Ramadan is spiritual retreat, 3 days, in the 7th full moon after march equinox

jkhan

341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

You were mentioning Allah got it wrong.. by saying Three nights and three days in two separate verses.. i think what allah mentioned is absolutely right.. It is mentioned 3 Ayyam and not 3 Nahar, had it mentioned 3 Nahar it is definitely contradictory.. Nahar is day light time absence of pure darkness because of night.. Nahar (day) + Lail (night) is Yaum, so what Allah mentioned is three complete days (ayyam) which included three nights (lail)

The_Sardar

341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

You were mentioning Allah got it wrong.. by saying Three nights and three days in two separate verses.. i think what allah mentioned is absolutely right.. It is mentioned 3 Ayyam and not 3 Nahar, had it mentioned 3 Nahar it is definitely contradictory.. Nahar is day light time absence of pure darkness because of night.. Nahar (day) + Lail (night) is Yaum, so what Allah mentioned is three complete days (ayyam) which included three nights (lail)

So if i get this right we are to fast 3 days entire days or fast on the night of 3 days? Apologizes if i misread you.

jkhan

that's totally different.. here in 341 and 1910 fasting is not mentioned, but only of not talking to people is mentioned.. verses 2183-187 is more than enough explanation for fasting..341 and 1910 is totally away from the subject and it is specific for Zackaria.. As a sign only .. may be hidden reasons could be there why allah asked him not to talk.. may be to avoid leaking of the message or unnecessary arguments with people and family or etc...

In the case of Mary abstain (siyaam) is mentioned.. only not to talk.. but she was not told to use as a sign language .. how she will say to people i am abstaining from talking.. what's the big deal just saying.. sorry folks i am not talking today .. by just saying this nothing of special topic will be out with the people.. Further Was Mary really abstaining or Did she really get as a directive from God to abstain from talking with people or just asked to act? She was not given an order abstain but God says "just tell them i am abstaining.. May be the similar to Zackaria command, but without sign lang.

But fasting in 2183-187 is crystal clear abstain from food drink most of worldly matters such as sex, and getting secluded ..if 2 consecutive fasting is punishment and it strongly believe one month fasting also can be a sort punishment.. but not three days even any part of the world in any season..but option of exemption is given...

Further in those verses.. it is stated who missed fasting can fast in OTHER DAYS... but not stated as other days of of shawwal or any other months before next ramadhan.. it is also key in my opinion of 3 days...IF allah not intend hardship i think this could be the best.. one month is always hardship for half of the people in the world not for those who stays at home for who are hard workers and specially living in non muslim countries..

The_Sardar

that's totally different.. here in 341 and 1910 fasting is not mentioned, but only of not talking to people is mentioned.. verses 2183-187 is more than enough explanation for fasting..341 and 1910 is totally away from the subject and it is specific for Zackaria.. As a sign only .. may be hidden reasons could be there why allah asked him not to talk.. may be to avoid leaking of the message or unnecessary arguments with people and family or etc...

In the case of Mary abstain (siyaam) is mentioned.. only not to talk.. but she was not told to use as a sign language .. how she will say to people i am abstaining from talking.. what's the big deal just saying.. sorry folks i am not talking today .. by just saying this nothing of special topic will be out with the people.. Further Was Mary really abstaining or Did she really get as a directive from God to abstain from talking with people or just asked to act? She was not given an order abstain but God says "just tell them i am abstaining.. May be the similar to Zackaria command, but without sign lang.

But fasting in 2183-187 is crystal clear abstain from food drink most of worldly matters such as sex, and getting secluded ..if 2 consecutive fasting is punishment and it strongly believe one month fasting also can be a sort punishment.. but not three days even any part of the world in any season..but option of exemption is given...

Further in those verses.. it is stated who missed fasting can fast in OTHER DAYS... but not stated as other days of of shawwal or any other months before next ramadhan.. it is also key in my opinion of 3 days...IF allah not intend hardship i think this could be the best.. one month is always hardship for half of the people in the world not for those who stays at home for who are hard workers and specially living in non muslim countries..

I am not good at fasting that i can tell you.

jkhan

that's between you and your Lord... After all the real successful people (believers) are mentioned in Chapter 23 first 9 verses.. i think chapter mumin titled.. in it fasting or pilgrimage is not stated to be a real believer.. it shows it is not for all in common.. whatever is mentioned in those 9 verses definitely can b and should b done by all who think they are muslims and specially beliver at least in their best part of life...

noshirk

Salaam All

many people have difficulties to reject the old belief that siyam is not to eat and not to drink.

now let see the problem from another side.
Where Quran ask us not to eat and not to drink ?
if found no verse asking such a thing and there is just a deduction (false for me) from the verse 2-187 in which nowhere it is told not to eat and drink.
With the same kind false deduction, we can deduce that we can approach sexually women in masjid outside ramadan (2-187 in fact is not speaking about sex and bachara is not sex but simply facing spouses. It is forbidden to talk to them during spiritual retreat).

however, in verse 2-187, it is clearly said that you have to seek what god written for you while you are in retreat in a place called masjid.
not to eat and drink would contradicts this verse
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.

