65:4 tense child marriage/pedophilia
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I see things differently, Ok now for example lets take a case of a girl aged 13, lost her parents, living in a desert community meager population, and now there are only some relatives of her in support for her, What do you think is the best for the girl, to be married or not? You take the role of a village leader to decide the future of the girl.
ok if ill be the village leader i will decide for her to complete her basic education first atleast higher secondary school .. usually girls complete it when they are 16 .. after that i ll ask her if she want to study more or shall i look a husband for her... if she want to study further then i ll do my best to get her the education whatever she want... and if she want to get married i ll look for her a suitable partner...
in case 2 if a 13 years old girl want to get married i ll look a husband for her... and for atleast two years i ll get them engage so that they know eachother before spending life together ... in this case girls is 15... (my own grandmother married when she was fifteen my gandfather was 19 at that time a perfect match )
in case number 3 if a girls is 6 or 9 years old and a 50 years old person want to get married with her.. then i ll bring the shotgun of my ansectors and perhaps shoot him infront of the whole village (only if i allowed to shoot by God ) voodoo but i think i ll not shoot him as its against my learning ... but i ll make him taste of humilation for demanding such sick wish...
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imrankhwaja they're are muslims and people who very proudly say muhammad had a 9 year old wife...
it makes me sick to my stomach.
and they're stupid arguments..."oh life expectancy was 30!"
well my that logic a 9 year old would marry a fellow 9 year old or MAXIMUN 13 year old..
pedophilia...the one thing that makes me lose faith in a merciful god. but.. its more complicated than that.
i think like it says in the quran, if muhammad married a 9 year old girl allah would have punished him, taken the revelations away from him.
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imrankhwaja they're are muslims and people who very proudly say muhammad had a 9 year old wife...
pedophilia...the one thing that makes me lose faith in a merciful god. but.. its more complicated than that.
forget about people/nations claims
different people claim different weird things about God and his messengers, like christianity, judiasm and islam.. along with hindus and buddists...but what i dnt understand is why your faith is so much weak ?
dnt you beleive in creator who is full of love and full of truth and logic...
do you beleive if some folks claim something and address it to God... will you turn back on your heels?
you must beleive there is not any immorality and illogical thing could be from God other wise he is not God... (thats what logic and mind says about God)peace and God bless you..
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problem of evil is bugging me lately...
faith is not constant. sometimes its strong, sometimes its weak. perhaps when allah is worried you may use your faith to do bad actions, he makes it weak. perhaps when he thinks you need it to be strong, he makes it strong. who knows what he does peace
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Baitachal,
Since no one else appears to be addressing the specific concerns you have, let me do some research for you and give it a shot. As a disclaimer, I could be totally wrong about all or any of this, since I've only looked into it today.
The word "lam yahidna" is in past tense, "women who did not menstruate" , plus the word "yet" is not in the Arabic, hence this proves it's not referring to child marriage.
However the word is also in jussive mood, meaning that she is expecting or it is coming. Hence they say addition of the word 'yet' is justified.
So that is linking to child marriage/pedophilia?Bold I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion, and that conclusion only.
According to the word-by-word analysis of 654 provided by Qur'an Corpus, after lam and next to yai'na, we read "3rd person feminine plural imperfect verb, jussive mood." This is what you're focusing on, yes?
There are a couple different moods for the imperfect in Arabic. The jussive form is one of them. You seem to know this.
As you mentioned, "the jussive form is used in past tense sentences negated by lam" (from the Arabic section of the wikipedia article on jussive mood). According to this site, the jussive with is used to negate (or nullify) the past tense verb. Lam is present in verse 654, as a negative particle. So it's used here to negate the verb - that a given woman does not menstruate. This site further explains that lam is one of the four jussive negative particles that acts on an imperfect verb and negates the past event/verb. So these women (the verse is specifically talking about women, nisa, here) did not menstruate ("...and the ones who not menstruate". Menstruation is something that happened, that could happen, but doesn't anymore (for these women).
The Quranic Path article on the subject suggests that the verse can be referring to women who have never menstruated at all, or gone periods of time without menstruating (a condition called amenorrhea). In addition, sometimes women have premature menopause. (And obviously, all women eventually go into menopause.)
There are more women who may not fall into this exact category but may have irregular menstruation, where they may not menstruate at the same time every month. According to Web MD, "often women with PCOS have fewer than nine periods a year. Some women have no periods." This is a woman who cannot expert a regular menstrual cycle. Many women are affected by PCOS. Supposedly, the syndrome "affects between 8% and 20% of reproductive-age women worldwide" (source).
