65:4 tense child marriage/pedophilia
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thanks as always huruf
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I've searched all over the Internet and while they're many claims that make sense saying this refers to women with irregular stops. but no one can disprove that this also means a young girl (because of the jussive meaning that it intends!!). Does this jussive term apply always?
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I've searched all over the Internet and while they're many claims that make sense saying this refers to women with irregular stops. but no one can disprove that this also means a young girl (because of the jussive meaning that it intends!!). Does this jussive term apply always?
No, no, it isn't about just any irregular stops. These are the women in their 40s 50s and 60s. We can also argue for the Quranic common law/resemblance. There has to be a verse which must show that a man married a female child and God is completely okay with it. Tell the sects to bring it. Only then we can accept beyond reasonable doubt that such marriage is approved.
Go to this link https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609108.msg400433#msg400433
Some Quran follower (seems to be a sectarian inside) tried to justify child marriage. He discontinued the debate when dissected verses about women were shown to him. I asked him questions too. He just didn't come to thread after this. -
Child marriage do happened in the past, in some societies marriages were arranged in the childhood, due to various reasons. it was completely seen normal, marriages in the teenage was common some decades back.
What if those people were not guided?
Did any prophet or other people do it in the Quran?As of now, child marriage is very much legal in most American states. I met women who went through it. Yet I wouldn't use this to justify what is not in the Quran, but upheld by sectarians as part of the deen.
Sects can do it simply because they follow atheist doctrine according to which consciousness and free will do not exist. In their eyes, your body and chemical decide whether you are a true Muslim. This is the perfect way to deny a person's right and feelings.
But Allah confirms that in marriage two people are supposed to find peace and love.
And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection ( means love and not affection) and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.3020
Another thing is that Allah wants us to be fully genuine. What we say with the mouth must match what we have in the heart. Promise is a big thing in Quran Islam
And they who are to their trusts and their promises attentive 238
Who will inherit al-Firdaus. They will abide therein eternally.2311
So no playing with the promise of marriage!
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Child marriage do happened in the past, in some societies marriages were arranged in the childhood, due to various reasons. it was completely seen normal, marriages in the teenage was common some decades back.
teen started with the end of thirteenth year so its quite understandable that 14/15/16 years girl marry with 14/15/16/17/18 years boy both are teen anyway..
about child marriage i may disagree , may b it was a normal practice for these people same like it was normal practice for them to kill their daughters in childhoood.. killing them or marrying them in childhood is the act of evil which cant be by God as per my understanding..
the age 6 or 9 with a person more than 50 years is a clear evil.. cannot be from God.. or any normal nation/people.
http//i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/609571920_2/3-6-Years-old-kids-beautiful-model-dresses-2012-fashion-Child-clothes-summer-skirt-free-shipping.jpg
this is a six years old girl... how people can even think to get married with that kid who just start understanding the nature of day and night.. and motion of sun and moon..
may God guide us to the right path
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Even now in some places, Marriage contracts are made at an age of 8 or 9 and couples are made to wait to consummate their marriage at their appropriate age. Thinking about Thousand years back?
totally non quranic practice...
drawbacks..
1 the choices of people become change with the passage of time(face, habbits, beauty)
2 quran advise us to engagge with eachother before marriage for better understanding eachother... 8 and 9 years is still immature age you cant understand eachother surely..
3 making somebody's life decision without their permission is also against God lawsnow think about thousand years back or one hundred thousand years back.. immorality is never encouraged by God in any age of time..
whoever is practicing these things even some of the places in india its still going on but its illegal to practice such acts...
so fourth point is the current practice is illegal hence you are also doing a crime against government laws..
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I see things differently, Ok now for example lets take a case of a girl aged 13, lost her parents, living in a desert community meager population, and now there are only some relatives of her in support for her, What do you think is the best for the girl, to be married or not? You take the role of a village leader to decide the future of the girl.