Abraham said
2679 ?And He is the One who feeds me and gives me to drink.?

Allah is the one who give food and drink. Not the one who ask us not to drink and eat
It is chaytan who make the opposite and ask not to eat and not to drink

there is other incitations to drink and eat

587 O you who believe, do not make unlawful the good things that God has made lawful to you, and do not aggress; God does not love the aggressors.
588 And eat from what God has provided for you, good and lawful; and be aware of God in whom you believe.

2172 O you who believe, eat from the good things We have provided for you, and be thankful to God; if it is Him you serve.

suffering is from chaytan and for his scholars.
1044 God does not wrong the people in the least, but it is the people who wrong themselves.

Ramadan is spiritual retreat. Eat what Allah gave you, normal food ans spiritual food.
Eating and drink help thinking, meditating.

Good Ramadan 2018. It is 24th,25th and 26th september this year.

Peace

Wakas

peace no shirk,

Your deduction on 2187 is poor. Simply put, Quran says eat and drink until X, thus clearly indicating that out with X you do not eat/drink. And since it is using a timing reference, it obviously refers to a period of time.

The following two points in your post are reasonable (against the common understanding) but nothing significant in my view

we can deduce that we can approach sexually women in masjid outside ramadan

not to eat and drink would contradicts this verse
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.

As is often the case with various understandings put forth, they selectively deal with certain aspects and neglect others, making their view seem plausible.

noshirk

peace no shirk,

Your deduction on 2187 is poor. Simply put, Quran says eat and drink until X, thus clearly indicating that out with X you do not eat/drink. And since it is using a timing reference, it obviously refers to a period of time.

Salaam Bro
let's be more precise with X.

Let X =Eat and Drink
Let Y= Approch your women

Verse 2-187 says; until dawn do X and do Y and after dawn no more do Y

so no more do X is an hallucination.
let suppose it is obvious deduction, then why 2-187 says no more do Y since it is obvious ?
if is not obvious deduction , Allah would have said , no more do X and no more do Y.

so people hallucinating not eat and not drink are applying different rules in the same verse.

the second problem is that 2-187 says more. Do not do Y while you are 3akifin in masjid. That is spiritual retrear.
so "siyyam" occurs in masjid and in spiritual retreat.
who is doing that ?

in september 25 i will
eat and drink when i want (and perhaps i will drink a beer while studing quran)
make spirituel retreat in a room where i make soujoud (listentening) to what Allah write for me.
not speak to my wife (and other humans) during day.

i will fullfill all the verse.

Allah nourish me and give me to drink and shaytan don't like that.
Please note that nowhere in Quran Allah says don't eat and don't drink because Allah never ask us for such stupid things.
However, ask to study Quran, meditate and connect to Allah that is not strange from Allah. And it is better done when not thirsty or hungry. Not good for concentration. And why diabetics are dispensed of theses spirituel studies and meditation ?

Peace

Wakas

peace,

Unfortunately for you Quran does not say what you want it to say.

You claim it says

Verse 2-187 says; until dawn do X and do Y and after dawn no more do Y

What it actually says (translation)

...and eat and drink until becomes distinct the white thread from the black thread, of dawn, then you shall complete the abstinence until the night and do not approach them...

I have colour co-ordinated to make it easier for readers to spot what you missed out (hint the part in black underlined, connected with co-ordinating conjunction thumma which links statements together i.e. one before and one after).

If you disagree, each to their own. Simply go ask anyone you consider competent

If I say to you eat and drink until dawn then complete the abstinence to a set time

what does the abstinence refer to?
can I eat and drink during the abstinence period?

Let us know what they say.

noshirk

Salaam

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment libass for you and you are a garment libass for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you;
now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

libass root describe the way threads are tied in a garment. it is an image for the complex relation between a man and his wife.
rafath and bachir are not the same word.
rafath is
.

and describe the special speaking between a man and his wife.

bachar is related to skin and mean to face. As you now, moubachir is tv in direct and moubachir is someone you give good news.
for example, in 4-165, messengers are sent to give good news and not to do sex with us.

the classic comprehension, full of sex, is interesting only for psychiatrists.

red and blue allowed util dawn
only red forbidden after dawn

and this is clear definition of siyyam
1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed an saouman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??

siyyam =not to speak because of sipiritual retreat is compatible with not to speak to women in masjid during siyyam.
not doing sexual relations with women in masjid is a non sense recommendation for ramadan. Applying same kind of reasonning, i can deduce that i have the right to do sex in masjid with women if it is not ramadan.

nowhere in quran we found i will make saoum so i will not eat and not drink. No where in quran there is not eat and not drink.
it is a satanic hallucination.

i repeat Allah is who feed you and give you to drink
he is not the one who forbid them to you. Pease meditate on this.
Ramadan is for spiritual nourishment. Ins (the body) and the jinn (spirit) should both be nourished.