Interestingly, I also read that Qur'anically (in classical Arabic), is a "weaker" negation than others, potentially meaning something that is still possible but does not happen (see here, post #2 or here, post #12). If this understanding is correct, then it would follow that young girls cannot be of marriageable age because menstruation is not possible for them.
Moving on to other parts of the verse, if we're talking about someone who has despaired or given up hope of menstruation (as spoken about in the beginning of 654), then that likely implies that they have had it before and are waiting for it to come again, but don't believe it will. The only other situation I can imagine where a female would "give up hope" of menstruation is when they are well beyond the age they should be getting menarche (their first period). While the average age for menarche is 12, a girl can get it anywhere between the ages of 8 and 15. So IMO, a girl can only truly "give up hope" of menstruation once she is well beyond the age of 15 with no sign of menstruation (and of course she should also see a doctor). But again, the verse is talking about women, not girls.
Lamma is the classical negative particle that would be used if you were specifically talking about something that has not happened yet (see here). Example in Qur'an 4914 "...you should say 'We have submitted', for belief has not yet entered into your hearts.'"
Even if the Arabic said "did not yet", since the subject is women, it could simply be referring to women who did not yet menstruated in the specific month. After all, a woman does not truly know that she is not pregnant until she has gotten her period - especially in those times. There may have been no way to know about a woman's pregnancy until she was a few months into it. Additionally, menstruation can be delayed for all sorts of reasons, so whether it isn't a woman's time of the month or if she is late at the time of separation, they need to wait because they won't know if she's pregnant or not, and that's important because if she is, she needs to be supported (whether it emotionally, physically, financially...).
Finally, since the verse speaks about doubt/uncertainty over a woman's menstrual cycle. So we have to wonder why is that? For most women, her biggest concern or thought that comes to her mind when she doesn't have her period is pregnancy. If a woman does not have her period, she should have the adequate time to rule out pregnancy.
Anyways, these are my thoughts on the matter.
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ok if ill be the village leader i will decide for her to complete her basic education first atleast higher secondary school .. usually girls complete it when they are 16 .. after that i ll ask her if she want to study more or shall i look a husband for her... if she want to study further then i ll do my best to get her the education whatever she want... and if she want to get married i ll look for her a suitable partner...
in case 2 if a 13 years old girl want to get married i ll look a husband for her... and for atleast two years i ll get them engage so that they know eachother before spending life together ... in this case girls is 15... (my own grandmother married when she was fifteen my gandfather was 19 at that time a perfect match )
in case number 3 if a girls is 6 or 9 years old and a 50 years old person want to get married with her.. then i ll bring the shotgun of my ansectors and perhaps shoot him infront of the whole village (only if i allowed to shoot by God ) voodoo but i think i ll not shoot him as its against my learning ... but i ll make him taste of humilation for demanding such sick wish...
Salaam Imran,
Still who is going to support her education even if education was available for a nomadic desert community?
In todays world war is uncommon and health care is improved but not long before such cases will be frequent, what do you think will happen to such girls without support,
In India there was a system of serving temples/kings and these girls will live there in support of the kingdoms money. Or in other parts of the world slavery was common. Dont you think marriage a better option then? Strange looking customs are there everywhere behind them there will be multiple reasons. My point is Teen marriage is common and fixing a marriage below the age of 10 and then couples made to wait for the right time was not a taboo long back atleast here. -
Salaam Imran,
Still who is going to support her education even if education was available for a nomadic desert community?
w salam amin,
obviously me as a village leader who else... muscle
about education and learning process it exist since adam till today everywhere , depend on the education for example 1400 years ago the person who know horse riding and swimming is known as literate... and teaching these things known as education process.. hope u got it
In todays world war is uncommon and health care is improved but not long before such cases will be frequent, what do you think will happen to such girls without support,
actually if you look the recent history of world
just in last 200 years the people died in wars are much more than the whole population of 7th century..
how many cases you see in which girl is getting married at 6 or 9?and just in recent wars like afghanistan, iraq , libya and syria how many people you see are getting their daughter married at age of 6 or 9 ..
let say as we agree on teen how many cases are there in these countires where a 13 years old get married ? even all these are muslim countries who blindly follow the tradition
i wonder what type of examples you are giving immorality is always consider as immorality regardless of time and technology
In India there was a system of serving temples/kings and these girls will live there in support of the kingdoms money. Or in other parts of the world slavery was common. Dont you think marriage a better option then? Strange looking customs are there everywhere behind them there will be multiple reasons.
slavery is always discouraged by the system of God long before muhammad the moses mission was to free the slaves from pharoah..
and its a criminal offence in india to get a child marriage , why?
i dnt beleive in multiple reasons , what if a women need a food for her kids and she make a reason for selling her body .. to getting food..
becoz with the same body we earn money by labour, art and craft, so why not use this body as a source of earning and giving pleasure to other males ? what is her status infront of God.. becoz by doing this she is earning money, feeding her kids, giving pleasure to males .. three good things she is doing by the body provided to her by God... whats ur position at this point?My point is Teen marriage is common and fixing a marriage below the age of 10 and then couples made to wait for the right time was not a taboo long back atleast here.