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I see things differently, Ok now for example lets take a case of a girl aged 13, lost her parents, living in a desert community meager population, and now there are only some relatives of her in support for her, What do you think is the best for the girl, to be married or not? You take the role of a village leader to decide the future of the girl.
ok if ill be the village leader i will decide for her to complete her basic education first atleast higher secondary school .. usually girls complete it when they are 16 .. after that i ll ask her if she want to study more or shall i look a husband for her... if she want to study further then i ll do my best to get her the education whatever she want... and if she want to get married i ll look for her a suitable partner...
in case 2 if a 13 years old girl want to get married i ll look a husband for her... and for atleast two years i ll get them engage so that they know eachother before spending life together ... in this case girls is 15... (my own grandmother married when she was fifteen my gandfather was 19 at that time a perfect match )
in case number 3 if a girls is 6 or 9 years old and a 50 years old person want to get married with her.. then i ll bring the shotgun of my ansectors and perhaps shoot him infront of the whole village (only if i allowed to shoot by God ) voodoo but i think i ll not shoot him as its against my learning ... but i ll make him taste of humilation for demanding such sick wish...
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imrankhwaja they're are muslims and people who very proudly say muhammad had a 9 year old wife...
it makes me sick to my stomach.
and they're stupid arguments..."oh life expectancy was 30!"
well my that logic a 9 year old would marry a fellow 9 year old or MAXIMUN 13 year old..
pedophilia...the one thing that makes me lose faith in a merciful god. but.. its more complicated than that.
i think like it says in the quran, if muhammad married a 9 year old girl allah would have punished him, taken the revelations away from him.
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imrankhwaja they're are muslims and people who very proudly say muhammad had a 9 year old wife...
pedophilia...the one thing that makes me lose faith in a merciful god. but.. its more complicated than that.
forget about people/nations claims
different people claim different weird things about God and his messengers, like christianity, judiasm and islam.. along with hindus and buddists...but what i dnt understand is why your faith is so much weak ?
dnt you beleive in creator who is full of love and full of truth and logic...
do you beleive if some folks claim something and address it to God... will you turn back on your heels?
you must beleive there is not any immorality and illogical thing could be from God other wise he is not God... (thats what logic and mind says about God)peace and God bless you..
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problem of evil is bugging me lately...
faith is not constant. sometimes its strong, sometimes its weak. perhaps when allah is worried you may use your faith to do bad actions, he makes it weak. perhaps when he thinks you need it to be strong, he makes it strong. who knows what he does peace
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Baitachal,
Since no one else appears to be addressing the specific concerns you have, let me do some research for you and give it a shot. As a disclaimer, I could be totally wrong about all or any of this, since I've only looked into it today.
The word "lam yahidna" is in past tense, "women who did not menstruate" , plus the word "yet" is not in the Arabic, hence this proves it's not referring to child marriage.
However the word is also in jussive mood, meaning that she is expecting or it is coming. Hence they say addition of the word 'yet' is justified.
So that is linking to child marriage/pedophilia?Bold I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion, and that conclusion only.
According to the word-by-word analysis of 654 provided by Qur'an Corpus, after lam and next to yai'na, we read "3rd person feminine plural imperfect verb, jussive mood." This is what you're focusing on, yes?
There are a couple different moods for the imperfect in Arabic. The jussive form is one of them. You seem to know this.
As you mentioned, "the jussive form is used in past tense sentences negated by lam" (from the Arabic section of the wikipedia article on jussive mood). According to this site, the jussive with is used to negate (or nullify) the past tense verb. Lam is present in verse 654, as a negative particle. So it's used here to negate the verb - that a given woman does not menstruate. This site further explains that lam is one of the four jussive negative particles that acts on an imperfect verb and negates the past event/verb. So these women (the verse is specifically talking about women, nisa, here) did not menstruate ("...and the ones who not menstruate". Menstruation is something that happened, that could happen, but doesn't anymore (for these women).
The Quranic Path article on the subject suggests that the verse can be referring to women who have never menstruated at all, or gone periods of time without menstruating (a condition called amenorrhea). In addition, sometimes women have premature menopause. (And obviously, all women eventually go into menopause.)
There are more women who may not fall into this exact category but may have irregular menstruation, where they may not menstruate at the same time every month. According to Web MD, "often women with PCOS have fewer than nine periods a year. Some women have no periods." This is a woman who cannot expert a regular menstrual cycle. Many women are affected by PCOS. Supposedly, the syndrome "affects between 8% and 20% of reproductive-age women worldwide" (source).