Peace

Cerberus

Fasting gives you more knowledge about yourself. Everything is amplified, and all the little things in you become manifest.
Very useful.

3 days out of 365 days isn't a reasonable amount of fasting though. unless you think of it as some sort of weird ritual.

Wakas

peace,

and this is clear definition of siyyam
1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed an saouman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??

siyyam =not to speak because of sipiritual retreat

No. It seems you have not considered the rather obvious possibility that sawm simply means abstinence, and it is the context that will determine from what. Not only can this be deduced from this verse but is also blatantly obvious from classical arabic dictionaries.

As I said, go ask the question I posed to anyone you consider competent. You will quickly realise what's what.

imrankhawaja

its not that simple,

fasting from what ? food or sex ? or both ?
either this ?eat and drink? define the physical eating ?
the fast of marry in quran is equal to the method of fasting ?

noshirk

Salaam

As I said, go ask the question I posed to anyone you consider competent. You will quickly realise what's what.

it is a strange advice dear wakas. Seem quite to be the opposite of the advice of God
47-16

Majority is astraying
6-116

Perhaps it is for that that Allah ask us to make a spiritual retreat to meet Allah alone and not speaking to astraying people.

However, in the case you consider me competent, let me tell you something
Salat, Zakat, Saoum, and hajj are coherent and aim to guive you guidance.
Salat is reading litte Quran twice a day alone in a place called mihrab at home. It is also a masjid since every place where soujoud occurs is a masjid. Theis web site is a masjid. And Soujoud is a listening+obeying.
Salat, sometimes, occurs in group. That Salat Jomoua. In can be on monday or sunday, no matter. The important is to meditate in group aboute what Allah send us.
Zakat is the purification obtained from salat. That is throwing away Bullshits invented by chaytan.
Saoum is three days dedicated to salat.
Hajj is the debate in wich hojjajs (debators) d?bate while whose making Omra listen. Of Course, people making Omra have to do siyyam.

The set is "coherent".

All is about guidance, listening Words of God and of course trying to understand what he send us and trying to avoid what Chaytan send us (don't eat, don't drink, prosternate towars a cubic stone, stone chaytan and son on...). Chaytan is a very creative guy and he first need to convince you not to read and meditate what Allah Sent and try always to send you to some of his devoted pupils described as "competent" people.

No. It seems you have not considered the rather obvious possibility that sawm simply means abstinence, and it is the context that will determine from what. Not only can this be deduced from this verse but is also blatantly obvious from classical arabic dictionaries.

let see a dictionnary

Ibn Fris, Maqys al-Lugha

&#1614 . . { } .

...

. . .

.

seems that the wod saoum means kind of abstinence + (staying in place sun) .
Strangely, the "staying in place" seems more important than the "abstinence".
the quranic sample point to thet aya 19-26
and the "traditionnal understanding" is of course mentionned without quranic reference.

Now my question is
When he have to do siyam like Meriem did in 19-26 ?
When we have to make 3oukouf in masjid during day like 2-187 says ?

dear wakas
the belief of "not to eat and not to drink" is a belief i had before.
I rejected it totally because it has no sense and is not in Quran.
I didn't rejected that belief because i didn't knew what "competent" people and "dictionnaries" says as you seems to belief.
I will continue to make saoum as i understand now and if Allah ask me from where i get this i will show him his book and his verses without calling any competent guy to help me.

My turn to ask you something.
I ask you simply to take 2 or 3 days and to meditate alone about what Allah send to you, far away from burdening humans.
The only competent guy i ask you to follow is yourself while under the sabil.((&#1614 &#1548 and not under any other lateral "revelation".
24,25, and 26 September would be good dates.
no matter if you don't want to call that ramadan or siyyam.

Peace

noshirk

Fasting gives you more knowledge about yourself. Everything is amplified, and all the little things in you become manifest.
Very useful.

3 days out of 365 days isn't a reasonable amount of fasting though. unless you think of it as some sort of weird ritual.

Salaam
why not do it all the year if it is so useful for you ? 30 days seems to be insufficient for you.
Peace

noshirk

Dear Wakas

i will give you a funny and very useful trick/criteria i use to distinguish truth from falsehood.
it is the mockery criteria
since Allah is wisdom and Chaytan is foolishness people following Allah can easily mock people following chaytan.

For example, you cannot mock the way i do salat and saoum as it is lecture, meditation and thinking about quran. But i can very easily mock the way "muslims" following "imams" do salat and saoum and hajj.

