Ramadan is spiritual retreat, 3 days, in the 7th full moon after march equinox

[noshirk]

Salaam All

in this long thread, i will expose all arguments for what is Ramadan and when it is.
i ask the readers to be clement concerning my poor English.
I have made intensive use of google traduction.

let's begin with some terminology since we have to restore meaning to words Since "Chaytan" cannot change quran words, he changed their meanings.

Part 1 Terminology

Shahr=Full moon

Root of shahr points de something visible quite under projectors. Mashoor is said for stars and celebrity. The understanding Full Moon is still in dictionnary

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and even in hadiths where they are called white nights

( &#1641

Quran is clear that shahr ramadan is something that we can see easily. Full moon is much easier than crescent.

2185 Shahr RAMADAN, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you see the shahr, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

Please note that quran mention crescent as simple mawaquits (timings) and insists that we have to enter homes from the front side (illuminated) not from the back side (the dark one).

2189 They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
this philosophy of this verse can also be used to prefer spring equinox to autumn equinox to begin counting.

Sana=Lunar Month

The argument is based on verse 29-14 where it said that Noah is still between his people 1000 sana less 50 aam (years). Understanding of Sana=lunar month leads to a tota duration of 33 years while understanding of sana year or equivalent (12 lunar month) leads to a duration of 950 years.

We have same problem with verse 18-25 where people of cavern stayed 309 sana, which is exactly 25 solar years instead of the classical understanding of 309 years.

it is important to note that the hijri year is not an unit but a dozen of units. There is absolutely nothing in nature that correspond to a cycle of 12 lunar months.

105 He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases; that you may know the number of the SANAs and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

when you count 5 cycles of a moon, you are not even counting a hijri year but 5/12 of a hijri years. That is not counting Hijri years but counting 5 sana, that is 5 lunar cycles. If shahr was the lunar cycle then 10-5 should have mentionned shahr instead of SANA

Leylatou Al qadar=Equinox.

Leylatou el qadar in which Quran has been revealed (97-1) is quite the traduction word by word of word equinox who derive from latin equi - noxium (equal and night) because length of night and day are equal. Term Qadr in arabic points to just value of something.
See for example verses 10-5; 22-74;23-18; 25-2; 27-57; 36-39,41-40;42-27; 43-11;54-49; 65-3;73-20; 76-16;77-22;77-23;80-19.

For exemple,
5449 Everything We have created in measure (qadar).
and we have even a verse in which length of day and night is concerned.
7320 . And God measures (qadr) the night and the day.

Ramadan=Period of first rains after summer around september.

Brother Ayman was right when he pointed to the heat meaning of ramadan. I don't contest that. However, dictionaries show another meaning

.
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.

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.
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so Ramadhan applies also to end of summer and beginning of autumn or first rains period. We are again near Equinox.

to be continued

[noshirk]

Part 2 Astronomical Confirmation

Fist of All, we have to notice that our terminology deals with moon and sun only. We don't need other informations.

People who reads quran can observe that many sourates begins by speaking about quran itself.
And theses verses will have and important role here.

First of All, Quran was revealed both in "shar ramadan" (2-185) and equinox night (97-1)
The year can be obtained by these verses

302 The Romans have won.
303 At the "nearest" part on the earth. But after their victory, they will be defeated.

When we search for such a war in history, the very big war between the twi superpowers of that era impose itself. It is the war between Roman Empire and Persian empire.
At the beginning ,Persians won until year 617. And from year 622, Romans took the advantage.
here to study the history facts https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Sasanian_War_of_602%E2%80%93628

So quran asks us to see what happend in the sky during september equinox of years between 617 and 622.
Let see what we find.

20 September 617 was in fact a very particular night from astronomical point of view.

Equinox night

http//www.codeguru.com/cpp/cpp/date_time/article.php/c4763/Equinox-and-Solstice-Calculation.htm

according to this calculator, it was exactly equinox September 20 617 at 18h 42 GMT

FULL MOON NIGHT

here the link https//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html

The Full moon was exactly September 20 617 at 16h 55.

at this stage, we have our full moon and equinox night.
But there is more. Much more.

SUPER MOON NIGHT

https//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html

this event occurs when moon is at his nearest point from earth (perigee). So moon will appears at its maximum size in the sky.
Term supermoon is applied when moon is between 90% and 100% of its maximum size.