Interestingly, I also read that Qur'anically (in classical Arabic), is a "weaker" negation than others, potentially meaning something that is still possible but does not happen (see here, post #2 or here, post #12). If this understanding is correct, then it would follow that young girls cannot be of marriageable age because menstruation is not possible for them.
Moving on to other parts of the verse, if we're talking about someone who has despaired or given up hope of menstruation (as spoken about in the beginning of 654), then that likely implies that they have had it before and are waiting for it to come again, but don't believe it will. The only other situation I can imagine where a female would "give up hope" of menstruation is when they are well beyond the age they should be getting menarche (their first period). While the average age for menarche is 12, a girl can get it anywhere between the ages of 8 and 15. So IMO, a girl can only truly "give up hope" of menstruation once she is well beyond the age of 15 with no sign of menstruation (and of course she should also see a doctor). But again, the verse is talking about women, not girls.
Lamma is the classical negative particle that would be used if you were specifically talking about something that has not happened yet (see here). Example in Qur'an 4914 "...you should say 'We have submitted', for belief has not yet entered into your hearts.'"
Even if the Arabic said "did not yet", since the subject is women, it could simply be referring to women who did not yet menstruated in the specific month. After all, a woman does not truly know that she is not pregnant until she has gotten her period - especially in those times. There may have been no way to know about a woman's pregnancy until she was a few months into it. Additionally, menstruation can be delayed for all sorts of reasons, so whether it isn't a woman's time of the month or if she is late at the time of separation, they need to wait because they won't know if she's pregnant or not, and that's important because if she is, she needs to be supported (whether it emotionally, physically, financially...).
Finally, since the verse speaks about doubt/uncertainty over a woman's menstrual cycle. So we have to wonder why is that? For most women, her biggest concern or thought that comes to her mind when she doesn't have her period is pregnancy. If a woman does not have her period, she should have the adequate time to rule out pregnancy.
Anyways, these are my thoughts on the matter.
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ok if ill be the village leader i will decide for her to complete her basic education first atleast higher secondary school .. usually girls complete it when they are 16 .. after that i ll ask her if she want to study more or shall i look a husband for her... if she want to study further then i ll do my best to get her the education whatever she want... and if she want to get married i ll look for her a suitable partner...
in case 2 if a 13 years old girl want to get married i ll look a husband for her... and for atleast two years i ll get them engage so that they know eachother before spending life together ... in this case girls is 15... (my own grandmother married when she was fifteen my gandfather was 19 at that time a perfect match )
in case number 3 if a girls is 6 or 9 years old and a 50 years old person want to get married with her.. then i ll bring the shotgun of my ansectors and perhaps shoot him infront of the whole village (only if i allowed to shoot by God ) voodoo but i think i ll not shoot him as its against my learning ... but i ll make him taste of humilation for demanding such sick wish...
Salaam Imran,
Still who is going to support her education even if education was available for a nomadic desert community?
In todays world war is uncommon and health care is improved but not long before such cases will be frequent, what do you think will happen to such girls without support,
In India there was a system of serving temples/kings and these girls will live there in support of the kingdoms money. Or in other parts of the world slavery was common. Dont you think marriage a better option then? Strange looking customs are there everywhere behind them there will be multiple reasons. My point is Teen marriage is common and fixing a marriage below the age of 10 and then couples made to wait for the right time was not a taboo long back atleast here. -
Salaam Imran,
Still who is going to support her education even if education was available for a nomadic desert community?
w salam amin,
obviously me as a village leader who else... muscle
about education and learning process it exist since adam till today everywhere , depend on the education for example 1400 years ago the person who know horse riding and swimming is known as literate... and teaching these things known as education process.. hope u got it
In todays world war is uncommon and health care is improved but not long before such cases will be frequent, what do you think will happen to such girls without support,
actually if you look the recent history of world
just in last 200 years the people died in wars are much more than the whole population of 7th century..
how many cases you see in which girl is getting married at 6 or 9?and just in recent wars like afghanistan, iraq , libya and syria how many people you see are getting their daughter married at age of 6 or 9 ..
let say as we agree on teen how many cases are there in these countires where a 13 years old get married ? even all these are muslim countries who blindly follow the tradition
i wonder what type of examples you are giving immorality is always consider as immorality regardless of time and technology
In India there was a system of serving temples/kings and these girls will live there in support of the kingdoms money. Or in other parts of the world slavery was common. Dont you think marriage a better option then? Strange looking customs are there everywhere behind them there will be multiple reasons.
