving her butt on a music video is doing it because it is one of the rights claimed by feminism or one of the goals of a feminist, you are sooooooooooooooooo wrong brickwall
Women's emancipation is not the cause neither the reason for the bad of this world, it only improves it with dignity, equality, and respect.
But it is ok, i find it even quite a rejoice sometimes the fact that some individuals have that idea of an all suffering obedient unequal woman who, paradoxically even for them, has the power to "destroy" those individuals' world just waking up and saying "it is enough". And then they say women's emancipation awoke all the bad in societies rotfl It only confirms that society was an all suffering obedient unequal women based and oppressive society all the time.
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Salam
Can you provide verses in Quran that supports a system like feminism, other than the system of God?
I tried searching "feminism", but there was no such system mentioned in Quran, in fact the word never occurred. I found Submission, Islam, as a system, with the laws of God, but no "feminism", sorry.
Perhaps you can help?Also, can you explain "Islamic feminism", I have never heard of this weird system. And what about "Muslim feminist", is this like one who has submitted to God alone but also follows another system, other than Submission, Islam?
Salam
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Salam
Can you provide verses in Quran that supports a system like feminism, other than the system of God?
I tried searching "feminism", but there was no such system mentioned in Quran, in fact the word never occurred. I found Submission, Islam, as a system, with the laws of God, but no "feminism", sorry.
Perhaps you can help?Also, can you explain "Islamic feminism", I have never heard of this weird system. And what about "Muslim feminist", is this like one who has submitted to God alone but also follows another system, other than Submission, Islam?
Salam
Feminism is not asystem it is a struggle for justice to liberte women from the oppression of lies and serfdom brought upon them by the present system, which is force based,not justice based.
There are things said by antifeminists which they attribute to the Qur'an which are just an insult to womanhood and humankind. That women still have to put up with it, is in itself a veryvaid reason for feminism, particularly for islamic feminism. The betrayal of Qur'an's message of justice and compassion in society and between genders is shocking.
Of course there must be feminism. Islamic feminism. It is a struggle for the dignity of humanity. Humanity is made up of women and men, not just by men with women as guest speakers for little things so just they do not make trouble and spoil the fun.
Salaam
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Feminism is not asystem it is a struggle for justice to liberte women from the oppression of lies and serfdom brought upon them by the present system, which is force based,not justice based.
There are things said by antifeminists which they attribute to the Qur'an which are just an insult to womanhood and humankind. That women still have to put up with it, is in itself a veryvaid reason for feminism, particularly for islamic feminism. The betrayal of Qur'an's message of justice and compassion in society and between genders is shocking.
Of course there must be feminism. Islamic feminism. It is a struggle for the dignity of humanity. Humanity is made up of women and men, not just by men with women as guest speakers for little things so just they do not make trouble and spoil the fun.
Salaam
Verses from Quran to support system called "feminism" and terms like "Islamic feminism"?
Salam
Can you provide verses in Quran that supports a system like feminism, other than the system of God?
I tried searching "feminism", but there was no such system mentioned in Quran, in fact the word never occurred. I found Submission, Islam, as a system, with the laws of God, but no "feminism", sorry.
Perhaps you can help?Also, can you explain "Islamic feminism", I have never heard of this weird system. And what about "Muslim feminist", is this like one who has submitted to God alone but also follows another system, other than Submission, Islam?
Salam