20 September 617, supermoon was at 100%.

Lunar eclipse

it reported that prophet Muhammad prophetized something like a lunar eclipse.
however this is found in the famous beginning verses of sourates

541 The Hour draws near, and the moon is breached.
542 And if they see a sign, they turn away and say ?Ongoing magic!?

and that event occurred the next full moon October 20 617.

it was also a supermoon. Not 100% supermoon but a very beautifull full moon with a great event a lunar eclipse.

here NASA link
https//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLEmap/0601-0700/LE0617-10-20P.gif

https//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLEmap/0601-0700/LE0617-10-20P.gif

Solar Eclipse

another set of famous sourate beginning verses

911 By the Sun and its dhouha (morning soon).
912 And the Moon that comes after it.

that is a solar eclipse and this occurred 14 days after the lunar eclipse and 45 days after the double equinox/shahr of Quran revelation

link of NASA here
https//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsearch/SEsearchmap.php?Ecl=06171104
https//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCSEmap/0601-0700/617-11-04.gif

Planet Alignment

another set of sourate beginning verses

I adapted the traduction of the two first verses of montheist traduction)

371 By the aligned in alignment
372 By the deniers in deny.
373 By the remembrance which follows.
374 Your god is indeed One.
375 The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and what lies between them, and the Lord of the sunrises.
376 We have adorned the lower heaven with the decoration of planets.

Same night of the lunar eclipse whe have alignment of the inner planets of the solar systme

link here http//www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/Solar?di=BBCB8BD1831A921F6B895D045EA4BA4785ABC2FDED83F917E468F28CAC45554630233742244B76ED7173FE42E0726B3AADB5EEEE4C606FD28FDDC73D31008475E9308C30A69B482E558BB9D47CE175A6

http//www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/Solar?di=BBCB8BD1831A921F6B895D045EA4BA4785ABC2FDED83F917E468F28CAC45554630233742244B76ED7173FE42E0726B3AADB5EEEE4C606FD28FDDC73D31008475E9308C30A69B482E558BB9D47CE175A6

Astronomical Conclusion

There is much more than we needed at this stage.

1514 And if We opened for them a gate in the heaven and they were to continue ascending into it,
1515 They would have said ?Our sight has been fogged. No, we are a people being bewitched!?

Now, is these astronomical events coincidence ?
Is it forgery of brother noshirk ?

To be continued

[noshirk]

Part 3 Historical and calendars Arguments

What is the Quranic Calendar

It is a big mistake to search for an "administrative calendar" in Quran. All what quran need is to fix with precision what are the dates of meetings between Allah and his followers. No need to define months, their names, that feast x is day y of month z...

As we have seen before, Allah use sun an moon to fix all what he needs.

The great problem of old calendars in humanity was to fix a calendar that don't' derive regards of seasons. This was impossible since a dozen of lunar month is equal to 354,47 days and a solar year is 365,24 days and that all this change. No way to fit easily and even nowadays we have to make some adjustments (fox example a bissextile year for 4 year but not when year can't be divided by 100).

However, many historical calendars decided to bein year in the spring equinox. Persian calendar, Jewish calendar, Hindu calendar. Even in Roman calendar, we find traces of seven, eight, nine and ten is names of September, October, November and December.

The more interesting calendar for us, as "people of the book" is the jewish calendar since quran mention it. Jewish calendar is luni-solar. That is it is base on 12 lunar months with years called embolismic containing 13 months (7 embolismic years each 19 years). So they "forget" 11 days each year to regroup them in an extra month some other year. And that is nassiya (the forgetting)

937 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year, and forbidden one year, so as to circumvent the count of what God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God has made forbidden. Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.

As we will see, Hejri calendar is even worse since the forgetting is without remembering.
However, for Jews, the first month is the one after spring equinox. And they have formula

Numbers 28-16 ?On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD?s Passover,

Passover correspond to Easter Feats (P?ques in French). there is big controversy about how to fix date. Even if christians cannot see that, but in the "christian formula" we see both equinox and full moon

"Easter is the Sunday following the 14th day of the moon that reaches this age on or immediately after March 21st."

Christians have problems to see that March 21 means spring equinox. And they have been astray to very complex algorithms mainly because of multiples changes of calendars conventions.

Let return to Quran.
Quran pretend to confirm old scriptures and not to change everything.

936 Iddatou (count and not number) of the Ashor (full moons) with God is twelve (full moons) in the book of God the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

So Quran ask to count only 12 full moon each year and then not to take into account the eventual 13th full moon in the moon. There is 4 among the 12 that are sacred.
The next verse explains us that this 4 sacred months are of equal length

2827 He said ?I wish you to marry one of my two daughters, on condition that you work for me through eight Hijajs (pilgrimage/sacred); if you complete them to ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, God willing, of the righteous.?