slavery is always discouraged by the system of God long before muhammad the moses mission was to free the slaves from pharoah..
and its a criminal offence in india to get a child marriage , why?
i dnt beleive in multiple reasons , what if a women need a food for her kids and she make a reason for selling her body .. to getting food..
becoz with the same body we earn money by labour, art and craft, so why not use this body as a source of earning and giving pleasure to other males ? what is her status infront of God.. becoz by doing this she is earning money, feeding her kids, giving pleasure to males .. three good things she is doing by the body provided to her by God... whats ur position at this point?My point is Teen marriage is common and fixing a marriage below the age of 10 and then couples made to wait for the right time was not a taboo long back atleast here.
10 is not teen , teen started from the ending of thirteenth year...
and its also against the human nature to make a decision of their life forcefully .. in my point of view its a shirk becoz its only God who can decide the decisions regarding the life and death..
who are we to forcefully fix their marriage without asking their permission? are the kids are our salves? or we think just by a tiny drop of semen we become their masters so kids are our property.. no brother i disagree with you handshakelet me ask you just one question it will change ur perception perhaps..
will you agree of giving ur 6 or 9 years daughter to 50 year old person who already have more than one wives?
the answer of this question will make you think in which point i m coming from... -
problem of evil is bugging me lately...
faith is not constant. sometimes its strong, sometimes its weak. perhaps when allah is worried you may use your faith to do bad actions, he makes it weak. perhaps when he thinks you need it to be strong, he makes it strong. who knows what he does D D D peace
its happened with everybody its a human nature...
make sure the mission of devil is to put negetive ideas of things in our mind which may lead us towards darkness..
he and his clans see you from where you dnt see themeven in the mind the angels and satanic forces use the same medium for transferring thoughts and when you strong its mean angelic force overcome satanic force..
sometimes we let satanic force win , when things are attach with emotions and ego.. human being is a sensitive creation ..(example a wife cheats with hes husband, now the satan gives husband a thought of cheat her too, if she sleeps with one man you must have to sleep with three womens and both get trap in the trick of satan.. he use the same laws with negetive mode.. while God orders you positive mode.. ) thats just an example how he play with us we think we take our revenge by doing this but in the end we just wrong ourselves ..
when something bad happen to us , the stanic forces make us beleive that its God who do this to see the pain of human being becoz he let you think that God is responsible for the pain.. he also accuse God by himself in the case of adam that , my LORD you mislead me and i will mislead them...now..
he is our clear enemy we must treat him as enemy.. never let him overtake you.. in the end its you who will be responisble..
i know its a hard test/task/mission what humanity took becoz we dnt have weapons to fight with our enemy , devil the piece of shit is invisible too, and the things in which he leads us gives us pleasure for time being too like adultery, getting rich by unfair means etc etc
but even after knowing all this i have to complete this mission anyway.. same advice to you .. never let your enemy win so easily on you..
may God protect us from the sneaky whispers of evil
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Salam Imran,
let me ask you just one question it will change ur perception perhaps..
will you agree of giving ur 6 or 9 years daughter to 50 year old person who already have more than one wives?
the answer of this question will make you think in which point i m coming from...No, but cant you not see the difference between the age of your grandmother where they married in their 13s and 15s and now in early 20s. Such a difference in mentality could happen within decades, think about 100's and thousands of years back.
Anyway I am not believing the stories of Hadiths, we need to go back to the period of Mohammed to get the right idea and validity of these stories.i wonder what type of examples you are giving immorality is always consider as immorality regardless of time and technology
I agree, but not every case can be decided with man made laws, there will be exceptions, goodness could be measured relatively, ones goodness could be bad for others and not always good. Arranged marriage is still good for many in India and many in the west see it as bad, can it all be termed as forced marriage? People live happily generations following this adjusting with their partners, thats accepting reality and theres a lot of truth in it.
I have seen marriage between 40year old marrying a girl in her 20's for their second marriage after the first wife dies and each having many kids.
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Menstruation is something that happened,
HI Comrox.
Thank you so much for the help, I understand now. How does lam yahidna infer the above?