Think about Abraham and the idols of his people. To silent him, his people has the violence criteria to win and it is only possible when they are numerous.
Chaytan tries always to label wisdom all his foolishness.
it is why when you hear now to "muslim scholars" pretending to on "the wisdom" path, you hear only rubbish.

in fact, it is a reasonable criteria since you will not be able the judgement day to mock deen of Allah and present a better deen. The judgment day is not a day where Allah will use violence to impose his opinion but a day where it will obvious for foolish that they were foolish and that they followed chaytan revelation and not Allah Revelation.

Allah is wisdom. Chaytan is foolishness.
We have to never forget this even if chaytan will always try to call foolishness wisdom and wisdom foolishness.

i am ready to say this to Allah the judgement day
"Not to eat and not to drink is foolishness. No wisdom in this and for people doing this.
Meditating about what you sent us is wisdom. No foolishness in this and for people doing this."

Peace

Cerberus

Allah is wisdom. Chaytan is foolishness.
We have to never forget this even if chaytan will always try to call foolishness wisdom and wisdom foolishness.

i am ready to say this to Allah the judgement day
"Not to eat and not to drink is foolishness. No wisdom in this and for people doing this.
Meditating about what you sent us is wisdom. No foolishness in this and for people doing this."

What if simply, indulging in pleasurable activities on a daily basis brought a kind of sloppiness to your mind ? If you can't tell, you can't tell.

noshirk

What if simply, indulging in pleasurable activities on a daily basis brought a kind of sloppiness to your mind ? If you can't tell, you can't tell.

Dear Cerberus
you can accuse who you want of "sloppiness in mind".
However it is clearly incompatible with the "comments" of hard work i received in the beginning of the thread.

What is funny is that it is not the first time i receive a free psychological analysis.

according to french wikipedia (traduced by google)
Indoctrination involves the regular use of various means of psychological pressure such as fear, hope, guilt or the indefinite hammering of the same affirmations, socio-emotional training, etc. by working to short-circuit the critical thinking skills of the person whose thoughts are being changed, or even the personality

what i mean, indoctrination is the top level of "sloppiness in mind " and is rarely based on "pleasurable activities".
deprivation of food and drink would better fit with the "indoctrination" process and the "mind sloppiness".

As i said, Wisdom is from Allah and Foolishness is from Chaytan.
But what do you think about this affirmation " Pleasure is from Allah and sadness is from Chaytan" ?
and about "Allah love beauty and Chaytan love ugliness" ?

Why there is some people who think that Allah is angry when they take pleasure ?
Why some "muslim" women think that to be lovely inside they have to be "ugly" in their "external" appearance.

Lastly, If we ask Quran, the main reason of "mind sloppiness" would be willing to follow deen of ancestors even if they were wrong.

as you see, "mind sloppiness" is a very interesting subject to study.
It would involve Quranic words like rijss, khamr and sakran for example.
sakran for example, is "mind closed" and not drunk. And the most "mind closed" people i met never drink wine.

Peace

Cerberus

Sorry it's my mediocre english in action.
"What if simply, indulging in pleasurable activities on a daily basis brought brings a kind of sloppiness to your mind ?"
I'm not calling you that. I think it's clearer now.

But what do you think about this affirmation " Pleasure is from Allah and sadness is from Chaytan" ?

I assume you refer to this "479 Any good that befalls you is from Allah, and any evil that befalls you is from yourself."

What I think about it is that WE ARE a duality of something from this earth, material, that will eventually return to the ground, and something from Allah, immaterial and everlasting. And if we act using that which is associated to Allah or using that which is associated to "ourselves" we simply reap the benefits or the consequences accordingly.

Can't see how it helps your opinion;

But this also isn't something tied to the Islamic faith, neither is fasting.

Perhaps if you spent more time reflecting on yourself instead of reflecting on the words of quran, they do not speak but you speak for them and you make what you want of them. And you may not WANT what is right for you because you do not know nor understand.

noshirk

Perhaps if you spent more time reflecting on yourself instead of reflecting on the words of quran, they do not speak but you speak for them and you make what you want of them. And you may not WANT what is right for you because you do not know nor understand.

it is the second personal attack with speculation on my psychiatric disposition.
it is not problem for me.
However, attacking the messenger instead of message is something we can find in Quran

156 And they said ?O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy.?
2370 Or do they say that there is a madness in him? No, he has come to them with the truth, but most of them are hateful of the truth.
348 ?Has he invented a lie against God, or is there a madness in him?? Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter will be in a retribution and are far straying.
3736 And they would say ?Shall we leave our gods because of a crazy poet??
6851 And those who have rejected almost attack you with their eyes when they hear the Reminder, and they say ?He is crazy!?

Hope i will not get another free speculation about my mind and others advice about what i should do

Peace