Since it is tooken as unit of time, (8 or ten) hijaj have quite the same length.

So we have 4 sacred Full moons. Around 21 march, 21 June, 21 September and 21 December.

Full moon of 21 March is Passover for Jews and Easter for Christians.
Full moon of 21 September is quite (because of nassiya) the Hajj Succot of Jews. And it is Ramadan for us. It is deleted from christianism even if Mentionned in Gospel (John 7-2 and 7-37)
Pentecost (Pentec?te) Chavouot is not clear but is around end may and beginning of June
for jews (May 30 in 2017, 20 Mai 2018, 9 june in 201 while for christians it is June 4 in 2017 , May 20 in 2018 and June 9 in 2019).

These are the three jew pilgrimnage. The lacking one is the Hajj of "christmas" associated to the messiah.

2197 The Pilgrimage Full Moons are made known (maaloumat). So whoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor wickedness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O you who possess intelligence.

Notice that until now, we used no hadith and quite scriptures to fix our sacred Full moon.
We have just to find how a year begin in Quran. This is the verse obtained by googling aam (year) in quran

1249 ?Then after that will come a (aam) year in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to Yaasiroun once again.?

So the year unit seem to be associated to agriculture cycle from beginning to production.

1236 And with him in the prison entered two young men. One of them said ?I dreamt that I was pressing (AASARA) alcohol,? and the other said ?I dreamt that I was carrying bread on top of my head, and that the birds were eating from it.? ?Tell us its interpretation, for we see that you are of the good doers.?

The use of same verb Aassara , 13 verses up, seems to indicate that we are speaking about grapes and wine. And the entire agriculte cycle for this product begins in March.

Historical Arguments

Brother Ayman came up with an istering history
"http//www.alim.org/library/biography/khalifa/content/kum/14/4"

Some time in 638 AD, Abu Musa Asha'ari, the Governor of Basra wrote
"Amir-ul-Mominin, we receive instructions from you every now and then, but as the letters are undated, and some times the contents of the letters differ, it becomes difficult to ascertain as to which instructions are to be followed."
That set Umar thinking. In the meantime, he received from Yemen a draft for some money which was encashable in Shaban. Umar thought that the practice of merely mentioning the month in such cases was defective for one could not be sure whether the month referred to was of the current or the following year.
Umar convened an assembly to consider the question of calendar reform.
Some one suggested that the Roman calendar should be adopted. After discussion the proposal was rejected as the Roman calendar dated from too remote an era and was cumbersome.
It was next considered whether the Persian calendar might be adopted. Hormuzan explained the salient features of the Persian calendar called 'Mahroz'. The consensus of opinion was that such a calendar would not be suitable for the Muslims.
The general opinion was that instead of adopting any alien calendar, the Muslims should have a calendar of their own. This was agreed to, and the point next considered was from when should such an era begin?
Some one suggested that the era should begin from the date of birth of the Holy Prophet. Some suggested that it should begin from the death of the Holy Prophet. Ali suggested that it should begin from the date the Muslims migrated from Mecca to Madina. After discussion, Ali's suggestion was agreed to.
The Holy Prophet had migrated in the month of Rabi-ulAwwal, when the year had already run two months and eight days. Next the question arose from which month should the new era start.
Some one suggested that the calendar should start with the month of Rajab as in the pre-Islamic period this month was held sacred. Some one proposed that the first month should be Ramzan as that is a sacred month for the Muslims. Another proposal was that the first month should be 'Zul Hajj' as that is the month of the pilgrimage.
Usman suggested that as in Arabia the year started with Muharram the new era should also start with Muharram. This suggestion was accepted. The date was accordingly pushed back by two months and eight days, and the new Hijri calendar began with the first day of Muharram in the year of migration rather than from the actual date of migration.
Umar accordingly issued instructions to all concerned regarding the enforcement of the Hijri calendar.