10 is not teen , teen started from the ending of thirteenth year...
and its also against the human nature to make a decision of their life forcefully .. in my point of view its a shirk becoz its only God who can decide the decisions regarding the life and death..
who are we to forcefully fix their marriage without asking their permission? are the kids are our salves? or we think just by a tiny drop of semen we become their masters so kids are our property.. no brother i disagree with you handshakelet me ask you just one question it will change ur perception perhaps..
will you agree of giving ur 6 or 9 years daughter to 50 year old person who already have more than one wives?
the answer of this question will make you think in which point i m coming from... -
problem of evil is bugging me lately...
faith is not constant. sometimes its strong, sometimes its weak. perhaps when allah is worried you may use your faith to do bad actions, he makes it weak. perhaps when he thinks you need it to be strong, he makes it strong. who knows what he does D D D peace
its happened with everybody its a human nature...
make sure the mission of devil is to put negetive ideas of things in our mind which may lead us towards darkness..
he and his clans see you from where you dnt see themeven in the mind the angels and satanic forces use the same medium for transferring thoughts and when you strong its mean angelic force overcome satanic force..
sometimes we let satanic force win , when things are attach with emotions and ego.. human being is a sensitive creation ..(example a wife cheats with hes husband, now the satan gives husband a thought of cheat her too, if she sleeps with one man you must have to sleep with three womens and both get trap in the trick of satan.. he use the same laws with negetive mode.. while God orders you positive mode.. ) thats just an example how he play with us we think we take our revenge by doing this but in the end we just wrong ourselves ..
when something bad happen to us , the stanic forces make us beleive that its God who do this to see the pain of human being becoz he let you think that God is responsible for the pain.. he also accuse God by himself in the case of adam that , my LORD you mislead me and i will mislead them...now..
he is our clear enemy we must treat him as enemy.. never let him overtake you.. in the end its you who will be responisble..
i know its a hard test/task/mission what humanity took becoz we dnt have weapons to fight with our enemy , devil the piece of shit is invisible too, and the things in which he leads us gives us pleasure for time being too like adultery, getting rich by unfair means etc etc
but even after knowing all this i have to complete this mission anyway.. same advice to you .. never let your enemy win so easily on you..
may God protect us from the sneaky whispers of evil
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Salam Imran,
let me ask you just one question it will change ur perception perhaps..
will you agree of giving ur 6 or 9 years daughter to 50 year old person who already have more than one wives?
the answer of this question will make you think in which point i m coming from...No, but cant you not see the difference between the age of your grandmother where they married in their 13s and 15s and now in early 20s. Such a difference in mentality could happen within decades, think about 100's and thousands of years back.
Anyway I am not believing the stories of Hadiths, we need to go back to the period of Mohammed to get the right idea and validity of these stories.i wonder what type of examples you are giving immorality is always consider as immorality regardless of time and technology
I agree, but not every case can be decided with man made laws, there will be exceptions, goodness could be measured relatively, ones goodness could be bad for others and not always good. Arranged marriage is still good for many in India and many in the west see it as bad, can it all be termed as forced marriage? People live happily generations following this adjusting with their partners, thats accepting reality and theres a lot of truth in it.
I have seen marriage between 40year old marrying a girl in her 20's for their second marriage after the first wife dies and each having many kids.
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Menstruation is something that happened,
HI Comrox.
Thank you so much for the help, I understand now. How does lam yahidna infer the above?
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Hi Baitachal, sometimes it's necessary to look at the broader picture to solve a problem. So lets look at the entire lifecycle of marriage.
I would start with consent.
Do you agree with the idea that consent is a good thing? If so, can you find the verse in the Quran that clearly states that consent of the women (not the guardian) is required.
419 often gets quoted. But that is a partial prohibition on the practice of inheriting women. i.e. when the father died the son would inherit his wives/concubines except his mother.
Then look at divorce.
Is there a verse in the Quran that clearly states that a women can initiate and complete a divorce.
Peace.
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the word muhsana means "with capacity of consent". The Qur'an orders to marry women by acknowledging them as muhsanaat. 4.24, 4.25 and others.
As to divorce, as stated in 2.228, women have the same prerrogatives and rights as those that might be exiercised with respect to them.
Salaam
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the word muhsana means "with capacity of consent". The Qur'an orders to marry women by acknowledging them as muhsanaat. 4.24, 4.25 and others.
Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"As to divorce, as stated in 2.228, women have the same prerrogatives and rights as those that might be exiercised with respect to them.
This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.
A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "peace.
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Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.
A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "peace.
YOur translation of muhsana does not fit in all cases and it does not make sense to translate here so and there so, and I did not say or mean capacity of conbsent but a woman with capacity of consent.
In fact most translators trnaslate by several terms and not the same everyhere. like something as disparate as married woman and indeendent woman and then honest woman and then many things.
You seem to have taken for granted all the nonsense all the convenient arrangements of "scholars" and you have not looked at it properly.
5.5.
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (5)
Is it not rather silly to point out that they can only marry chaste women? Which men look around in order to marry unchaste women? And on the other hand, the Qur'an is clear everywhere, for chaste menand for chaste women chaste men. Nowhere it is forbiden marriage to the unchaste.
You invent or you copy without any critical mind on what you read int he orginal Qur'an.
And it seems that that fits wonderfully in your anti islamic outlook.
That you want the Qur'an to be filth, does not make it so.
Salaam
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419 often gets quoted. But that is a partial prohibition on the practice of inheriting women. i.e. when the father died the son would inherit his wives/concubines except his mother.
show which word/s is red part you wrote above?
419 O you the ones believes ye of not lawful for you that thou inherit/receive ye of the womenfolk averse of and not thou hinder ye them that may take ye of in part what have given ye them except that approach in immorality clear and live with them in the fair manner so if disliked ye them so perhaps that disliked ye of thing of and maketh the god in it superior much of
422 and not thou marry ye of who married/had sex fathers yours from the womenfolk except what hence passed surely it be immorality and abhorrence of and an evil path of
423 urrimat/unlawful... and cohabitants sons yours the ones from loins yours and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed indeed the god be forgiver of merciful ofIs there a verse in the Quran that clearly states that a women can initiate and complete a divorce.
show which part of word/s means "he" ....?
2230 so if allaqah/divorce (f) so not lawful for him from after until she marry spouse of other than him ...
in context to whom is this address?
665 perhaps lord his if allaqakunna/divorce you (f/p) that changed for him spouses of superior of from you ...
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I've searched all over the Internet and while they're many claims that make sense saying this refers to women with irregular stops. but no one can disprove that this also means a young girl (because of the jussive meaning that it intends!!). Does this jussive term apply always?
Claim "no one can disprove that this also means a young girl"
Whether it can be disproved or not will depend on your method of understanding Quran. For example, let's say you are trying to interpret one verse and you determine there are 2 theoretically possible meanings.
The Quran is not one verse, it is a whole book of many verses. Thus, one will have to analyse other verses that discuss the same (or similar) subject to see if the possible options can be narrowed down.
Info in my original post in this thread.
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Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.
A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "peace.
And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.But if they separate , Allah will enrich each from His abundance. And ever is Allah Encompassing and Wise.4129-130
Some things are self explanatory. Otherwise, it is lawful for women to eat pork -\
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And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.But if they separate , Allah will enrich each from His abundance. And ever is Allah Encompassing and Wise.4129-130
The complete passage is 4127-130. Again, the verses simply say two people can stay together (encouraged) or separate (allowed). I am not arguing that.
My question is can a women divorce her husband. Does the concept of "divorced man" even exist in the Quran.
All the verses about divorce are worded as an action done to women by men.
tallaqtumu alnnisaa 2231, 2232, 2236, 651. "you divorce women"
alilmutallaqati 2228, 2241 "divorced-women"
Language is important ... don't you agree.
You will not see the expression "divorced men" anywhere. Just like dowry it is something given to and received by the woman alone. Women can only ask for divorce.
Some things are self explanatory. Otherwise, it is lawful for women to eat pork -\
Yes with enough mental and linguistic gymnastics many have made pork halal.
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peace all,
Yes with enough mental and linguistic gymnastics many have made pork halal.
I think reel is referring to that prohibition command being addressed in the masculine, but we all take it as applying to both male and female. The masculine address can include both male and female of course.
I'm not sure why the topic moved onto divorce but burhan is right, there is no talaq/divorce done by women to men in Quran. You can read about the divorce procedure as per Quran here
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3If a woman wanted divorce she can ask her husband to divorce her, but if the husband does not divorce her, she can inform the authority herself and request a release from marriage. Whilst different words are used the procedure is actually the same for both men/women, as the husband would also have to notify the authority if he wished to divorce.
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Although the translations of aya 2.228 are usually a real mess, nevertheless it does not offer any doubt that it says that whatever is done to women or exacted from them, they can equally do in their turn it is a categorical and general statement and quite plain
And due to women is the like of what is due from them
Salaam