Let's analyse without taking all as truth et extract some interesting facts

1- Hejri Calendar was put for administrative reasons and not for religious reasons.
2- It was after the death of rassol that hjiri calendar was invented. Rassool didn't use it.
3- Hejri Calendar could have never existed since other calendars have been considered. And these calendars were not even lunar.
4-the use of old names from preislamic for months (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar)

Now let's calibrate putting each "hijri " in front of actual month

1 Muharram - January
2 Safar - February
3 Rabi? al-awwal - March
4 Rabi? ath-thani - April
5 Jumad? al-ul? - May
6 Jumad? al-akhirah - June
7 Rajab - July
8 Sha?ban - August
9 Ramadan - September
10 Shawwal - October
11 Dhu al-Qa?dah - November
12 Dhu al-Hijjah - December

if fact it is a pure hasard that 9 th mont is september and Ramadan.in both calendar. It proove nothing

More interesting is that Month 3 and 4, whose name traduced in english are Spring First and Spring Second are in March and April.
All looks fine.
And if we use our conting method (no take account of 13th full moon) , we have no more Spring First and Spring Second in summer or winter.

Another confirmation comes from here

http//www.aly-abbara.com/utilitaires/calendrier/calendrier_hijir.html
in wich calcultations shows that in the year 638 where calndar hijri wa salleged to be invented, 14 Ramadan 17 was 29 Spetembre 638.
It was just before the calendar begins is eternal drif (d?rivation) towards seasons.

Last and not least, when Ramadan is always in September, we have no more the funny problem of how long is the day and the night in the north pole and nordic country.
In equinoxes, day and night has same length in all the word. 12 hours eachs.

Eskimos can convert now to islam

To be continued

[noshirk]

Part 4 What to do In Ramadan and what is siyyam

Siyyam is spiritual retreat, no speaking to humans, listening words of God

As we will see, there is absolutely no mention of no eating and no drinking in quran.
Nowhere in quran. Ramadan or not ramadan.

First verse give an exact definition of what is siyyam

1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed an abstinence (Siyyam) for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??

Please note that it is formulated as definition. I make Siyyam so i will not talk to mankind.

Let see now the famous verse where "muslims" hallucinate not to speak and drink

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of SIYYAM to BACHIR your women. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you;
now you may BACHIR them and SEEK WHAT GOD HAS WRITTEN TO YOU. And you may EAT and DRINK until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not BACHIR them while you are AAKIFOUN (reraet) in the MASJID.
These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

First remark is that it is allowed to

• BACHIR Women and Drink and Eat before dawn
• Only No Bachir after . No mention of no drink and no eat.

That is there is absolutely no mention of not to drink and not to drink. It is a deduction and a very bad deduction.
Bachir has nothing to do with sexual approach. Bachara is the skin, to be in front of. Bachar is humans. Moubachara is the term that mean in direct in TV. Absolutely nothing to do with sex. We are in spiritual retreat context and no to speak to wifes is a minimum. It make no sense for Allah to ask people no to di sex in Masjid. Let be serious.
Not the spiritual retreat is clearly mentionned in the verse through the word Aakifoun. And the place in wich retrat occurs is masjid.

Masjid is not a temple. Masjid derivate from word SJD and means the place where Soujourd occurs. and Soujourd is the obedient listening of word of God. We can even consider site free-minds as masjid. Dictionnary says that soujoud means linstening and acquiesce with movement up and own of head. Like jewish do with exaggeration when readin torah. like some muslims do while reading Quran.
Quranically, we have to oppose masjid to mihrab, that is the place we accommodate home for the salat, that is reading words of Allah. The salat Jomoua is the salat in group, that is connexion to God in group (and not friday), in order to try understand collectively words of god.

However, it is clearly mentionned here

731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at EVERY MASJID, and eat and drink and do not waste ; He does not like the wasters.

that we can eat and drink at every masjid. Ramadan or nor ramadan. We have to be in the better conditions to understand what Allah sent to us.
It is stupid not to drink and eat.

The prophet who was not speaking 3 days in September.

It was Zacharie. let's try to proove it.

First, let's remember that in equinox days, laylatou al qadr

973 The Equinox is better than one thousand Full moons.
974 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter.

When Zachariah asked god for a child, and god accepted, Zachariah asked for a sign.
this sign is mentioned in two verses

341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

Three nights or three days ? What was the sign ?
Unless we admit this a an error in quran and Allah forgot what sign he gave, we have to accept that Zachariah was already making siyyam of speaking during the day and Allah completed the nights. It is the only way to solve the problem.

Zachariah was then fasting 3 days, that is no speaking.

Now let's proove that it was in Spetember. It is more difficult.

First, we have to note that Issa is really born around shahr haram of christmas.
this is given by
1925 ?And shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will cause ripe dates to fall upon you.?

date are ripes in december. Dates harvesting is from october to december.

9 months before. we are in march. Around laylatou el qadr of spring in wich Mary was "inseminated" by an angel. As we know, angels are sent down layalatou el qadr and they can come also in laylatou al qadr of march.

Gospel of Luc is the only place in old scriptures where story of Zacharime is mentioned. It is mentionned that he couldn't speak and it is also mentionned that Yahia had a name never used before. Quran confirmed all That giving a strong power to this passage. And This passage of Gospel of Luc give us another information. Yahia is born 6 months before Issa.

So the announce to Zachariah was made 6 months before the announce to Mary. And it was then around equinox of September, in which we have found our Zachariah fasting from speaking.

Can people of "no drink and no eat" show me someone that don't eat and drink in Quran ?

About Hajj

it is not the main object of the thread. So i will be brief

Hajj derive from root hjj wich mean proof, arguments. That is what i do here, in masjid free-minds where i study words of god giving arguments (hojajs)

The aim of hajj is double nourishment. Body Nourishment and spiritual nourishment.
During hajj we give eating to poor. We have to bring Marwa (drinking) and SAFA (eating or more exactly aligned livestock).

But there is also the spiritual noursishment.
During the Hajj there is two main kind of particpants

1- The hojjajs that is the debators, the people who come for debating.
2- The ones making Omra. That is literally the ones who fills (imara is building filled by humans). That is participants who comes for listening to debates and learn about what Allah sent for them. During the day, they have to fast from speaking since they are here to learn and not to make noise. And during the night of the seminar, it is feast for all, drinking and eating.

Monoheist Traduction
2196 And conclude the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are secure, then whoever makes the visit, but decides to continue until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten - this is for those whose family is not resident at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

My Traduction
2196 And conclude the Hajj and the OMRA for God. But, if you are restricted, try to obtain what is possible of guidance; and do not raise your heads until guidance reaches its destination (that is your minds). Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head (not able to understand), then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or whatever way that bring him closer to god.
AND When AMANA was given to you (same root as iman and that is the knowledge), then
whoever was there for Omra (learning) in Hajj, then he take what he found of teachings and if he didn't found then he have to make the spiritual retreat and siyyam (learn alone)
and when back home, he have to add seven day of siyyam (for review of teachings) to complete the ten days, that is for those whose family is not present at the Listening of haram during Hajj. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

So Hajj is
3 days of Siyyam during the forum/conferences
7 days of spiritual retreat for those who were there with family (so we can suppose that others have to transmit what they learned to their family).

10 days For God.

and of course, there is 4 hajj in the year.
Full moon is of course a good way to illuminate special nights with natural light.

Conclusion

4823 Such is the way of God with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in the way of God.

People who believe that islam is a new religion brought by prophet Muhammad are very far from truth.

Islam is the search of silm in the aim to be salim, that is to have good health, body (ins) and spirit (jinn).
Spiritual health is obtained by seeking for teaching of Allah, verses or natural ayats (science), by reading, thinking, meditating, observing, debating.

Allah is light. What people in the darkness do cannot be your deen.

5103 God did not decree BAHIRA (??), or SAIBA(??), or WASSILA(??), or HAM (??); but the people who rejected invented lies to God, and most of them do not comprehend.
5104 And if they are told ?Come to what God has sent down, and to the messenger;? they say ?We are content with what we found our fathers doing.? What if their fathers did not know anything nor were guided?

Finished

Please don't do stupid things next month.
With greetings of Jomoa Dukhani of Salat (Dukhani group and not Dukhani friday )
Hope that you will no more go to the pagan temples called masjid nowadays.

Peace

[The_Sardar]

I must say you did hard work for this and i must commend you for hard work. bravo bravo bravo

By the way i google your name i found this french site https//www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjpt7DuhYnUAhXKjiwKHUnEBxMQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnawaat.org%2Fportail%2F2015%2F09%2F14%2Fla-question-de-lauthenticite-du-coran%2F&usg=AFQjCNHgbY3S7PAJOQViN8e3p1R27PJQxg&sig2=Jl_OtlpAgXnekHGR8BFNcw

Was that you who is Cheikh Dukhani? Or am i mistaken you for someone elese, if i did then i apologise.

[huruf]

I must say you did hard work for this and i must commend you for hard work. bravo bravo bravo

By the way i google your name i found this french site https//www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjpt7DuhYnUAhXKjiwKHUnEBxMQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnawaat.org%2Fportail%2F2015%2F09%2F14%2Fla-question-de-lauthenticite-du-coran%2F&usg=AFQjCNHgbY3S7PAJOQViN8e3p1R27PJQxg&sig2=Jl_OtlpAgXnekHGR8BFNcw

Was that you who is Cheikh Dukhani? Or am i mistaken you for someone elese, if i did then i apologise.

Exactly my opinion.

Great job

Salaam

[reel]

Great job noshirk. Coincidentally, I was thinking about those verses about fasting all day.

[Wakas]

See

http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0
and
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
and
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
and
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

[hanslan]

excellent work!

[Noon_waalqalami]

2185 Shahr RAMADAN, in which the Qur?an was revealed...

Peace noshirk, long thread with numerous topics and what did it primarily mean at the time?

2185 shahru ramadan (heat) the one descends in it the Qur?an?
perf558 shahru jumada (parched) the first from sanatin twosome and twenty (22) ...

http//oi67.tinypic.com/nfogsg.jpg

Perf 558 "30 pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" 25 April year 643 shahru jumada the first (30th last day of month)

http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

New Moon
April 24 Jumada al-awwal 29; April 25 Jumada al-awwal 30 (Perf 55
May 23 Jumada al-thani 28
June 21 Rajab 28; June 24 Shaban 1; July 7 (first full moon after summer solstice)
July 21 Shaban 28; July 23 Ramadan 1
Aug 20 Ramadan 29; Aug 21 Ramadan 30

Sana=Lunar Month

The argument is based on verse 29-14 where it said that Noah is still between his people 1000 sana less 50 aam (years). Understanding of Sana=lunar month leads to a tota duration of 33 years while understanding of sana year or equivalent (12 lunar month) leads to a duration of 950 years.

We have same problem with verse 18-25 where people of cavern stayed 309 sana, which is exactly 25 solar years instead of the classical understanding of 309 years.

inconsistent mixing different words and "they" who claim 309

1825 and stayed they of in cave theirs three hundred sinna and increases they of nine of
1826 say the god knows in what stayed they of ...

Not months...
2618 said did not we raise you among us child of and stayed thou among us from upkeep your sinna
2914 and surely sends we of Noah of to folk his so stayed among them thousand sanatin except fifty Aama ...
4615 ... and reach forty sanatan ...
704 ascends the angels and the spirit toward him in day be measure its fifty thousand sanatin

302 The Romans have won.
303 At the "nearest" part on the earth. But after their victory, they will be defeated.

So quran asks us to see what happend in the sky during september equinox of years between 617 and 622.

Where does qur'an ask this?

301 alif lam meem
302 ghalabat/triumph she the romans
303 in lowest the land and they from after triumph theirs shall defeated being
304 in bii/several (i.e. 3 to 9) sinna (not months) to god the directive from before and from after and day therein exulted the believing

it reported that prophet Muhammad prophetized something like a lunar eclipse.
however this is found in the famous beginning verses of sourates

541 The Hour draws near, and the moon is breached.
542 And if they see a sign, they turn away and say ?Ongoing magic!?

and that event occurred the next full moon October 20 617.

Peruse all occurrences of "the hour" which pertains to end time not 1400 years ago...

7187 ask they you about the hour when arrival its say only knowledge its near/with lord mine ...

1514 And if We opened for them a gate in the heaven and they were to continue ascending into it,
1515 They would have said ?Our sight has been fogged. No, we are a people being bewitched!?

Now, is these astronomical events coincidence ?
Is it forgery of brother noshirk ?

Not about calendars...

1512 like such we let enter it in hearts the criminals
1513 not believing in it and assuredly passed manner the former
1514 and in case open we of upon them gate of from the heaven and continue they of in it ascending
1515 surely would say they of only intoxicated vision ours rather we folk bewitched being
1516 and surely made we of in the heaven constellations of and adorned it to the onlookers

937 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection...

Not about adding month since word is not in 937 rather postponement or delay ...

936 indeed count l-shuhri/the cycles near/with the god two dual ten (twelve) shahran/cycle of in book the god day creation the heavens and the land therein quartet (group of 4) urumun/prohibit such the creed the value so not thou wrong ye of in them souls yours and fight ye of the idolaters all like/as what fighting you all and know ye of that the god with the righteous

937 only the postponement increase in the disregard misguided in it the ones disregard they of allowing it Aama/year of and prohibiting it Aama/year of to adjust count what prohibit the god so allow they of what prohibit the god beautified for them evil deeds theirs and the god not guided the folk the skeptics

[reel]

The prophet who was not speaking 3 days in September.

It was Zacharie. let's try to proove it.

First, let's remember that in equinox days, laylatou al qadr

973 The Equinox is better than one thousand Full moons.
974 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter.

When Zachariah asked god for a child, and god accepted, Zachariah asked for a sign.
this sign is mentioned in two verses

341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

Three nights or three days ? What was the sign ?
Unless we admit this a an error in quran and Allah forgot what sign he gave, we have to accept that Zachariah was already making siyyam of speaking during the day and Allah completed the nights. It is the only way to solve the problem.

Zachariah was then fasting 3 days, that is no speaking.

Now let's proove that it was in Spetember. It is more difficult.

Oh God, something came in my head. I think its traces still exist in some religions https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

[imrankhawaja]

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray yourselves so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. You may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His signs clear to the people that they may be righteous

RED now its lawfull in night to approach women.. (days of soum)
GREEN it was clear before the current law people use to sexually approach their women due to the human nature of sex hunger .
BLUE its bit tricky eat and drink(consume) ? either its general food or sex hunger in both cases do it untill the changing of sky colors..
BROWN complete the fast untill night ( do not sexually approach them untill night)
NAVY even when you are (akifoon in masjid) do not appraoch your women.. (this point need discussion)

all that time the only restriction in all of the verse is to stop doing sex in day light hours ..

now lets see what is eat and drink either its food or just a idiomatic term used for enjoyment..

let say = consume/enjoy/get satisfied fully it can be anything .. food , sex, travelling, drinking wine, riding horse, living in posh houses, cloths wearing...

so you can enjoy fully anything of it and idiomatically we use this word ..

according to the context the consumption is regarding sex , so before the dawn do it like 3 4 or 5 times so that you get fully satisified with sex hunger so finish that sex hunger untill the night... rotfl brickwall (sorry guys for detailing it according to my own lens)

now sometimes the answer of your probelmeitc points lies with in next verses... we are hunting our BLUE point right now

lets put it on test and see what next verse is saying...

2188 And do not eat your money between you unjustly by bribing the decision makers so that you may eat a part of the money of other people sinfully while you know!

the exact same root is used there for eating or consuming or enjoying or taking ....

so with respect to that the blue point is clear now.. with cross referencing of quran..

there are some parts of world where sunlight hours are long like hell its illogical to be hungrey for about 20 hours
if you are hungry your modd will get off , then you start doing trouble
if you are hungry you try to dishonest with your duties at work
if you are hungey its difficult to do work that required continious energy like labour work in hot desert..
lot more things..

NOTE (all these are my personal understandings everybody need to verify it as per 1736)

i just highlight the point what i have with fasting such a long hours

[siwto]

Quote
"Sana=Lunar Month

The argument is based on verse 29-14 where it said that Noah is still between his people 1000 sana less 50 aam (years). Understanding of Sana=lunar month leads to a tota duration of 33 years while understanding of sana year or equivalent (12 lunar month) leads to a duration of 950 years.

We have same problem with verse 18-25 where people of cavern stayed 309 sana, which is exactly 25 solar years instead of the classical understanding of 309 years."

Salam to all and welcome

I agree with NOON WALQALAM that it does not the translation of "sana" as lunar month because in this case the verse 4616 will be sensless to mean that we are responsible for our self at the age of 3 AAM = Solar years! 3=40X25/309!
Siwto

[reel]

the exact same root is used there for eating or consuming or enjoying or taking ....

so with respect to that the blue point is clear now.. with cross referencing of quran..

there are some parts of world where sunlight hours are long like hell its illogical to be hungrey for about 20 hours
if you are hungry your modd will get off , then you start doing trouble
if you are hungry you try to dishonest with your duties at work
if you are hungey its difficult to do work that required continious energy like labour work in hot desert..
lot more things..

NOTE (all these are my personal understandings everybody need to verify it as per 1736)

i just highlight the point what i have with fasting such a long hours

Thank God, you see what I have been seeing. Every time I want to talk about this I notice people get very defensive. They don't want to hear that they might be causing inconvenience to others. Now I have not seen a verse in which God tells us to be risky for the surrounding people. I can no more see any logic in some of the excuses given to me about the alleged fasting.

[noshirk]

I agree with NOON WALQALAM that it does not the translation of "sana" as lunar month because in this case the verse 4616 will be sensless to mean that we are responsible for our self at the age of 3 AAM = Solar years! 3=40X25/309!
Siwto

46-15 is not saying what you said.

40 years is too old for what verse says. And what to do between 30 "ashor " and 40 years ?
Chiddatou is not rochd (wiseness)
40 lunars month is a good age for first pray to Allah.

Peace

[noshirk]

salaam

One of the teachings of Hajj and Omra is that people making Omra have to fast from speaking to let Hojjajs debate at a good level.

my opinion is that free-minds administrators have to remark that people making Omra are making too much noise here and Hojjajs escaped away.
i hope that they will find a way to better organize the hajj in this "blessed web site"

Peace

[imrankhawaja]

Thank God, you see what I have been seeing. Every time I want to talk about this I notice people get very defensive. They don't want to hear that they might be causing inconvenience to others. Now I have not seen a verse in which God tells us to be risky for the surrounding people. I can no more see any logic in some of the excuses given to me about the alleged fasting.

aww reel , ramdhan mubarak, hope u doing good.

actually i redeem from fasting three years ago.. becuause i preferred second option(feeding poor) as i felt difficulty in keeping long fasts in uk ..

but this year i dnt have any money left for charity rotfl rotfl rotfl

then i look properly the verses and suddenly this thing come in my mind and then i read next verse things get more clear..and finally i m fasting ..

becoz i m single rotfl rotfl i dntneed to give charity otherwise i would be in trouble that i missed the fasts as well as charity..

God i love u really

[reel]

aww reel , ramdhan mubarak, hope u doing good.

actually i redeem from fasting three years ago.. becuause i preferred second option(feeding poor) as i felt difficulty in keeping long fasts in uk

My sectarian aunt has been doing that since I guess the 80s because her kids don't fast.

but this year i dnt have any money left for charity rotfl rotfl rotfl

You can do charity by doing volunteer work )
Money is not always needed.

then i look properly the verses and suddenly this thing come in my mind and then i read next verse things get more clear..and finally i m fasting ..

becoz i m single rotfl rotfl i dntneed to give charity otherwise i would be in trouble that i missed the fasts as well as charity..

God i love u really

https//soulnspiritblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/1348488761322-smiley_rofl.gif

In that sense I am fasting too. In fact, I talk to my fiance only after breaking the fast because that's when he is at home from work.....!

I noticed something from Joseph Islam from the link of Wakas

Question 1
Assuming your fifth reference to be 2187, you have missed 260 where 'kulu wa-ishrabu' is used. In this verse there is clear mention where Prophet Moses asked for water (istasqa) and 12 springs gushed forth and everyone knew of their 'dinking place' (mashrabahum) and then God says 'kulu wa'ishrabu' from God's provisions (rizq). Do you still think that 'kul' and 'ishrab' here fits in completely with your understanding of relax and rejoice?

I know he won't see it. But that question makes me question How do we eat water?

Question 2
You have also missed another crucial phrase "kulli wa isharabi" in 1926. The only difference between this and the ones you have noted is that the phrase 1926 makes use of refers to a female . So, having noted this verse in conjunction with the previous verses which refer to 'rutab' (fresh dates - 1925) and 'sariyaa' (stream - 1924), do you still think that 'kul' and 'ishrab' fits in completely with your understanding of relax and rejoice?

I feel sad that he is not looking at the entire verse 1926.

[jkhan]

So you mean Siyyam is merely abstinence from speaking to others and involvement of pure intention of God by being in a secluded place from dawn to dusk..

But i strongly not your comment denial of eat and drink.. if so why God used eat and drink "Haththa' until white thread is clear from black thread... doesn't it mean stop eating and drinking when you come to that point.. Quran definitely order to fast 3 days of every visible full moon and abstain from eat and drink during day till night fall but abstinence of eat and drink is not the only only thing.. but to abstain from various other worldly matters which we normally do and probably seclude to privacy the most of the time..

What to say????

[jkhan]

in addition to that,, Allah orders for errors and of people to fast consecutive 60 days.. and further says it is a punishment for them for their work to feel.. So if fasting 60 days is sort of a punishment, how can it be a punishment if one just seclude without speaking to any ? no way unless he or she is deprived of food and drink to during day time for consecutive 60 days.. just imagine with your logic..am i correct?

Even i believe whoever recorded the order or revelation it is correct.. order of revelation of chapter 2 where fasting is mentioned as an act which makes a person pious is revealed as 87th order of revelation.. whatever of fasting (as an act) mentioned in the quran is appearing after 87th revelation and not before 87th.. this is clear that even these punishments of fasting or during haj were revealed after 2183-2187.. Because if allah not define the time of fasting how even as a punishment they would fast.. Allah is very specific.. just think about it deeply.. In quran the mere word fasting (not order to fast) would have appeared before chapter 2 183 -2187.. it's fine because no ordering..

Study and let me know...